DNP (doctor of nursing practice) vs. DO/MD

This forum made possible through the generous support of SDN members, donors, and sponsors. Thank you.
the doctorate degree as an np does not grant any additional rights beyond what one has as an ms level np. despite the doctorate a dnp is still a midlevel provider and can not call themselves dr xyz in a clinical situation or have dr xyz on their name tags.some states allow np's(regardless of degree) to open their own practice. many in medicine (including current np's) consider the move to a dnp to simply be a way for nursing programs to charge more tuition by giving in to the degree creep currently making rounds in all allied health fields(mine included).
yes DNPs do have Dr. xyz on their name tag. The difference is that they provide reasonable cost healthcare to their patients instead of charging $300,000 / year.

Members don't see this ad.
 
Actually your wrong. According to their proposal they'll still be called NP or whatever; I agree with your thoughts on it.
we can and already do have Dr. xyz, APRN, FNP on our name tags, and there is nothing misleading about it.
 
Members don't see this ad :)
DNP "sounds" better than PA, but that is an attempt at academic prestige/legitimacy. If I have a choice between a newly minted PA or DNP (both without prior experience), I'm going with the PA. As I said on the other post, a CCRN who goes DNP or PA is the best. I know a CCRN going PA, and will be well-ahead of any DNP/NP that I've ever met -- and better than many of the internists who shot-gun labs all day long without reason. But, that's another story.

Academic rank inflation is another of my pet-peeves: MPA is appropriate, DNP has little market or clinical value added above NP.
you're wrong. A DNP has considerable more clinical training than a NP.
 
most states have laws that in a clinical situation only an md/do/dds/dpm can call themselves dr. a phd psychologist can if he makes it clear that he is not a physician.
I know in my state for example that midlevels have to have
physician assistant or
nurse practitioner
displayed prominently on i.d.
I know midlevels with phd's who have been threatened with loss of job or worse for introducing themselves as dr smith
DNPs can and do have Dr. before their name, followed by ARNP, FNP
 
Again, NP's don't have to change state law. All they have to do is require "professional doctorate degee's" for accreditation. This in effect changes entry level for all new practitioners. Medicine did this years ago!
Don't worry, DNPs WILL change state law. We're lobbying congress now for a residency.
 
Hello! I'm a post-bac student w/ a Master's in health promotion and a couple of years of hospital work. I decided I want to go to medical school and have been taking the pre-reqs. I've learned a lot about the growing filed of advanced practice nursing and of direct-entry doctoral programs in which one does not need an RN/BSN to be admitted and can earn an MSN and DNP. Can anyone give me more information about the different roles NP's (nurse practitioners) have compared to MD/DOs, their level of autonomy (more/less flexible), salaries, and what their collaboration is like with other healthcare professionals?

Thanks!!
Nurses think they are more important than CNAs, Nurse practitioners think they are more important than nurses, DNPs think they are more important than NPs, DOs think they are more important than NPs, and MDs think they are more important than DOs, and Neurosurgeons think they are more important than everybody.......why can't we all just work together to provide competant patient care?
 
Nurses think they are more important than CNAs, Nurse practitioners think they are more important than nurses, DNPs think they are more important than NPs, DOs think they are more important than NPs, and MDs think they are more important than DOs, and Neurosurgeons think they are more important than everybody.......why can't we all just work together to provide competant patient care?
The question is, can DNPs provide competent care? Their curricula is different even between schools, so there's no standardized education like in the medical model. Also, there are several fluff courses that don't seem to help in clinical practice at all; do you really need several nursing theory/activism courses? Not only that, they have between 600-1000 clinical hours for BSN to DNP programs. From what I understand, clinical training is the most important aspect of medical training, so DNPs are quite lacking in this area.

Years of nursing experience doesn't really count since you weren't practicing medicine during that time, nor were you thinking in a manner that physicians do. Compared to medical training where graduating residents have over 17000 hours in clinical training (according to Taurus's signature), NP/DNP training seems woefully inadequate.

Based on your post history, I find it hard to believe that you dropped out of medical school and went the DNP route because you wanted to provide better care for patients; that doesn't really make sense at all.
 
Mike64119white said:
yes DNPs do have Dr. xyz on their name tag. The difference is that they provide reasonable cost healthcare to their patients instead of charging $300,000 / year.

Can't think of a primary care doc that is making $300,000 a year, or even $200,000.
 
you're wrong. A DNP has considerable more clinical training than a NP.

So extremely false and I can show you many many many DNP curricula that are 30 credits of health care drivel that barely say a thing about actual medical practice.
 
I have yet to run across a DNP program with a large curricular component. Most of them are a mini MBA+MEd+MPH. Great for supervisory and education roles, but no improvement on the clinical end.

"DNPs think they are more important than NPs"
DNP is an NP. There are now just two routes to be an NP; masters or doctorate.... aka how much $$ do you want to spend to land the same job?

How do you explain DNP graduates performing SO poorly on an exam similar to an MD licensing exam (but watered down) that MD graduates consider to be a cake walk if DNP = MD in knowledge?

Also, you do NOT know for sure that DNP will be the standard in 2015 so refrain from posting false information and stick to your opinions. Back in the 1970s, it was also a "for sure" thing that ADN was going to be wiped out and BSN was going to be the standard and that LPNs were a thing of the past. Almost 40 years later, we still have LPNs and associate degree nurses. The DNP will NOT replace the MSN in 2015.
 
DNPs can and do have Dr. before their name, followed by ARNP, FNP

Typical nurse - How many initials can we have after our name?

So you'll be Dr. Mike White, RN, DNP, ARNP, FNP? :laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh: What a redundant misleading pile of dog doodoo.
 
Typical nurse - How many initials can we have after our name?

So you'll be Dr. Mike White, RN, DNP, ARNP, FNP? :laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh: What a redundant misleading pile of dog doodoo.

