Distance Education Pathways...? (LECOM, Creighton)

[Coati]

Hello,

What are these programs actually like? The pre-matriculation modules seem pretty long, are they necessary?

- Are the classes able to be recorded?
- Is attendance actually "mandatory" or can you study on your own time?
- How well would you rate the curriculum overall?
- How are the professors?

I understand these are subjective to each student, so lets speak in general terms.

Any and all feedback is appreciated.

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[randompharm]

Do you not know the state of Pharmacy currently (well, the past 5-7 years really)? No offense, just curious. There is 0 ROI and spending 200k (before living expenses) on an online program is a sure way to regret. There are many ways to get the same or higher salary (current new grad salaries for PharmDs are 45-50/hr), with much less than 6-10 years of schooling, much less or little/no debt, and the mental stress. It’s also the worst projected profession and ranked last in healthcare. I know this doesn’t answer your question, but hopefully it gets you thinking a bit.

 

[JustFillIt]

Hello,

What are these programs actually like? The pre-matriculation modules seem pretty long, are they necessary?

- Are the classes able to be recorded?
- Is attendance actually "mandatory" or can you study on your own time?
- How well would you rate the curriculum overall?
- How are the professors?

I understand these are subjective to each student, so lets speak in general terms.

Any and all feedback is appreciated.

For the love of all that is holy (or unholy if that’s your thing) - don’t even entertain the answer to this question.

Get a job at Panda Express and work toward store manager. Thank me later.

Pharmacy has left me with heart failure and snorting lines of Dogecoin in the hopes that I dig myself out of this hole. Do you want this to happen to you?

 

[mentos]

There are easier ways to blow 200k.

 

[Dred Pirate]

There are easier ways to blow 200k.

and more fun.

 

[steveysmith54]

why not study pottery or welding online instead?

 

[Xenophylia]

I curse choosing this profession every waking moment of my existence. And yet Satan- in his infinite wisdom- keeps coming up with new ways to seduce the unwary into throwing their lives away.

 

[RxPreceptor]

There are easier ways to blow 200k.

Cocaine, hookers, high end autos…all solid investments

 

[JustFillIt]

I curse choosing this profession every waking moment of my existence. And yet Satan- in his infinite wisdom- keeps coming up with new ways to seduce the unwary into throwing their lives away.

Maybe we have been condemned to eternal torment?

Omg…..

 

[Xenophylia]

Yeah I can only imagine what I've done to deserve this. It must have been horrific.

 

[mentos]

What's next, online medical degree?

 

[Dred Pirate]

I wonder how many of these new posters read the threads they start and actual say “naw. I am not doing this ****”.

 

[Coati]

Do you not know the state of Pharmacy currently (well, the past 5-7 years really)? No offense, just curious. There is 0 ROI and spending 200k (before living expenses) on an online program is a sure way to regret. There are many ways to get the same or higher salary (current new grad salaries for PharmDs are 45-50/hr), with much less than 6-10 years of schooling, much less or little/no debt, and the mental stress. It’s also the worst projected profession and ranked last in healthcare. I know this doesn’t answer your question, but hopefully it gets you thinking a bit.

As mentioned in the OP, any and all feedback appreciated.

I for sure will not claim to be an expert on the reality of the field, but I had the opportunity to speak with older Pharm.D's a few years ago who had basically said the same (at that time), cant imagine its better now. The field is ultra saturated, as with many other healthcare professions. IMHO, so many MD's out there who couldn't care less about their patients either.

The online programs technically get you a Pharm.D and licensure, and for sure there is some weight to that. Whether it is worth the stress or not, that is a different question.

Thanks again!

 

[Coati]

For the love of all that is holy (or unholy if that’s your thing) - don’t even entertain the answer to this question.

Get a job at Panda Express and work toward store manager. Thank me later.

Pharmacy has left me with heart failure and snorting lines of Dogecoin in the hopes that I dig myself out of this hole. Do you want this to happen to you?

Lol.. lets all take a bump for Doge!

Thank you for your humor, and no.. preferably I'd like to avoid HF and Doge addiction.

 

[Coati]

why not study pottery or welding online instead?

Lol or both!

 

[Coati]

What's next, online medical degree?

Never say never...

 

[Coati]

Cocaine, hookers, high end autos…all solid investments

Can you be my preceptor? lol

 

[Coati]

Basically what all of you are conveying is that this is not a good investment, or a good idea...

