do american medical students really use textbooks?

[shreypete]

I was just wondering, I've been reading quite a few posts on this forum and I get the feeling that most of the students in the States use review books, notes, outlines for study rather than a textbook. Is this true?

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[Blesbok]

The only true text book that I have used in medical school is robbin's. All the other books have either been review books or subject specific paperbacks.

There is no point to reading a text book most of the time. There is simply too much filler and it wastes too much time that could be otherwise spent learning relevant material.

 

[thedelicatessen]

Textbooks are usually too long-winded for all the stuff we have to learn. The powerpoints and syllabi that the profs provide are more directly related to what will be on the tests. I do have a few old textbooks but look at them rarely. The books I use most are review books to put things in perspective and to prep for shelf exams and my anatomy atlas when I was taking gross anatomy.

 

[SeventhSon]

Oh trust me I would rather use textbooks only, but you really have no choice when professors test you on their lectures. Textbooks tend to be used only for clarification.

 

[cpants]

I used Big Moore a lot during anatomy. Also, I read every word of Costanzo's Physiology.

 

[shreypete]

Wow you guys seem to be lucky. In our case we have to use textbooks under every circumstance and that sucks big time. So we end up having to study like tons of chapters within a week and we're tests on such minute details that it makes me feel like strangling my profs.

 

[Tiger26]

Goljan and Wikipedia=goldmine

 

[Occams Razor]

to me, its all about the time involved and the main goals.

here, we're still tested on minute details, but the same information is found in review books and lecture notes as well as the textbooks, and the review books are good for mnemonics so it's not as hard to remember.

 

[shreypete]

Many European doctors comment on American doctors says that they lack strong fundamentals (but are good are the more advanced stuff) because they don't stick to the traditional textbooks.....what is you take on that?

 

[GatorsWearJorts]

Many European doctors comment on American doctors says that they lack strong fundamentals (but are good are the more advanced stuff) because they don't stick to the traditional textbooks.....what is you take on that?

Many American doctors consider European doctors to be mildly ******ed.

 

[Blesbok]

Many European doctors comment on American doctors says that they lack strong fundamentals (but are good are the more advanced stuff) because they don't stick to the traditional textbooks.....what is you take on that?

Many american doctors specialize, which means that it would only make sense for them to be good at the more advanced stuff and less familiar with general practice. Apparently, many European doctors fail to realize the obvious.

 

[Toohotinvegas33]

Many American doctors consider European doctors to be mildly ******ed.

 

[vtucci]

I tend to buy a large assortment of textbooks and review books.

For text books during third year, I have used the required texts in Surgery, Family Medicine, Emergency Medicine, Ob/gyn, newborn, psych and Neuro. As a rule, the textbooks were longwinded and not as well written as the review books.

During the preclinical years, I used texts in all the subjects and found them to be a complete waste of time except for Robbins' path. Golijan's review was still better IMHO for what we need on a day to day basis.

We have had some 4th year visiting students at my school from Europe and I have been largely underwhelmed. It seems like many of the students have been schooled in theory with absolutely no practical application in patient care or management. Perhaps this varies by country, but I noticed very little independent thought or intellectual curosity and a lot more deference based on level of training (i.e., not questioning the attending's plan or intern's plan and accepting things as gospel). Personally, I learn by questioning the thought process of my teams and sometimes I even disagree and will speak up to be a patient advocate if I truly believe something is in the best interests of my patient. Speaking at length about the mechanisms of action of a particular pharmaceutical that they have memorized is great but if you can't diagnose the patient, how on earth will you pick the appropriate med?

 

[umz]

shrey, jste Čech?

 

[coffeebythelake]

Most medical schools provide notes. I rarely use textbooks. Rohen's, Netter's, Stedman's has everything I need for reference.

 

[TXSurgResident]

Yes. Textbooks are a waste of money. The test material is taken from the notes and review books.

Until July 1st.

It turns out that the patients didn't read the review notes (although they didn't read the textbooks either). Most general surgery residents have a copy or access to one or more of Cameron/ACS Surgery/Mastery/Sabiston and a review book for the absite. I admittedly wouldn't buy one in medical school though. I am guessing the same is true for other specialties.

Med students continue to impress me with their ability to complain no matter which side of whatever pond they're from. The euros get more props though, 'cuz they have funky accents...

 

[MDpride]

Yes. Textbooks are a waste of money. The test material is taken from the notes and review books.