Dr. Mike White, RN, ADN, BSN, MSN, DNP, ARNP, FNP is another possibility.

I'll stick to Lauren, PA-C some day.
 
Members don't see this ad :)
Don't worry, DNPs WILL change state law. We're lobbying congress now for a residency.

What's the purpose of a residency for a primary care provider who has an academic degree specialized in primary care already (i.e. since NPs have to do their MSN or DNP in acute care, adult care, family care, etc., and their training is obviously sooo extensive...)?
 
As others have said, the curriculum for DNP tends not to be clinically focused, despite the claims of out new troll.

Lets assume Professor (Dr.) Mary Mundinger, the inventor of the degree, has whats considered the flagship program at Columbia University. Here is the curriculum at Columbia:

http://sklad.cumc.columbia.edu/nursing/programs/dnp.php

Practice management. Informatics.Legal and ethical issues.Seminar. Research Design.

Clinical focus my eye.....
 
As others have said, the curriculum for DNP tends not to be clinically focused, despite the claims of out new troll.

Mommy, mommy, can we keep him?



Damn good link.

20 credits are non-clinical, and are just making a mini-MPH/MHA/MBA. The other 20 are clinical. Compare that to the two years of medical education (not including 4 years of undergraduate science prep) for the superior mid-level profession, PAs.
 
Last edited:
20 credits are non-clinical, and are just making a mini-MPH/MHA/MBA. The other 20 are clinical. That's not nearly comparable to the amount of training for PAs.

50% (20 credit hours) are clinical. 100% of a PA program are clinical or science preparing you for clinical and that isn't even bringing in med school. How can you even compare...
 
yes DNPs do have Dr. xyz on their name tag. The difference is that they provide reasonable cost healthcare to their patients instead of charging $300,000 / year.

we can and already do have Dr. xyz, APRN, FNP on our name tags, and there is nothing misleading about it.

you're wrong. A DNP has considerable more clinical training than a NP.

DNPs can and do have Dr. before their name, followed by ARNP, FNP

Don't worry, DNPs WILL change state law. We're lobbying congress now for a residency.

Nurses think they are more important than CNAs, Nurse practitioners think they are more important than nurses, DNPs think they are more important than NPs, DOs think they are more important than NPs, and MDs think they are more important than DOs, and Neurosurgeons think they are more important than everybody.......why can't we all just work together to provide competant patient care?
>
You know, trolling proper is a subtle artform. These kids today just don't have what it takes:rolleyes: Anyone read his "bolg entry"? Good for a laugh....Or Coasties "Dr. nurse Smith live fom the AANA conference" movies?


"Dr. nurse Smith RN ADN BSN MSN WTF NP APN DNP PhD OMG DNAP CRNA CCRN ACLS BLS PALS NRP LOL"

HAHAHAHAHA!!!!!
 
Don't worry, DNPs WILL change state law. We're lobbying congress now for a residency.

Notice Mr. Mikey has disappeared from the fight already, but just in case...

Changing state law is MUCH more difficult than your little DrWannabee brain can comprehend.

Congress has nothing to do with "residency" of any type, so either you don't know what you're talking about, or again, it's more than you can comprehend.

Buh bye now.
 
50% (20 credit hours) are clinical. 100% of a PA program are clinical or science preparing you for clinical and that isn't even bringing in med school. How can you even compare...

Fixed. Sorry, I didn't intend to make the comparison. It's really not a comparison at all.

Two years of clinical medical training and four years of undergrad preparation >> 20 credits of nursing
 
Last edited:
As others have said, the curriculum for DNP tends not to be clinically focused, despite the claims of out new troll.

Lets assume Professor (Dr.) Mary Mundinger, the inventor of the degree, has whats considered the flagship program at Columbia University. Here is the curriculum at Columbia:

http://sklad.cumc.columbia.edu/nursing/programs/dnp.php

Practice management. Informatics.Legal and ethical issues.Seminar. Research Design.

Clinical focus my eye.....

Those courses + clinical are the extra ones you have to take in addition to the current NP program.
 
Those courses + clinical are the extra ones you have to take in addition to the current NP program.


I am aware of that.

But its a stretch in my mind to state that the addition of this coursework will make a masters level NP so much stronger clinically that they can replace MDs in primary care. Better managers? Yes. Better researchers? Sure. Prepare to be the chief independent primary care giver? Not in a million years.....
 
Those courses + clinical are the extra ones you have to take in addition to the current NP program.

Ok. So suppose we tack on those 40 credits to an MS prepared nurse. That nurse has 3 credits in pharmacology from their MS, 6 in physiology and pathophysiology from their MS, with other clinical credits totaling 31 clinical or basic science courses in the MS. Then, we have 20 clinical courses from the DNP. 51 courses of clinical and basic science work to do the work of a primary care MD/DO who has many times more training. A PA has, in the Duke University PA curriculum, 54 basic science and clinical credits in the pre-clinical component, and 41 clinical credits in the clinical experience component, not including the 8 weeks of electives. Hmm...
 
An example Instatewaiter gave and an example I gave in a different thread:

Let's see if I was overreacting. I googled "DNP curriculum," picked the first reputable university program I could find. It happened to be the University of Arizona (4th down on google).I picked the family nurse practice DNP which is a straight from BSN (college) to DNP (doctorate).


1) From a college degree it requires only 74 credits to get a doctorate. So 2.5 years gets you a doctorate... For those counting that is roughly 6 months more credit hours than you need to get a masters level NP. So there is your 6 months difference.

2) The doctrate (remember straight out of nursing school) requires only 1,000 clinical hours. Again, I did 3-4000 hours by the end of my third year. Multiply that by 4 and you will have what a family doc goes through ~12,000 clinical hours vs 1000 in the DNP. That doesnt even take into account the differences in foundation.

So let's look at that foundation.

