Ethical Dilemma

[Stella14]

Advice ... I have been a pharmacist for 24 years now. Practiced in a wide variety of settings, so well rounded resume wise.
However , I was terminated for 1st time ever last May from a job that I held for 8 months due to not being a good cultural fit? I think someone had it out for me bc they found out I was making more money than them. Either way I was put on performance improvement plan for stupid stuff like not picking up phone as fast or as often as my peers ( ridiculous) and other weirdness. I never had been fired and thought I would get off of PIP. Well I didn’t and took termination to get unemployment that I only used a couple of weeks and then got prn hospital job and then another full time hospital job .
Long story short , current job is hell and unsustainable ( 11.5 hour nights verifying for 3 hospitals ) . Starting to apply for other positions ,but these employers are getting very specific on their online applications.
They are asking have you ever been asked to leave, involuntarily terminated, on a PIP, etc. some you can give a reason and others it’s just checking a box . I fear if I check the box I will not get an interview , however I was told to never lie in writing on an app. Market is so bad what are people doing?

I did collect unemployment for a few weeks so I received a 1099-G. If I lied on app and they did financial background check would this come up?

Advice


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[BigBoss]

If they did a financial credit check, all they would see is that you've collected unemployment. They wouldn't know the reason though. The decision is yours OP.

 

[johnpharm01]

Advice ... I have been a pharmacist for 24 years now. Practiced in a wide variety of settings, so well rounded resume wise.
However , I was terminated for 1st time ever last May from a job that I held for 8 months due to not being a good cultural fit? I think someone had it out for me bc they found out I was making more money than them. Either way I was put on performance improvement plan for stupid stuff like not picking up phone as fast or as often as my peers ( ridiculous) and other weirdness. I never had been fired and thought I would get off of PIP. Well I didn’t and took termination to get unemployment that I only used a couple of weeks and then got prn hospital job and then another full time hospital job .
Long story short , current job is hell and unsustainable ( 11.5 hour nights verifying for 3 hospitals ) . Starting to apply for other positions ,but these employers are getting very specific on their online applications.
They are asking have you ever been asked to leave, involuntarily terminated, on a PIP, etc. some you can give a reason and others it’s just checking a box . I fear if I check the box I will not get an interview , however I was told to never lie in writing on an app. Market is so bad what are people doing?

I did collect unemployment for a few weeks so I received a 1099-G. If I lied on app and they did financial background check would this come up?

Advice


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Do what i do and have been done: tell the truth. It is uncommon not to be fired and employers know what the pharmacist market is like, that some terminations are unfair, etc. I prefer to get hired and not have to worry about being fired later on for lying on the application if it comes out somehow. Integrity is crucial in our business. Most people however probably lie and it may hurt your application chances.

 

[owlegrad]

It is uncommon not to be fired...

I agree with your ‘be honest’ advice but you have to be kidding, right? You think many or most pharmacists have been fired at some point?

 

[johnpharm01]

I agree with your ‘be honest’ advice but you have to be kidding, right? You think many or most pharmacists have been fired at some point?

Before I was speaking in general. However, I think many pharmacists have been fired, asked to resign, left before being fired, or left on mutual agreement with employer. Truth is being a pharmacist is not much different then other occupations. Have to go to school, get a license, and have additional responsibility but otherwise much the same.

 

[owlegrad]

Before I was speaking in general. However, I think many pharmacists have been fired, asked to resign, left before being fired, or left on mutual agreement with employer. Truth is being a pharmacist is not much different then other occupations. Have to go to school, get a license, and have additional responsibility but otherwise much the same.

So you think most people in the general public have been fired? That’s a statistic I would be interested in seeing. I suspect the vast majority of people have never been fired, although who knows, maybe I am totally wrong.

 

[wagrxm2000]

I would go as far as saying very few pharmacists have been fired like less then 10% and that might actually be high. From all the pharmacist I've met in my area over the years, it's way lower.

I recommend lying or you may find it hard to get interviews. There's already a ton of new grads, why make it harder on yourself?

 

[johnpharm01]

I would go as far as saying very few pharmacists have been fired like less then 10% and that might actually be high. From all the pharmacist I've met in my area over the years, it's way lower.

I recommend lying or you may find it hard to get interviews. There's already a ton of new grads, why make it harder on yourself?

This I find difficult to believe. At Wags saw

1 One Rph fired for repeated customer service complaints
2. Another rph fired for a routine customer service complaint
3. Another 2 rphs fired for excessive errors
4. Another rph fired for sleeping on overnights
5. another rph fired for no clear reaso6. another rph fired for a hippa violation

Wags is a revolving door

 

[Apotheker2015]

Advice ... I have been a pharmacist for 24 years now. Practiced in a wide variety of settings, so well rounded resume wise.
However , I was terminated for 1st time ever last May from a job that I held for 8 months due to not being a good cultural fit? I think someone had it out for me bc they found out I was making more money than them. Either way I was put on performance improvement plan for stupid stuff like not picking up phone as fast or as often as my peers ( ridiculous) and other weirdness. I never had been fired and thought I would get off of PIP. Well I didn’t and took termination to get unemployment that I only used a couple of weeks and then got prn hospital job and then another full time hospital job .
Long story short , current job is hell and unsustainable ( 11.5 hour nights verifying for 3 hospitals ) . Starting to apply for other positions ,but these employers are getting very specific on their online applications.
They are asking have you ever been asked to leave, involuntarily terminated, on a PIP, etc. some you can give a reason and others it’s just checking a box . I fear if I check the box I will not get an interview , however I was told to never lie in writing on an app. Market is so bad what are people doing?

