DNP (doctor of nursing practice) vs. DO/MD

[deleted432032]

Is the DNP a doctorate degree? Yes. Should those that hold it call them selves doctor in a medical setting? No. Why? Because the term doctor in a medical setting is associated with a physician. Please let's not confuse a medical setting with a non medical settings, such as a psychologist or dentists office (yes, those may be poor choices for examples). I have never heard anyone from those settings call themselves or refer to them selves as a doctor outside of their respective areas.

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[x26bac]

dnps arent doctors they are NURSES

 

[zenman]

dnps arent doctors they are NURSES

Anyone with a doctorate degree is a "doctor." You, as someone who probably doesn't know any better, are probably thinking about "physicians."

 

[sylvanthus]

Nope, don't drink more than a 6 pack a year. It should be simple for even you to see. You have a hammer; I have many other tools.

Really? You don't know a thing about me. See, this is your problem, you assume you have more tools than other people without knowing anything about them or their experience. That is just plain ridiculous and the fact that you cannot see that is telling. You do nothing more than make DNPs look ridiculous, so by all means keep posting on here. You do yourself more harm than good and it amuses me greatly.

 

[deleted103644]

You're trained in one area, correct, so that is your world view. I just happen to have multiple viewpoints and can use the one most appropriate for the job. Like I said, you only have a hammer while I have multiple tools. Sorry this is so frustrating for you. Think very hard about why more people turn to alternative practitioners than allopathic medicine. People would not go elsewhere if they were happy at your place of business.

The whole point of "Western" medicine is that it doesn't value tradition for its own sake. If an alternative therapy can be shown to be effective, "Western" medicine will adopt it. Maybe an ego or two will be bruised, but do what?

If a therapy is not adopted, it is either unproven or ineffective. If you believe your alternative therapies have merit, test them. There's no point in trying to maintain an alternative to normal medicine, just incorporate things that work and jettison garbage.

 

[Veritas86]

Maybe we should all be Reiki practitioners and fling freakin' FIRE from our fingertips.

And the studies could be published in a journal entitled Reiki Economic$

 

[Bernoull]

Anyone with a doctorate degree is a "doctor." You, as someone who probably doesn't know any better, are probably thinking about "physicians."

A NURSE with a doctorate is STILL A NURSE!! I'm a former engineer, and one doesn't stop being an engineer after getting a PhD!! There's a difference b/t one's profession and level of educational attainment WITHIN that profession. In a clinical setting, doctor = physician. Yes, lawyers have doctorates (J.D.) but I think everyone would agree that's silly for them to run around calling themselves doctors, doctorate degree notwithstanding. I think everyone should be proud of their profession rather than trying to blur the line and mislead a gullible public.

 

[Maybeknot]

Anyone with a doctorate degree is a "doctor." You, as someone who probably doesn't know any better, are probably thinking about "physicians."

zenman, I'm not sure if English is your first language, so I apologize if this sounds patronizing. In English, multiple words can have multiple meanings. It's up to the conversationalists to determine the specific definition of a word based on context. Therefore, if you were to say that you were in nursing, it's fairly universally understood based on context that you aren't breastfeeding an infant but that you are tending to patients. Similarly, while the salutatory "doctor" can refer to anyone with a doctorate degree, the context implies that the definition of doctor we are referring to is indeed, a physician, surgeon, dentist, etc.

I hope this helps.

 

[jwk]

zenman, I'm not sure if English is your first language, so I apologize if this sounds patronizing. In English, multiple words can have multiple meanings. It's up to the conversationalists to determine the specific definition of a word based on context. Therefore, if you were to say that you were in nursing, it's fairly universally understood based on context that you aren't breastfeeding an infant but that you are tending to patients. Similarly, while the salutatory "doctor" can refer to anyone with a doctorate degree, the context implies that the definition of doctor we are referring to is indeed, a physician, surgeon, dentist, etc.

I hope this helps.

I absolutely LOVE this post!

 

[zenman]

Really? You don't know a thing about me. See, this is your problem, you assume you have more tools than other people without knowing anything about them or their experience. That is just plain ridiculous and the fact that you cannot see that is telling. You do nothing more than make DNPs look ridiculous, so by all means keep posting on here. You do yourself more harm than good and it amuses me greatly.

