Disciplinary Record for Covid Violation

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katara031

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Hello everyone,
For this past Fall semester I got caught violating covid regulation for my college. my school has given me an option to be removed from spring housing while still paying $8000 of room and board or to return but have a disciplinary record. I just got caught bringing a couple of my friends into my suite that did not belong to my residential hall but were still on campus students. I know that if i have a disciplinary record, I would have to disclose this on my application to med schools. However, do you think that this violation would be seen as a minor violation or as a major violation by med schools.

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Hello everyone,
For this past Fall semester I got caught violating covid regulation for my college. my school has given me an option to be removed from spring housing while still paying $8000 of room and board or to return but have a disciplinary record. I just got caught bringing a couple of my friends into my suite that did not belong to my residential hall but were still on campus students. I know that if i have a disciplinary record, I would have to disclose this on my application to med schools. However, do you think that this violation would be seen as a minor violation or as a major violation by med schools.
You're kidding, right? If not, how do you think med schools would view any violation committed by a prospective student related to worst global public health crisis in the past century? This isn't an underaged beer, or a cat in a dorm. This is willfully violating a rule designed to control the spread of a deadly, highly contagious disease while allowing your school to stay open. At my school, you'd be removed, you'd forfeit the room and board, AND you'd have the formal disciplinary record. Schools are under all kinds of pressure to try to provide some sort of on-campus experience, and are dead serious about the rules.

Not telling you what to do, but I'd point out that AMCAS will expect you to disclose, whether or not it's on your record, so not disclosing will be lying when you sign the application, and later discovery would risk blowing up your career.

I would go a step further and ask the esteemed adcoms whether this would render an application DOA? @LizzyM @gyngyn @gonnif?
 
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I think this might be an $8,000 mistake. It shows poor judgement. The question basically comes down to whether it will show up on your record. This would be considered more like cheating, i.e., willful decision to violate the student handbook and lacking character, Imo. It won't be like finding beer empty cans in your room and be looked at as a lapse in judgement. Covid has caused enormous stress and heartache to millions of people, either through infections or through draconian lockdowns, crushing families and small businesses. Being seen as callous to these issues will not be a good look for you. I would consider this a serious IA if I were reviewing such an application describing these events.
 
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I never even considered there would be IAs for COVID violations. What were you thinking? This really shows a high level of poor judgement. Whether you pay the $8000 or return, you have to report it. When you sign your AMCAS application you are signing that everything is complete and true. To not include this would be lying on your application. And that would be compounding the situation. I don’t suppose you have been personally touched by the ravages of COVID.
 
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I just want to clarify that my school does not consider removal from housing due to a covid violation as an institutional action. Well, that is what my pre-health advisors and the office of student conduct are telling me. However, if I decide to return, they might give me a disciplinary record for it which I know i have to report. I also take the pandemic seriously and am always cautious. It was just a one time thing that I did and these were my close friends that I would see anyway everyday outside of my halls, when we are eating at the dining halls, in study rooms, or just in general. This also wasn't a party or large gathering. There weren't any open rooms available in other buildings so I decided to bring them in. Never would I bring people who I am not close to and are off campus and are not tested by the university into my dorm. Yes, i understand what I did was still wrong. I was just wondering how badly this will affect my application.
 
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I just want to clarify that my school does not consider removal from housing due to a covid violation as an institutional action. Well, that is what my pre-health advisors and the office of student conduct are telling me. However, if I decide to return, they might give me a disciplinary record for it which I know i have to report. I also take the pandemic seriously and am always cautious. It was just a one time thing that I did and these were my close friends that I would see anyway everyday outside of my halls, when we are eating at the dining halls, in study rooms, or just in general. This also wasn't a party or large gathering. There weren't any open rooms available in other buildings so I decided to bring them in. Never would I bring people who I am not close to and are off campus and are not tested by the university into my dorm. Yes, i understand what I did was still wrong. I was just wondering how badly this will affect my application.
Actually, they are just parsing words with you. Of course it's an "institutional action" -- the institution is removing you from on-campus housing for violating its rules!!!! What they are saying is that they will not create a formal record of it if you go quietly. Anticipating situations just like this, AMCAS requires the following:

"If you were ever the recipient of any institutional action by any college or medical school for unacceptable academic performance or conduct violation, you must answer Yes, even if such action did not interrupt your enrollment or require you to withdraw. Furthermore, select Yes even if the action does not appear on, or has been deleted or expunged from, your official transcripts as a consequence of institutional policy or personal petition.

Failure to provide an accurate answer to the question about institutional action or, if applicable, failure to complete the form provided by the school will result in an investigation. Medical schools require you to answer the question accurately and provide all relevant information. Medical schools understand that many individuals learn from the past and emerge stronger as a result. Full disclosure will enable medical schools to evaluate the information more effectively within the context of your application.

If you become the subject of an institutional action after certifying and submitting the AMCAS application, you must inform your designated medical school(s) within 10 business days of the date of the occurrence."

I agree that the wild card is what will med schools do about a COVID-related violation, when similar conduct not related to a deadly pandemic probably would not be the end of the world. Given the gravity of COVID, however, I wouldn't take that for granted here. As I'm sure you know, if your school was okay with what you did, the rules would have created a carve-out for it. You knew this, and went forward anyway.

Just a simple word of caution, since, knowing how you feel, you probably won't feel required to report. How did your school find out? Are you sure that whoever reported you (or, anyone else for that matter) also won't report you to AMCAS? Nowadays, at least at my school, COVID violations are among the worst things you can do. As bad as self reporting might be, not reporting and having it discovered later will be significantly worse.
 
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I dont know if I would consider this DOA. How many millions of people disregarded the guidelines. It wasnt that the OP had a massive party. I think it is mark but again I would make a VERY BRIEF description of 3-6 sentences with just a single line of "it was stupid and immature mistake"
 
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I dont know if I would consider this DOA. How many millions of people disregarded the guidelines. It wasnt that the OP had a massive party. I think it is mark but again I would make a VERY BRIEF description of 3-6 sentences with just a single line of "it was stupid and immature mistake"
I'm a little surprised to hear this from the guy who was screaming "the sky is falling" last spring, and who went out on a limb predicting that the entire cycle could be canceled due to the cataclysmic catastrophe unfolding!! :cool:

To me at least, this gives a lot of credibility to your advice, given how strongly you felt about the situation a few months ago!!!! Basically, if you could find a way to get past this conduct, I'd bet adcoms would be willing to do the same.
 