I did collect unemployment for a few weeks so I received a 1099-G. If I lied on app and they did financial background check would this come up?

Advice

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I mean no disrespect but if you've been a pharmacist for 24 years, that means you have a bachelor of science in pharmacy and zero student loans. Got grandfathered into the 6-figure salary and likely secured a sign-on bonus once or twice. Why are you still on the hamster wheel?

You also shouldn't be telling anyone at work how much you make. That's never a good idea. It never ends well.

I read some of your previous posts. Good riddance. It sounds like you were in a very dysfunctional environment. I don't care if I get cr@p for saying this but way too much estrogen. All that back and forth. Someone got offended because you said Epic vs Cerner. That's all petty high school girl stuff. Be glad you aren't there anymore.

I am taking steps to minimize the time I have to spend on this hamster wheel. 24 years? Tell me you have a plan to get out. No disrespect. I am challenging you to stop for a moment and ask yourself why. Why aren't you enjoying a simple life and living off your investments in Nicaragua or Costa Rica or thailand?

 

[BidingMyTime]

I am taking steps to minimize the time I have to spend on this hamster wheel. 24 years? Tell me you have a plan to get out. No disrespect. I am challenging you to stop for a moment and ask yourself why. Why aren't you enjoying a simple life and living off your investments in Nicaragua or Costa Rica or thailand?

1) because my generation was stupid and didn't realize we would get old or that the golden years of pharmacy wouldn't last forever

and/or

2) we are the sandwich generation stuck supporting our parents who didn't save anything for their retirement, as well as helping our children through overpriced colleges. Meaning, we have little to save for our own retirement.

For all you youngsters expecting "older" pharmacists to retire, it isn't going to happen.

So you think most people in the general public have been fired? That’s a statistic I would be interested in seeing. I suspect the vast majority of people have never been fired, although who knows, maybe I am totally wrong.

Yeah, maybe it's just the people I hang out with, but most pharmacists I know haven't been fired, and most people in general that I know, haven't been fired. Granted, many people see "the writing on the wall", so to speak, and leave a job before they are fired for whatever reason. I've know a lot of pharmacists, and I can only think of 9 who were fired (4 for stealing drugs, 1 for stealing money (!?!?!), 2 for incompetence (1 of these pharmacists was later fired from their next job for stealing drugs, so that undoubtedly factored into their incompetence), and 2 for political reasons . Actually 9 does sound like a lot, now that I think about it....but 6 of the 9, were fired for very discernible reasons, that their behavior led to. And this is pharmacists I've know over a period of ~30 years. Still, I have never been fired, and the vast majority of pharmacists I know have never been fired.

 

[smercer]

Option 1, say it happened and probably just have the app tossed. Option 2, don't mention it and possibly they do a more in depth check with previous jobs and find out, which leads to the app being tossed. Option 3, don't mention it and as long as they do not pry too deep, it will likely never come up.

Upside for you is that you now have a newer job as your last reference. I would just omit it and go from there, as once you get hired who is going to go looking for that? I see it as people do on any interview, telling the site what they want to hear to get into the door. It's all just a stupid game, but you have to play it to get a job.

 

[wagrxm2000]

This I find difficult to believe. At Wags saw

1 One Rph fired for repeated customer service complaints
2. Another rph fired for a routine customer service complaint
3. Another 2 rphs fired for excessive errors
4. Another rph fired for sleeping on overnights
5. another rph fired for no clear reaso6. another rph fired for a hippa violation

Wags is a revolving door

So 6 pharmacists and your district alone probably has around 40ish full time/part time. That's pretty low.

Most people leave the company for personal reasons not for being fired. There are exceptions depending on horrible DMs. People can say they were pushed out but come on, you know they actually sucked at their job. Just read some of these "please feel bad for me" stories we see here. Pretty much every firing I've heard about, I'd say was legit.

When we start getting pushed out, it will be obvious.

 

[Stella14]

To be honest with you I have a Pharm D and graduated in the upper 15% of my class which was number 5 in the country at the time . I scored in the 96% on Naplex and 98% in law. This is when you could only take exam once a year so you competed against the entire country. I went to midyear and was burnt out so thought I would go back and do a residency . Life happened. Got spooked with the student loan situation , since I left Home at 17 and put myself through undergrad and Pharmacy school so went to work for Walgreens. Was there 19.5 years (11 as a pharmacist ) . Got disgusted when new grads, etc crossed the picket line in 2005 so a bunch of us left. At that time you couldn’t apply to hospital unless you had a year of hospital experience as a pharmacist . Well how the hell does that happen ? I got into LTC then into hospital , then 8 years at Peds hospital and now back into adult to make myself more marketable bc more adult hospitals than Peds and I don’t have a residency . I built whatever left of a career the hard way . Enough of that explanation.

Life happens I got married and paid for my own wedding and house. $$$
Unfortunately breadwinner so when I got divorced there went $$$.
Student loans $$
Failed IVF$$
Lost money on sale of house $$
Just had to sell another house for loss bc of having to move for this crazy job I currently have. $$$ Better than zero job .
Cobra $500/month
Single ... no inheritances or living with my parents to save money or someone paying for anything.
Couple of surgeries/illness $$$

I’m not old enough to retire and no one is leaving me anything. I wish I had a house that was paid off or an apartment building but I don’t and unfortunately I don’t have an exit strategy.
Hence the freaking out. I’m now in an apartment that’s as much as my mortgage and taxes were bc I had to move for a job . Yes, freaking out.