If you dont mind me asking? What areas do all of you work in: retail, hospital, industry, own business, something completely else?

 

[randompharm]

As mentioned in the OP, any and all feedback appreciated.

I for sure will not claim to be an expert on the reality of the field, but I had the opportunity to speak with older Pharm.D's a few years ago who had basically said the same (at that time), cant imagine its better now. The field is ultra saturated, as with many other healthcare professions. IMHO, so many MD's out there who couldn't care less about their patients either.

The online programs technically get you a Pharm.D and licensure, and for sure there is some weight to that. Whether it is worth the stress or not, that is a different question.

Thanks again!

No problem, just to add:

Other comparable fields, like PA/CRNA, etc. which are very lucrativ/have substantial ROI (obviously job requirements are not the same) with less schooling typically are not saturated. PAs are still at 31% job growth and ranked as the best profession in the field, CRNA, etc. have similar outlooks, while pharmacy is at -2% and is the worst projected profession/ranked last. Both of these have grown to annual salaries of 100k+ bonuses at minimum out of school. New grad pharmacists are still at 45-50/hr (75-80k) with 150-200k debt (300k in Cali is common).

People try to claim that PAs and CRNA, etc. are going to get as saturated as pharmacy soon, that is extremely unlikely (and per BLS/HRSA projections due to 1) severely controlled class sizes of ~35 2) extreme competitiveness (most PharmDs don’t stand a chance of getting into PA or similar with the way pharmacy has been decreasing enrollment standards) 3) strong unions.

 

[randompharm]

Basically what all of you are conveying is that this is not a good investment, or a good idea...

If you dont mind me asking? What areas do all of you work in: retail, hospital, industry, own business, something completely else?

If you are asking in the sense to get the odds at which you might succeed/what fields are lucrative, it really doesn’t matter for a couple of reasons:

1) 80% of jobs are in retail (most students despite trying and wanting to end up elsewhere and believe they are the exception and can play the game have no option but to go into retail). 45-50/hr is the new grad rate with 28-32 hours (and they’re cutting again), or 75-80k (after you spent 6-10 years in school and 150-200k debt).

2) 1% (~200 PharmDs) made it into industry in 2021 out of 15,000 students. No offense, however it’s highly unlikely you get a job in industry based on the data and how difficult it is (albeit lucrative). If you’re betting 6-10 years of school and 150-200k debt with the hope of entering industry, it will lead to disappointment.

3) The rest are scattered in hospitals, and some other comfortable but lower paying positions. Hospital requires 1-2 years of residency, and that’s becoming more and more of a requirement. Pay is good (as you can see some people here made good money but admit they know they are an exception, which is true), but you’d be giving up another 1-2 years of opportunity cost and even PGYs are having hard time getting jobs. Also, consider some of these high salaries are mostly in Cali, where 150k is not much, and 90-100k is about the poverty line. The other comfortable positions are paying 30-40/hr which after 6-10 years oof schooling and 150-200k requires no explanation as to the nonexistent ROI (even by normal standards and if pharmacy school was free, opprtunity cost of 6-10 years for the conditions, pay, etc. and being the worst projected profession and last ranked in healthcare, the ROI is still non existent).

There many other healthcare professions with schools who control class sizes, are actually competitive so not anyone is getting in, have strong unions, less debt/opportunity cost and earn just as much and more given the new grad rates, with much more mental friendly positions (many pharmacy schools now teach suicide prevention in the curriculum).

 

[RxPreceptor]

Can you be my preceptor? lol

Yeah I’m not intoxicated/brainwashed enough from APhA money, power, etc. to be considered “professional” enough

but for real, I don’t take on teaching/preceptor role anymore due to how god awful of a learning environment retail has become

 

[mentos]

Basically what all of you are conveying is that this is not a good investment, or a good idea...

If you dont mind me asking? What areas do all of you work in: retail, hospital, industry, own business, something completely else?

Worked retail and it was terrible, I'm never doing that **** again. Picked up a per diem hospital job and gave up my weekends for 2 years, hoping to switch to hospital. A full time spot never opened up cause no one ever leaves. Missed out on a lot of fun and memories for nothing. Took me 4 years to escape retail to a LTC and it's just okay now.

 

[Xenophylia]

And that's LTC in a nutshell. It's just "ok". Mostly because it's not retail. And sadly, LTC is a job many pharmacists eventually aspire to do, especially after doing time in retail.

