Dismissed from a US MD school how does this affect chances at AA/PA school?

[champion1]

Hi,

Looking for some guidance on this thread. I was dismissed from a US MD school last year for academic performance. I was a second year medical student who failed two courses infectious disease and neurology and did not pass the makeup exams which led to my dismissal from medical school. I am also in the appeal process of trying to get readmitted for the class this fall to repeat the second year of medical school. I realize there are no guarantees. I was advised to get a lawyer or switch professions entirely.

I am strongly considering pursuing different careers in healthcare such as AA and PA. How badly does a dismissal from a US MD school impact my application to these other professions? I notice there are questions on the application about this matter as well as reporting of transcripts….

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[studentdocmember]

It definitely plays a role.. Especially PA. PA programs are very competitive to get into, requiring way more experience than med school. PA programs also generally require strong grades along par with MD programs, DO programs less so. Anything that can hurt you, will, especially if other equally qualified PA applicants do not have MD dismissals (hint: they don't, or at least most don't)

... So yeah it will impact PA, not sure about AA.
Why not do RN and then become an NP? The nursing field is more forgiving of dismissal from US MD school, but they will still consider your dismissal.
Good luck!

 

[d2305]

You can get in it that's what you want to pursue.

 

[studentdocmember]

You can get in it that's what you want to pursue.

i agree, but it's a pretty steep uphill battle.

 

[GreenHousePub]

How will they know you went to medical school in the first place? Say you were taking a sabbatical or working somewhere.

 

[crazycatlady2020]

I can only speak from my experience as a person with what I would call a "different" career path. I applied for a few direct entry MSN to NP programs at the same time as I applied/interviewed for medical school as I was overall ambivalent about what I wanted to do in general in life but knew I'd benefit from clinical licensure at this point in my career. I already had a masters degree in integrative medicine prior to applying, and while I had to obviously send in transcripts from this when submitting my AMCAS, the MSN-NP programs I applied to did not want transcripts from my previous graduate coursework. My choice to pursue a MSN-NP rather than PA school came from looking at longterm debt to income ratio where my MSN-NP program cost approximately 55k in total.

Life is short. If appealing and finishing med school will make you happy then go for it. I cannot speak to your background affecting PA or AA applications but can speak to other career paths. I don't think your route would deter you from an NP program at all if that's what you wish to pursue, or pursuing a PhD if you are interested in academia or industry work, or even considering something like a clinical research role if you were to transfer some of your credits from med school into a different graduate program to cut down on time (transferring in your existing credits as electives for a MS/MA or PhD would likely be an option). A MSN-NP program would likely not care about your prior academic history given you had a solid undergrad GPA. To my knowledge, a MSN-NP program would likely not accept your med school credits as transfer credits for electives and such but if you got into/completed some medical education, you would easily excel in a MSN program.

 

[studentdocmember]

There is no way that PA programs require grades "along par with MD programs." 99% of PA applicants would not have the grades to get into an allopathic/MD school, which is why they are choosing the PA route. That's not to say that there aren't some smart PA students, but you'd have to be foolish to believe that schools are requiring as strong of grades as MD programs; if that was the case and those PA students had grades like that, nearly all of them would be applying to med school (save the very few who may have personal reasons for wanting to go the PA route over MD).

Actually no you're wrong, PA students have a variety of reasons for going the PA route, i.e: not wanting to go to school for 10+ years, wanting to practice a variety of fields in medicine. Claiming that PA students only go into PA, because they don't have the grades to get into MD school is actually quite presumptuous and assuming of PAs as not academically capable people.
PA school has recently gotten extremely competitive recently and the grades you need to get in are similar to those of MD schools since there are limited PA schools and spots. The limited # of spots pushes the GPA requirements way up. Not only that, you require way more clinical experience than to get into MD schools.
Do a bit more research before calling other out when writing about something you clearly no nothing about.

 

[studentdocmember]

How will they know you went to medical school in the first place? Say you were taking a sabbatical or working somewhere.

I think you have to report it on applications?