Life did not work out the way I thought it would . If I was married I could possibly work part time or go back to school or who knows. That’s not the situation .
I had fun while it lasted, traveled , bought cars , nothing insanely crazy .
I have retirement ( not enough to get me to Social security /Medicare ...no pension ... but I’m not even 50. Most of us planned on at least working until 60.

Just sharing my crazy life bc this MIGHT be helpful to others...


As far as people getting laid off and fired I have been seeing an alarming trend in Pharmacy.
10 -15 years ago you got fired mostly bc of incompetence or politics.
Like I said I made it 23 years without a problem and have reinvented myself several times . Last 5 years I hear about people getting laid off or fired A LOT more. Companies /hospital systems are combining , retail now thinks people over 40 are old and crooked stuff is happening . There are a lot of unemployed and underemployed pharmacists.

I’m just trying to survive as long as I can. With the oversupply of pharmacists I really don’t think my application is going to get past electronic screening if I check that box . I wish I could experiment and see if it does , but it’s brutal in/near Chicago.

I guess when we graduated we thought we’d have a long career 30-40 years so we didn’t plan as well as you are. But, I would be severely depressed and scared ****less graduating now and owing $250,000 for school and hoping to get 10-15 years as a pharmacist like you guys have to face today.
Things are getting really bad out there, just saying.


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[lord999]

I would go as far as saying very few pharmacists have been fired like less then 10% and that might actually be high. From all the pharmacist I've met in my area over the years, it's way lower.

I recommend lying or you may find it hard to get interviews. There's already a ton of new grads, why make it harder on yourself?

That's not even CRW's internal statistics, and you're correct about the overestimation. It's actually around 5-7% for pharmacists that were involuntarily separated, almost all of them from inactive work (as in, has not worked in two months) and secondarily (distant) for Loss Prevention issues. I thought this was really high until I thought about how many pharmacists I knew just got their hours cut out until they were administratively terminated from lack of work. Wouldn't know the "mutual" agreements as CRW would never acknowledge such tactics.

Also, I don't know of the recent policy, but Area VP's are required to review District terminations for non-reportable reasons (meaning ones that don't end up reported to the police or Board) quarterly. It'd come up to Deerfield if there's a psychopath DM or RxS (Phoenix North's 1st DM, anyone?).

 

[Robin-jay]

I'm more of the med. school type of fellow so I don't know much about pharmacy.

However, I've been employed at many places and people get terminated to a wide array of reasons, some pretty silly or benign.

Some reasons include:

1. Slow at getting used to a new position (even though new positions take time to learn, some managers are impatient)
2. Unfortunate number of people complain about you (patients, employees, etc.) and this could be the persons fault or just unlucky.
3. Management just does't like you
i. political disagreements
ii. doesn't like your personality
iii. envy
4. Whatever reason they want. Maybe they found someone they think is better and terminate you for really no reason at all.

I LOL at people thinking being terminated means much anymore, especially in healthcare.

 

[Robin-jay]

So you think most people in the general public have been fired? That’s a statistic I would be interested in seeing. I suspect the vast majority of people have never been fired, although who knows, maybe I am totally wrong.

"An average of 54,549 people were laid off or fired EACH DAY (including weekends and holidays) in 2016. (19,965,000 people in total were laid off or fired in the 366 days of 2016.)"

Molly's Middle America: How Many People Are Fired Each Year in the United States? (Updated for early 2017)

That's about 6% of the total population, and probably closer to 10% of the working population terminated, in one single year.

I would be willing to wager most individuals (50-60%+) have been terminated from one job at one time or another.

 

[Dr. Galazkiewicz]

I mean no disrespect but if you've been a pharmacist for 24 years, that means you have a bachelor of science in pharmacy and zero student loans. Got grandfathered into the 6-figure salary and likely secured a sign-on bonus once or twice. Why are you still on the hamster wheel?

Two market crashes with a 3rd on the way. Alimony, kids' tuition to go to worthless pharmacy school, skyrocketing HC premiums and deductibles, spendthrift spouses and GFs, property taxes, lack of interest income the last ten years to bail out the banks, stagnant pharmacist salaries the last decade...the list goes on. Life happens. Relatives that lost jobs/careers since '09 have mooched off the family members still with incomes. Local governments have unfunded pensions and are looking for pockets to pick. Illinois, anybody? California? Connecticut?

 

[wagrxm2000]

"An average of 54,549 people were laid off or fired EACH DAY (including weekends and holidays) in 2016. (19,965,000 people in total were laid off or fired in the 366 days of 2016.)"

Molly's Middle America: How Many People Are Fired Each Year in the United States? (Updated for early 2017)

That's about 6% of the total population, and probably closer to 10% of the working population terminated, in one single year.

I would be willing to wager most individuals (50-60%+) have been terminated from one job at one time or another.

Didn't read the article but I would imagine most of those are low wage jobs. My local restaurants have new employees weekly it seems.

 

[Dred Pirate]

"An average of 54,549 people were laid off or fired EACH DAY (including weekends and holidays) in 2016. (19,965,000 people in total were laid off or fired in the 366 days of 2016.)"

Molly's Middle America: How Many People Are Fired Each Year in the United States? (Updated for early 2017)

That's about 6% of the total population, and probably closer to 10% of the working population terminated, in one single year.

I would be willing to wager most individuals (50-60%+) have been terminated from one job at one time or another.