3) COURSES

Let me list the worthless classes that make up that 74 credit hours at Arizona
- Statistics- 3 credits
- Advanced Statistics- 3 credits
- Health Policy and Economics- 3 credits
- Health Care Information Systems- 3 credits
- Theories of Leadership & Organizational Management- 3 credits
- Methods for Scholarly Inquiry- 3 credits
- The Science and Practice of Nursing- 1 credit
- Translational Research- 3 credits
- Philosophy of Nursing Science- 3 credits
- Evaluation Methodologies for Safety & Quality Improvement- 3 credits
- Theory Development and Evaluation- 3 credits

TOTAL: 31/74 credit hours are fluff courses that should be found in an MPH or graduate school focused on research not a clinical doctorate.

Clinically Useful courses:
- Molecular & Clinical Genetics / Genomics- 3 credits
- Emerging Diseases and Population Health- 3 credits
- NURS 501 Advanced Physiology & Pathophysiology- 4 credits
- Advanced Pharmacotherapeutics for Nursing- 3 credits
- Health Assessment (2 credits)
- Pediatrics in Advanced Practice 3 credits
- Primary Care of the Adult 3 credits
- Advanced Primary Care of the Adult 4 credits
- Women's Health in Advanced Practice Nursing 1 credit
- Issues in Geriatric Health- 1 credit
- Residency (6 credits)
- Practice Inquiry (9 credits)
- 1 credit of electives

Useful courses 43/74 credit hours


So to recap: You take almost the same amount of hours in statistics as you do in pathophysiology AND pharmacology combined!



42% of the coursework for the Arizona DNP has next to nothing to do with clinical practice and are just fluff courses. You cannot honestly say that the DNP was created to be focused on patient care when the courses are not focused on patient care but are rather focused on nursing theory and nursing advancement. Were it really focused on improving patient care you would see a stronger clinical hours requirment and a stronger foundation in the basic clinical sciences.


Here's the link so everyone can look for themselves:
[URL]http://www.nursing.arizona.edu/OSA/PDF/programs/Handouts_2008/BSN_DNP_FNP_Handout_2008.pdf[/URL]

Oh and that is not just the case with arizona, it is found in essentially every program

1) Duke's BSN to DNP:
http://nursing.duke.edu/wysiwyg/downloads/Sample_Post_BSN_DNP_Adult_MAT_Plan.pdf

2) Loyolas MSN to DNP: http://www.luc.edu/nursing/dnp/curriculum.shtml
This is a scary one. If a DNP is supposed to have a better understanding of the basic sciences, where are the basic science classes. It is basically an MPH and has NO new basic science classes. They are all public health classes.

3) Here's a BSN to DNP at MGH (you know, Harvard's Hospital).

DNP in Adult medicine: 51% of the courses are fluff
35/72 credits are real clinical or foundational coures
37/72 are fluff coures.

DNP in FM
46/83 are real clinical or foundational courses
37/83 are fluff (45%)

http://www.mghihp.edu/nursing/postprofessional/dnp/curriculum-overview/RN-to-DNP-Curriculum.html?cw=1



Here's a sample curriculum from a BSN-DNP program (at Duke): http://nursing.duke.edu/wysiwyg/downloads/Sample_Post_BSN_DNP_Adult_MAT_Plan.pdf

You need 73 credits to go from a college degree to a doctorate. That turns out to be less than 3 years.

Now, let's look at the fluff courses that aren't really clinically useful: Research Methods (3 credits), Health Services Program Planning and Outcomes Analysis (3 credits), Applied Statistics (2 credits), Research Utilization in Advanced Nursing Practice (3 credits), Data Driven Health Care Improvement (4 credits), Evidence Based Practice and Applied Statistics I & II (7 credits, since you told me medicine is not evidence based), Effective Leadership (2 credits), Transforming the Nation's Health (3 credits), DNP Capstone (6 credits), Health Systems Transformation (3 credits), Financial Management & Budget Planning (3 credits).

Here are the clinically useful courses: Population-Based Approach to Healthcare (3 credits), Clinical Pharmacology and Interventions for Advanced Practice Nursing (3 credits), Managing Common Acute and Chronic Health Problems I (3 credits), Selected Topics in Advanced Pathophysiology (3 credits), Diagnostic Reasoning & Physical Assessment in Advanced Nursing Practice (4 credits), Common Acute and Chronic Health Problems II (3 credits), Sexual and Reproductive Health (2 credits), Nurse Practitioner Residency: Adult Primary Care (3 credits), Electives (12 credits).

So, out of the 73 credits needed to go from BSN to DNP, 37 credits are not clinically useful. In addition, the number of required clinical hours is 612 hours (unless I miscounted something)!! Wow! And the NP program is designed the same way, with a bunch of fluff courses (11 credits out of 43 required are fluff) and requires 612 hours as well: http://nursing.duke.edu/wysiwyg/downloads/AdultPrimaryCareCurriculum_2.pdf

Here are the curricula to several other programs:

It's kinda scary how inadequate that training is in order to practice medicine independently. You can't really count prior nursing experience as time practicing medicine because you weren't practicing medicine during that time nor were you thinking in a medical manner (ie. the way a physician would). Nursing clinical hours might help you transition into medicine but they are NOT a replacement for medical clinical hours.



Now, just for comparison, let's look at a med school curriculum. I'll point out all the fluff courses here too. Here's an example from Baylor School of Medicine for M1/M2 (http://www.bcm.edu/osa/handbook/?PMID=5608) and for M3/M4 (http://www.bcm.edu/osa/handbook/?PMID=7463):

Fluff courses at Baylor School of Medicine during M1/M2 years ONLY: Patient, Physician, and Society-1 (4.5 credits), Patient, Physician, and Society-2 (6 credits), Bioethics (2.5 credits), Integrated Problem Solving 1 & 2 (10 credits).