 

[90sportsfan]

Actually no you're wrong, PA students have a variety of reasons for going the PA route, i.e: not wanting to go to school for 10+ years, wanting to practice a variety of fields in medicine. Claiming that PA students only go into PA, because they don't have the grades to get into MD school is actually quite presumptuous and assuming of PAs as not academically capable people.
PA school has recently gotten extremely competitive recently and the grades you need to get in are similar to those of MD schools since there are limited PA schools and spots. The limited # of spots pushes the GPA requirements way up. Not only that, you require way more clinical experience than to get into MD schools.
Do a bit more research before calling other out when writing about something you clearly no nothing about.

Give me a break. Why don't you post some stats to back up your ridiculous claim. Do a lot more research before talking about something you clearly no nothing about.

 

[PapaGuava]

Please stay on topic and refrain from personal attacks.

 

[studentdocmember]

Give me a break. Why don't you post some stats to back up your ridiculous claim. Do a lot more research before talking about something you clearly no nothing about.

Actually I did my research, something I can't say you did. The average total GPA of accepted medical students was a 3.73 and the average science GPA of accepted medical students was a 3.66 according to the 2020 AAMC Report Table A-16. The 2020 Physician Assistant Education Association (PAEA) reports cites the average PA matriculants had an average GPA of 3.6 and science GPA of 3.53. For you to say that 99% of PA applicants would not get into MD school is ridiculous and absurd. Maybe take a statistics class, because actually more like 50-60%, not 1% of PA applicants as you claim, would meet the grade requirements to get into MD school. So get YOUR facts straight, because clearly you throw percentages out without a clue as to what they mean. When I say 'on par' I was alluding to the GPAs of PA students are creeping closer and are becoming more similar to the accepted GPA of MD students.

And most people don't choose PA because they don't have the grades for MD school, most choose it because they don't want to spend 10+ years going through medical school and residency/fellowship for a variety of economic, social, and other reasons. Sure some don't meet the marks and have to settle for PA, but to say 99% of PA applicants don't meet the cut off for MD and thus settle for PA school is quite laughable. It's actually also insulting to the intelligence of PAs who are quite smart and valuable members of the health care team.

The number of direct patient contact hours and experience is also significantly higher for PA matriculants vs MD matriculants. Moreover, the mean number of direct patient contact hours, not just volunteer work i.e: nurse, medical assistant for accepted PA students is 4453.6, something accepted MD students do not come close to. So actually more like 80% of MD matriculants would not even get into PA school due to lack of patient experience. Clearly you fail to understand why PA matriculants are stronger candidates overall than MD applicants.

 

[jwk]

As far as AA schools - they're extremely competitive as well. Any and all coursework post-high school is supposed to be reported on applications. Nobody can predict how getting booted from med school will affect your applications, but I can't imagine it's helpful. Coursework in AA and PA programs are quite rigorous - some classes are in with medical students (I took med school physiology in my AA program).

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

My friend quit medical school and got into an AA program.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

I think PA may be less likely. But it's an option with the right connections. Comparing the population who go to PA school and MD/DO school is problematic. They're not the same and as such comparing purely GPAs isn't going to get anywhere.

 

[pamac]

Be wary of AA. Its essentially a niche due to it only being a career in something like 18 states and entities. That's problematic when CRNA's are practicing in all 50 states. You'd be signing on with a field that could go either way. I doubt they would lose ground in states where they are established, but the real question is whether they will usher in a dramatic enough increase in numbers and states. Standing still is like losing ground, and I haven't seen them making huge strides.

If you have the chops to make it into medical school, you'll find a PA program to jump into that doesn't care at all about previous healthcare experience. Most of the programs pay lip service to previous HCE vs grades, and would be thrilled to have you. The HCE bar at the programs that do have standards for that typically count things like being a CNA or a scribe, not gold standard work experience like RN, paramedic, respiratory therapy, etc. They will take a student with great grades over an RT with a 3.2 gpa. I've seen that happen quite a bit. I've heard it from faculty members' lips that they weren't concerned about HCE anywhere near what they are about grades. One particular quote directly to me from a program director: "The studies show that healthcare experience isn't required. I can take a student with good grades and make them into a great PA....".