What abiut third yr,fourth y and residency?
Does the review and notes cover info required to make diagnosis and treatment?

textbook may be required at some point?

 

[BigRedBeta]

Pre-clinical books I used -Clinically Oriented Anatomy, Robbins, and Pathophysiology of Heart Disease (I'm not sure if that counts as a text book or a specialty book). I made the mistake of buying some other texts, but I usually never made it through them. I usually spent a lot more time on lecture notes and then used some review books to fill in details. My biochem class actually used a review text as our "required text" and it was probably the best biochem book I've ever used.

Clinical - used a textbook for general surgery because it was my first clerkship and I actually liked it; it was "Essentials of General Surgery" by Lawrence. Have not found similar luck with other texts in other clerkships and as such have used a number of different types of review books. The biggest issue is that I just don't have the time to go through really detailed textbooks for things that don't really affect how I'm going to approach a patient. I'd much rather get the overview of the subject and a discussion on what to do next (since that's such a significant portion of shelf questions) than to review pathophys and the like.

 

[FenderHM]

you shouldnt think that shy and subordinate european students rotating here lack intellectual curiosity or practical knowledge, think of what effect the culture shock probably has on them. you can bet if you rolled up to a hospital in (czech reb, france, germany whatever) they would probably think you are loud, disrepectful, and generally lacking perspective

 

[remo]

As an MS1 I read texts all the time. Usually just one pass to get a feel for the material. Then I go to review books and core notes. If I go straight to the review books I usually find I don't really understand the material.

 

[kdburton]

I don't know how anyone could get through anatomy without using an atlas, unless you only studied in the lab. Other than that I bought Robbins, Medical Physiology (boron & boulpeap), Lippincotts Biochem, and Wheater's Functional Histology. I've referenced all of those books plenty of times throughout school, but I don't sit down and really read a while section - just to get a more thorough understanding of something I missed in lecture or if it wasn't explained very well. I have Gouljan as well, but I haven't even cracked it (probably a mistake on my part after reading this thread hah)

 

[shreypete]

dobry den UMZ, nejsem čech. Jsem američan ale studuju v české republice (na Karlova Univerzita v Praze) a taky nemluvím dobře česky. Myslím, že jste česky. Je pravda?

 

[vtucci]

you shouldnt think that shy and subordinate european students rotating here lack intellectual curiosity or practical knowledge, think of what effect the culture shock probably has on them. you can bet if you rolled up to a hospital in (czech reb, france, germany whatever) they would probably think you are loud, disrepectful, and generally lacking perspective

I am certain that I or any American student rotating at a European hospital (without major attitude shift prior to embarking on the rotation) would be viewed as aggressive/insubordinate and loud. Even within the American system acceptable personality features vary by location (i.e., aggressiveness/assertiveness is often more valued in the northeast and not as well considered elsewhere). It would be politic to be aware of these cultural differences before embarking on such a rotation and adapt accordingly or forgo it. As far as lacking perspective, I will absolutely concede that Americans focus on our ability to diagnose and treat the patient (even at our level of training), which IMHO is better for our patients. That being said, I can see how some might consider this as too focused and not broad enough because we do not tend to memorize details that can be looked up online.

It is likely a matter of priorities. I was merely attempting to answer the OP's question regarding whether American students were weak on fundamentals because we do not use traditional textbooks. I think that this depends on what is meant by fundamentals. If we mean, clinical diagnosis, reasoning and treatment plans, I would say no. If we mean diagnosing pneumonia, small pneumothorax (<10%) without the benefit of Xrays or other technologies and just our stethoscopes, I think we are less comfortable in making the call than if we had the advanced technology. In this era of CYA medicine, I think American students and practitioners are more reliant on laboratory data and advanced technologies (MRI/MRA, CTs etc) because we have to be and are not able to rely solely on clinical judgment. Many of the textbooks are authored in the states and are now including images and advanced technologies in their cases.

Also, I never said that the student(s) in question were shy. In fact, they were quite outgoing and amiable. With respect to the practical knowledge, they themselves stated that their practical knowledge was not at the level of their American counterparts because of the way in which the medical curriculum was designed. They seemed to have difficulty answering questions from the attendings/seniors on assessment and plan at the level that was expected of the third year students on the team and did not take ownership for their patients. The students indicated that their programs expected that they would get much of their clinical experience during their intern year (which is like the old traditional intern year in the states).