Useful courses at Baylor School of Medicine during M1/M2 years ONLY: Foundations Basic to Science of Medicine: Core Concepts (14.5 credits), Cardiovascular-Renal-Resp (11.5 credits), GI-Met-Nut-Endo-Reproduction (14 credits), General Pathology & General Pharmacology (6.5 credits), Head & Neck Anatomy (4.5 credits), Immunology (5 credits), Behavioral Sciences (6.5 credits), Infectious Disease (13 credits), Nervous System (14 credits), Cardiology (4.5 credits), Respiratory (3.5 credits), Renal (4 credits), Hematology/Oncology (5 credits), Hard & Soft Tissues (3 credits), Gastroenterology (4 credits), Endocrinology (3.5 credits), GU/Gyn (3 credits), Genetics (3 credits), Age Related Topics (2.5 credits).

For only the M1/M2 years at Baylor, there's 162.5 total credits. Out of these 162.5 credits, 23 credits are fluff.

Core Clerkships during M3 (useful clinical training): Medicine (24 credits, 12 weeks), Surgery (16 credits, 8 weeks), Group A selective (8 credits, 4 weeks), Psychiatry (16 credits, 8 weeks), Neurology (8 credits, 4 weeks), Pediatrics (16 credits, 8 weeks), Ob/Gyn (16 credits, 8 weeks), Family & Community Medicine (8 credits, 4 weeks), Clinical Half-Day (includes Clincal Application of Radiology, Clinical Application of Pathology, Clinical Application of Nutrition, Clinical Evidence Based Medicine, Longitudinal Ambulatory Care Experience, and Apex -- 23 credits).

So, without even taking into consideration M4 electives and required subinternships (which are usually in Medicine and Surgery), medical students already have a far superior medical training than NPs or DNPs. Other examples of med school curricula:

You can get a BSN to DNP in about 3 years according to many programs I've looked at. Medicine involves 4 years of medical school and a minimum of 3 years of residency before allowing independent practice. Here's the math:



BSN to DNP: 2.5 - 3 years of training; longer if courses taken part-time; 600-1000 clinical hours!
BS/BA to MD/DO: 4 years med school + 3-5 years residency: 7-11 years of training; not possible part-time; clinical hours > 17000"

It seems illogical to be okay with NPs/DNPs practicing independently but be scared to let 4th year med students, who have more training than the NP/DNP curricula offer, practice independently as well.

The curricula don't seem very clinically oriented to me. In fact, it is pretty scary that you could go from no prior healthcare experience to NP in about 2-3 years with some direct-entry programs. As I have mentioned in other threads, if NPs/DNPs can practice independently (and I know they can in several states), I think 4th year med students should be able to also. They have a stronger basic science foundation and more clinical hours.

Do you really need that many statistics courses, research courses, DNP Capstone (huh?), effective leadership, nursing theory, etc. courses in order to practice medicine? Do they really help you be a better clinician? If they do help, why don't medical schools have many such courses in their curricula as well?

PS. I know my 4th year med student suggestion is ridiculous. I'm not seriously advocating for it.
 
Last edited:
As I have mentioned in other threads, if NPs/DNPs can practice independently (and I know they can in several states),

Confirmed –*quite a few: Alaska, Arizona, District of Columbia, Iowa, Idaho, Montana, New Hampshire, New Mexico, Oregon, Washington.
Lots of those states (and the one District) are rural or under-served for other reasons –*I wonder what their rationale is: "better poorly trained NPs than nothing"?

If they do help, why don't medical schools have many such courses in their curricula as well?

If you're intelligent enough and have a bit of background in statistics and social sciences, you can cover a huge portion of that stuff on your own, no?
 
Confirmed –*quite a few: Alaska, Arizona, District of Columbia, Iowa, Idaho, Montana, New Hampshire, New Mexico, Oregon, Washington.
Lots of those states (and the one District) are rural or under-served for other reasons –*I wonder what their rationale is: "better poorly trained NPs than nothing"?



If you're intelligent enough and have a bit of background in statistics and social sciences, you can cover a huge portion of that stuff on your own, no?
That's true for pretty much anything I guess (other than stuff like procedures, etc. that require you to actually physically do/recognize things). While I'm not a med student, I feel like they don't really have that much of a free time where they actively pursue teaching themselves several courses worth of material.

The scariest part of the NP/DNP curricula is the number of clinical hours. From what I understand, the clinical training is the most important part of medical training. So I don't understand why there's such a low requirement in NP/DNP school.
 
Confirmed –*quite a few: Alaska, Arizona, District of Columbia, Iowa, Idaho, Montana, New Hampshire, New Mexico, Oregon, Washington.
Lots of those states (and the one District) are rural or under-served for other reasons –*I wonder what their rationale is: "better poorly trained NPs than nothing"?



If you're intelligent enough and have a bit of background in statistics and social sciences, you can cover a huge portion of that stuff on your own, no?
Sorry for the double post, but I feel that's a really bad way to rationalize independent practice. I know you're not the one actually saying that, but I'm just saying in general in case there are others who feel that way. I don't think any medicine is better than no medicine; by that logic, we might as well put bio majors in rural areas where they have no doctors or NPs/DNPs with the rationale that a dangerous quality of medicine is better than no medicine. It just doesn't make sense to me.
 
Sorry for the double post, but I feel that's a really bad way to rationalize independent practice. I know you're not the one actually saying that, but I'm just saying in general in case there are others who feel that way. I don't think any medicine is better than no medicine; by that logic, we might as well put bio majors in rural areas where they have no doctors or NPs/DNPs with the rationale that a dangerous quality of medicine is better than no medicine. It just doesn't make sense to me.

There definitely are people who say that. And there are people who do it, too. I feel like there was an article I read about this once, an American without any medical training goes to a third world country and sets up a clinic. Apologies for the rambling.

I don't think that it's worse to have an NP than nothing, to be honest. But the NP should have supervision from a physician, for sure.
 