50-60% seems high - I know probably 150 pharmacists good enough to know their entire work history - I know exactly 3 that have "let go" 1. was straight up fired for stealing 1. was part of a large lay off 1. was released before their probational period ran out. Obviously some industries have a much higher rate (manufacturing, contracts work, etc)

but to the OP - honestly -I would just not check it and see what happens? if you find out that it comes back to bite you, then go back to checking the box - I am not sure how mobile you are for applying in different areas (avoid the small world aspect)

 

[Robin-jay]

Didn't read the article but I would imagine most of those are low wage jobs. My local restaurants have new employees weekly it seems.

50-60% seems high - I know probably 150 pharmacists good enough to know their entire work history - I know exactly 3 that have "let go" 1. was straight up fired for stealing 1. was part of a large lay off 1. was released before their probational period ran out. Obviously some industries have a much higher rate (manufacturing, contracts work, etc)

but to the OP - honestly -I would just not check it and see what happens? if you find out that it comes back to bite you, then go back to checking the box - I am not sure how mobile you are for applying in different areas (avoid the small world aspect)

I agree that pharmacists, etc. are less likely to be terminated. What I'm focused on is mainly:

1. Many, if not most people, have been terminated at some point...even if its mostly a high turnover rate job like being a waiter/waitress before they become a pharmacist.

2. Individuals that get terminated by employers aren't always completely in the "wrong". Employers are people too, and many of them will be willing to terminate their employees over unimportant, personal, or trivial reasons.

Quick example:

Being kicked out of college for bad grades = all on you
Being fired from a job = many sides of the story here

 

[Dred Pirate]

I agree that pharmacists, etc. are less likely to be terminated. What I'm focused on is mainly:

1. Many, if not most people, have been terminated at some point...even if its mostly a high turnover rate job like being a waiter/waitress before they become a pharmacist.

2. Individuals that get terminated by employers aren't always completely in the "wrong". Employers are people too, and many of them will be willing to terminate their employees over unimportant, personal, or trivial reasons.

Quick example:

Being kicked out of college for bad grades = all on you
Being fired from a job = many sides of the story here

I guess I got fired when I was 14 on my last day of a farm work type of job, but in my defense this guy loved to fire people and fired ~40% of the crew at some point that year. Plus I got hired back the next year and eventually became a supervisor.

 

[Robin-jay]

I guess I got fired when I was 14 on my last day of a farm work type of job, but in my defense this guy loved to fire people and fired ~40% of the crew at some point that year. Plus I got hired back the next year and eventually became a supervisor.

I know people were fired as pharm. techs and still went to pharmacy school.

 

[johnpharm01]

So 6 pharmacists and your district alone probably has around 40ish full time/part time. That's pretty low.

Most people leave the company for personal reasons not for being fired. There are exceptions depending on horrible DMs. People can say they were pushed out but come on, you know they actually sucked at their job. Just read some of these "please feel bad for me" stories we see here. Pretty much every firing I've heard about, I'd say was legit.

When we start getting pushed out, it will be obvious.

Versus zero technicians fired including the chronically late, chronically insubordinate, grossly under performing?

I would like to know OPs decision:
1. Tell the truth, keep integrity intact but likely lessen employability
OR
2. Tell a lie, sacrifice integrity but increase odds of getting a job

 

[owlegrad]

I am surprised at how many people here think it is easy to get fired. I am sure that is some people's experience but in my experience it is actually pretty tough to get fired. You have to be chronically late, have an exceedingly poor attitude, horrific work ethic, or do something illegal such as theft. I have never seen a pharmacist or tech fired for errors (although I am sure it happens, I am just talking about my personal observations). And Florida is hardly a progressive state when it comes to worker's rights.

Even at CVS the only pharmacists I ever saw fired were for theft. Now if you want to consider people who were put on PIPs or who otherwise "saw the writing on the wall" and quit before they were fired, yeah, sure, that number goes up dramatically. But actually terminated? Very few.

 

[wagrxm2000]

Versus zero technicians fired including the chronically late, chronically insubordinate, grossly under performing?

I would like to know OPs decision:
1. Tell the truth, keep integrity intact but likely lessen employability
OR
2. Tell a lie, sacrifice integrity but increase odds of getting a job

Your integrity is determined by yourself. Do you even go a week without saying a single untruthful thing?

An employer shouldn't take a previous firing into consideration for an interview. Unfortunately they do.

You should take care of yourself over your employer.

 

[lord999]

Your integrity is determined by yourself. Do you even go a week without saying a single untruthful thing?

An employer shouldn't take a previous firing into consideration for an interview. Unfortunately they do.

Contextual though, I would take a previous termination for theft or disruption (sexual or physical assault) seriously as would you in thinking about hiring someone. Unfortunately, I think as a manager, you know as well as I do that good luck getting that kind of information from the previous employer on the reason for termination.

If I happen to know that assault was the reason for termination, I won't bother interviewing. There's no point as they wouldn't clear the background investigation.

 

[Dr. Galazkiewicz]

I can't help but think of all the times I've been verbally and physically assaulted by management, staff, and customers.

 

[johnpharm01]

Your integrity is determined by yourself. Do you even go a week without saying a single untruthful thing?

An employer shouldn't take a previous firing into consideration for an interview. Unfortunately they do.

You should take care of yourself over your employer.

We can control our behavior and act with integrity, but we are going to be judged by others. No ,I hardly ever lie, certainly not on a job application. I am not good at it all. The only lie I might tell is "baby your butt is not that big." In my professional life I strive to be honest: I am not going to tell someone something is out of stock just to get out of filling it, I will explain why.