Actually, I do know that you don't have all the tools I have. And I'm not a DNP so I guess you're still in the dark, lol!

 

[zenman]

The whole point of "Western" medicine is that it doesn't value tradition for its own sake. If an alternative therapy can be shown to be effective, "Western" medicine will adopt it. Maybe an ego or two will be bruised, but do what?

If a therapy is not adopted, it is either unproven or ineffective. If you believe your alternative therapies have merit, test them. There's no point in trying to maintain an alternative to normal medicine, just incorporate things that work and jettison garbage.

I agree but do we have the appropriate knowledge to test alternative therapies? One can argue that they have been tested for many years already in field trials. I don't like to use the term "alternative" and prefer "complementary" as my personal opinion is that allopathic medicine has it's place also. The research psychologist Oakley Gordon says, “It is obvious that if we want to explore how another epistemology differs from our own, then the scientific method--with its roots in our epistemology--will not suffice.”

 

[zenman]

A NURSE with a doctorate is STILL A NURSE!! I'm a former engineer, and one doesn't stop being an engineer after getting a PhD!! There's a difference b/t one's profession and level of educational attainment WITHIN that profession. In a clinical setting, doctor = physician. Yes, lawyers have doctorates (J.D.) but I think everyone would agree that's silly for them to run around calling themselves doctors, doctorate degree notwithstanding. I think everyone should be proud of their profession rather than trying to blur the line and mislead a gullible public.

Well, I was only saying that a person with a doctorate has earned the right to be called "doctor." All of your comments are just additional fluff and already understood. Lawyers are kind of a subset and are called attorneys, lawyers, counselors, scumbags, sharks, etc., while most other doctorates in any other field, and in their own setting are call "doctor." But just FYI I have worked in the hospital in settings where psychologist were call doctor and there never was a problem. But frankly, I wonder why anyone even wastes time arguing about this, or whether or not anyone else has the right to wear a white coat.

 

[zenman]

zenman, I'm not sure if English is your first language, so I apologize if this sounds patronizing. In English, multiple words can have multiple meanings. It's up to the conversationalists to determine the specific definition of a word based on context. Therefore, if you were to say that you were in nursing, it's fairly universally understood based on context that you aren't breastfeeding an infant but that you are tending to patients. Similarly, while the salutatory "doctor" can refer to anyone with a doctorate degree, the context implies that the definition of doctor we are referring to is indeed, a physician, surgeon, dentist, etc.

I hope this helps.

Yes, English is my native language and I do have experience working with 50 cultures so I know how confusing our language is. However, I was being “exact” while you are speaking in generalities. So my comment, “Anyone with a doctorate degree is a “doctor” still stands. A person who calls himself a physician has made it very clear who he is and there should never be any confusion, especially if he is also wearing a white coat, looks distinguished, has a stethoscope around his neck, and is out of the patient’s room in 3 minutes.

 

[zenman]

Maybe we should all be Reiki practitioners and fling freakin' FIRE from our fingertips.

And the studies could be published in a journal entitled Reiki Economic$

Have you tried it? Have you looked at the research on it? Just wait till Dr. Herbert Benson gets hold of it, renames it, and it becomes a well-respected allopathic modality.

 

[AnnoyedByFreud]

A person who calls himself a physician has made it very clear who he is and there should never be any confusion, especially if he is also wearing a white coat, looks distinguished, has a stethoscope around his neck, and is out of the patient’s room in 3 minutes.

 

[sylvanthus]

Thank you for confirming that you are incapable of logical reasoning. Now, back to your shamanistic practice and zen whatever.

 

[Veritas86]

Clinical testing of alternative therapies are inconclusive at the absolute best.

To me, it's the same thing as having people (rabbi, minister, etc) pray over a patient. Sure, it may help in some cases, but the studies I've seen make it sound like its the psychological effect of touch and positive thinking and/or placebo effect.

And I would venture that most people don't believe (in a clinical sense, regardless of their personal beliefs) that prayer should be integrated into medicine as an acceptable form of therapy.

Spin it however, but the fact of the matter is western medicine holds to scientific standards. TCM and similar therapy modalities do not.