An example Instatewaiter gave and an example I gave in a different thread:









The curricula don't seem very clinically oriented to me. In fact, it is pretty scary that you could go from no prior healthcare experience to NP in about 2-3 years with some direct-entry programs. As I have mentioned in other threads, if NPs/DNPs can practice independently (and I know they can in several states), I think 4th year med students should be able to also. They have a stronger basic science foundation and more clinical hours.

Do you really need that many statistics courses, research courses, DNP Capstone (huh?), effective leadership, nursing theory, etc. courses in order to practice medicine? Do they really help you be a better clinician? If they do help, why don't medical schools have many such courses in their curricula as well?

PS. I know my 4th year med student suggestion is ridiculous. I'm not seriously advocating for it.

Silly...don't you know anything about osmosis? You get that degree and that's all it takes. You don't need to actually have any kind of prior foundation. You can just walk into the hospital with your degree clutched in your hand and knowledge and skill will just transfer itself to you like magic. OK, well, you will have to put on a long white coat.

Gee, for a smart guy you sure can be clueless. ;)
 
Silly...don't you know anything about osmosis? You get that degree and that's all it takes. You don't need to actually have any kind of prior foundation. You can just walk into the hospital with your degree clutched in your hand and knowledge and skill will just transfer itself to you like magic. OK, well, you will have to put on a long white coat.

Gee, for a smart guy you sure can be clueless. ;)
/cry

:(

:oops:

:p
 
In the evaluation of educations of DNP's vs MD's, there are many aspects that are not being considered in these discussions. Nurses have many clinical hours of training for their BSN, before continuing to a Masters level and Doctorate level of education. Nurses also practice at the bedside, obtaining experience that MD's have never and will never obtain unless their scope expands into including more indepth clinical training with their patients, instead of the 5 minute run in and out "visits". Nurses train new doctors everyday in the ICU's. Nurses watch the actions of medications and disease processes in a complete scope while MD's do not. MD's do not study EBP (Evidence Based Practice). MD's do not include the scope of prevention in their practice. So, MD's may have the better science education program in a book but in no grasp do they obtain the level of clinical experience that a nurse does. To apply for the DNP, a nurse must have a masters level degree with many years of clinical experience to be considered. My family is comprised of both professions. I have great respect for both professions. I do hope to see MD programs expand their scope of practice into a more indepth clinical training accompanied by EBP education, and the Prevention piece that they lack. I would like to see the DNP program expand on their science based classes, such as a stronger Pathophysiology course. I would also like to see the opportunity for residency in specialties for the doctorate prepaid nurses. Hopefully we all have the same goals. To care for others. To provide a better quality of life. To keep as many as possible out of the hospital. To teach patients and families how to take care of themselves in a healthy way. To work together for the better of everyone. It is so disturbing to read the aggressive, defensive and offensive statements. The least we can do, is the best we can do. Let's teach each other what the other lacks. And it is a fact that both educational programs lack in areas that the other is strong in. We can all learn from each other. We need to take care of each other too. I wish everyone the best in whatever path you take to be the best you can be for the care of our world.
 
In the evaluation of educations of DNP's vs MD's, there are many aspects that are not being considered in these discussions. Nurses have many clinical hours of training for their BSN, before continuing to a Masters level and Doctorate level of education. Nurses also practice at the bedside, obtaining experience that MD's have never and will never obtain unless their scope expands into including more indepth clinical training with their patients, instead of the 5 minute run in and out "visits". Nurses train new doctors everyday in the ICU's. Nurses watch the actions of medications and disease processes in a complete scope while MD's do not. MD's do not study EBP (Evidence Based Practice). MD's do not include the scope of prevention in their practice. So, MD's may have the better science education program in a book but in no grasp do they obtain the level of clinical experience that a nurse does. To apply for the DNP, a nurse must have a masters level degree with many years of clinical experience to be considered. My family is comprised of both professions. I have great respect for both professions. I do hope to see MD programs expand their scope of practice into a more indepth clinical training accompanied by EBP education, and the Prevention piece that they lack. I would like to see the DNP program expand on their science based classes, such as a stronger Pathophysiology course. I would also like to see the opportunity for residency in specialties for the doctorate prepaid nurses. Hopefully we all have the same goals. To care for others. To provide a better quality of life. To keep as many as possible out of the hospital. To teach patients and families how to take care of themselves in a healthy way. To work together for the better of everyone. It is so disturbing to read the aggressive, defensive and offensive statements. The least we can do, is the best we can do. Let's teach each other what the other lacks. And it is a fact that both educational programs lack in areas that the other is strong in. We can all learn from each other. We need to take care of each other too. I wish everyone the best in whatever path you take to be the best you can be for the care of our world.

OMG - you're freakin kidding me right? This is one of the funniest things I've read online in ages. :laugh::laugh::laugh: Can we hold hands and sing KumBaYah too? HAHAHAHA :laugh::laugh::laugh: Stop it, you're killing me. :laugh::laugh::laugh:
 
In the evaluation of educations of DNP's vs MD's, there are many aspects that are not being considered in these discussions. Nurses have many clinical hours of training for their BSN, before continuing to a Masters level and Doctorate level of education. Nurses also practice at the bedside, obtaining experience that MD's have never and will never obtain unless their scope expands into including more indepth clinical training with their patients, instead of the 5 minute run in and out "visits". Nurses train new doctors everyday in the ICU's. Nurses watch the actions of medications and disease processes in a complete scope while MD's do not. MD's do not study EBP (Evidence Based Practice). MD's do not include the scope of prevention in their practice. So, MD's may have the better science education program in a book but in no grasp do they obtain the level of clinical experience that a nurse does. To apply for the DNP, a nurse must have a masters level degree with many years of clinical experience to be considered. My family is comprised of both professions. I have great respect for both professions. I do hope to see MD programs expand their scope of practice into a more indepth clinical training accompanied by EBP education, and the Prevention piece that they lack. I would like to see the DNP program expand on their science based classes, such as a stronger Pathophysiology course. I would also like to see the opportunity for residency in specialties for the doctorate prepaid nurses. Hopefully we all have the same goals. To care for others. To provide a better quality of life. To keep as many as possible out of the hospital. To teach patients and families how to take care of themselves in a healthy way. To work together for the better of everyone. It is so disturbing to read the aggressive, defensive and offensive statements. The least we can do, is the best we can do. Let's teach each other what the other lacks. And it is a fact that both educational programs lack in areas that the other is strong in. We can all learn from each other. We need to take care of each other too. I wish everyone the best in whatever path you take to be the best you can be for the care of our world.