I agree with your last two statements.

 

[johnpharm01]

I can't help but think of all the times I've been verbally and physically assaulted by management, staff, and customers.

I was verbally assaulted regularly when I worked for one major chain, even in front of loss prevention. They simply don't care. What a great work environment.

 

[OXYFORALL]

So 6 pharmacists and your district alone probably has around 40ish full time/part time. That's pretty low.

Most people leave the company for personal reasons not for being fired. There are exceptions depending on horrible DMs. People can say they were pushed out but come on, you know they actually sucked at their job. Just read some of these "please feel bad for me" stories we see here. Pretty much every firing I've heard about, I'd say was legit.

When we start getting pushed out, it will be obvious.

Try to find a rph at rite aid still getting 5 weeks vacation. The vast majority of the old timers have been let go to clear the way for younger,cheaper rphs who barely speak English let alone can run a pharmacy.

 

[Robin-jay]

I am surprised at how many people here think it is easy to get fired. I am sure that is some people's experience but in my experience it is actually pretty tough to get fired. You have to be chronically late, have an exceedingly poor attitude, horrific work ethic, or do something illegal such as theft. I have never seen a pharmacist or tech fired for errors (although I am sure it happens, I am just talking about my personal observations). And Florida is hardly a progressive state when it comes to worker's rights.

Even at CVS the only pharmacists I ever saw fired were for theft. Now if you want to consider people who were put on PIPs or who otherwise "saw the writing on the wall" and quit before they were fired, yeah, sure, that number goes up dramatically. But actually terminated? Very few.

Also, a more fun example:

Moment Undercover boss is fired for incompetence | Daily Mail Online

CEO's from the famous show "Undercover Bosses" often get terminated from the jobs they oversee (In this care, a CEO was fired from a fork-lifting job).

When I was in undergrad. and not employed in health care, I used to think being fired was due to almost only having bad attitudes, being chronically late, etc.

However, I see much more reasons employers fire employees now, and realize its due to a large range of reasons, sometimes fair, sometimes not.

 

[Mambo#5]

I am surprised at how many people here think it is easy to get fired. I am sure that is some people's experience but in my experience it is actually pretty tough to get fired. You have to be chronically late, have an exceedingly poor attitude, horrific work ethic, or do something illegal such as theft. I have never seen a pharmacist or tech fired for errors (although I am sure it happens, I am just talking about my personal observations). And Florida is hardly a progressive state when it comes to worker's rights.

Even at CVS the only pharmacists I ever saw fired were for theft. Now if you want to consider

I am surprised at how many people here think it is easy to get fired. I am sure that is some people's experience but in my experience it is actually pretty tough to get fired. You have to be chronically late, have an exceedingly poor attitude, horrific work ethic, or do something illegal such as theft. I have never seen a pharmacist or tech fired for errors (although I am sure it happens, I am just talking about my personal observations). And Florida is hardly a progressive state when it comes to worker's rights.

Even at CVS the only pharmacists I ever saw fired were for theft. Now if you want to consider people who were put on PIPs or who otherwise "saw the writing on the wall" and quit before they were fired, yeah, sure, that number goes up dramatically. But actually terminated? Very few.

Not true at all. It can be really easy to get fired, whether you’re new or have been working for a company for years. And this is from experience and having worked in more pharmacies than you can shake a stick at.

1. If you are new and you don’t fit in. They can easily get rid of you for any reason. In private and government.

2. I floated as a pharmacist in South Florida, in Miami and Fort Lauderdale between 2007 and 2011 full time. CVS was getting rid of the older pharmacists (15 or 20 plus years). I was friendly with 2 older pharmacists and told them to watch out because they are getting rid of older pharmacists. Pharmacist A said he was ok because he had been with the company for 15 years and shook it off, believing he was untouchable. Pharmacist B, also an excellent pharmacist said, after I warned him about what was going on, that the pharmacists getting fired must have done something wrong.

Within a year, both A and B were gone. When you say that it is difficult to get fired, you remind me so much of those pharmacists. I can only laugh when I hear people like you say this. Lol

They can get rid of you for any reason, a coupon done wrong, asking you to take on a different store, move to a different location, give you less help and force you out. The number of ways to get rid of a person are infinite. They can even slow your computer down and say you check too slow. What you hear now might seem unbelievable. But what is unbelievable becomes believable when you experience it.

As for coming in late.... lol and real reasons... lmfao pffft, There are techs that come in late everyday, and they’ve been around for years.

And as for a poor attitude or work ethic? Seriously? When I hear this I am reminded of people who believe an A+ student will get a better job than a C+ student. You can have a poor attitude, a poor work ethic and be lazy and still hold your job if you are friends with the right people. This happens in every field. Hello!!! It’s who you know not what you know.

Lol. It’s not easy to get fired? Just look at the Trump administration. Lol Did the people he fire really deserve to be fired?

 

[johnpharm01]

I am surprised at how many people here think it is easy to get fired. I am sure that is some people's experience but in my experience it is actually pretty tough to get fired. You have to be chronically late, have an exceedingly poor attitude, horrific work ethic, or do something illegal such as theft. I have never seen a pharmacist or tech fired for errors (although I am sure it happens, I am just talking about my personal observations). And Florida is hardly a progressive state when it comes to worker's rights.

Even at CVS the only pharmacists I ever saw fired were for theft. Now if you want to consider people who were put on PIPs or who otherwise "saw the writing on the wall" and quit before they were fired, yeah, sure, that number goes up dramatically. But actually terminated? Very few.

