Here's a post of mine that you seem to have missed in the preallo thread:
Here's a post of mine that you seem to have missed in the preallo thread:
Quote:
Here's a sample curriculum from a BSN-DNP program (at Duke):
http://nursing.duke.edu/wysiwyg/down...t_MAT_Plan.pdf
You need 73 credits to go from a college degree to a doctorate. That turns out to be less than 3 years.
Now, let's look at the fluff courses that aren't really clinically useful: Research Methods (3 credits), Health Services Program Planning and Outcomes Analysis (3 credits), Applied Statistics (2 credits), Research Utilization in Advanced Nursing Practice (3 credits), Data Driven Health Care Improvement (4 credits), Evidence Based Practice and Applied Statistics I & II (7 credits, since you told me medicine is not evidence based), Effective Leadership (2 credits), Transforming the Nation's Health (3 credits), DNP Capstone (6 credits), Health Systems Transformation (3 credits), Financial Management & Budget Planning (3 credits).
Here are the clinically useful courses: Population-Based Approach to Healthcare (3 credits), Clinical Pharmacology and Interventions for Advanced Practice Nursing (3 credits), Managing Common Acute and Chronic Health Problems I (3 credits), Selected Topics in Advanced Pathophysiology (3 credits), Diagnostic Reasoning & Physical Assessment in Advanced Nursing Practice (4 credits), Common Acute and Chronic Health Problems II (3 credits), Sexual and Reproductive Health (2 credits), Nurse Practitioner Residency: Adult Primary Care (3 credits), Electives (12 credits).
So, out of the 73 credits needed to go from BSN to DNP, 37 credits are not clinically useful. In addition, the number of required clinical hours is 612 hours (unless I miscounted something)!! Wow! And the NP program is designed the same way, with a bunch of fluff courses (11 credits out of 43 required are fluff) and requires 612 hours as well:
http://nursing.duke.edu/wysiwyg/down...rriculum_2.pdf
Here are the curricula to several other programs:
* University of Arizona:
http://www.nursing.arizona.edu/OSA/P...ndout_2008.pdf 31/74 credits are fluff.
* Loyola's MSN to DNP:
http://www.luc.edu/nursing/dnp/curriculum.shtml (where are the basic science classes? They're all public health classes!!)
* MGH BSN to DNP:
http://www.mghihp.edu/nursing/postpr...ulum.html?cw=1 (35/72 credits for Adult DNP are fluff while 46/83 credits for DNP in FM are fluff)
It's kinda scary how inadequate that training is in order to practice medicine independently. You can't really count prior nursing experience as time practicing medicine because you weren't practicing medicine during that time nor were you thinking in a medical manner (ie. the way a physician would). Nursing clinical hours might help you transition into medicine but they are NOT a replacement for medical clinical hours.
Now, just for comparison, let's look at a med school curriculum. I'll point out all the fluff courses here too. Here's an example from Baylor School of Medicine for M1/M2 (
http://www.bcm.edu/osa/handbook/?PMID=5608) and for M3/M4 (
http://www.bcm.edu/osa/handbook/?PMID=7463):
Fluff courses at Baylor School of Medicine during M1/M2 years ONLY: Patient, Physician, and Society-1 (4.5 credits), Patient, Physician, and Society-2 (6 credits), Bioethics (2.5 credits), Integrated Problem Solving 1 & 2 (10 credits).
Useful courses at Baylor School of Medicine during M1/M2 years ONLY: Foundations Basic to Science of Medicine: Core Concepts (14.5 credits), Cardiovascular-Renal-Resp (11.5 credits), GI-Met-Nut-Endo-Reproduction (14 credits), General Pathology & General Pharmacology (6.5 credits), Head & Neck Anatomy (4.5 credits), Immunology (5 credits), Behavioral Sciences (6.5 credits), Infectious Disease (13 credits), Nervous System (14 credits), Cardiology (4.5 credits), Respiratory (3.5 credits), Renal (4 credits), Hematology/Oncology (5 credits), Hard & Soft Tissues (3 credits), Gastroenterology (4 credits), Endocrinology (3.5 credits), GU/Gyn (3 credits), Genetics (3 credits), Age Related Topics (2.5 credits).
For only the M1/M2 years at Baylor, there's 162.5 total credits. Out of these 162.5 credits, 23 credits are fluff.
Core Clerkships during M3 (useful clinical training): Medicine (24 credits, 12 weeks), Surgery (16 credits, 8 weeks), Group A selective (8 credits, 4 weeks), Psychiatry (16 credits, 8 weeks), Neurology (8 credits, 4 weeks), Pediatrics (16 credits, 8 weeks), Ob/Gyn (16 credits, 8 weeks), Family & Community Medicine (8 credits, 4 weeks), Clinical Half-Day (includes Clincal Application of Radiology, Clinical Application of Pathology, Clinical Application of Nutrition, Clinical Evidence Based Medicine, Longitudinal Ambulatory Care Experience, and Apex -- 23 credits).
So, without even taking into consideration M4 electives and required subinternships (which are usually in Medicine and Surgery), medical students already have a far superior medical training than NPs or DNPs. Other examples of med school curricula:
* UMich M1/M2:
http://www.med.umich.edu/lrc/medcurr...gram/m1m2.html
* UMich M3/M4:
http://www.med.umich.edu/lrc/medcurr...gram/m3m4.html
* Duke:
http://medschool.duke.edu/modules/so...index.php?id=2
You can get a BSN to DNP in about 3 years according to many programs I've looked at. Medicine involves 4 years of medical school and a minimum of 3 years of residency before allowing independent practice. Here's the math:
BSN to DNP: 2.5 - 3 years of training; longer if courses taken part-time; 600-1000 clinical hours!
BS/BA to MD/DO: 4 years med school + 3-5 years residency: 7-11 years of training; not possible part-time; clinical hours > 17000
So, as you can see, NPs/DNPs seem to receive less than 25% of the clinically relevant training that physicians get. It would be literally impossible for NPs/DNPs to gain the same level of knowledge as an attending physician in the same specialty; the rigorous training a physician goes through is there to ensure a high level of competency. Fourth-year med students have more basic science and clinical training than NPs/DNPs receive. Should we allow M4s to practice independently? Shortcutting through that under the guise of "patient care" is deceptive.
Is that good enough evidence for ya?