Troll...MDs have no in depth clinical training? Don't practice EBP? Nurses train docs?

No one who has any clue about healthcare is that ******ed...
 
Nurses also practice at the bedside, obtaining experience that MD's have never and will never obtain

Nurses watch the actions of medications and disease processes in a complete scope while MD's do not.

MD's do not study EBP (Evidence Based Practice).

:laugh:

Yeah I'm calling troll here. Seriously? Physicians don't practice evidence based medicine? MDs don't practice at the bedside? Then where do they practice?? In the bathroom? :laugh:

edit: scary... I just googled the screenname and apparently she is a real person in an NP program who truly believes that nurses train doctors and doctors don't have enough clinical experience. Silly me, I was thinking 3rd and 4th year of medical school + 3-7 years of residency was considered clinical experience. Just when you thought the world couldn't get any dumber...
 
Last edited:
One of the keys to medicine is realizing that there is no way to learn everything you could possibly use with your patient. I can't be a social worker, and a nutritionist, and fight bed sores etc etc etc. I'm glad those people are part of the team. But just because I can't do there jobs doesn't make me a bad clinician. Nor does it mean there is a gap in my education. There is much more about my chosen field to learn than I'll ever know, so no reason to try to also learn nursing and rehab and nutrition and whatever else.
 
Troll...MDs have no in depth clinical training? Don't practice EBP? Nurses train docs?

No one who has any clue about healthcare is that ******ed...

Actually I am aware of a few nurses who train docs, aware of a lot of MDs who don't practice EBP, the part about no in depth clinical training is wierd.
 
There are some np's that teach docs, not RNs. Maybe they catch a mistake or teach them how the attending likes things done, but theydont teach them patho of a disease or anything. And if they don't practice EBM then that's a personal choice because I assure you they are taught to follow the literature.
 
Actually I am aware of a few nurses who train docs, .

Sorry, but nurses do not train doctors. Anyone who believes otherwise is not based in reality. I know nurses like to feel important, but it's just simply not the case. I'm not talking about ICU nurses who help out the interns starting in July. Those nurses know how to handle things they see everyday, but wait until a patient with G6PD defiency or Wolff-Parkinson-White has something go wrong. Then what? I'm also ignoring the nurses who love to brag about all the mistakes they catch doctors making. Imagine if those same nurses had to actually make treatment decisions? What would Ms. RN do with a patient who goes into afib w/ WPW? Uh oh, quick, better get those fingers googling! I wonder if Ms. RN read any of the more recent studies examining the efficacy of beta blockers vs. CCBs vs. ACEIs in prevention of cardiovascular/cerebrovascular events in post-stroke patients. It's easy for Ms. RN to look at the chart and say "Oh he's on amlodipine, I would've known to put him on that." BS. Try defending yourself in front of a malpractice lawyer who pulls up the study pointing out that one drug is more efficacious than the other and then asking why you didn't put their patient on the "better" drug. Nurses are a crucial part of the healthcare system, but please, let's not overstate their importance. Doctors are the ones who run the show and make the decisions in management, as they should be.

aware of a lot of MDs who don't practice EBP

Define "a lot." I'm aware of the majority of MDs who do in fact practice evidence based medicine. Just because someone knows a doctor or three that practices bad medicine, or they caught a mistake that a fresh intern (or veteran doctor) made does not mean nurses are qualified to train doctors by any means.
 
Last edited:
Agreed, the DNP transition does not seem clinically oriented. I just don't understand how the DNP program is supposed to replace an internist...I hate how we're watering down doctors....

Curriculum Overview

The DNP program consists of a minimum of 40 credits beyond the master's-level specialty content. The foundational & Universal Core Courses are taken by students in both the direct and the indirect track. After completing the universal courses, students move into a curriculum concentration to complete the cognate and capstone project.

* Students who have not been in active practice may be required to take an additional 4 credits - the DNP Practice and Practicum course.

Foundational COURSES

Course Title


Credits

NURS 5610 Information Technology for Evidence-based Practice


3 (didactic)

NURS 5620 Healthcare Ethics for the Nurse Leader


3 (didactic)

UNIVERSAL CORE COURSES

Course Title


Credits

NURS 6400 Evidence Based Advanced Nursing Practice


3 (didactic)

NURS 6401 Clinical Inquiry Seminar, I


1 (didactic)

NURS 6000 Health Policy


3 (didactic)

NURS 6100 Principles of Epidemiology & Statistics


4 (didactic)

NURS 6200 Advanced Health Promotion Across Diverse Cultures


3 (didactic)

NURS 6300 Theory Application in the Clinical Setting


3 (didactic)

NURS 6500 Interdisciplinary Leadership, Quality and Collaboration


2 (didactic)

NURS 6600 Health Care Economics and the Business of Practice


3 (didactic)

NURS 6700 Advanced Evidence-based Initiatives in Health Care


3 (didactic)

NURS 6701 Clinical Inquiry Seminar , II


1 (didactic)

COGNATE COURSES

NURS 6920 Selected Practice Cognate for DNP Role Development (Education, Health Policy/Administration/Leadership, Advanced Practice, Clinical Informatics)