And yes, I'm in LTC. It's just "ok"..... I'd quit the "profession" entirely if I had to go back into retail.

 

[Coati]

And that's LTC in a nutshell. It's just "ok". Mostly because it's not retail. And sadly, LTC is a job many pharmacists eventually aspire to do, especially after doing time in retail.

And yes, I'm in LTC. It's just "ok"..... I'd quit the "profession" entirely if I had to go back into retail.

I can sense the sorrow... it's never too late to "re-invent" yourself. Follow that little voice in your head 👍

 

[RXDOC1986]

As mentioned in the OP, any and all feedback appreciated.

I for sure will not claim to be an expert on the reality of the field, but I had the opportunity to speak with older Pharm.D's a few years ago who had basically said the same (at that time), cant imagine its better now. The field is ultra saturated, as with many other healthcare professions. IMHO, so many MD's out there who couldn't care less about their patients either.

The online programs technically get you a Pharm.D and licensure, and for sure there is some weight to that. Whether it is worth the stress or not, that is a different question.

Thanks again!

I am as OLD a Pharm.D. as you would ever find. The profession of pharmacy has provided a very, very nice lifestyle for me and my family. I have really enjoyed my 36 + years as a Pharmacist and would do it again, if I was back in the "golden age" of pharmacy. In 2022, I would seriously question the judgement and intellect of anyone wanting to go into pharmacy.

 

[GrandTheftAutumn]

Don't listen to these haters.
They just can't see the possibilities are doublin'



Hahaha. Haha. Ha...

 

[RXDOC1986]

Don't listen to these haters.
They just can't see the possibilities are doublin'



Hahaha. Haha. Ha...

This video must be a parody or satire, it can't be real? Is it? I am sorry, where and what is Chapman University? I must know. Can these be real pharmacy students, paid tuition and fees? Every one is Asian, with one Indian student (I can say it because I am an immigrant). It just can't be real, I am going to watch it again!

 

[randompharm]

This video must be a parody or satire, it can't be real? Is it? I am sorry, where and what is Chapman University? I must know. Can these be real pharmacy students, paid tuition and fees? Every one is Asian, with one Indian student (I can say it because I am an immigrant). It just can't be real, I am going to watch it again!

It’s real, and that is what the schools are preying on.. young, naive, and ignorant. I see the students the schools nearby are getting and it’s ridiculous, 20 year olds with no real world experience, readily eating the BS the schools are feeding them, who carefully selected them to make sure they ignore the “haters” and spread the good word of the “provider status”.

 

[Coati]

I can say, I haven't been overly impressed with the talent pools in my rounds of interviewing with different programs. That does not mean the schools are bad though

 

[randompharm]

I can say, I haven't been overly impressed with the talent pools in my rounds of interviewing with different programs. That does not mean the schools are bad though

It does not mean the schools are bad? Are you a prospective student (only way that statement would make sense)? Not only are they bad, they’re resorting to criminally lying to these kids to hook them (some of these schools are being sued), and most of these kids don’t get the real world experience and/or maturity to realize it until they graduate when many of them realize they’ve made a mistake and were rick rolled for 6-10 years of school and 150-200k debt. Unlike every other field in healthcare, they are not controlling class sizes and only care about the $$, which is how pharmacy got to be the worst projected and worst ranked in healthcare profession. They are terrified of having to close as applications decreased from 73,000 to 39,000 from 2017-2021 that they are taking absolutely anyone, acceptance rate is 90%+. They’ve removed PCAT, bachelors, pre reqs, many are 2.0 GPAs, and they are now moving to “holistic grading” (where no GPA exists and everything in pharmacy school is satisfactory/unsatisfactory). The culture is so bad and suicide rates have increased so much, that due to liability, they’re now forced to teach suicide prevention int he curriculum. I can keep going but this should paint a decent picture.

Edit: not attacking you, just genuinely curious.

 

[Dred Pirate]

I can say, I haven't been overly impressed with the talent pools in my rounds of interviewing with different programs. That does not mean the schools are bad though

I have noticed an definitely decreased quality of candidates- I do debate thou - is that because as I get older and more experienced, the same new grad looks worse to me than when I only had 5 years of experience?