One would hope this is the case, buts its not reality. I live and work in an "at will" state you can be fired any reason or no reason at all.

 

[owlegrad]

Not true at all. It can be really easy to get fired, whether you’re new or have been working for a company for years. And this is from experience and having worked in more pharmacies than you can shake a stick at.

1. If you are new and you don’t fit in. They can easily get rid of you for any reason. In private and government.

2. I floated as a pharmacist in South Florida, in Miami and Fort Lauderdale between 2007 and 2011 full time. CVS was getting rid of the older pharmacists (15 or 20 plus years). I was friendly with 2 older pharmacists and told them to watch out because they are getting rid of older pharmacists. Pharmacist A said he was ok because he had been with the company for 15 years and shook it off, believing he was untouchable. Pharmacist B, also an excellent pharmacist said, after I warned him about what was going on, that the pharmacists getting fired must have done something wrong.

Within a year, both A and B were gone. When you say that it is difficult to get fired, you remind me so much of those pharmacists. I can only laugh when I hear people like you say this. Lol

They can get rid of you for any reason, a coupon done wrong, asking you to take on a different store, move to a different location, give you less help and force you out. The number of ways to get rid of a person are infinite. They can even slow your computer down and say you check too slow. What you hear now might seem unbelievable. But what is unbelievable becomes believable when you experience it.

As for coming in late.... lol and real reasons... lmfao pffft, There are techs that come in late everyday, and they’ve been around for years.

And as for a poor attitude or work ethic? Seriously? When I hear this I am reminded of people who believe an A+ student will get a better job than a C+ student. You can have a poor attitude, a poor work ethic and be lazy and still hold your job if you are friends with the right people. This happens in every field. Hello!!! It’s who you know not what you know.

Lol. It’s not easy to get fired? Just look at the Trump administration. Lol Did the people he fire really deserve to be fired?

So you think employers slow down your computer so they can fire you? Ok.

One would hope this is the case, buts its not reality. I live and work in an "at will" state you can be fired any reason or no reason at all.

I also live and work in an at will state. But corporations have policies to prevent wrongful termination suits. Also turnover is expensive. This delusion that there are so many pharmacists getting fired all the time for no reason is laughable. Or maybe it is more accurate to say I haven’t seen it.

My district at CVS had more old timers than it had new grads, FWIW. Maybe mine was the exception, I couldn’t say.

 

[johnpharm01]

So you think employers slow down your computer so they can fire you? Ok.



I also live and work in an at will state. But corporations have policies to prevent wrongful termination suits. Also turnover is expensive. This delusion that there are so many pharmacists getting fired all the time for no reason is laughable. Or maybe it is more accurate to say I haven’t seen it.

My district at CVS had more old timers than it had new grads, FWIW. Maybe mine was the exception, I couldn’t say.

I can't tell you how many policies I saw violated when working at a major retailer. There are also unwritten policies that are enforced as well. Very few older pharmacists (40+) still work in my old district. That aren't fired/pushed out etc all at once, but person by person. And actually turnover saves money because new pharmacists get paid less, have less PTO etc. I am glad your experience varies, I do believe that it depends on the management.

 

[rxdawg21]

I know several pharmacists fired in my short career based on varying circumstance. One was signing the electronic pseudoephedrine log back in 2008-09 because the patient didn’t sign it and had already left. Another for giving cipro to a tech with a uti and his partner was under investigation unbeknownst to him. Another two fired for incompetence at a VA (and it’s not easy to get fired lol). I know several others that the paper trail has started on them and they jumped ship. And still others that were involuntarily moved to undesirable stores and dm was riding them and thus left shortly after. This is all in the last 10 years. Most of these were all older well compensated employees. I know of zero firings or pushing out of my peers I graduated with

 

[Mambo#5]

But corporations have policies to prevent wrongful termination suits. Also turnover is expensive.

You do realize these corporations have top notch lawyers. They wouldn’t be so stupid as to fire someone based on age, or what they really want to fire you for.

You do realize how powerful these oligopolies are? I mean they could own the insurance company, the supplier in addition to the pharmacy. Oops...I think they already do. Well, I mean, they could have representatives for their company be on the board of pharmacy. Oops... nevermind...anyway

Also, what chance do you think you might have of winning a lawsuit based on your belief that they fired you due to X but it was really Y?

As far as turnover is concerned. That too is also laughable. I float, so I know turnover in retail these days is ridiculous. The average new grad lasts about 2 years at a certain pharmacy(per district manager A) But, you would just need to float a couple years to see that you don’t need statistics to come up with that estimate.

Turnover saves the company money. For if retail companies were really concerned about turnover, if it did effect their bottom line, they would give your techs a more decent wage, give you more help and a real lunch break, or maybe even over time pay. By not giving decent wages and short staffing pharmacies, the chains make top dollar. Prescriptions get filled whether your tech or pharmacist has been there for 2 months or 2 years. In this way the chains maximize their profits. And this is done by paying low wages and giving you little help and also by not giving raises (or never having to because there’s always a fresh supply of recruits) Whether the prescription gets filled right or wrong is the pharmacists problem. After all the chain is only paying for your license (per district manager B). And if you want to argue experience counts. The difference between the salary of a new grad and a pharmacist of 15 or 20 years might be $5k(per district manager B) And if they’re making much more well then.....guess what? Lol

 

[M0df]

I wondered how your situation at work last year turned out.