4 (2 didactic, 2 clinical)

DIFFERENTIATED ADVANCED NURSING PRACTICE

NURS 6900 DNP Residency and Project (Capstone Course)


4 (1 didactic, 3 clinical)

Total Credits= 40
 
In the evaluation of educations of DNP's vs MD's, there are many aspects that are not being considered in these discussions. Nurses have many clinical hours of training for their BSN, before continuing to a Masters level and Doctorate level of education. Nurses also practice at the bedside, obtaining experience that MD's have never and will never obtain unless their scope expands into including more indepth clinical training with their patients, instead of the 5 minute run in and out "visits". Nurses train new doctors everyday in the ICU's. Nurses watch the actions of medications and disease processes in a complete scope while MD's do not. MD's do not study EBP (Evidence Based Practice). MD's do not include the scope of prevention in their practice. So, MD's may have the better science education program in a book but in no grasp do they obtain the level of clinical experience that a nurse does. To apply for the DNP, a nurse must have a masters level degree with many years of clinical experience to be considered. My family is comprised of both professions. I have great respect for both professions. I do hope to see MD programs expand their scope of practice into a more indepth clinical training accompanied by EBP education, and the Prevention piece that they lack. I would like to see the DNP program expand on their science based classes, such as a stronger Pathophysiology course. I would also like to see the opportunity for residency in specialties for the doctorate prepaid nurses. Hopefully we all have the same goals. To care for others. To provide a better quality of life. To keep as many as possible out of the hospital. To teach patients and families how to take care of themselves in a healthy way. To work together for the better of everyone. It is so disturbing to read the aggressive, defensive and offensive statements. The least we can do, is the best we can do. Let's teach each other what the other lacks. And it is a fact that both educational programs lack in areas that the other is strong in. We can all learn from each other. We need to take care of each other too. I wish everyone the best in whatever path you take to be the best you can be for the care of our world.

I wonder if DNP programs actually teach this crap because I have heard similar things from multiple different people, especially the DNP students. I have to guess this is part of their nursing activism courses.

Now to address some of the claims:
1) The "clinical hours" in the BSN are not spent learning to manage patients. They are spent learning how to do an IV, give specific drugs, not what to do if the patient becomes aneuric. Thus those hours are essentially irrelevant to management of patients since they are not dealt with managing patients, but rather with how to follow the orders of the physician.

2) If by "Nurses practice at the bedside" you mean floor nurses spend more time with their individual patient, you are right. That does not mean that time should be considered as clinical hours since that time is spent either doing grunt work or following the MD's orders. It is not spent, at all, managing the patient medically. So while you may feel the MD isn't spending "enough" time with the patient, they do so because they are so efficient. You don't need hours to do a physical exam on a previously admitted pt and explain the course of action. You need 10-20 minutes of face time and some more time reviewing labs/radiographs.

That may seem curt to you but unlike the 2-4 patients you carry as a nurse, the doctor has to make the decisions on 20 patients.

3) "Nurses train new docs in the ICU"- While I would hardly call it training them, I'll agree new interns lean on the ICU nurses because the ICU nurses know the system well and are good at their job. However, notice that in that 1 or 2 ICU rotations of the intern year, the intern becomes the resident that is a (hopefully) competent leader in the ICU.

I'm gonna guess you are an ICU nurse who is bitter that the interns start out as novices and then leap frog you in such a short time. However it shouldn't, because we work as a team.

4) Lack of EBM and prevention in medical education? I don't even know where you heard this from because it is a complete fabrication.

5) DNPs will be allowed to enter residencies when their clinical training is strong enough to be considered equivalent to MD/DOs. They currently are not even close so don't hold your breath that it's gonna happen anytime soon.
 
In the evaluation of educations of DNP's vs MD's, there are many aspects that are not being considered in these discussions. Nurses have many clinical hours of training for their BSN, before continuing to a Masters level and Doctorate level of education. Nurses also practice at the bedside, obtaining experience that MD's have never and will never obtain unless their scope expands into including more indepth clinical training with their patients, instead of the 5 minute run in and out "visits". Nurses train new doctors everyday in the ICU's. Nurses watch the actions of medications and disease processes in a complete scope while MD's do not. MD's do not study EBP (Evidence Based Practice). MD's do not include the scope of prevention in their practice. So, MD's may have the better science education program in a book but in no grasp do they obtain the level of clinical experience that a nurse does. To apply for the DNP, a nurse must have a masters level degree with many years of clinical experience to be considered. My family is comprised of both professions. I have great respect for both professions. I do hope to see MD programs expand their scope of practice into a more indepth clinical training accompanied by EBP education, and the Prevention piece that they lack. I would like to see the DNP program expand on their science based classes, such as a stronger Pathophysiology course. I would also like to see the opportunity for residency in specialties for the doctorate prepaid nurses. Hopefully we all have the same goals. To care for others. To provide a better quality of life. To keep as many as possible out of the hospital. To teach patients and families how to take care of themselves in a healthy way. To work together for the better of everyone. It is so disturbing to read the aggressive, defensive and offensive statements. The least we can do, is the best we can do. Let's teach each other what the other lacks. And it is a fact that both educational programs lack in areas that the other is strong in. We can all learn from each other. We need to take care of each other too. I wish everyone the best in whatever path you take to be the best you can be for the care of our world.


roll2.gif
roflmao.gif
 
"That may seem curt to you but unlike the 2-4 patients you carry as a nurse, the doctor has to make the decisions on 20 patients. "

I have a good friend who says this about a similar situation:
"as a medic if I had 15 pts at once I called it a multicasualty incident. in the ER if I have 15 pts at once I call it wednesday".
 