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Actually, they are just parsing words with you. Of course it's an "institutional action" -- the institution is removing you from on-campus housing for violating its rules!!!! What they are saying is that they will not create a formal record of it if you go quietly. Anticipating situations just like this, AMCAS requires the following:

"If you were ever the recipient of any institutional action by any college or medical school for unacceptable academic performance or conduct violation, you must answer Yes, even if such action did not interrupt your enrollment or require you to withdraw. Furthermore, select Yes even if the action does not appear on, or has been deleted or expunged from, your official transcripts as a consequence of institutional policy or personal petition.

Failure to provide an accurate answer to the question about institutional action or, if applicable, failure to complete the form provided by the school will result in an investigation. Medical schools require you to answer the question accurately and provide all relevant information. Medical schools understand that many individuals learn from the past and emerge stronger as a result. Full disclosure will enable medical schools to evaluate the information more effectively within the context of your application.

If you become the subject of an institutional action after certifying and submitting the AMCAS application, you must inform your designated medical school(s) within 10 business days of the date of the occurrence."

I agree that the wild card is what will med schools do about a COVID-related violation, when similar conduct not related to a deadly pandemic probably would not be the end of the world. Given the gravity of COVID, however, I wouldn't take that for granted here. As I'm sure you know, if your school was okay with what you did, the rules would have created a carve-out for it. You knew this, and went forward anyway.

Just a simple word of caution, since, knowing how you feel, you probably won't feel required to report. How did your school find out? Are you sure that whoever reported you (or, anyone else for that matter) also won't report you to AMCAS? Nowadays, at least at my school, COVID violations are among the worst things you can do. As bad as self reporting might be, not reporting and having it discovered later will be significantly worse.
The person who made an incident report does not know my name. (they just described my room number and that is how the school found out) I also doubt that they would even have time to report it to AMCAS themselves. I am fine with reporting it on AMCAS. My prehealth advisors were telling me that being caught with alcohol and drugs is worse than bringing your best friends who are on campus residents into your dorm as I was not violating any law nor was this large gathering. They were telling me that this is an unprecedented time, they can't expect every college student to always follow these rules. I just wanted to get other opinions on how this will hurt my application.
 
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I feel like it’s safe to say either way, you have to report it which will inevitably hurt your application. How much will honestly depend on the adcoms and SDN answers are only speculation. At the end of the day, you made a mistake, you’ll have to own up to it and be honest when you apply, and then you’ll have to wait and see what happens. I do not think SDN advice will bring you the peace of mind or clarity you’re likely hoping for.
 
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The person who made an incident report does not know my name. (they just described my room number and that is how the school found out) I also doubt that they would even have time to report it to AMCAS themselves. I am fine with reporting it on AMCAS. My prehealth advisors were telling me that being caught with alcohol and drugs is worse than bringing your best friends who are on campus residents into your dorm as I was not violating any law nor was this large gathering. They were telling me that this is an unprecedented time, they can't expect every college student to always follow these rules. I just wanted to get other opinions on how this will hurt my application.
On the other hand, if this was really no big deal, they'd give you a warning and another chance rather than kicking you out of housing and making you forfeit $8,000. People who care about you and your success are being supportive and saying all the right things, but, if your school is anything like mine, they take it deadly seriously, there is zero tolerance, and there is no allowance for unprecedented times. All that was covered by the COVID waiver and addendum to the housing agreement we signed, acknowledging the rules and the consequences for violating them, as well as the webcourse we had to sit through before being allowed back on campus.

I totally get it. To me, @gonnif so far has given the best advice. I'd also pay careful attention if anyone else who actually serves on an adcom weighs in. Just realize that if it doesn't appear on your record, and you choose not to report on that basis, you are definitely lying on your application. You very well might get away with that, but the consequences will be terrible if you are caught, so you have to weigh that possibility against the likely outcome if you do report. If @gonnif and your prehealth advisors are correct, you won't be DOA, so the smarter move would probably be to report with a very brief explanation.

Even drugs and alcohol aren't devastating (that seems to be reserved for cheating, DUI and acts of physical violence), but, COVID being a deadly pandemic and med schools being at ground zero (especially those attached to teaching hospitals), combine to make this a very unique situation. As I noted in another post, similar rule violations not related to a pandemic would be a big nothing to med schools.
 
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I dont know if I would consider this DOA. How many millions of people disregarded the guidelines. It wasnt that the OP had a massive party. I think it is mark but again I would make a VERY BRIEF description of 3-6 sentences with just a single line of "it was stupid and immature mistake"

And how many are currently healthcare workers? My experience with contact tracing at the hospital are that the vast majority of infections from HCWs are due to community spread. I don't think this is comparable to an IA for cheating or even drugs/alcohol with the caveat that I am not an ADCOM. It should be judged much less seriously. I
 
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I would say this is probably going to be a big deal on your app, but it'll vary from ADCOM member to ADCOM member.

For example, at my shop we have a couple of docs who are pretty staunch anti-maskers and think the lockdown was a political move and shouldn't have existed. Obviously they would give you a pass.

Contrast that to myself and others who have had to palliatively extubate far more patients this year than we ever thought we would in our careers. I would look at this as a much larger infraction.

Personally I would take the $8k fine to at least not have the black mark on my record.
 
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I feel like it’s safe to say either way, you have to report it which will inevitably hurt your application. How much will honestly depend on the adcoms and SDN answers are only speculation. At the end of the day, you made a mistake, you’ll have to own up to it and be honest when you apply, and then you’ll have to wait and see what happens. I do not think SDN advice will bring you the peace of mind or clarity you’re likely hoping for.
That’s the thing about this situation. OP shows no evidence of owning anything. For every response statement , OP has a response of why it’s not a big deal.
OP do what you want because that’s exactly what you plan to do. If you decide to report an IA for violating COVID regulations be careful. If you report it and make light of the incident(like you did in every response on here) remember that people read your application. With 24M COVID diagnoses and 410+k deaths , the chance of someone directly impacted by Covid is significant. And lots of the evaluators face Covid patients everyday. You might want to make sure that none of your LOR writers will mention it.
 
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And how many are currently healthcare workers? My experience with contact tracing at the hospital are that the vast majority of infections from HCWs are due to community spread. I don't think this is comparable to an IA for cheating or even drugs/alcohol with the caveat that I am not an ADCOM.
I feel like you are exaggerating my situation here. This was a not a large gathering. I literally just bought two of my friends over ,that I already see everyday, to study because there were no available study rooms. These are also on campus residents where we are tested very frequently. It is not like I have brought off campus students to my place nor have we attended off campus parties (which there were plenty last semester but none of the students got caught or had to face any type of sanction). I know that the pandemic is serious and deadly and I respect healthcare workers for their job and I know what I did was still wrong and I take full responsibility for my actions but I do not understand why my particular case is worse than cheating on an exam.
 
