Ethical Dilemma

[CetiAlphaFive]

---

Members do not see this ad.

So many LOLs in that post and you want to focus on the lawyers?

Loll a lolctor, I'm hazing a loke

 

[Dred Pirate]

I'm not sure what you're curious about? You think a person being fired should be an ok reason not to give them an interview? It's not like you are hiring them

ya I do, in today's environment the balance is shifted to the employer vs the employee - if someone has been fired, most of the time they did something to deserve it (obviously that issue/behavior could be resolved) but with 30 other people who don't have that baggage, why risk it?

 

[johnpharm01]

ya I do, in today's environment the balance is shifted to the employer vs the employee - if someone has been fired, most of the time they did something to deserve it (obviously that issue/behavior could be resolved) but with 30 other people who don't have that baggage, why risk it?

If I was an employer, I would still interview a person who was fired. I may hire them. It would depend on the specifics. I would give them credit for their honesty. Then I would judge them by their actions.
Why?
1. All firings aren't appropriate sometimes people get fired for stupid/illegal reasons i.e. Wells Fargo....
2. Sometimes the employees who should have gotten fired and didn't. I have seen this with errors within the pharmacy on multiple occasions.
3. Maybe the person deserved to get fired, but made a mistake and has corrected their behavior. This maybe the hardest working and most grateful employee

 

[Apotheker2015]

If I was an employer, I would still interview a person who was fired. I may hire them. It would depend on the specifics. I would give them credit for their honesty. Then I would judge them by their actions.
Why?
1. All firings aren't appropriate sometimes people get fired for stupid/illegal reasons i.e. Wells Fargo....
2. Sometimes the employees who should have gotten fired and didn't. I have seen this with errors within the pharmacy on multiple occasions.
3. Maybe the person deserved to get fired, but made a mistake and has corrected their behavior. This maybe the hardest working and most grateful employee

We ought to remember that pharmacists are no longer the commodities we used to be. I beg to disagree with people deserving to be fired most of the time. Even someone who does something as serious as stealing a controlled substance, that person gets a second chance and goes to rehab if they admit they have a dependency issue. The current state of saturation is causing employers to feel they have the upper hand. They're playing games with hours, benefits, and treating pharmacists poorly. This may not be the case for those protected by the thick walls of health care institutions but in retail, the abuse is getting worse by the minute. So yes, they start getting to you with petty $hit until the day you bite them back so hard that you inevitably lose the upper hand because of it. Every time I've been in the hot seat, it's never been for poor performance or a patient's complaint or an error, it's always been petty bull$****. Saturation has definitely made it worse.

 

[rph3664]

I live in loserville (South Florida) so maybe what I see is not typical, but I kinda agree with John that nowadays firing pharmacists seems to be a popular sport. Maybe they can put it in the winter olympics. But I think getting fired as a pharmacist nowadays gives you the same chance of getting reemployed as Jared at Subway. I don't see why recruiters would be salivating over a thoroughly chewed piece of gum. Technicians though I feel is a different story. Job-hopping, multiple past terminations, and maybe one or two criminal convictions and you are a shoo-in.

Don't forget about body piercings and tattoos! 😕

In 2010, I was fired from a job I thought I would retire from, most likely due to falsified reports, and while I'm not glad it happened, I know now that in the long run, it was for the best. 🙁

 

[Stella14]

Rph 3364. What happened after you got fired? Did you find another pharmacy job? What are you doing


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile

 

[wagrxm2000]

ya I do, in today's environment the balance is shifted to the employer vs the employee - if someone has been fired, most of the time they did something to deserve it (obviously that issue/behavior could be resolved) but with 30 other people who don't have that baggage, why risk it?

What are you risking? What if they tell you the truth and it wasnt anything concerning. You could even call and confirm.

Someone might have been fired for not following a ridiculous policy. Heck I break them all the time and I'd be your best employee.

 

[Dred Pirate]

What are you risking? What if they tell you the truth and it wasnt anything concerning. You could even call and confirm.