 

[deleted103644]

Clinical testing of alternative therapies are inconclusive at the absolute best.

To me, it's the same thing as having people (rabbi, minister, etc) pray over a patient. Sure, it may help in some cases, but the studies I've seen make it sound like its the psychological effect of touch and positive thinking and/or placebo effect.

And I would venture that most people don't believe (in a clinical sense, regardless of their personal beliefs) that prayer should be integrated into medicine as an acceptable form of therapy.

Spin it however, but the fact of the matter is western medicine holds to scientific standards. TCM and similar therapy modalities do not.

If any of that stuff could be proven to work, we'd do it. It hasn't and I don't expect it to be in the future, but the possibility remains there.

 

[group_theory]

Something that is foreign, that is "ancient", that is spiritual - tend to hold a lot of weight and we believe it to be real. It is also why movies tend to romantisize Native American's spiritual heritage, and giving "power" to nature (and depicting action heros who are tuned to these powers with supernatural abilities)

The truth is - some of these things work, some don't. With time, the ones that work survive. How do we know it works - we test it. We don't go based on faith. The concept of testing our beliefs (and discarding those that don't do well to test) is one reason why humans have greatly advanced in the last few hundred years (compare to the thousands of years beforehand). The things that work have made it to modern medicine (willow bark is now aspirin, digitalis is now digoxin, etc)

The fact that the average lifespan of humans have dramatically increased in the last few hundred years is a testament to human achievement - not to some align "Chi" (or Qi), or proper alignment of the spine, or whatnot.

It's through modern advances such as public health, sanitations, vaccinations, antibiotics, that have dramatically improve the lives of many people. Perinatal mortality is fortunately low in this modern era (whereas stillborth, mothers dying, and children not surviving past infancy were relatively common and expected a couple hundred years ago)

 

[Maybeknot]

Yes, English is my native language and I do have experience working with 50 cultures so I know how confusing our language is. However, I was being “exact” while you are speaking in generalities. So my comment, “Anyone with a doctorate degree is a “doctor” still stands. A person who calls himself a physician has made it very clear who he is and there should never be any confusion, especially if he is also wearing a white coat, looks distinguished, has a stethoscope around his neck, and is out of the patient’s room in 3 minutes.

Wow, *50* cultures? Amazing! Do they have nurses pretending to be doctors in all of them?

We can have this argument ad nauseum. The ACCN and whomever can pretend that calling NP's "doctor" is proper and not confusing to patients.... but reality is a very different place (maybe you'd like to visit it sometime?).

 

[sarjasy]

the context implies that the definition of doctor we are referring to is indeed, a physician, surgeon, dentist, etc.

I hope this helps.

Sure does. It is only common sense that when in a clinical setting, a physician, surgeon, dentist, psychologist, optometrist, audiologist, physical therapist, occupational therapist, veterinarian, interns, residents, and chief residents can call themselves "doctor" and the patient perfectly understands what is meant and clearly understands the qualifications of the person treating them. But when a nurse does it, well, that's just confusing, huh, Andee?

 

[Maybeknot]

Sure does. It is only common sense that when in a clinical setting, a physician, surgeon, dentist, psychologist, optometrist, audiologist, physical therapist, occupational therapist, veterinarian, interns, residents, and chief residents can call themselves "doctor" and the patient perfectly understands what is meant and clearly understands the qualifications of the person treating them. But when a nurse does it, well, that's just confusing, huh, Andee?

Exactly. I'm glad we're finally in agreement.

I've never heard of an audiologist referring to themself as a doctor. And I've worked with quite a few of them. I don't think there are many PT or OTs walking into pt rooms and introducing themselves as doctor. And if they did, I'm sure the majority of patients assume that they have an MD instead of a DPT or whatever degree.

 

[sarjasy]

Exactly. I'm glad we're finally in agreement.

I've never heard of an audiologist referring to themself as a doctor. And I've worked with quite a few of them. I don't think there are many PT or OTs walking into pt rooms and introducing themselves as doctor. And if they did, I'm sure the majority of patients assume that they have an MD instead of a DPT or whatever degree.