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That’s the thing about this situation. OP shows no evidence of owning anything. For every response statement , OP has a response of why it’s not a big deal.
OP do what you want because that’s exactly what you plan to do. If you decide to report an IA for violating COVID regulations be careful. If you report it and make light of the incident(like you did in every response on here) remember that people read your application. With 24M COVID diagnoses and 410+k deaths , the chance of someone directly impacted by a Covid is significant. And lots of the evaluators face Covid patients everyday. You might want to make sure that none of your LOR writers will mention it.
I may have not directly written it on this forum but I am owning up to my actions. I take full responsibility of my actions and I understand that I need to report it which I will do and I do not have a problem with that. I know the pandemic is serious and I regret my actions. It was a one time mistake. It is just that my school has been telling students that if we get removed from housing, you do not need to report it to grad schools. But if people are telling me that I need to report it I will. I have just been given mixed reactions by my advisors who are telling me that this incident won't hurt my app and the people responding here who are telling me otherwise. I am pretty close with my LOR writers and have a very good relationship with them, but I am pretty sure they won't include this one time incident that they know I regret and was an honest mistake.
 
I feel like you are exaggerating my situation here. This was a not a large gathering. I literally just bought two of my friends over ,that I already see everyday, to study because there were no available study rooms. These are also on campus residents where we are tested very frequently. It is not like I have brought off campus students to my place nor have we attended off campus parties (which there were plenty last semester but none of the students got caught or had to face any type of sanction). I know that the pandemic is serious and deadly and I respect healthcare workers for their job and I know what I did was still wrong and I take full responsibility for my actions but I do not understand why my particular case is worse than cheating on an exam.
You are 1,000,000% correct. It's not worse than cheating -- it's just different. If you did the same thing in any other context (i.e., having someone or something in your room that was against the rules), it would be a very excusable offense. The issue here is med school and deadly pandemic. That said, at least one adcom has already opined that it's forgivable. You also received excellent advice from @candbgirl that disclosing it along with an explanation that it's not a big deal for all the reasons you keep citing will not do you any good.

You clearly don't get it. Your school tried to create a bubble in every dorm, and you decided to break it because you couldn't find a study room. No big deal, unless one of your buddies turned out to be asymptomatic and turned your dorm into a super spreader, but, whatever. If your school wanted the bubble to extend to the entire campus, all on-campus residents who are subjected to very frequent testing would be allowed in any dorm without restriction. Maybe you think the rules make no sense because you are allowed out of your dorm, and maybe you are correct, but nobody put you in charge of this!! :cool:

Now you have to either fake your way through recognizing the gravity of your mistake and contrition, OR you have to take the chance that a failure to disclose will not come back to bite you in the a** later.
 
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If you decide to report it, You may want to explain it with one line, like @gonnif said, maybe something like “I received a disciplinary action for violation of Covid-19 social distancing protocols for having two close friends into my dorm room to study, because no other rooms were available.”
 
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I may have not directly written it on this forum but I am owning up to my actions. I take full responsibility of my actions and I understand that I need to report it which I will do and I do not have a problem with that. I know the pandemic is serious and I regret my actions. It was a one time mistake. It is just that my school has been telling students that if we get removed from housing, you do not need to report it to grad schools. But if people are telling me that I need to report it I will. I have just been given mixed reactions by my advisors who are telling me that this incident won't hurt my app and the people responding here who are telling me otherwise. I am pretty close with my LOR writers and have a very good relationship with them, but I am pretty sure they won't include this one time incident that they know I regret and was an honest mistake.
The AMCAS instructions are pretty unambiguous, so it's not clear why anyone is telling you anything else, unless they have absolutely no idea what they are talking about. Remember, this isn't generic "grad schools." This is a very specific question and guidance on how to answer it from AMCAS.

At the end of the day, it is your application. You are the only one who will sign it or be responsible for its contents. I excerpted the relevant section of the instructions for you. You will need to familiarize yourself with all of the requirements when it comes time to complete the application. At that time, you will do so and make your own determination, but, yeah, people on SDN who have been through it do not seem to be in disagreement, so the instruction is pretty clear and explicit.

Whether or not it will actually hurt your application is actually very much up for debate, even here!! :cool:
 
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I may have not directly written it on this forum but I am owning up to my actions. I take full responsibility of my actions and I understand that I need to report it which I will do and I do not have a problem with that. I know the pandemic is serious and I regret my actions. It was a one time mistake. It is just that my school has been telling students that if we get removed from housing, you do not need to report it to grad schools. But if people are telling me that I need to report it I will. I have just been given mixed reactions by my advisors who are telling me that this incident won't hurt my app and the people responding here who are telling me otherwise. I am pretty close with my LOR writers and have a very good relationship with them, but I am pretty sure they won't include this one time incident that they know I regret and was an honest mistake.
Just a FYI it is well known on SDN that on campus premed advisors are not the best source for good and valid information.
 
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If you decide to report it, You may want to explain it with one line, like @gonnif said, maybe something like “I received a disciplinary action for violation of Covid-19 social distancing protocols for having two close friends into my dorm room to study, because no other rooms were a

The AMCAS instructions are pretty unambiguous, so it's not clear why anyone is telling you anything else, unless they have absolutely no idea what they are talking about. Remember, this isn't generic "grad schools." This is a very specific question and guidance in how to answer it from AMCAS.

At the end of the day, it is your application. You are the only one who will sign it or be responsible for its contents. I excerpted the relevant section of the instructions for you. You will need to familiarize yourself with all of the requirements when it comes time to complete the application. At that time, you will do so and make your own determination, but, yeah, people on SDN who have been through it do not seem to be in disagreement, so the instruction is pretty clear and explicit.

Whether or not it will actually hurt your application is actually very much up for debate, even here!! :cool:
Thank you for your advice. I will report it and I am not planning on explaining my excuse when I explain it on my application because I know what I did was wrong and selfish.
 
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I'm a little surprised to hear this from the guy who was screaming "the sky is falling" last spring, and who went out on a limb predicting that the entire cycle could be canceled due to the cataclysmic catastrophe unfolding!! :cool:

To me at least, this gives a lot of credibility to your advice, given how strongly you felt about the situation a few months ago!!!! Basically, if you could find a way to get past this conduct, I'd bet adcoms would be willing to do the same.
We are getting daily death counts in excess of 4,000 from Covid. That is more than died in a single day on 9/11 that we went to war over
We are going to have 600,000 dead from Covid probably sometime in March. That is nearly as many Americans who died in the Civil war.
We have hospitalizations rates that are straining the both the infrastructure and staff of our healthcare system.
As a nation we face a raging pandemic, a faltering economy, increasing food insecurity, a looming eviction crisis, and the worst political and social divisions since the Civil War.
What part of the sky hasnt fallen?
 