Someone might have been fired for not following a ridiculous policy. Heck I break them all the time and I'd be your best employee.

there would have to be something that sets them apart above the 30-50 other applicants I get for each job. If they had an impressive resume that looked like the firing could have been an outlier, I might take a swing - but if I have 5 other applicants all with solid resumes who had not been fired, I will pass, Time is valuable and I don't want to waste it. just my two cents worth

 

[wagrxm2000]

there would have to be something that sets them apart above the 30-50 other applicants I get for each job. If they had an impressive resume that looked like the firing could have been an outlier, I might take a swing - but if I have 5 other applicants all with solid resumes who had not been fired, I will pass, Time is valuable and I don't want to waste it. just my two cents worth

This is horrible.... But who cares right?

 

[owlegrad]

This is horrible.... But who cares right?

I am surprised you are so forgiving. Think of any techs you have fired. How many of them do you think went on to be star employees somewhere else?

Do good employees get fired? Sure. If you are screening people do you consider their employment history, including terminations? Sure. To think it doesn’t matter at all is silly.

 

[owlegrad]

Also calling and confirming is basically impossible. Only an idiot manager would tell you anything other than ‘contact HR’ and all you are going to get is basic employment info like dates and pay rate.

 

[SELDANE]

Also calling and confirming is basically impossible. Only an idiot manager would tell you anything other than ‘contact HR’ and all you are going to get is basic employment info like dates and pay rate.

When I managed a pharmacy and I received a call from a potential pharmacy employer about a former employee my silence after a question about their performance or a deflection to HR usually answered any questions about the said employee's performance.

 

[gwarm01]

ya I do, in today's environment the balance is shifted to the employer vs the employee - if someone has been fired, most of the time they did something to deserve it (obviously that issue/behavior could be resolved) but with 30 other people who don't have that baggage, why risk it?

You're giving me flashbacks to the immediate post-recession and the attitude of "you are lucky to have a job."

The sad thing is you are absolutely right. Pharmacy as at that point right now. Overall wages are rising and unemployment is at record lows, but pharmacy has saturated itself into great recession levels.

While we're reminiscing, who else remembers being pissed off at hearing the "you are lucky to have a job" line when we were well into recovery and companies had record profits?

 

[wagrxm2000]

I am surprised you are so forgiving. Think of any techs you have fired. How many of them do you think went on to be star employees somewhere else?

Do good employees get fired? Sure. If you are screening people do you consider their employment history, including terminations? Sure. To think it doesn’t matter at all is silly.

I never said hire the person, just give them a chance.

Also calling and confirming is basically impossible. Only an idiot manager would tell you anything other than ‘contact HR’ and all you are going to get is basic employment info like dates and pay rate.

I guess references are pointless.

 

[johnpharm01]

I remember that. Who really likes to be bullied and manipulated by an employer?

 

[johnpharm01]

there would have to be something that sets them apart above the 30-50 other applicants I get for each job. If they had an impressive resume that looked like the firing could have been an outlier, I might take a swing - but if I have 5 other applicants all with solid resumes who had not been fired, I will pass, Time is valuable and I don't want to waste it. just my two cents worth

For what kind of position do you see this many applicants?

 

[owlegrad]

I never said hire the person, just give them a chance.



I guess references are pointless.

I guess if you list someone who fired you as a reference they might be willing to share more than the HR standard reply? I wouldn't know but somehow I doubt it happens very often.

Although on a side note I do think references are pointless. The vast majority are just people you know who will say something nice about you. Is the point to prove you know people? How many references are actually in any way relevant?

 

[Stella14]

As far as references . I had to give 5 for a hospital job and 2 of them had to be management, plus do a video interview BEFORE I even got a face to face interview. Yes, they contacted the references before hand and no I did not get the face to face in this case. Waste of my references time. However , you have to do what these places want in order to get the job .

I currently hold an overnight hospital position ( career overnighter) 11.5 hour shifts covering 3 hospitals and 30-35 people applied.

One rph complained about unfair scheduling and HR told her if she didn’t like it she could look elsewhere and that they have no problem hiring pharmacists . I am in Chicago market so no jobs unless you are a specialist and even then not a lot of positions. These companies are getting away with tons now bc people here are afraid of unemployment. Very sad times.