You simply cherry-picked a couple off the list to address, while failing to address the larger point that in healthcare, there are many who do or can refer to themselves as "doctor" without the SDN outrage that is directed to the DNP. Not surprising. But for the sake of it, perhaps you can help me understand a couple of things. There are others, but let's stick to these two for now.

1) Why isn't it a problem, in regard to patient confusion, when an optometrist and opthamologist, working side-by-side, each refer to themselves as "doctor" to the patients.
2) Why isn't it a problem, in regard to patient confusion, when an intern and an attending walk into a room and introduce themselves as "doctor" to the patient.

 

[Maybeknot]

You simply cherry-picked a couple off the list to address, while failing to address the larger point that in healthcare, there are many who do or can refer to themselves as "doctor" without the SDN outrage that is directed to the DNP. Not surprising. But for the sake of it, perhaps you can help me understand a couple of things. There are others, but let's stick to these two for now.

1) Why isn't it a problem, in regard to patient confusion, when an optometrist and opthamologist, working side-by-side, each refer to themselves as "doctor" to the patients.
2) Why isn't it a problem, in regard to patient confusion, when an intern and an attending walk into a room and introduce themselves as "doctor" to the patient.

OK, fine.

1. It is a problem, but the prevalence of joint ophthalmology-optometry practices in hospitals and clinics makes it less of a problem. The fact that the scope of practices between ophthalmology and optometry differ also decreases the effect of the confusion.
2. Interns and attendings are doctors. By definition. So what's the problem?

Happy?

 

[sarjasy]

1. It is a problem, but the prevalence of joint ophthalmology-optometry practices in hospitals and clinics makes it less of a problem. The fact that the scope of practices between ophthalmology and optometry differ also decreases the effect of the confusion.

Prevalence makes it more tolerable? So if, in say, 10 years, most NP's are doctorates, you will tolerate NP's calling themselves "doctor?" That would make NP's with doctorates, "prevalent" in your words. I am sure you don't mean that, but that is the position you have taken. That doesn't jibe either, though, as you seem to have staked your ground on scope of practice. Does the average patient know the difference in scope of practice between an OMD and an OD? Really? So now you are saying that one with a very limited scope of practice (OD) and one with an unlimited scope of practice (ophthalmologist) can use the same title and you are OK with that?

Interns and attendings are doctors. By definition. So what's the problem?

And DNP's are "by definition" doctors.

Good time to point a couple of things out 1) The term "doctor" was borrowed (to put it nicely) by physicians from theologians. Its real meaning is a term for theologians, meaning "teacher" of the Church. 2) I might also point out that white lab coats were stolen by physicians -- as well -- from scientists. In the late 1800's, physicians were widely regarded as quacks (e.g. blood letting), so when physician's practice began to focus on science, they also co-opted the white lab coat to give themselves credibility. Ironically, it is physicians bashing nurses for "stealing" a title under the ruse of "patient confusion" via deception.

So, with your "attendings and interns are doctors" by definition claim, please help me understand the whole "patient confusion" thing. There is a world of difference between an intern and an attending in qualifications to treat the patient - should not the patient be aware that the fresh-faced, just-out-of-school intern is far less qualified to treat a patient than an attending, despite his/her use of an equivalent "doctor" title?

Happy?

Very.

 

[deleted103644]

Haha, DNPs are as much doctors as lawyers are (JD = doctorate of jurisprudence). Same with Ph.D.s.

I'll start calling DNPs doctors when you start addressing lawyers as doctor. And no, I would never address a PT/OT/audiologist/optometrist/etc as doctor.

Dentists and podiatrists are exceptions because they are medical doctors, they just choose their specialty prior to getting their degrees.

There are two definitions of the word doctor in common use. One refers to the degree, the other refers to the position in the patient care hierarchy. DNPs are deliberately trying to conflate the two.

 

[ChillyRN]

Just thought I'd share:
I applied for a tuition reimbursement award through my employer to help pay for my DNP. The interview was today. I was asked if I would be referring to myself as "Doctor" to the patients. I said no, because they already call me by my first name and it would be very odd to suddenly insist they refer to my by my last name, all titles aside. The medical director said : "I think that is a mistake. You should definitely use the title. I will be very proud to introduce you as Dr _______ to our patients and colleagues when you finish."