Here is the problem. Many of the people in position to make hiring decisions such as directors in hospitals (and maybe LTC) know each other. If you don't disclose something on your application, it should help you get an interview. However, if the HR/director are doing their due diligence, it is possible they would find out. I do agree with posters above. If you disclose this issue now, it is unlikely you will get an interview.

On the bright side, you did get another position after being let go. There is continuity on your resume.

 

[CynicalIntern]

Also, I don't know of the recent policy, but Area VP's are required to review District terminations for non-reportable reasons (meaning ones that don't end up reported to the police or Board) quarterly. It'd come up to Deerfield if there's a psychopath DM or RxS (Phoenix North's 1st DM, anyone?).

I can't believe everyone just glossed over this. I want to know what the story was with Phoenix North's 1st DM!

 

[Apotheker2015]

1) because my generation was stupid and didn't realize we would get old or that the golden years of pharmacy wouldn't last forever

and/or

2) we are the sandwich generation stuck supporting our parents who didn't save anything for their retirement, as well as helping our children through overpriced colleges. Meaning, we have little to save for our own retirement.

For all you youngsters expecting "older" pharmacists to retire, it isn't going to happen.

Thank you for sharing. Retirement abroad is an option. Check out International Living - Live, Retire and Invest Overseas You can find rankings, cost of living and just about anything you need to consider before choosing where to retire overseas. Most of the people who share their experience are not 6-figure earners. Some rely on social security income. Some have secured an early retirement by accessing their 401k at age 55 and then wait for social security income.

It's possible to check out of the rat race. Sure, there will be trade-offs but it's doable.

 

[Apotheker2015]

To be honest with you I have a Pharm D and graduated in the upper 15% of my class which was number 5 in the country at the time . I scored in the 96% on Naplex and 98% in law. This is when you could only take exam once a year so you competed against the entire country. I went to midyear and was burnt out so thought I would go back and do a residency . Life happened. Got spooked with the student loan situation , since I left Home at 17 and put myself through undergrad and Pharmacy school so went to work for Walgreens. Was there 19.5 years (11 as a pharmacist ) . Got disgusted when new grads, etc crossed the picket line in 2005 so a bunch of us left. At that time you couldn’t apply to hospital unless you had a year of hospital experience as a pharmacist . Well how the hell does that happen ? I got into LTC then into hospital , then 8 years at Peds hospital and now back into adult to make myself more marketable bc more adult hospitals than Peds and I don’t have a residency . I built whatever left of a career the hard way . Enough of that explanation.

Life happens I got married and paid for my own wedding and house. $$$
Unfortunately breadwinner so when I got divorced there went $$$.
Student loans $$
Failed IVF$$
Lost money on sale of house $$
Just had to sell another house for loss bc of having to move for this crazy job I currently have. $$$ Better than zero job .
Cobra $500/month
Single ... no inheritances or living with my parents to save money or someone paying for anything.
Couple of surgeries/illness $$$

I’m not old enough to retire and no one is leaving me anything. I wish I had a house that was paid off or an apartment building but I don’t and unfortunately I don’t have an exit strategy.
Hence the freaking out. I’m now in an apartment that’s as much as my mortgage and taxes were bc I had to move for a job . Yes, freaking out.

Life did not work out the way I thought it would . If I was married I could possibly work part time or go back to school or who knows. That’s not the situation .
I had fun while it lasted, traveled , bought cars , nothing insanely crazy .
I have retirement ( not enough to get me to Social security /Medicare ...no pension ... but I’m not even 50. Most of us planned on at least working until 60.

Just sharing my crazy life bc this MIGHT be helpful to others...


As far as people getting laid off and fired I have been seeing an alarming trend in Pharmacy.
10 -15 years ago you got fired mostly bc of incompetence or politics.
Like I said I made it 23 years without a problem and have reinvented myself several times . Last 5 years I hear about people getting laid off or fired A LOT more. Companies /hospital systems are combining , retail now thinks people over 40 are old and crooked stuff is happening . There are a lot of unemployed and underemployed pharmacists.

I’m just trying to survive as long as I can. With the oversupply of pharmacists I really don’t think my application is going to get past electronic screening if I check that box . I wish I could experiment and see if it does , but it’s brutal in/near Chicago.

I guess when we graduated we thought we’d have a long career 30-40 years so we didn’t plan as well as you are. But, I would be severely depressed and scared ****less graduating now and owing $250,000 for school and hoping to get 10-15 years as a pharmacist like you guys have to face today.
Things are getting really bad out there, just saying.


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Thank you for sharing. I think we all needed to hear that. It's the reason I am still in the same apartment I was when I was in pharmacy school. The only upgrade I've made is my car. Get gas, oil changed done.
I guess it all depends how you look at it. 250K in debt from student loans sounds a lot less than everything you listed. Most people don't think about it twice before jumping on a 300k mortgage. I wouldn't. Not for a single family home, anyway.

Have you considered retiring abroad? That would probably lower the bar and the anxiety, I am assuming you must feel thinking you will not be able to save enough for retirement and may not be able to be employed as long either. Your living expenses would be dramatically reduced.

Have you considered purchasing a duplex? Living in one unit, collecting enough rent for the other unit to cover the mortgage and start building some equity. Then after two years move out, rent both units and buy a triplex. Heck, you can start with the triplex right away. All with a FHA loan. Just saying.

Step off the hamster wheel for minute and look around at the resources available to you. You probably have good credit. There has to be a way for you to be able to check out of the rat race. The new grad production will not stop for while. They come out more decorated each time.