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile

 

[johnpharm01]

As far as references . I had to give 5 for a hospital job and 2 of them had to be management, plus do a video interview BEFORE I even got a face to face interview. Yes, they contacted the references before hand and no I did not get the face to face in this case. Waste of my references time. However , you have to do what these places want in order to get the job .

I currently hold an overnight hospital position ( career overnighter) 11.5 hour shifts covering 3 hospitals and 30-35 people applied.

One rph complained about unfair scheduling and HR told her if she didn’t like it she could look elsewhere and that they have no problem hiring pharmacists . I am in Chicago market so no jobs unless you are a specialist and even then not a lot of positions. These companies are getting away with tons now bc people here are afraid of unemployment. Very sad times.


Its beyond sad. And whats funny is that in this same forum, in different threads, are people going to pharmacy school investing 100's of thousands of $ and then in another are happy getting 30 hours a week floating at a major chain. When did pharmacy lose all common sense?

 

[BidingMyTime]

For what kind of position do you see this many applicants?

Like Stella said, any pharmacy in Chicago. A retail pharmacy probably would get a 100 applicants. A hospital, probably 500.

This reminds me about that JoeyBear gal who wants to go to pharmacy school but only if she can go to a distance school, because she can't ever move out of Chicago. She is delusional about the job markets. There are still jobs for pharmacists, but not in Chicago.

 

[Dred Pirate]

For what kind of position do you see this many applicants?

hospital job (we are a blended model - last I heard we had 90 applicants with active applications - 1 FT and 1 PT open position)

 

[Dred Pirate]

This is horrible.... But who cares right?

why is this horrible? If I have somebody with an equal or better resume who hasn't been fired, why would I interview them over someone who hasn't? I said if their credentials are better I would consider it, but not if they are not or equal

 

[johnpharm01]

why is this horrible? If I have somebody with an equal or better resume who hasn't been fired, why would I interview them over someone who hasn't? I said if their credentials are better I would consider it, but not if they are not or equal

This is the typical hiring process. But I have worked at jobs where the hiring official was wowed by the candidate and then the new employee turned out to be extremely lazy or disruptive to getting the job done. I have also worked in places where there were employees that should have been disciplined, including terminated, but never were. An effective manager makes good hires. I am interviewing now and some of the questions the interviewers ask make me laugh. You can tell they have had problems with employees being late, being inflexible, not being amenable to direction. I guess if I was hiring, I would try to evaluate work quality and basic work skills and avoid the image game. Being fired may actually reflect the employee or may not.

 

[wagrxm2000]

why is this horrible? If I have somebody with an equal or better resume who hasn't been fired, why would I interview them over someone who hasn't? I said if their credentials are better I would consider it, but not if they are not or equal

See this guys response

This is the typical hiring process. But I have worked at jobs where the hiring official was wowed by the candidate and then the new employee turned out to be extremely lazy or disruptive to getting the job done. I have also worked in places where there were employees that should have been disciplined, including terminated, but never were. An effective manager makes good hires. I am interviewing now and some of the questions the interviewers ask make me laugh. You can tell they have had problems with employees being late, being inflexible, not being amenable to direction. I guess if I was hiring, I would try to evaluate work quality and basic work skills and avoid the image game. Being fired may actually reflect the employee or may not.

A resume tells you absolutely nothing about a candidate except that they know what they need to have on their resume.

I've always said, I'll take a hard worker over the smartest candidate everytime. A person could have been fired for so many reasons that have nothing to do with what kind of worker they are.

 

[Modest_anteater]

Advice ... I have been a pharmacist for 24 years now. Practiced in a wide variety of settings, so well rounded resume wise.
However , I was terminated for 1st time ever last May from a job that I held for 8 months due to not being a good cultural fit? I think someone had it out for me bc they found out I was making more money than them. Either way I was put on performance improvement plan for stupid stuff like not picking up phone as fast or as often as my peers ( ridiculous) and other weirdness. I never had been fired and thought I would get off of PIP. Well I didn’t and took termination to get unemployment that I only used a couple of weeks and then got prn hospital job and then another full time hospital job .
Long story short , current job is hell and unsustainable ( 11.5 hour nights verifying for 3 hospitals ) . Starting to apply for other positions ,but these employers are getting very specific on their online applications.
They are asking have you ever been asked to leave, involuntarily terminated, on a PIP, etc. some you can give a reason and others it’s just checking a box . I fear if I check the box I will not get an interview , however I was told to never lie in writing on an app. Market is so bad what are people doing?