So FWIW the medical director of the largest multi-specialty physician owned practice in my state has given the DNP and me his blessing and support (and $15,000 in tuition-woot)! I am consistently congratulated and supported in my educational efforts. really think all the grumbling here on SDN represents the opinion of a minority of physicians. In any event, I am very glad to work where I do!

 

[Boatswain2PA]

I just happen to have multiple viewpoints and can use the one most appropriate for the job. Like I said, you only have a hammer while I have multiple tools. Sorry this is so frustrating for you. Think very hard about why more people turn to alternative practitioners than allopathic medicine. People would not go elsewhere if they were happy at your place of business.

Of course Zenman is the ONLY PERSON ON THE PLANET who has the ability to have more than one viewpoint, or tool, to use on a situation.

While he sits on his lofty throne of enlightenment, we are all simple cavemen still trying to build fire. While he is using his multi-tool to cure mankind of it's ailments, we are reduced to hammering away on our patients with our stone-age tools.

Think very hard about why more people turn to alternative practitioners than allopathic medicine. People would not go elsewhere if they were happy at your place of business.

Those of us who provide real medicine are honest enough to tell our patients when things simply don't work. But sometimes those patients are grasping at straws, which you so willingly sell them.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

I'll start calling DNPs doctors when you start addressing lawyers as doctor. And no, I would never address a PT/OT/audiologist/optometrist/etc as doctor.

Being a med student you are full of piss & vinegar and think you can take over the world, but be careful how you act in a clinical setting around other professionals because word travels quickly. Most clinical folks probably would just shrug off a student, but some may tank you by saying something to your preceptor. Good luck out there.

 

[deleted103644]

Being a med student you are full of piss & vinegar and think you can take over the world, but be careful how you act in a clinical setting around other professionals because word travels quickly. Most clinical folks probably would just shrug off a student, but some may tank you by saying something to your preceptor. Good luck out there.

Don't worry about me, I'll be fine. I treat other professionals with respect, but I'm not going to call a cat a dog just because it thinks it's one.

I have yet to see anyone who is not a physician refer to him/herself as doctor. I wouldn't openly ridicule someone for doing it, but probably would relay it to a superior if patients were involved.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

I have yet to see anyone who is not a physician refer to him/herself as doctor. I wouldn't openly ridicule someone for doing it, but probably would relay it to a superior if patients were involved.

Yeah...you'll be just fine with that approach and attitude. The next time I'm invited to give talk for my dept, I'll be sure to tell the head of the dept to not call me dr. therapist4chnge, as I wouldn't want to inadvertently open myself up to ridicule from medical students. Wait...what do I call myself when I go and teach at the medical school...? Is it okay if I call myself Dr. there, or should I also be worried about ridicule too? I'm going to be joining the faculty of another medical school in a few months....how do I list myself on their university website?!! How am I listed at my current place?! This is just so confusing! I better e-mail a bunch of MS-1 and ask them what I should do, I mean...they are practically doctors.

 

[Maybeknot]

And DNP's are "by definition" doctors.

DNP's are, by self-declaration, doctors...

Good time to point a couple of things out 1) The term "doctor" was borrowed (to put it nicely) by physicians from theologians. Its real meaning is a term for theologians, meaning "teacher" of the Church. 2) I might also point out that white lab coats were stolen by physicians -- as well -- from scientists. In the late 1800's, physicians were widely regarded as quacks (e.g. blood letting), so when physician's practice began to focus on science, they also co-opted the white lab coat to give themselves credibility. Ironically, it is physicians bashing nurses for "stealing" a title under the ruse of "patient confusion" via deception.

So you're pointing out things that happened 100-250 years ago to what's going on now? That's your argument?

So, with your "attendings and interns are doctors" by definition claim, please help me understand the whole "patient confusion" thing. There is a world of difference between an intern and an attending in qualifications to treat the patient - should not the patient be aware that the fresh-faced, just-out-of-school intern is far less qualified to treat a patient than an attending, despite his/her use of an equivalent "doctor" title?