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And how many are currently healthcare workers? My experience with contact tracing at the hospital are that the vast majority of infections from HCWs are due to community spread. I don't think this is comparable to an IA for cheating or even drugs/alcohol with the caveat that I am not an ADCOM.
Just as a comment on this, I know three doctors whose late teen/college age children went insisted on seeing friends/going out and were then exposed thus requiring quarantine for 14 days. One doc had to cancel 11 surgeries
 
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Just a FYI it is well known on SDN that on campus premed advisors are not the best source for good and valid information.
Thank you for letting me know. I hope that other premed students at my school who have violated the covid rules know that they have to report their violation even if our school is telling them they do not need to because it will be unfair to the people who do report it and do not have any record of the violation.
 
Thank you for letting me know. I hope that other premed students at my school who have violated the covid rules know that they have to report their violation even if our school is telling them they do not need to because it will be unfair to the people who do report it and do not have any record of the violation.

Unfair maybe,but it is the right thing to do. Physicians are in a profession that requires the highest level of ethics. If a person isn’t truthful in this instance what will he do in the future when it could impact a patient’s life?
Maybe think about letting your advisor know what the AMCAS directions state. I’m pretty sure they haven’t read them and what they do is for the colleges acceptance stats not really for you.
 
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I feel like you are exaggerating my situation here. This was a not a large gathering. I literally just bought two of my friends over ,that I already see everyday, to study because there were no available study rooms. These are also on campus residents where we are tested very frequently. It is not like I have brought off campus students to my place nor have we attended off campus parties (which there were plenty last semester but none of the students got caught or had to face any type of sanction). I know that the pandemic is serious and deadly and I respect healthcare workers for their job and I know what I did was still wrong and I take full responsibility for my actions but I do not understand why my particular case is worse than cheating on an exam.
I'm sorry I was ambiguous in my reply. I don't think it's comparable in seriousness. Plenty of HCWs and ADCOMs even have done the exact same thing that you are being severely punished for. $8K is nothing more than extortion considering that you are a college student. Most criminal misdemeanors have lower fines than that. It's not like you're an NFL player making millions of dollars a year.
 
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We are getting daily death counts in excess of 4,000 from Covid. That is more than died in a single day on 9/11 that we went to war over
We are going to have 600,000 dead from Covid probably sometime in March. That is nearly as many Americans who died in the Civil war.
We have hospitalizations rates that are straining the both the infrastructure and staff of our healthcare system.
As a nation we face a raging pandemic, a faltering economy, increasing food insecurity, a looming eviction crisis, and the worst political and social divisions since the Civil War.
What part of the sky hasnt fallen?
The part where the national med school class of 2025 was canceled!! :cool:

Your point is VERY well taken!!! You were one of the first, loudest and most strident voices on SDN regarding how bad this was going to be. Although it turned out you were a little too alarmist regarding the inability of the system to adjust, make accommodations, and life to go on, you correctly anticipated just how awful it was going to be. Accordingly, if you don't think a premed acting recklessly and potentially putting lives at risk would be fatal to an application, I'm going to go with you on this!! :cool:
 
To add another data point:
Personally, I would be more lenient than some of my colleagues here if I were to see a COVID-related IA for a small study session. I have seen a fair number of my physician colleagues and other healthcare professionals break social distancing guidelines to attend small/medium but non-essential gatherings (family birthdays, fraternity get-togethers, weddings, dinner with friends, etc). Some of these events involved crossing state lines, and based on pictures posted, was mask-optional. To be clear though, these people generally take the pandemic very seriously and are far from being anti-maskers. Being healthcare professionals, older, and belonging to a higher risk group than college students, they should also know much better. So I do not see this type of infraction as being disqualifying for medical school.

Per AMCAS: "Medical schools need to know if you were ever the recipient of any institutional action resulting from... a conduct violation, even if such action... does not appear on your official transcripts due to institutional policy". I would email your school (so there is written evidence) and specifically ask whether taking the option to leave the college housing system after your conduct violation constitutes an institutional action. If the answer is 'no' (e.g they are offering you the chance to voluntarily withdraw from the housing system before an institutional action can be rendered), then forgo your room and board and live outside the college bubble. If the answer is 'yes', then you will need to report this regardless of whether this appears on your transcript.

As mentioned above, there will be a diversity of opinions on this topic within each adcom. When an acceptance usually requires a large majority of support from its adcom members, I do see this hurting your chances. If this indeed is an IA, my advice would be to apply broadly, own up to your mistake, and make sure you have no other blemishes on your application. Best of luck.
 
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Hello everyone,
For this past Fall semester I got caught violating covid regulation for my college. my school has given me an option to be removed from spring housing while still paying $8000 of room and board or to return but have a disciplinary record. I just got caught bringing a couple of my friends into my suite that did not belong to my residential hall but were still on campus students. I know that if i have a disciplinary record, I would have to disclose this on my application to med schools. However, do you think that this violation would be seen as a minor violation or as a major violation by med schools.
I'm going to give you a slightly different response and tone from those who have previously posted.

First, to my knowledge, an IA ACTUALLY has to show up on your transcripts for it to be reportable to AMCAs. It's kind of like the same thing for misdemeanors. They ask you to report things such as speeding tickets which can be a misdemeanor but are almost never listed on any background check whatsoever as long as you complete the required tasks. I have also seen PLENTY of advice on this sight about not reporting something as an IA in instances where someone was given some sort of choice "Either you do x for your punishment, or y but don't worry, it wont show up on record unless you fail to comply," because it is not truly an IA.

I say all that to say this; the reasons AMCAs has the rule that "you put anything down, no matter what" is because if you say it doesn't exist, and then your transcript does or your background check does, then thats it. You're done. They consider that a gross misrepresentation and a lie.

But I have never, not on this site, not on reddit, and not in real life, EVER heard of someone not self-reporting something that does not show up in any official document whatsoever, and then later having their career ruined over it. Not a single time. Not saying it cannot happen, but I would say extremely, utterly rare. However, that choice is on what to do is on you.

Second, you need to realize what you did was a poor lapse of judgement, and then own that hardcore. It does not really matter why you did it or how you got caught or who reported it. It was a bad decision. I know you say you own that, but in this thread, it does not appear that way. Just for future references in your professional career; when something like this happens, make sure there is no question on whether or not you own that mistake cause it will make a difference in outcomes.

Third, I would say pay the $8,000 fine, and move on. Do not take the risk of having an actual disciplinary action on your record. However, you definitely need to ENSURE that paying the fine will 100% result in no disciplinary action being put on your record, because otherwise, all of that would be a moot point.