 

[Momus]

You will never see an interview if you check that box. Most DM easily gets about 20-50+ applicants in the metro area. Why do you think they will want to take a chance with you?

 

[Sabril]

Do what i do and have been done: tell the truth. It is uncommon not to be fired and employers know what the pharmacist market is like, that some terminations are unfair, etc. I prefer to get hired and not have to worry about being fired later on for lying on the application if it comes out somehow. Integrity is crucial in our business. Most people however probably lie and it may hurt your application chances.

I live in loserville (South Florida) so maybe what I see is not typical, but I kinda agree with John that nowadays firing pharmacists seems to be a popular sport. Maybe they can put it in the winter olympics. But I think getting fired as a pharmacist nowadays gives you the same chance of getting reemployed as Jared at Subway. I don't see why recruiters would be salivating over a thoroughly chewed piece of gum. Technicians though I feel is a different story. Job-hopping, multiple past terminations, and maybe one or two criminal convictions and you are a shoo-in.

 

[owlegrad]

I live in loserville (South Florida) so maybe what I see is not typical, but I kinda agree with John that nowadays firing pharmacists seems to be a popular sport. Maybe they can put it in the winter olympics. But I think getting fired as a pharmacist nowadays gives you the same chance of getting reemployed as Jared at Subway. I don't see why recruiters would be salivating over a thoroughly chewed piece of gum. Technicians though I feel is a different story. Job-hopping, multiple past terminations, and maybe one or two criminal convictions and you are a shoo-in.

This is so true. Their pay might be **** but in every other way the tech job market is fantastic.

 

[Dred Pirate]

An employer shouldn't take a previous firing into consideration for an interview. Unfortunately they do.

I curious why you say this - if I am hiring someone, I want to know if they got fired and why - obviously that would impact my decision on if they are a proper fit for my pharmacy.

 

[wagrxm2000]

I curious why you say this - if I am hiring someone, I want to know if they got fired and why - obviously that would impact my decision on if they are a proper fit for my pharmacy.

I'm not sure what you're curious about? You think a person being fired should be an ok reason not to give them an interview? It's not like you are hiring them

 

[Apotheker2015]

Advice ... I have been a pharmacist for 24 years now. Practiced in a wide variety of settings, so well rounded resume wise.
However , I was terminated for 1st time ever last May from a job that I held for 8 months due to not being a good cultural fit? I think someone had it out for me bc they found out I was making more money than them. Either way I was put on performance improvement plan for stupid stuff like not picking up phone as fast or as often as my peers ( ridiculous) and other weirdness. I never had been fired and thought I would get off of PIP. Well I didn’t and took termination to get unemployment that I only used a couple of weeks and then got prn hospital job and then another full time hospital job .
Long story short , current job is hell and unsustainable ( 11.5 hour nights verifying for 3 hospitals ) . Starting to apply for other positions ,but these employers are getting very specific on their online applications.
They are asking have you ever been asked to leave, involuntarily terminated, on a PIP, etc. some you can give a reason and others it’s just checking a box . I fear if I check the box I will not get an interview , however I was told to never lie in writing on an app. Market is so bad what are people doing?

I did collect unemployment for a few weeks so I received a 1099-G. If I lied on app and they did financial background check would this come up?

Advice

Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile

***About the check box - the reason they're asking YOU is because they cannot ask your former employers that. Well, they can try. But most employers are only willing to verify dates of employment. That's it. To do more than that opens them up to way too many liabilities. Don't check it. Don't clutter your application for no reason.

 

[CetiAlphaFive]

But corporations have policies to prevent wrongful termination suits. Also turnover is expensive.

You do realize these corporations have top notch lawyers. They wouldn’t be so stupid as to fire someone based on age, or what they really want to fire you for.

You do realize how powerful these oligopolies are? I mean they could own the insurance company, the supplier in addition to the pharmacy. Oops...I think they already do. Well, I mean, they could have representatives for their company be on the board of pharmacy. Oops... nevermind...anyway

Also, what chance do you think you might have of winning a lawsuit based on your belief that they fired you due to X but it was really Y?

As far as turnover is concerned. That too is also laughable. I float, so I know turnover in retail these days is ridiculous. The average new grad lasts about 2 years at a certain pharmacy(per district manager A) But, you would just need to float a couple years to see that you don’t need statistics to come up with that estimate.

Turnover saves the company money. For if retail companies were really concerned about turnover, if it did effect their bottom line, they would give your techs a more decent wage, give you more help and a real lunch break, or maybe even over time pay. By not giving decent wages and short staffing pharmacies, the chains make top dollar. Prescriptions get filled whether your tech or pharmacist has been there for 2 months or 2 years. In this way the chains maximize their profits. And this is done by paying low wages and giving you little help and also by not giving raises (or never having to because there’s always a fresh supply of recruits) Whether the prescription gets filled right or wrong is the pharmacists problem. After all the chain is only paying for your license (per district manager B). And if you want to argue experience counts. The difference between the salary of a new grad and a pharmacist of 15 or 20 years might be $5k(per district manager B) And if they’re making much more well then.....guess what? Lol

Lol.

You think corporations have "top notch lawyers"?

Lol

 

[owlegrad]

Lol.

You think corporations have "top notch lawyers"?

Lol

So many LOLs in that post and you want to focus on the lawyers?

 

[lord999]

I can't believe everyone just glossed over this. I want to know what the story was with Phoenix North's 1st DM!

Harvard Business Review.