I always introduce myself as Dr. Anders, the ENT resident working under the supervision of Dr. Attending. In my experience, patients don't want to sit through a 2 minute explanation of graduate medical education in this country when they need to have their airway evaluated or their face sewn up. I suppose if the DNP's would introduce themselves as Dr. NP, the nurse who considers themselves equivalent to physicians but has the fraction of the training and no medical degree, then I guess we can agree to a compromise.

Doc-tor. noun. 1. a person licensed to practice medicine, as a physician, surgeon, dentist, or veterinarian.

You want to contradict 250 years of established practice and decide that in the hospital and clinical setting, anyone with a doctorate is a doctor, then fine. There's quite a distinction between an academic appellation and a common noun. Calling oneself "Dr. X, DNP" is different than saying "NP X is a doctor." The former, while technically correct, can be confusing in the clinical setting, and the latter is just plain wrong.

 

[Dranger]

I am not pro DNP or anything but here are the definitions of doctor from Webster (sorry if it is a repost and I didn't list all definitions)

1.: an eminent theologian declared a sound expounder of doctrine by the Roman Catholic Church —called also doctor of the church

2.: a learned or authoritative teacher

3.: person who has earned one of the highest academic degrees (as a PhD) conferred by a university (i.e. end-stage degree for nursing)

4.:a person awarded an honorary doctorate (as an LLD or Litt D) by a college or university

5.:a person skilled or specializing in healing arts; especially : one (as a physician, dentist, or veterinarian) who holds an advanced degree and is licensed to practice

This is within regulations for a licensed NP. However, I think for health literacy sake the Dr. should be confined to brochures, formalities and the academic setting (not a patient's room)

Is it a cheap use of the term doctor? Maybe for some. But seriously can we beat this horse anymore? I can't hear it neighing at all....

 

[Maybeknot]

Eh, I guess we can pick and choose which dictionaries we're referring to.

From Oxford:

noun
1a qualified practitioner of medicine; a physician.
a qualified dentist or veterinary surgeon.
[with modifier] informal a person who gives advice or makes improvements:
the script doctor rewrote the original
2 (Doctor) a person who holds a doctorate:
he was made a Doctor of Divinity
short for Doctor of the Church.
archaic a teacher or learned person:
the wisest doctor is graveled by the inquisitiveness of a child
3 an artificial fishing fly.

 

[Dranger]

Eh, I guess we can pick and choose which dictionaries we're referring to.

From Oxford:

Should we now discuss the validity of Webster vs Oxford now? In all honestly I used Webster just because I have the app on my phone right next to my micromedex app haha.

Seriously though, perhaps the DNP-Dr. title would be taken seriously if they beefed up the curriculum from its current theoy focused state to a more scientific/DDx approach (and this is coming from someone currently in the nursing realm in transition to medicine...)

 

[Maybeknot]

Should we now discuss the validity of Webster vs Oxford now? In all honestly I used Webster just because I have the app on my phone right next to my micromedex app haha.

Seriously though, perhaps the DNP-Dr. title would be taken seriously if they beefed up the curriculum from its current theoy focused state to a more scientific/DDx approach (and this is coming from someone currently in the nursing realm in transition to medicine...)

All I'm saying is that the public has -- by way of 250 years of accepted standards -- assumed "doctor" means physician, surgeon, dentist, etc.

I think history has shown that if you demonstrate equivalent training and capabilities, the medical community will (perhaps eventually) embrace the equivalence. See the AMA endorsing ending DO discrimination.

The DNP? Not even close.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

Seriously though, perhaps the DNP-Dr. title would be taken seriously if they beefed up the curriculum from its current theoy focused state to a more scientific/DDx approach (and this is coming from someone currently in the nursing realm in transition to medicine...)

They have that already...it is called a Ph.D.

The fact that DNPs are offered online, using a bunch of loosely related classes, and they lack any kind of significant contribution to the literature....is why it will never be considered a 'real' doctorate.

 

[Dranger]

They have that already...it is called a Ph.D.

The fact that DNPs are offered online, using a bunch of loosely related classes, and they lack any kind of significant contribution to the literature....is why it will never be considered a 'real' doctorate.

True, the PhD in Nursing seems to have a lot more credibility but it is still not science based aside from some assessment/statistical classes.

http://www1.villanova.edu/villanova/nursing/programs/graduate/phd/course.html

http://nursing.jhu.edu/academics/programs/doctoral/phd/

The class descriptions seem a lot more relevant than it's newer cousin the DNP.