Fourth, having an IA is tough. It makes your chances of medical school even smaller in an already tough pool. Having an IA where it was a willful decision to violate rules related to a pandemic, is that much more worse. Especially like stated earlier in that you will never know what kind of person, what they believe, and what their relationship is to covid (believe in it, dont believe in it, lost someone to it) is.

Fifth, and finally; yes, having a true IA on your record is 100% going to negatively impact your chances of medical school. How hard, minor or major? No one truly knows, which is why some of these people - including myself - are telling you to eat the $8,000. You don't want to miss out on a career because of this one thing that someone sitting on a committee somewhere decides that the choice was everything they needed to know about you. If you do take the IA option, then ensuring that you clearly communicate that you were at-fault, own that decision, and explain the exact circumstances like stated above, then you have a chance. If you eat the $8,000, then there is nothing to discuss anyway.

For future choices, make sure the choice you are making isnt putting you back down this route.
 
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I'm sorry I was ambiguous in my reply. I don't think it's comparable in seriousness. Plenty of HCWs and ADCOMs even have done the exact same thing that you are being severely punished for. $8K is nothing more than extortion considering that you are a college student. Most criminal misdemeanors have lower fines than that. It's not like you're an NFL player making millions of dollars a year.
People have been saying this since the beginning of this thread, and I am almost 100% sure that it it incorrect.

If OP's school is anything like mine (and it sounds like it is almost exactly the same :cool:), the $8,000 is NOT a fine! You are correct insofar as I've never heard of a UG levying a fine like that.

The $8,000 represents the room and board that OP will be forfeiting under the school's no refund policy after being kicked out of housing for breaking the rules. This is standard everywhere. Basically, the school is not going to take a financial hit after kicking someone out in the middle of a school year for violating rules. Pretty much the same reason you don't get a refund if you drop classes after the first few days of a semester. The twist here is the COVID reason for the forced withdrawal, which I promise everyone was fully disclosed and agreed to in an addendum to the housing agreement before OP was allowed to move in.

So, no, it's not extortion, and it's gone, one way or the other. The only question for OP is whether he gets a hearing and a note on his transcript before he is kicked out, or whether he goes quietly. COVID is seriously business (just ask @gonnif) and OP knows he is guilty of violating his agreement. End of story. It's not a criminal matter, and it's not a fine, so OP's station in life is not really an issue here!
 
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Haha, not to add anything regarding OP's situation, but I find the contrast between this situation among premed students on this thread to be funny.

Meanwhile, plenty of physicians are letting their friend's son shadow them at a public hospital with no testing required..and many students are eager to do the same thing while crucifying someone for having 2 friends over?...to think that isn't worse than what OP did? Haha. It truly is quite dumb to violate rules ON CAMPUS in a dorm...but I don't think any adcom is going to be penalizing someone for the former, though. :) What's worse?
 
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Haha, not to add anything regarding OP's situation, but I find the contrast between this situation among premed students on this thread to be funny.

Meanwhile, plenty of physicians are letting their friend's son shadow them at a public hospital with no testing required..and many students are eager to do the same thing while crucifying someone for having 2 friends over?...to think that isn't worse than what OP did? Haha. It truly is quite dumb to violate rules ON CAMPUS in a dorm...but I don't think any adcom is going to be penalizing someone for the former, though. :) What's worse?
I dunno. What do you think would be perceived as being worse to a med school adcom -- following COVID rules that you agree to in a clinical setting, or making up your own as you go along on campus? Is it really a hard call to guess what's worse when it's framed like that?

Yes, plenty of people are pursuing in person experiences in their quest for the mystical, magical A, and no adcom is going to penalize them for doing so. It's a false equivalence to compare that to having 2 friends over, in contravention of an agreement not to do so, while telling your school to go f**k itself as it tries to enforce a protocol designed to control spread and facilitate contact tracing.

A better equivalence might be to get an in person shadowing or other clinical gig at a public hospital, get fired from it for not following social distancing or PPE protocols because you don't think they should apply to you since you live on campus and are subject to frequent testing, and then asking whether or not an adcom would penalize you for THAT if they ever fouind out about it. :cool:
 
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I dunno. What do you think would be perceived as being worse to a med school adcom -- following COVID rules that you agree to in a clinical setting, or making up your own as you go along on campus? Is it really a hard call to guess what's worse when it's framed like that?

Yes, plenty of people are pursuing in person experiences in their quest for the mystical, magical A, and no adcom is going to penalize them for doing so. It's a false equivalence to compare that to having 2 friends over, in contravention of an agreement not to do so, while telling your school to go f**k itself as it tries to enforce a protocol designed to control spread and facilitate contact tracing.

A better equivalence might be to get an in person shadowing or other clinical gig at a public hospital, get fired from it for not following social distancing or PPE protocols because you don't think they should apply to you since you live on campus and are subject to frequent testing, and then asking whether or not an adcom would penalize you for THAT if they ever fouind out about it. :cool:
I see your point, but I was more so talking about it in a fundamental sense. Not to act as the following anectodal story is of any true value, but I know 2 kids who shadowed at our large University hospital in a large city in the midwest and ended up giving and getting COVID-19 despite "following social distancing guidelines." That is, one kid was apparently asymptomatic and gave COVID-19 to legitimately 100+ people counting extension (that we know of, including me) as he shadowed in an inpatient unit. The other kid got COVID-19 at the shadowing position.

And I put that in quotes because if you're shadowing right now, you probably just happen to know someone and aren't actually being forced to subject to formal testing protocol or actual formal COVID-19 protocol as you would be as an actual clinical work or as part of a formal program.

If I look at the risk of both situations one is clearly worse than the other, but hey that's just me. I understand one is violating objective rules set by the university but isn't shadowing literally inherently a violation of COVID-19 rules at the moment? Many hospitals aren't allowing even ONE family member into clinic/ERs for patients...not to mention an undergrad student who just wants to get ahead of the pack...I think it's a given that shadowing shouldn't' be going on, but plenty of students are still doing it.

I know it's a "hate the game not the player" type of situation, but still...
 
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Thank you for letting me know. I hope that other premed students at my school who have violated the covid rules know that they have to report their violation even if our school is telling them they do not need to because it will be unfair to the people who do report it and do not have any record of the violation.
The issue really isn't fair or not.

Everyone has to make their own decision, regardless of whether they are receiving good advice, bad advice, or no advice. If they don't report and they aren't caught, good for them. The question is one of risk/reward.

They advice you've received here is that the consequence of reporting might be negative, but probably not devastating. I don't think anyone will seriously argue that the consequence of not reporting and being caught in the future would be devastating. So the question then becomes one of determining just how low that probability is as compared to the cost, and then making a judgment.