I did collect unemployment for a few weeks so I received a 1099-G. If I lied on app and they did financial background check would this come up?

Advice


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile

Sorry to hear about your story. Usually when someone is put on PIP the execution has already been planned with upper management and it's just a way to mitigate possible wrongful termination lawsuits. As for your current state i'm guessing you are older so you are at a disadvantage due to age discrimination (which happens a lot in this field now). I would absolutely not lie but be economical with the truth when being asked about being fired/terminated. I would not check the PIP box because I would consider that question unethical and therefore invalid.

 

[Modest_anteater]

To be honest with you I have a Pharm D and graduated in the upper 15% of my class which was number 5 in the country at the time . I scored in the 96% on Naplex and 98% in law. This is when you could only take exam once a year so you competed against the entire country. I went to midyear and was burnt out so thought I would go back and do a residency . Life happened. Got spooked with the student loan situation , since I left Home at 17 and put myself through undergrad and Pharmacy school so went to work for Walgreens. Was there 19.5 years (11 as a pharmacist ) . Got disgusted when new grads, etc crossed the picket line in 2005 so a bunch of us left. At that time you couldn’t apply to hospital unless you had a year of hospital experience as a pharmacist . Well how the hell does that happen ? I got into LTC then into hospital , then 8 years at Peds hospital and now back into adult to make myself more marketable bc more adult hospitals than Peds and I don’t have a residency . I built whatever left of a career the hard way . Enough of that explanation.

Life happens I got married and paid for my own wedding and house. $$$
Unfortunately breadwinner so when I got divorced there went $$$.
Student loans $$
Failed IVF$$
Lost money on sale of house $$
Just had to sell another house for loss bc of having to move for this crazy job I currently have. $$$ Better than zero job .
Cobra $500/month
Single ... no inheritances or living with my parents to save money or someone paying for anything.
Couple of surgeries/illness $$$

I’m not old enough to retire and no one is leaving me anything. I wish I had a house that was paid off or an apartment building but I don’t and unfortunately I don’t have an exit strategy.
Hence the freaking out. I’m now in an apartment that’s as much as my mortgage and taxes were bc I had to move for a job . Yes, freaking out.

Life did not work out the way I thought it would . If I was married I could possibly work part time or go back to school or who knows. That’s not the situation .
I had fun while it lasted, traveled , bought cars , nothing insanely crazy .
I have retirement ( not enough to get me to Social security /Medicare ...no pension ... but I’m not even 50. Most of us planned on at least working until 60.

Just sharing my crazy life bc this MIGHT be helpful to others...


As far as people getting laid off and fired I have been seeing an alarming trend in Pharmacy.
10 -15 years ago you got fired mostly bc of incompetence or politics.
Like I said I made it 23 years without a problem and have reinvented myself several times . Last 5 years I hear about people getting laid off or fired A LOT more. Companies /hospital systems are combining , retail now thinks people over 40 are old and crooked stuff is happening . There are a lot of unemployed and underemployed pharmacists.

I’m just trying to survive as long as I can. With the oversupply of pharmacists I really don’t think my application is going to get past electronic screening if I check that box . I wish I could experiment and see if it does , but it’s brutal in/near Chicago.

I guess when we graduated we thought we’d have a long career 30-40 years so we didn’t plan as well as you are. But, I would be severely depressed and scared ****less graduating now and owing $250,000 for school and hoping to get 10-15 years as a pharmacist like you guys have to face today.
Things are getting really bad out there, just saying.


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile

Failed IVF$$

Sorry to hear this. Very painful experience.

 

[Modest_anteater]

Not true at all. It can be really easy to get fired, whether you’re new or have been working for a company for years. And this is from experience and having worked in more pharmacies than you can shake a stick at.