The DNP is touted as a CLINICAL doctorate and thus it is the nursing end-stage degree which needs to be held to an even higher standard. Right now it seems to be a theory/research masters with a snazzy name, but meh what do I know.

 

[jwk]

The DNP is touted as a CLINICAL doctorate...

Now THAT'S funny. Really - that's friggin hilarious!!!

 

[Dranger]

Now THAT'S funny. Really - that's friggin hilarious!!!

I know right?

 

[fab4fan]

Maybe we should all be Reiki practitioners and fling freakin' FIRE from our fingertips.

I would pay big bucks to see that!

 

[fab4fan]

Just thought I'd share:
I applied for a tuition reimbursement award through my employer to help pay for my DNP. The interview was today. I was asked if I would be referring to myself as "Doctor" to the patients. I said no, because they already call me by my first name and it would be very odd to suddenly insist they refer to my by my last name, all titles aside. The medical director said : "I think that is a mistake. You should definitely use the title. I will be very proud to introduce you as Dr _______ to our patients and colleagues when you finish."

So FWIW the medical director of the largest multi-specialty physician owned practice in my state has given the DNP and me his blessing and support (and $15,000 in tuition-woot)! I am consistently congratulated and supported in my educational efforts. really think all the grumbling here on SDN represents the opinion of a minority of physicians. In any event, I am very glad to work where I do!

Wow! Congrats on the tuition reimb.!

 

[ChillyRN]

Thanks. I took a lower paying job (by about 30K than the other offer) because I really liked the people. To be frank, I grew up with money and an extremely privileged lifestyle. Thanks to the bank of Grandma & Grandpa, our retirement is set for us so money doesn't impress or motivate me with regard to my work. My decision was based purely on how well I felt I "clicked" with the people I met. However, I picked the best grad school that would have me and it is pricey. Student loan debt on top of a rather low salary was worrying me because we would like to provide the children some of the privileges that I enjoyed! My husband and I are very pleased that our leap of faith is paying off. I am so very, very lucky. I have to pinch myself some days!

 

[zenman]

Of course Zenman is the ONLY PERSON ON THE PLANET who has the ability to have more than one viewpoint, or tool, to use on a situation.

While he sits on his lofty throne of enlightenment, we are all simple cavemen still trying to build fire. While he is using his multi-tool to cure mankind of it's ailments, we are reduced to hammering away on our patients with our stone-age tools.

You are good at creative writing and I respect that. However, I was addressing my comment to one person. I'm sure there are many others who have more than one tool in their toolbox. Then again, others are just tools, lol!

Those of us who provide real medicine are honest enough to tell our patients when things simply don't work. But sometimes those patients are grasping at straws, which you so willingly sell them.

You mean like the patient I saw last week, while my doc was gone? She had been through 35 sessions of TMS from another outside doc...which didn't work...and was now scheduled for ECT at another location. Luckily, she had to wait for a bed. I saw her one frgken time and found out she had never been on an adequate trial of antidepressants and was currently on one which had worked the best for her. I immediately increased it and when I handed her off to another doc she agreed. Thank goodness she dealt with the angry doc who called when he found out what was going on. The ECT is now on hold and the patient may be seeking another shrink. Is this the straws you're talking about. Or maybe you're talking about my other options if nothing works for this lady...you know all "scientific" options have been exhausted? Tell me then what you propose, caring, compassionate person.

 

[zenman]

Wow, *50* cultures? Amazing! Do they have nurses pretending to be doctors in all of them?

We can have this argument ad nauseum. The ACCN and whomever can pretend that calling NP's "doctor" is proper and not confusing to patients.... but reality is a very different place (maybe you'd like to visit it sometime?).

 

[zenman]

Thank you for confirming that you are incapable of logical reasoning. Now, back to your shamanistic practice and zen whatever.

Thanks. I'll be meditating tonight. You'll be pleased to know I recently finished "Transforming Therapy with Shamanic Energy Medicine." It was a heck of a lot more fun than "Guide to Rational Prescribing: Neurophysiology and Drug Mechanisms of Action" and "Clinical Pearls in Psychopharmacology" which I also recently finished.