In the evaluation of educations of DNP's vs MD's, there are many aspects that are not being considered in these discussions. Nurses have many clinical hours of training for their BSN, before continuing to a Masters level and Doctorate level of education. Nurses also practice at the bedside, obtaining experience that MD's have never and will never obtain unless their scope expands into including more indepth clinical training with their patients, instead of the 5 minute run in and out "visits". Nurses train new doctors everyday in the ICU's. Nurses watch the actions of medications and disease processes in a complete scope while MD's do not. MD's do not study EBP (Evidence Based Practice). MD's do not include the scope of prevention in their practice. So, MD's may have the better science education program in a book but in no grasp do they obtain the level of clinical experience that a nurse does. To apply for the DNP, a nurse must have a masters level degree with many years of clinical experience to be considered. My family is comprised of both professions. I have great respect for both professions. I do hope to see MD programs expand their scope of practice into a more indepth clinical training accompanied by EBP education, and the Prevention piece that they lack. I would like to see the DNP program expand on their science based classes, such as a stronger Pathophysiology course. I would also like to see the opportunity for residency in specialties for the doctorate prepaid nurses. Hopefully we all have the same goals. To care for others. To provide a better quality of life. To keep as many as possible out of the hospital. To teach patients and families how to take care of themselves in a healthy way. To work together for the better of everyone. It is so disturbing to read the aggressive, defensive and offensive statements. The least we can do, is the best we can do. Let's teach each other what the other lacks. And it is a fact that both educational programs lack in areas that the other is strong in. We can all learn from each other. We need to take care of each other too. I wish everyone the best in whatever path you take to be the best you can be for the care of our world.

That's bullcrap-- I think that it used to be that to obtain your MSN in nursing you had to have at least a few years of bedside nursing but now there are all these direct entry programs not to mention the fact that you can become an NP online. It's a joke; at least with PA's the curricula across schools is far more homogenous and you at least have some sort of idea as to their education. With an NP you have no clue unless you look at their CV.

Also, there are definitely some nurses who help teach physicians-- the old, crusty ICU nurse can definitely help out the brand, spanking new physician/med student. But the nurses (not all) who I can't stand are the ones who have been out of nursing school for like a year and think they know everything and have seen everything and then call the doctor "lazy, stupid, etc." It's a bit more than irritating-- if RN's want respect for the work that they do, then they need to respect the work that physicians do.
 
In the evaluation of educations of DNP's vs MD's, there are many aspects that are not being considered in these discussions. Nurses have many clinical hours of training for their BSN, before continuing to a Masters level and Doctorate level of education. Nurses also practice at the bedside, obtaining experience that MD's have never and will never obtain unless their scope expands into including more indepth clinical training with their patients, instead of the 5 minute run in and out "visits". Nurses train new doctors everyday in the ICU's. Nurses watch the actions of medications and disease processes in a complete scope while MD's do not. MD's do not study EBP (Evidence Based Practice). MD's do not include the scope of prevention in their practice. So, MD's may have the better science education program in a book but in no grasp do they obtain the level of clinical experience that a nurse does. To apply for the DNP, a nurse must have a masters level degree with many years of clinical experience to be considered. My family is comprised of both professions. I have great respect for both professions. I do hope to see MD programs expand their scope of practice into a more indepth clinical training accompanied by EBP education, and the Prevention piece that they lack. I would like to see the DNP program expand on their science based classes, such as a stronger Pathophysiology course. I would also like to see the opportunity for residency in specialties for the doctorate prepaid nurses. Hopefully we all have the same goals. To care for others. To provide a better quality of life. To keep as many as possible out of the hospital. To teach patients and families how to take care of themselves in a healthy way. To work together for the better of everyone. It is so disturbing to read the aggressive, defensive and offensive statements. The least we can do, is the best we can do. Let's teach each other what the other lacks. And it is a fact that both educational programs lack in areas that the other is strong in. We can all learn from each other. We need to take care of each other too. I wish everyone the best in whatever path you take to be the best you can be for the care of our world.

sorry but I stop reading, because i was laughing so hard, when you mentioned that doctors dont practice evidence based practice or medicine. That's the freaking entire curriculum of medicine and residency.
 
Just of the thought of obtaining a degree (nursing) via internet makes it very credible that DNP's are = or > as MD's. LOL.
 
I have the same sentiment. The DNP is a JOKE(I only wish I could have been a P.A. going to school online or get my medical degree online). I have noticed that a lot,not all by far, of nurses(aides included!) have an inferiority complex....just now I am leaving after putting a COPDer into the hospital for observation and she(the aide) has the "education" to say well her CXR looks the best it has EVER looked and she doesn't need to be admitted(Never mind the abnormal EKG)(Again this is an aide) I am kind of curt and state-"You don't know how to read plain films, I have been to school a few years for this and I still don't know everything about plain films". She gets pissed makes a few under her breath comments and says she has nothing say to me.... Never thought I would see the day an A..WIPER could challenge someone the is 1.)Medically trained 2.)Has several college degrees.......

Anyway, I think that this train of thought is started in some nursing schools-Even if your outclassed/outgunned act like you know whats going on if you have no ideal what is truly going on clinically. I have several "horror" stories about some nurses that want to be providers(most are the 1-2years out of school) such as the one that involved my patient last week that had a heart rate that dropped to 38/36BPM on several occasions even when getting excited with +CP. All the nurse could say was well his TNI is negative and he doesn't need to be transferred(I sent the patient out and he ended up getting emergency surgery per a family friend of the patient who is a provider:eek:)

I apologize about the rant but a little irritated and needed to vent! I do think that the DNP makes no senses, NP's should ONLY be called a Doctor in Academic settings, and patient's should be explicitly educated about this via all available resources. Also any NP that states they know more than a M.D./D.O. should be FORCED to take the Step I-III and the board speciality in their respective field that the Doc's take(I heard one NP state her Ph.D was stronger than an M.D. due to her doing a thesis.....wth how does that help the patient in the ER/OR/IP/OP clinically:confused:) and be held to the same standards.

Sorry about rants and typos,
Goodnight!
 
Top