Just keep in mind that tons of people every day decide to go for it, and, after the fact, the few who get caught are REALLY sorry, and don't understand why there are no do-overs. Just ask anyone who has ever been caught cheating.

Most of them are really smart and don't need to do it, but they want the edge and consider the odds of being caught to be low. It works out for many of them, and it's not fair to everyone who doesn't cheat. The few who get caught never quite understand why the consequences are so severe. The answer is because, if they weren't, many more people would be incentivized to cheat, not report, etc., and the whole academic integrity system would collapse onto itself.
 
I see your point, but I was more so talking about it in a fundamental sense. Not to act as the following anectodal story is of any true value, but I know 2 kids who shadowed at our large University hospital in a large city in the midwest and ended up giving and getting COVID-19 despite "following social distancing guidelines." That is, one kid was apparently asymptomatic and gave COVID-19 to legitimately 100+ people counting extension (that we know of, including me) as he shadowed in an inpatient unit. The other kid got COVID-19 at the shadowing position.

And I put that in quotes because if you're shadowing right now, you probably just happen to know someone and aren't actually being forced to subject to formal testing protocol or actual formal COVID-19 protocol as you would be as an actual clinical work or as part of a formal program.

If I look at the risk of both situations one is clearly worse than the other, but hey that's just me. I understand one is violating objective rules set by the university but isn't shadowing literally inherently a violation of COVID-19 rules at the moment? Many hospitals aren't allowing even ONE family member into clinic/ERs for patients...not to mention an undergrad student who just wants to get ahead of the pack...I think it's a given that shadowing shouldn't' be going on, but plenty of students are still doing it.
In a fundamental sense you are absolutely correct, so I totally understand where OP was coming from. I was in the same position, and even posted about it in the fall, and received a deafening lack of response on SDN. (My roommate insisted on bringing in his on campus GF against the rules, and I was terrified that if he got caught I'd be implicated for not reporting him. I brought the concern to him, and he agreed to decamp to the GF's room.)

Yes, the campus rules are BS, since we are all on campus, subject to the same protocols, and interact with each other in class, library, dining, etc. The rules are meant to limit our contact outside those venues and, apparently, to make contact tracing easier by limiting access to the dorms. The fact is, the rules are what they are and we agreed to them.

I was and am totally paranoid over the possibility of having a COVID related IA on a med school application, of all things. OP is living my nightmare, which is why I'd never put myself in that position, although I understand the rationale behind what he did.
 
The part where the national med school class of 2025 was canceled!! :cool:

Your point is VERY well taken!!! You were one of the first, loudest and most strident voices on SDN regarding how bad this was going to be. Although it turned out you were a little too alarmist regarding the inability of the system to adjust, make accommodations, and life to go on, you correctly anticipated just how awful it was going to be. Accordingly, if you don't think a premed acting recklessly and potentially putting lives at risk would be fatal to an application, I'm going to go with you on this!! :cool:

I'm going to give you a slightly different response and tone from those who have previously posted.

First, to my knowledge, an IA ACTUALLY has to show up on your transcripts for it to be reportable to AMCAs. It's kind of like the same thing for misdemeanors. They ask you to report things such as speeding tickets which can be a misdemeanor but are almost never listed on any background check whatsoever as long as you complete the required tasks. I have also seen PLENTY of advice on this sight about not reporting something as an IA in instances where someone was given some sort of choice "Either you do x for your punishment, or y but don't worry, it wont show up on record unless you fail to comply," because it is not truly an IA.

I say all that to say this; the reasons AMCAs has the rule that "you put anything down, no matter what" is because if you say it doesn't exist, and then your transcript does or your background check does, then thats it. You're done. They consider that a gross misrepresentation and a lie.

But I have never, not on this site, not on reddit, and not in real life, EVER heard of someone not self-reporting something that does not show up in any official document whatsoever, and then later having their career ruined over it. Not a single time. Not saying it cannot happen, but I would say extremely, utterly rare. However, that choice is on what to do is on you.

Second, you need to realize what you did was a poor lapse of judgement, and then own that hardcore. It does not really matter why you did it or how you got caught or who reported it. It was a bad decision. I know you say you own that, but in this thread, it does not appear that way. Just for future references in your professional career; when something like this happens, make sure there is no question on whether or not you own that mistake cause it will make a difference in outcomes.

Third, I would say pay the $8,000 fine, and move on. Do not take the risk of having an actual disciplinary action on your record. However, you definitely need to ENSURE that paying the fine will 100% result in no disciplinary action being put on your record, because otherwise, all of that would be a moot point.

Fourth, having an IA is tough. It makes your chances of medical school even smaller in an already tough pool. Having an IA where it was a willful decision to violate rules related to a pandemic, is that much more worse. Especially like stated earlier in that you will never know what kind of person, what they believe, and what their relationship is to covid (believe in it, dont believe in it, lost someone to it) is.

Fifth, and finally; yes, having a true IA on your record is 100% going to negatively impact your chances of medical school. How hard, minor or major? No one truly knows, which is why some of these people - including myself - are telling you to eat the $8,000. You don't want to miss out on a career because of this one thing that someone sitting on a committee somewhere decides that the choice was everything they needed to know about you. If you do take the IA option, then ensuring that you clearly communicate that you were at-fault, own that decision, and explain the exact circumstances like stated above, then you have a chance. If you eat the $8,000, then there is nothing to discuss anyway.

For future choices, make sure the choice you are making isnt putting you back down this route.
That is incorrect. Just to be absolutely perfect clear, IAs must be reported whether or not they appear on a transcripts as below from 2021 applicant guide

Institutional Action
If you were ever the recipient of any institutional action by any college or medical school for unacceptable academic performance or conduct violation, you must answer Yes, even if such action did not interrupt your enrollment or require you to withdraw. Furthermore, select Ye s even if the action does not appear on, or has been deleted or expunged from, your official transcripts as a consequenceof institutional policy or personal petition.
 
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I'm going to give you a slightly different response and tone from those who have previously posted.

First, to my knowledge, an IA ACTUALLY has to show up on your transcripts for it to be reportable to AMCAs. It's kind of like the same thing for misdemeanors. They ask you to report things such as speeding tickets which can be a misdemeanor but are almost never listed on any background check whatsoever as long as you complete the required tasks. I have also seen PLENTY of advice on this sight about not reporting something as an IA in instances where someone was given some sort of choice "Either you do x for your punishment, or y but don't worry, it wont show up on record unless you fail to comply," because it is not truly an IA.

I say all that to say this; the reasons AMCAs has the rule that "you put anything down, no matter what" is because if you say it doesn't exist, and then your transcript does or your background check does, then thats it. You're done. They consider that a gross misrepresentation and a lie.