 

[zenman]

If any of that stuff could be proven to work, we'd do it. It hasn't and I don't expect it to be in the future, but the possibility remains there.

By "we'd do it" who do you mean...allopathic medicine? Has it been "proven" in extensive clinical trials over many years? I used to get regular free acupuncture from students. At one session a student completely knocked out tennis elbow and golfer's elbow in my left elbow. In one more session the pain also disappeared in my right elbow. I'd been suffering for a year and my ortho doc was about ready to do surgery. Turns out this "student" was already an experienced acupuncturist, having been family trained in Korea, and was going back through school to get licensed in the states. Anecdotal? Yes, but I'm that anecdote and it worked. Never had a problem since. So how many acupuncture patients do you think give a hoot about meeting rigorous scientific criteria or have you also considered why they are going else where other than their allopathic physician? Why? Why?

 

[ChillyRN]

Come on, there are plenty of perfectly legitimate alternative therapies and you guys know it, you just want to gang up on Zenman. There is a MD (yes!) NMD in my office who does acupuncture for chronic pain patients and migraineurs. I've never heard anyone* deny the efficacy of acupuncture. WTF? I have had plenty of cancer patients over the years tell me that reiki was effective for some of their symptoms as well. I've never been sick or in more pain than that caused by a stubbed toe, so I couldn't say. Well childbirth I guess, but guided imagery/relaxation was sufficient to deal with that. Somehow it never works when I stub my toe though, what's up with that?!

I don't think there is anything legitimate about homeopathy, I'll admit that. Most of the others I have heard about seem to have a place, however.

*ETA: I mean anyone knowledgeable and/or objective. I am discounting the addicts who didn't want any alternative to their oxys!

 

[deleted103644]

By "we'd do it" who do you mean...allopathic medicine? Has it been "proven" in extensive clinical trials over many years? I used to get regular free acupuncture from students. At one session a student completely knocked out tennis elbow and golfer's elbow in my left elbow. In one more session the pain also disappeared in my right elbow. I'd been suffering for a year and my ortho doc was about ready to do surgery. Turns out this "student" was already an experienced acupuncturist, having been family trained in Korea, and was going back through school to get licensed in the states. Anecdotal? Yes, but I'm that anecdote and it worked. Never had a problem since. So how many acupuncture patients do you think give a hoot about meeting rigorous scientific criteria or have you also considered why they are going else where other than their allopathic physician? Why? Why?

Sure, acupuncture has been proven to work. But you don't need to be trained - sticking needles randomly is just as effective.

People underestimate the value of a good placebo - I wish it were considered ethical to prescribe placebos in the US.

So if relying upon anecdotal evidence for treatment is what the advent of the DNP will bring us, that's a prime argument against it.

If there are any DNPs out there who respect the scientific process, I'd speak up now before these jokers further tarnish the reputation of your degree.

 

[zenman]

Come on, there are plenty of perfectly legitimate alternative therapies and you guys know it, you just want to gang up on Zenman. There is a MD (yes!) NMD in my office who does acupuncture for chronic pain patients and migraineurs. I've never heard anyone* deny the efficacy of acupuncture. WTF? I have had plenty of cancer patients over the years tell me that reiki was effective for some of their symptoms as well. I've never been sick or in more pain than that caused by a stubbed toe, so I couldn't say. Well childbirth I guess, but guided imagery/relaxation was sufficient to deal with that. Somehow it never works when I stub my toe though, what's up with that?!

I don't think there is anything legitimate about homeopathy, I'll admit that. Most of the others I have heard about seem to have a place, however.

*ETA: I mean anyone knowledgeable and/or objective. I am discounting the addicts who didn't want any alternative to their oxys!

Unfortunately humans are involved in research which usually means some ulterior motive.

http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2010/11/lies-damned-lies-and-medical-science/8269/

http://www.plosmedicine.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pmed.0020124

http://www.kevinmd.com/blog/2012/03/bias-error-rampant-medical-literature.html


I've never used homeopathic medicine but this just came out. Haven't read it yet.

http://www.naturalnews.com/035499_homeopathic_medicine_Swiss_report.html