 

[Dred Pirate]

It does not mean the schools are bad? Are you a prospective student (only way that statement would make sense)? Not only are they bad, they’re resorting to criminally lying to these kids to hook them (some of these schools are being sued), and most of these kids don’t get the real world experience and/or maturity to realize it until they graduate when many of them realize they’ve made a mistake and were rick rolled for 6-10 years of school and 150-200k debt. Unlike every other field in healthcare, they are not controlling class sizes and only care about the $$, which is how pharmacy got to be the worst projected and worst ranked in healthcare profession. They are terrified of having to close as applications decreased from 73,000 to 39,000 from 2017-2021 that they are taking absolutely anyone, acceptance rate is 90%+. They’ve removed PCAT, bachelors, pre reqs, many are 2.0 GPAs, and they are now moving to “holistic grading” (where no GPA exists and everything in pharmacy school is satisfactory/unsatisfactory). The culture is so bad and suicide rates have increased so much, that due to liability, they’re now forced to teach suicide prevention int he curriculum. I can keep going but this should paint a decent picture.

Edit: not attacking you, just genuinely curious.

I think where they are going - the eduction of the schools isn't bad (the scam they are running is a different arguement all together - and I agree with your points) - but if your quality of applicants is so bad, you can have a great educational curriculum, but it doesn't mean the poor students can abosorb it - the old "you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make them drink" arguement.

 

[steveysmith54]

What's next, online medical degree?

Medical profession has too much respect for themselves to do that.

 

[randompharm]

I have noticed an definitely decreased quality of candidates- I do debate thou - is that because as I get older and more experienced, the same new grad looks worse to me than when I only had 5 years of experience?

I don’t think so to be honest, GPAs in nearby schools are getting significantly lower for newer classes, and the crowd significantly younger with each class. My guess is the younger (20 yo) crowd are easier to mold/BS and retain, but who knows. I literally see posts of their orientations and they look like babies, some are fresh out of highschool.

 

[Coati]

It does not mean the schools are bad? Are you a prospective student (only way that statement would make sense)? Not only are they bad, they’re resorting to criminally lying to these kids to hook them (some of these schools are being sued), and most of these kids don’t get the real world experience and/or maturity to realize it until they graduate when many of them realize they’ve made a mistake and were rick rolled for 6-10 years of school and 150-200k debt. Unlike every other field in healthcare, they are not controlling class sizes and only care about the $$, which is how pharmacy got to be the worst projected and worst ranked in healthcare profession. They are terrified of having to close as applications decreased from 73,000 to 39,000 from 2017-2021 that they are taking absolutely anyone, acceptance rate is 90%+. They’ve removed PCAT, bachelors, pre reqs, many are 2.0 GPAs, and they are now moving to “holistic grading” (where no GPA exists and everything in pharmacy school is satisfactory/unsatisfactory). The culture is so bad and suicide rates have increased so much, that due to liability, they’re now forced to teach suicide prevention int he curriculum. I can keep going but this should paint a decent picture.

Edit: not attacking you, just genuinely curious.

As stated previously, any and all feedback is appreciated.

You could consider myself a prospect, if you will, however will choose to leave it there. I see your points, and definitely after sitting in on some of these video calls, it is clear that they are indeed letting everyone in to these programs.

My comment was not from all of the valid points in which you proposed, but rather the point that just because these programs are lowering the bar significantly, it does not necessarily mean that the curriculum in itself is bad.

Thank you for the feedback on this topic

 

[Coati]

I have noticed an definitely decreased quality of candidates- I do debate thou - is that because as I get older and more experienced, the same new grad looks worse to me than when I only had 5 years of experience?

I'm going to say that the average talent is very low these days....

 

[Flavia28]

Why is everyone Asian in that video?! That’s just racist.

 

[Zelda0840]

Hello,

What are these programs actually like? The pre-matriculation modules seem pretty long, are they necessary?

- Are the classes able to be recorded?
- Is attendance actually "mandatory" or can you study on your own time?
- How well would you rate the curriculum overall?
- How are the professors?

I understand these are subjective to each student, so lets speak in general terms.

Any and all feedback is appreciated.

I can only speak to Creighton’s program. I don’t remember any pre-matriculation modules. There was one math assessment during orientation. It was pretty simple.