But I have never, not on this site, not on reddit, and not in real life, EVER heard of someone not self-reporting something that does not show up in any official document whatsoever, and then later having their career ruined over it. Not a single time. Not saying it cannot happen, but I would say extremely, utterly rare. However, that choice is on what to do is on you.

Second, you need to realize what you did was a poor lapse of judgement, and then own that hardcore. It does not really matter why you did it or how you got caught or who reported it. It was a bad decision. I know you say you own that, but in this thread, it does not appear that way. Just for future references in your professional career; when something like this happens, make sure there is no question on whether or not you own that mistake cause it will make a difference in outcomes.

Third
, I would say pay the $8,000 fine, and move on. Do not take the risk of having an actual disciplinary action on your record. However, you definitely need to ENSURE that paying the fine will 100% result in no disciplinary action being put on your record, because otherwise, all of that would be a moot point.

Fourth, having an IA is tough. It makes your chances of medical school even smaller in an already tough pool. Having an IA where it was a willful decision to violate rules related to a pandemic, is that much more worse. Especially like stated earlier in that you will never know what kind of person, what they believe, and what their relationship is to covid (believe in it, dont believe in it, lost someone to it) is.

Fifth, and finally; yes, having a true IA on your record is 100% going to negatively impact your chances of medical school. How hard, minor or major? No one truly knows, which is why some of these people - including myself - are telling you to eat the $8,000. You don't want to miss out on a career because of this one thing that someone sitting on a committee somewhere decides that the choice was everything they needed to know about you. If you do take the IA option, then ensuring that you clearly communicate that you were at-fault, own that decision, and explain the exact circumstances like stated above, then you have a chance. If you eat the $8,000, then there is nothing to discuss anyway.

For future choices, make sure the choice you are making isnt putting you back down this route.
I regret my decision everyday and it has already placed a lot of mental stress on me. I know this was a bad decision and I know I deserve some type of punishment. I know this was a selfish mistake on my part. I know what to say when I report my issue on AMCAS. I am not going to give them any excuse. I just do not understand why people here are making it seem like I am responsible for 410K deaths and for businesses to shut down by me bringing my 2 best friends over. Again, I know what I did was wrong especially during a pandemic. It was never my intention to put anyone at harm. I am also confused because I have read other forums where people have told others to not self report if there is no record of it so I am confused why people here are telling me that I need to. These responses are also different than what my school has been telling us on whether or not we have to report the issue. I think I am planning on returning to campus because I do not think I should waste $8,000. I am aware that it will show up on my disciplinary record but I guess that is what I deserve.
 
I regret my decision everyday and it has already placed a lot of mental stress on me. I know this was a bad decision and I know I deserve some type of punishment. I know this was a selfish mistake on my part. I know what to say when I report my issue on AMCAS. I am not going to give them any excuse. I just do not understand why people here are making it seem like I am responsible for 410K deaths and for businesses to shut down by me bringing my 2 best friends over. Again, I know what I did was wrong especially during a pandemic. It was never my intention to put anyone at harm. I am also confused because I have read other forums where people have told others to not self report if there is no record of it so I am confused why people here are telling me that I need to. These responses are also different than what my school has been telling us on whether or not we have to report the issue. I think I am planning on returning to campus because I do not think I should waste $8,000. I am aware that it will show up on my disciplinary record but I guess that is what I deserve.
Why are you confused? Two people have now quoted directed from the AMCAS document. Do you not understand what it says?

People telling you not to report are telling you to take your chances because the odds of getting caught are low. That's probably true, but the consequences of being caught are probably going to be life altering, so you, and only you, have to decide if the risk is worth it. It's no more nuanced than that.

I'm shocked your school will even allow you back with the reported IA. My school wouldn't! That definitely makes the calculation more complicated, since you would have to spend $8K to be allowed to take the risk, versus not needlessly spending the money, reporting the incident and taking your chances, which two adcoms so far have opined would not kill your application.
 
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I regret my decision everyday and it has already placed a lot of mental stress on me. I know this was a bad decision and I know I deserve some type of punishment. I know this was a selfish mistake on my part. I know what to say when I report my issue on AMCAS. I am not going to give them any excuse. I just do not understand why people here are making it seem like I am responsible for 410K deaths and for businesses to shut down by me bringing my 2 best friends over. Again, I know what I did was wrong especially during a pandemic. It was never my intention to put anyone at harm. I am also confused because I have read other forums where people have told others to not self report if there is no record of it so I am confused why people here are telling me that I need to. These responses are also different than what my school has been telling us on whether or not we have to report the issue. I think I am planning on returning to campus because I do not think I should waste $8,000. I am aware that it will show up on my disciplinary record but I guess that is what I deserve.
People like to be more critical on these forums so don't take it personally. Rules says you shouldn't hide anything on the app and if you do there is chance of schools finding out. Since you are comfortable owning the mistake and mention it in the app you should move-on and don't think further. Work on coming up with a good explanation and have it reviewed by multiple people. GL! May be time to lock the thread :)
 
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Why are you confused? Two people have now quoted directed from the AMCAS document. Do you not understand what it says?

People telling you not to report are telling you to take your chances because the odds of getting caught are low. That's probably true, but the consequences of being caught are probably going to be life altering, so you, and only you, have to decide if the risk is worth it. It's no more nuanced than that.

I'm shocked your school will even allow you back with the reported IA. My school wouldn't! That definitely makes the calculation more complicated, since you would have to spend $8K to be allowed to take the risk, versus not needlessly spending the money, reporting the incident and taking your chances, which two adcoms so far have opined would not kill your application.
My school is letting me back because I explained to them that I do not have an ideal living situation at home and a proper learning environment for a college student and gave them my word that I wouldn't do this again. I also had a lot of people advocate for me. They told me that I can go back but because I need to face some type of consequence, my case would go through our student conduct process. They said that I would most likely receive just a conduct warning and would have a disciplinary record but that this would not go on my transcript. I will still report it on AMCAS. At my school we have a system where covid violations usually go through reslife and not student conduct and therefore, this incident does not go on our transcript nor our student conduct record and I guess that is why our school was telling us there was no need to report it. I do not know why but that is what they told students at my school. However, I will report it and I am fine with getting a disciplinary record because I do not have a proper living situation and staying home will negatively affect my academic studies which I care more about.
 
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People like to be more critical on these forums so don't take it personally. Rules says you shouldn't hide anything on the app and if you do there is chance of schools finding out. Since you are comfortable owning the mistake and mention it in the app you should move-on and don't think further. Work on coming up with a good explanation and have it reviewed by multiple people. GL! May be time to lock the thread :)
Thank you for your input. It has brightened my day a bit. The people here are definitely making me feel even more guilty and depressed. I will keep my head up high and will not have this incident get in the way of ruining my dreams that I am working so hard for.
 