They do want students who they think won't fail out. So you'll want to make sure you emphasize that point, and have an answer for what happened at med school.

 

[PikminOC]

Op, I think you will be fine whichever route you choose. I am sorry you failed out of medical school. The fact that you got in will help you get into another school.

Premed requirements are rigorous which is also why the GPA for incoming med school may be lower than midlevel school. And the MCAT is a killer test. I hope you update us.

 

[PikminOC]

Can't compare admissions for pa and med school based on gpa for competitiveness.

Most medical schools have a defined set of pre-requisite courses that every pre-medical student must take. PA schools have different pre-requisite courses required for admission – so it is all dependent on the school.

Medical Schools typically require:

Anatomy
General Chemistry
Organic Chemistry
Biology
Biochemistry
Physiology
Physics
Psychology
Sociology
Mathematics
Physician Assistant Schools typically require (can vary):

Anatomy
General Chemistry
Biochemistry
Developmental Psychology
Microbiology
Medical Terminology
Mathematics

 

[gyngyn]

Medical Schools typically require:

Anatomy

None of the CA schools require anatomy.
I took a random sample outside CA and found none, but there might be a few out there somewhere...

 

[Boatswain2PA]

Hi,

Looking for some guidance on this thread. I was dismissed from a US MD school last year for academic performance. I was a second year medical student who failed two courses infectious disease and neurology and did not pass the makeup exams which led to my dismissal from medical school. I am also in the appeal process of trying to get readmitted for the class this fall to repeat the second year of medical school. I realize there are no guarantees. I was advised to get a lawyer or switch professions entirely.

I am strongly considering pursuing different careers in healthcare such as AA and PA. How badly does a dismissal from a US MD school impact my application to these other professions? I notice there are questions on the application about this matter as well as reporting of transcripts….

Well, it's been over a year....what did you do?

I think it would be near impossible to get into a PA program after washing out of med school unless there was an extenuating circumstance behind washing out (emergency, health, etc).

There are NP programs that take anyone with a checkbook, pulse, and computer. Pulse is sometimes optional.

 

[PikminOC]

None of the CA schools require anatomy.
I took a random sample outside CA and found none, but there might be a few out there somewhere...

That's not the point. It's not about one class

Well, it's been over a year....what did you do?

I think it would be near impossible to get into a PA program after washing out of med school unless there was an extenuating circumstance behind washing out (emergency, health, etc).

There are NP programs that take anyone with a checkbook, pulse, and computer. Pulse is sometimes optional.

I haven't found pa programs to be that hard to get into. I see people who fail out of first year undergrad with no further school get into accelerated pa programs.

 

[Boatswain2PA]

I haven't found pa programs to be that hard to get into. I see people who fail out of first year undergrad with no further school get into accelerated pa programs.

I don't have any experience with the accelerated PA programs, however I believe they have lower admission standards for the undergrad portion because if someone doesn't excel there they won't progress to the grad level actual PA program. Could be wrong.

Just the numbers of qualified applicants alone make it hard to get into PA programs. When you have 20 or 30 qualified applicants (great grades in the hard courses, HCE, etc) for every seat, then it's hard to get in

Obviously the MCAT is the big separator for PA vs MD/DO applications

 

[PikminOC]

I don't have any experience with the accelerated PA programs, however I believe they have lower admission standards for the undergrad portion because if someone doesn't excel there they won't progress to the grad level actual PA program. Could be wrong.

Just the numbers of qualified applicants alone make it hard to get into PA programs. When you have 20 or 30 qualified applicants (great grades in the hard courses, HCE, etc) for every seat, then it's hard to get in

Obviously the MCAT is the big separator for PA vs MD/DO applications

And the actual classes MD students are required to take like physics and organic chemistry. So you can't compare the GPA for admission.

Getting into an accelerated ba MD program is very difficult even tho you still have to maintain high grades in undergrad for that too.

 

[Boatswain2PA]

And the actual classes MD students are required to take like physics and organic chemistry. So you can't compare the GPA for admission.