Some sessions are mandatory for presentations and whatnot, but most were not. All lectures were recorded. I worked a daytime corporate job and had a small child. It was stressful, but doable. It’s probably not for everyone. I enjoyed going at my own pace, watching lectures on double speed, fast forwarding through stuff that I didn’t feel was necessary, etc. If you are the type of person that learns best in a group, it’s probably going to feel isolating but for me, it was nice to skip all the superfluous stuff. All lab work was done in person, on campus, in the summer. Exams can be scheduled within a timeframe on exam day and are proctored.

I don’t have any other curriculum to compare it to, but I believe I am a competent pharmacist and did not have any issues passing the licensing exams. Professors were all genuinely kind and I still keep in touch with a few. The #1 con is cost. It’s a very expensive school. Working a decent paying job during school was the only way I could make it work, but it was hard.

 

[Coati]

I can only speak to Creighton’s program. I don’t remember any pre-matriculation modules. There was one math assessment during orientation. It was pretty simple.

Some sessions are mandatory for presentations and whatnot, but most were not. All lectures were recorded. I worked a daytime corporate job and had a small child. It was stressful, but doable. It’s probably not for everyone. I enjoyed going at my own pace, watching lectures on double speed, fast forwarding through stuff that I didn’t feel was necessary, etc. If you are the type of person that learns best in a group, it’s probably going to feel isolating but for me, it was nice to skip all the superfluous stuff. All lab work was done in person, on campus, in the summer. Exams can be scheduled within a timeframe on exam day and are proctored.

I don’t have any other curriculum to compare it to, but I believe I am a competent pharmacist and did not have any issues passing the licensing exams. Professors were all genuinely kind and I still keep in touch with a few. The #1 con is cost. It’s a very expensive school. Working a decent paying job during school was the only way I could make it work, but it was hard.

Thank you for this, great information on your experience. I think now they make classes "mandatory" even though they are recorded. This is what I've seen and hear. My biggest issue is the time constraint, as I also have a very demanding schedule and class 3-4 hours a day wouldnt work. The material isn't really a concern for me.

Love the fact that you can comment on how you are able to work a 40/week job, manage children, a family, presumably a house, and still have the ability to make your PharmD cirriculum work. SO many people would love to put this type of story down as "impossible". Happy for your success

 

[PrincessSnow]

LECOM has a RN to PharmD Bridge program.
Successful applicants to the RN to PharmD Bridge program will:

• Be a Registered Nurse, and have earned their undergraduate coursework from a regionally accredited U.S. institution.
• Must have at least two years of licensed practice experience
• Submit two letters of recommendation – one must be from a pharmacist
• Complete an online application on our LECOM Portal
• Submit official transcripts to the School of Pharmacy office of admissions

Appears to only have a fall and spring semester. Only 24 credits! Tuition only: $14,940

RN to PharmD Bridge Program

The RN to PharmD Bridge program is a pathway developed by the LECOM School of Pharmacy specifically for Registered Nurses interested in expanding their knowledge and employment opportunities in the field of pharmacy.

lecom.edu

 

[Dred Pirate]

LECOM has a RN to PharmD Bridge program.
Successful applicants to the RN to PharmD Bridge program will:

• Be a Registered Nurse, and have earned their undergraduate coursework from a regionally accredited U.S. institution.
• Must have at least two years of licensed practice experience
• Submit two letters of recommendation – one must be from a pharmacist
• Complete an online application on our LECOM Portal
• Submit official transcripts to the School of Pharmacy office of admissions

Appears to only have a fall and spring semester. Only 24 credits! Tuition only: $14,940

RN to PharmD Bridge Program

The RN to PharmD Bridge program is a pathway developed by the LECOM School of Pharmacy specifically for Registered Nurses interested in expanding their knowledge and employment opportunities in the field of pharmacy.

lecom.edu

so I emailed them to ask- this is basically a one year to get your pre-reqs - then you can start pharmacy school. So that isn't that bad of a program - although the website is VERY misleading

 

[steveysmith54]

so I emailed them to ask- this is basically a one year to get your pre-reqs - then you can start pharmacy school. So that isn't that bad of a program - although the website is VERY misleading

So what does the RN degree do for the applicant? Reduce the preq requirement or credit for completing p1 of Pharm school?

 

[Dred Pirate]

So what does the RN degree do for the applicant? Reduce the preq requirement or credit for completing p1 of Pharm school?

basically you reduce your pre-req year from 2 to 1 - not sure what is really different than a RN taking specific pre-reqs at a local community college - other than this is a money grab from LECOM