1. If you are new and you don’t fit in. They can easily get rid of you for any reason. In private and government.

2. I floated as a pharmacist in South Florida, in Miami and Fort Lauderdale between 2007 and 2011 full time. CVS was getting rid of the older pharmacists (15 or 20 plus years). I was friendly with 2 older pharmacists and told them to watch out because they are getting rid of older pharmacists. Pharmacist A said he was ok because he had been with the company for 15 years and shook it off, believing he was untouchable. Pharmacist B, also an excellent pharmacist said, after I warned him about what was going on, that the pharmacists getting fired must have done something wrong.

Within a year, both A and B were gone. When you say that it is difficult to get fired, you remind me so much of those pharmacists. I can only laugh when I hear people like you say this. Lol

They can get rid of you for any reason, a coupon done wrong, asking you to take on a different store, move to a different location, give you less help and force you out. The number of ways to get rid of a person are infinite. They can even slow your computer down and say you check too slow. What you hear now might seem unbelievable. But what is unbelievable becomes believable when you experience it.

As for coming in late.... lol and real reasons... lmfao pffft, There are techs that come in late everyday, and they’ve been around for years.

And as for a poor attitude or work ethic? Seriously? When I hear this I am reminded of people who believe an A+ student will get a better job than a C+ student. You can have a poor attitude, a poor work ethic and be lazy and still hold your job if you are friends with the right people. This happens in every field. Hello!!! It’s who you know not what you know.

Lol. It’s not easy to get fired? Just look at the Trump administration. Lol Did the people he fire really deserve to be fired?

Exactly. If a pharmacy wants you fired they will find a way. I was legit terminated from my last job because they said I was speeding in the company parking lot on my way off from work. When I challenged them they said they could judge my speed the the height of my car going over the speed bump. Truth is they just didn't like me and wanted me out. I suspect companies will do this with older workers that are earning too much even though it's very illegal. Hard to prove!

 

[Modest_anteater]

I guess if you list someone who fired you as a reference they might be willing to share more than the HR standard reply? I wouldn't know but somehow I doubt it happens very often.

Although on a side note I do think references are pointless. The vast majority are just people you know who will say something nice about you. Is the point to prove you know people? How many references are actually in any way relevant?

I don't think former managers can say anything negative about a former employee. It opens them up to slander and most likely violates company policy. The worst they can say about an employee is nothing?

 

[Stella14]

I was told that HR is not supposed to give details, but who knows people make mistakes. If it is a manager they are supposed to refer people to HR unless you are using them as a reference. I’m less worried about that then the fact of not getting through the screening process with the online applications bc you checked that box . Unfortunately , I would love to be truthful but can’t risk it in this climate . However , Pharmacy is a small world and rumors get out or someone knows someone, etc.
In fact at current ( new ) job 5 months there is a prn tech that is also a full time tech at place I got terminated from. I nearly died bc she has a big mouth and was worried about her telling current staff. I told her I left and gave some reasons why and she didn’t let on that she knows anything, so I don’t think management said anything or she’s keeping quiet. Not sure.


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile

 

[wagrxm2000]

Exactly. If a pharmacy wants you fired they will find a way. I was legit terminated from my last job because they said I was speeding in the company parking lot on my way off from work. When I challenged them they said they could judge my speed the the height of my car going over the speed bump. Truth is they just didn't like me and wanted me out. I suspect companies will do this with older workers that are earning too much even though it's very illegal. Hard to prove!

Hmm I wonder why people don't like you.....

 

[Modest_anteater]

Hmm I wonder why people don't like you.....

My son taught me how to use reddit. How do i thumbs down this post? i can't find the button like it is on Reddit.com

 

[Robbin]

Yes, understand this issue. But maybe if they get to know about the past job, they will think about the experience you had and will give you a chance to express your part what actually had happened.

 

[Sabril]

why is this horrible? If I have somebody with an equal or better resume who hasn't been fired, why would I interview them over someone who hasn't? I said if their credentials are better I would consider it, but not if they are not or equal

how does the application process in a hospital usually work? Do all applications go directly to you? I would imagine that there is some sort of computerized process to eliminate people, in which case checking the "I have been fired" box would keep your application from ever being reviewed by an actual person.