Getting into an accelerated ba MD program is very difficult even tho you still have to maintain high grades in undergrad for that too.

I didn't compare GPAs. You have to have high GPA to get into both. Of course some take most easy-A liberal arts classes (wasn't Scott Weingart a liberal arts student?), but all have to take the hard classes for MD and PA.

Lots (many? Most?) of PA programs require Ochem, but I dont know of any that require physics.

And of course there is the MCAT which is difficult obstacle for MD.

Accelerated MD programs start at undergrad like PA? Or just 3 years vs 4 years?

The accelerated PA programs are really accelerated bachelor's degrees with a promise that if you do well you will matriculate into a graduate PA program. There is absolutely no way to accelerate a standardized rigorous PA program.

 

[PikminOC]

I didn't compare GPAs. You have to have high GPA to get into both. Of course some take most easy-A liberal arts classes (wasn't Scott Weingart a liberal arts student?), but all have to take the hard classes for MD and PA.

Lots (many? Most?) of PA programs require Ochem, but I dont know of any that require physics.

And of course there is the MCAT which is difficult obstacle for MD.

Accelerated MD programs start at undergrad like PA? Or just 3 years vs 4 years?

The accelerated PA programs are really accelerated bachelor's degrees with a promise that if you do well you will matriculate into a graduate PA program. There is absolutely no way to accelerate a standardized rigorous PA program.

Yes there are many ba MD programs. They start in undergrad

 

[champion1]

So an update. I was readmitted to the class of 2024, but was later dismissed. I am currently in the process of applying to AA schools. I haven't submitted all my materials yet, but will repost with an update of how this process went.

 

[RespectTheChemistry]

So an update. I was readmitted to the class of 2024, but was later dismissed. I am currently in the process of applying to AA schools. I haven't submitted all my materials yet, but will repost with an update of how this process went.

I'm sorry to hear of your dismissal. That must have been really hard.

I wish you the best of luck. <3 Keep us posted if you'd like.

 

[medschoolapplicant101.]

How will they know you went to medical school in the first place? Say you were taking a sabbatical or working somewhere.

Same question.
Poster, please Lee us posted on your progress please. Good luck ❤️

 

[lumya]

Same question.
Poster, please Lee us posted on your progress please. Good luck ❤️

Highly recommend not lying about attending other graduate schools. When I applied for medical school, it asked that I list all courses I took even if it's not part of a program and I had to attest that it was accurate to the best of my knowledge.

Pretty sure the PA program have similar requirements for reporting and getting caught in a lie is much harder to talk your way out of than explaining why you didn't finish an MD program.

 

[Anistole]

I formerly participated in the admissions process for a relatively well regarded PA program (1500 apps for ~35 seats) and here are my thoughts (for anyone who may come across this thread at a later date).

1) Do not lie about your academic background. When we ask for your transcripts for all of your previous coursework, we mean it and we have ways of figuring out if we are being mislead. You will have some interviewers ask you point blank about whether you have ever taken the MCAT (the PA centralized application requires this response) - again, do not lie. This continues on when our financial aid department runs your credit report to assess your eligibility for financial aid (so if you have previous school loans - that will be known).
2) To my knowledge, we accepted two students who were dismissed from US medical schools and neither ended up finishing our program. Both incredibly bright people but there was obviously something else wrong.
3) If you do choose to apply to PA school, make sure you are able to articulate why PA. You can imagine many applicants are people who did well in school but had a poor performance on the MCAT, or mom/dad is a physician and told them to apply. The interview sniffs that out because PA programs would like kids who want to be PAs.

I do hope your current path is working out for you, OP. Life throws many curveballs and I'm sorry it threw you one.

 

[medschoolapplicant101.]

Highly recommend not lying about attending other graduate schools. When I applied for medical school, it asked that I list all courses I took even if it's not part of a program and I had to attest that it was accurate to the best of my knowledge.

Pretty sure the PA program have similar requirements for reporting and getting caught in a lie is much harder to talk your way out of than explaining why you didn't finish an MD program.

100% that was my thought as well.