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You should report it since the AMCAS guidelines say you should, and although it will hurt your chances, I don't know that it extinguishes them. I'm just an MS4, but I don't think this says nearly as much about your character as something like cheating. The campus rules don't even make a ton of sense from a logical standpoint, but unfortunately that doesn't matter in this situation.

This thread is laughable since it's just other pre-meds absolutely crucifying you for your blunder. SDN is ruthless and likes to make people feel way worse than they should. Just own it, move on, and don't listen to the annoying people on SDN who want you to grovel and cover yourself in sackcloth and ashes to make themselves feel better.
 
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I think it's a given that shadowing shouldn't' be going on, but plenty of students are still doing it.
Wonder who held those physicians accountable?
Second, more relevant here, how those applicants will be treated by adcoms in upcoming cycle, knowing the fact that shadowing is virtually impossible in metro areas?

Edit: Referring applicants here are ones who are able to shadow in current pandemic environment.
 
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Wonder who held those physicians accountable?
Second, more relevant here, how those applicants will be treated by adcoms in upcoming cycle, knowing the fact that shadowing is virtually impossible in metro areas?
Simple -- they will be punished, assuming there are more than enough well qualified candidates who got the expected amount of shadowing in before things shut down or after they opened back up in whatever areas they happen to be in.

As one of your favorite adcoms likes to repeatedly say, med school isn't going anywhere, nothing is more important than the health of the candidate and his or her family, and there is nothing wrong with sitting out a cycle if that's what it takes.

Exactly what sort of special dispensation are you expecting, given how you seem to have a pretty decent handle in general on the concept of the sellers' market??? Do you honestly expect adcoms to relax the requirement that candidates in certain areas of the country engage in a requisite amount of shadowing in order to understand the road ahead, when a critical mass of other candidates have already done so, simply because they (or their parents) don't want to cool their heels while obtaining additional enriching experiences for another year? :cool:
 
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Hopping back in for a second. People here are noting not to disclose on AMCAS if you don't have a mark on your record. If you do that you'll join a long list of people who haven't disclosed things in the past, and more likely than not you'll be just fine and never get caught.

However, keep in mind you'll spend 4 years "looking over your shoulder" wondering if someone is going to find out. If you do elect not to disclose I would highly recommend holding this one incredibly close to the vest. If your school catches wind you lied on your AMCAS because, say, you have a bad breakup with a fellow student who decides to get back at you, you'll be in for a world of hurt. It probably wouldn't be expulsion but you'll be sweating bullets waiting to find out.

I'm not a proponent of not disclosing, but that's because med school is hard enough on someone's psyche without having that hanging over their head.
 
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Simple -- they will be punished, assuming there are more than enough well qualified candidates who got the expected amount of shadowing in before things shut down or after they opened back up in whatever areas they happen to be in.

As one of your favorite adcoms likes to repeatedly say, med school isn't going anywhere, nothing is more important than the health of the candidate and his or her family, and there is nothing wrong with sitting out a cycle if that's what it takes.

Exactly what sort of special dispensation are you expecting, given how you seem to have a pretty decent handle in general on the concept of the sellers' market??? Do you honestly expect adcoms to relax the requirement that candidates in certain areas of the country engage in a requisite amount of shadowing in order to understand the road ahead, when a critical mass of other candidates have already done so, simply because they (or their parents) don't want to cool their heels while obtaining additional enriching experiences for another year? :cool:
For a pre-med you seem to be pretty confident in your knowledge of how adcoms work. It’s a strange year, and I’d be surprised to see outright “punishments” for things related to COVID, mostly because things are handled much differently in different parts of the country. Shadowing is not as important as pre-meds think, but self awareness is key. Maybe keep that in mind before passing along more of your “advice”.
 
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For a pre-med you seem to be pretty confident in your knowledge of how adcoms work. It’s a strange year, and I’d be surprised to see outright “punishments” for things related to COVID, mostly because things are handled much differently in different parts of the country. Shadowing is not as important as pre-meds think, but self awareness is key. Maybe keep that in mind before passing along more of your “advice”.
and you get different views from different adcoms and attending physicians. I guess OP's mistake is worse than CA governor having a party at French Laundry and deserves no admission.
 
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For a pre-med you seem to be pretty confident in your knowledge of how adcoms work. It’s a strange year, and I’d be surprised to see outright “punishments” for things related to COVID, mostly because things are handled much differently in different parts of the country. Shadowing is not as important as pre-meds think, but self awareness is key. Maybe keep that in mind before passing along more of your “advice”.
Yes, I'm reasonably confident based on the amount of research I have done over the past 3 years, both online and in person. This cycle, lots of people were expecting all kinds of allowances due to the unprecedented times we are living in. Reality is beginning to smack them right in the face as schools have been blessed with a surge in applications far greater than anything they expected, and, as a result, accommodations for applications deficient in one area or another have been far and few between.

I hope you didn't take "punishment" literally, because that's certainly not how I meant it. I meant, based on everything I have heard, in addition to how this cycle is going, both for my online as well as in person friends, that no allowance will be made for applicants who do not have in person shadowing experiences due to COVID, so long as enough excellent candidates exist who do have it.

Of course, you are correct. I am just a pre-med who knows nothing, so anyone who believes shadowing is not that important should feel free to apply next cycle without any. My understanding is that most schools have a section in their secondaries devoted to explaining any COVID related issues with their application. After all, it is their time, their money, and their cycle. Not mine. That goes without saying. I am just trying to share my uninformed opinion. Everyone is free to take it or not, based on whether anything I say sounds reasonable or not. I am not getting paid either way! :cool:

By the way, you've noted elsewhere that you are a MS4, and that shadowing is not as important as pre-meds think, and that self awareness is key. Just wondering -- how many hours of shadowing did you have when you applied??? If you were successful with none, that would be huge. On the other hand ...
 
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and you get different views from different adcoms and attending physicians. I guess OP's mistake is worse than CA governor having a party at French Laundry and deserves no admission.
Comparing the 2 situations you described are not equivalent, for lack of a better word. Politicians, for the most part, get elected for what they say, not necessarily what they do. The price that Newsom and Cuomo pay for their blatant elitist and lawless behavior is small. OP might pay a higher price for their actions as they have much more at risk than the politicians. I totally agree that hypocrisy abounds during this pandemic. However, getting into med school is the only game in town. Understand the rules and how it's played, or take your ball and go home. I personally don't think OPs behavior makes his/her app DOA, but it's not a good look for him/her when applications are at such a high level. I agree with those above that it will be school and Adcom dependent as to how favorable their application is viewed.
 
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