I am interviewing now and some of the questions the interviewers ask make me laugh. You can tell they have had problems with employees being late, being inflexible, not being amenable to direction.

I don't know. Everybody is so angelic at the time of the interview. It takes time for them to show their true colors. The interview seems pointless at times. Sometimes when I have to interview people, I just wanna wrap it up and ask them if they are allowed to be within 200 feet from a Chuck E. Cheese's because we are closed to one.

 

[Dred Pirate]

how does the application process in a hospital usually work? Do all applications go directly to you? I would imagine that there is some sort of computerized process to eliminate people, in which case checking the "I have been fired" box would keep your application from ever being reviewed by an actual person.



I don't know. Everybody is so angelic at the time of the interview. It takes time for them to show their true colors. The interview seems pointless at times. Sometimes when I have to interview people, I just wanna wrap it up and ask them if they are allowed to be within 200 feet from a Chuck E. Cheese's because we are closed to one.

Hr does an initial screen (pharmacy mgmt can then set up certain criteria that we can allow a resume to "pass through") for example - HR might screen out anybody without hospital experience x 10 years, but if we will let a resident pass through). The "have I been fired" question may or may not be an auto disqualifier. I only come in on the interview process after HR and the hiring manager approve. I interview both techs and rph's (I do not make a final discussion - but have varying levels of input).

And I agree with your second comment - in a 2 hour interview you only get a small picture - some great interviews turn out to be disasters, and other questionable interviews turn out great - that is why we have a 90 day probation period - although rare, there are cases were we let people go at their 90 day eval.

 

[BidingMyTime]

how does the application process in a hospital usually work? Do all applications go directly to you? I would imagine that there is some sort of computerized process to eliminate people, in which case checking the "I have been fired" box would keep your application from ever being reviewed by an actual person.

At my hospital, HR screens all the applicants before the director ever sees them. Even the director isn't really sure what they screen for (other than obviously stuff like techs applying for a pharmacist job, etc.) Of course, if you are best friends with the director, or another pharmacist there who will vouch for you, then the director will mosey on up to human resources and make sure he gets your application.

 

[Son_Goku]

So you think most people in the general public have been fired? That’s a statistic I would be interested in seeing. I suspect the vast majority of people have never been fired, although who knows, maybe I am totally wrong.

America is called the land of second chances.

You think we'd have this reputation if people weren't constantly screwing up?

 

[johnpharm01]

At my hospital, HR screens all the applicants before the director ever sees them. Even the director isn't really sure what they screen for (other than obviously stuff like techs applying for a pharmacist job, etc.) Of course, if you are best friends with the director, or another pharmacist there who will vouch for you, then the director will mosey on up to human resources and make sure he gets your application.

I can believe this because I have seen this. The shops that hire their friends and family are some of the worst ones to work for. The management has already lost their objectivity and is making their personnel decisions personally. It doesn't have to be a small business either.

 

[Stella14]

Well I applied for the LTC job and didn’t check the box . It’s been a week and I haven’t heard anything . Might get job blocked bc too much experience and might think I wouldn’t take a pay cut. Which I would!
The stuff I am doing is insane . This was just my third night on and it feels like day 6 (11.5 hour shifts covering 3 hospitals ). Please pray I don’t have a break down . I got to go to the bathroom once from 11:30pm until 7 am . Didn’t get to eat a snack until 7 am and I get there at 8 pm. Several times I had to stop myself from walking out .
Prayers please . Anyone know of overnight job in decent weather I’m ready , pass on the word!


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile

 

[johnpharm01]

Well I applied for the LTC job and didn’t check the box . It’s been a week and I haven’t heard anything . Might get job blocked bc too much experience and might think I wouldn’t take a pay cut. Which I would!
The stuff I am doing is insane . This was just my third night on and it feels like day 6 (11.5 hour shifts covering 3 hospitals ). Please pray I don’t have a break down . I got to go to the bathroom once from 11:30pm until 7 am . Didn’t get to eat a snack until 7 am and I get there at 8 pm. Several times I had to stop myself from walking out .
Prayers please . Anyone know of overnight job in decent weather I’m ready , pass on the word!


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile

Good luck.