 

[champion1]

So I had 4 interviews to AA school but no acceptance. Contacted them and they said that it was due to my poor interview skills and my interpersonal skills, not
My med school dismissal. Seems that I have a shot for next year if I decide to reapply AA.

 

[EthylMethylMan]

... they said that it was due to my poor interview skills and my interpersonal skills...

Did they really say that your interpersonal skills were a problem? Enough so that it was the primary reason for your rejection after they only met with you for the duration of an interview day? If this really is the case, then this is a bigger issue than I think you realize. Interview skills can be improved upon with some coaching, but interpersonal problems are a different beast. If you interview next year and continue to give off the impression that you have poor interpersonal skills, no professional school in the health care field is going to want you. This is a team sport where people's health is at stake. You gotta be able to work well in a team. Do you have some idea as to what they might have been referring to when they said "interpersonal skills"? Were you rude to faculty, staff, or other interviewees at the programs? Were you arrogant? Did you exhibit some socially awkward or otherwise unfavorable habits? You need to figure out the exact nature of this issue and stomp it out.

 

[xffan624]

So I had 4 interviews to AA school but no acceptance. Contacted them and they said that it was due to my poor interview skills and my interpersonal skills, not
My med school dismissal. Seems that I have a shot for next year if I decide to reapply AA.

Not if you don't seriously address what they said. I can't imagine how egregious the issue is if they actually told you that was the reason for rejection (instead of some vague BS reason), but it must be pretty bad. The fact that you would think that you still have a shot after they told you that instead of feeling crestfallen and devastated as most of us would be is also a glaring red flag. Please consult with a trusted mentor or friend and tell them what you told us before you even think about reapplying.

 

[Faefly]

Hi,

Looking for some guidance on this thread. I was dismissed from a US MD school last year for academic performance. I was a second year medical student who failed two courses infectious disease and neurology and did not pass the makeup exams which led to my dismissal from medical school. I am also in the appeal process of trying to get readmitted for the class this fall to repeat the second year of medical school. I realize there are no guarantees. I was advised to get a lawyer or switch professions entirely.

I am strongly considering pursuing different careers in healthcare such as AA and PA. How badly does a dismissal from a US MD school impact my application to these other professions? I notice there are questions on the application about this matter as well as reporting of transcripts….

Lawyer up.. Fight fight fight, Hopefully you are allowed to repeat the year
but if you were not allowed, hopefully you get into the program you want.
best of luck!

 

[The kitchen sink]

To the postor who said this:

The number of direct patient contact hours and experience is also significantly higher for PA matriculants vs MD matriculants. Moreover, the mean number of direct patient contact hours, not just volunteer work i.e: nurse, medical assistant for accepted PA students is 4453.6, something accepted MD students do not come close to. So actually more like 80% of MD matriculants would not even get into PA school due to lack of patient experience. Clearly you fail to understand why PA matriculants are stronger candidates overall than MD applicants.



The fallacy of you equating ‘direct patient contact hours’ to the practice of medicine as some sort of step ahead of a MD/DO matriculant is laughable. Scribing and being a medical assistant do not translate. Bedside nursing followed by ‘500 hours’ of clinical rotations during your NP do not translate.

However, PA and MD programs are both highly competitive and will continue to be.

The first thing to tell individuals entering these professions is that they are increasingly being run by CMGs, private equities and hospital corporations. The mom and pop private practices are dying or already dead. The majority of you will be employees regardless of what path you take. Respectfully that is the most important thing that future applicants should know.

 

[Anistole]

To the postor who said this:

The number of direct patient contact hours and experience is also significantly higher for PA matriculants vs MD matriculants. Moreover, the mean number of direct patient contact hours, not just volunteer work i.e: nurse, medical assistant for accepted PA students is 4453.6, something accepted MD students do not come close to. So actually more like 80% of MD matriculants would not even get into PA school due to lack of patient experience. Clearly you fail to understand why PA matriculants are stronger candidates overall than MD applicants.



The fallacy of you equating ‘direct patient contact hours’ to the practice of medicine as some sort of step ahead of a MD/DO matriculant is laughable. Scribing and being a medical assistant do not translate. Bedside nursing followed by ‘500 hours’ of clinical rotations during your NP do not translate.

However, PA and MD programs are both highly competitive and will continue to be.

The first thing to tell individuals entering these professions is that they are increasingly being run by CMGs, private equities and hospital corporations. The mom and pop private practices are dying or already dead. The majority of you will be employees regardless of what path you take. Respectfully that is the most important thing that future applicants should know.

I think you added a lot more meaning than what was actually said... the hours thing is true. The PA profession was, and still is, a second profession for many people. You will be screened out of the application process without > 2,000 hours or more of direct patient contact hours (meaning paid hours generally). That is more than you need to apply to medical school. That is true and a former MD matriculant hoping to go into PA school needs to know that if they would like a successful application.

Bringing up NPs because he said that? Gosh they live rent free in the heads of so many people on here.

 

[champion1]

I got an acceptance to an accelerated BSN program. I talked to many admissions counselors at accelerated BSN programs and they are very forgiving of my med school dismissal. The school accepted me without an interview.

 

[jwk]

I got an acceptance to an accelerated BSN program. I talked to many admissions counselors at accelerated BSN programs and they are very forgiving of my med school dismissal. The school accepted me without an interview.

Good luck. Glad you found a path forward.

 

[Splenda88]

I got an acceptance to an accelerated BSN program. I talked to many admissions counselors at accelerated BSN programs and they are very forgiving of my med school dismissal. The school accepted me without an interview.

Why didn't you try DO? I heard it happened before.

Nothing come close to MD/DO in term of $$$, flexibility and prestige.

I was a RN and glad that I did not pursue the NP route.

Our hospital just banned PA/NP/CRNA from getting into the physician dining room.. Only MD/DO/DPM are allowed to have free food.

 

[deleted721365]

Why didn't you try DO? I heard it happened before.

Nothing come close to MD/DO in term of $$$, flexibility and prestige.

I was a RN and glad that I did not pursue the NP route.

Our hospital just banned PA/NP/CRNA from getting into the physician dining room.. Only MD/DO/DPM are allowed to have free food.

Thank God. It’s a PHYSICIAN dining hall after all

 

[call1800doctorb]

Actually I did my research, something I can't say you did. The average total GPA of accepted medical students was a 3.73 and the average science GPA of accepted medical students was a 3.66 according to the 2020 AAMC Report Table A-16. The 2020 Physician Assistant Education Association (PAEA) reports cites the average PA matriculants had an average GPA of 3.6 and science GPA of 3.53. For you to say that 99% of PA applicants would not get into MD school is ridiculous and absurd. Maybe take a statistics class, because actually more like 50-60%, not 1% of PA applicants as you claim, would meet the grade requirements to get into MD school. So get YOUR facts straight, because clearly you throw percentages out without a clue as to what they mean. When I say 'on par' I was alluding to the GPAs of PA students are creeping closer and are becoming more similar to the accepted GPA of MD students.

And most people don't choose PA because they don't have the grades for MD school, most choose it because they don't want to spend 10+ years going through medical school and residency/fellowship for a variety of economic, social, and other reasons. Sure some don't meet the marks and have to settle for PA, but to say 99% of PA applicants don't meet the cut off for MD and thus settle for PA school is quite laughable. It's actually also insulting to the intelligence of PAs who are quite smart and valuable members of the health care team.

The number of direct patient contact hours and experience is also significantly higher for PA matriculants vs MD matriculants. Moreover, the mean number of direct patient contact hours, not just volunteer work i.e: nurse, medical assistant for accepted PA students is 4453.6, something accepted MD students do not come close to. So actually more like 80% of MD matriculants would not even get into PA school due to lack of patient experience. Clearly you fail to understand why PA matriculants are stronger candidates overall than MD applicants.

I am neither an MD/DO nor a PA. PA school has an easier set of prerequisites (no organic chemistry, no physics) and does not require the MCAT, a difficult test. Nothing against PAs but it is different than getting into medical school.