 

[IcedTea]

I use textbooks, outlines, and review books. Most of the time I'm using review books though, I find textbooks too cumbersome. Too much info.
F*ck notes though, I absolutely detest studying from notes. Some find it useful, but f*ck that **** is what I say lol.

 

[nlax30]

Also depends on the curriculum. We're all PBL here so I have a suitcase of books that I go through.

 

[umz]

dobry den UMZ, nejsem &#269;ech. Jsem ameri&#269;an ale studuju v &#269;esk&#233; republice (na Karlova Univerzita v Praze) a taky nemluv&#237;m dob&#345;e &#269;esky. Mysl&#237;m, &#382;e jste &#269;esky. Je pravda?

Dobry den. Nejsem &#268;e&#353;ka. Jsem americk&#225; studentka. U&#269;&#237;m se &#269;esky na univerzit&#283;. Taky nemluv&#237;m dob&#345;e &#269;esky. Myslila jsem o Karlova Universita pro l&#233;ka&#345;skou &#353;kolu ale &#353;est rok je p&#345;&#237;li&#353; dlouho!! (u&#382; jsem studovala &#269;ty&#345;i rok..)

 

[shreypete]

Ano to je moc dlouho ale nejsem studoval/ud&#283;lal "undergrad". Ale, souhlas&#237;m s v&#225;s &#382;e &#353;est rok je moc dlouho a vyvrt&#225;vac&#237;. Douf&#225;m &#382;e mu&#382;u dod&#283;lat "preclinical roku".....kter&#253; roku jste studovali?

 

[umz]

Ano to je moc dlouho ale nejsem studoval/ud&#283;lal "undergrad". Ale, souhlasím s vás že šest rok je moc dlouho a vyvrtávací. Doufám že mužu dod&#283;lat "preclinical roku".....který roku jste studovali?

dokon&#269;uju na univerzit&#283; v kv&#283;tnu. tak budu za&#269;ínat léka&#345;skou školu na pozdim. jste studenty prvního ro&#269;níku, ano?

 

[shreypete]

ano...

 

[lunaire]

si...si... claro que...

 

[shreypete]

que es claro? entiende Ud. czech?

 

[Doctor J]

use the pm function.

 

[umz]

we were talking about medical school so i don't see why it's any different than speaking in english.

 

[Tired]

I was just wondering, I've been reading quite a few posts on this forum and I get the feeling that most of the students in the States use review books, notes, outlines for study rather than a textbook. Is this true?

Don't be confused by the responses you've gotten here: most (if not all) our classes have textbooks, either required or suggested. It's just that many of us use these as reference guides, rather than our primary source for studying.

 

[shreypete]

Thank for for the reply Tired. I was just looking for that.

 

[spreebee]

I use textbooks, outlines, and review books. Most of the time I'm using review books though, I find textbooks too cumbersome. Too much info.
F*ck notes though, I absolutely detest studying from notes. Some find it useful, but f*ck that **** is what I say lol.

That's nice that you don't have to use class notes or textbooks in any of your classes... In my classes they test us on more detail than most review books can offer to ensure our understanding of medicine. Review books are a good supplement but are an arrangement of certain topics that are tested on the boards with obvious gaps in material used for a normal medical class... For example, most learn how to read electrocardiograms in medical school where BRS physiology has nothing on it... No doubt, you might be able to pass your school exams but may short yourself of knowledge you might need later on...

 

[Law2Doc]

What abiut third yr,fourth y and residency?
Does the review and notes cover info required to make diagnosis and treatment?

textbook may be required at some point?

Not really. In 3rd and 4th year you study by regularly reading up on patients' ailments, surgeries you are about to attend, and things you were or anticipate you will be pimped on. Key resources tend to be online services like uptodate, or various pocket resources. You are less likely to use a textbook in the later years than the early ones.

As Tired indicated, there is a textbook recommended for every class. But they are very definitely your secondary resource (if you don't understand the notes) and it's generally not time well spent to sit down and read it chapter by chapter. But bear in mind that the note set and lecture notes you will get are voluminous -- often more pages than any text book, so it's not like you are going to class and reading nothing. You will have enough to read to fill all the hours of the day even without touching the textbooks.

 

[lankysudanese]

I am an American student, and I read textbooks for knowledge and review books for the end-of-rotation shelf exams. Both of them serve a purpose. You can not even begin to feel comfortable calling yourself a physician and taking care of patient until you have read a fair bit of Harrison's, Nelson or Schwartz. But then again, you can not even begin to feel comfortable sitting for a shelf exam until you have read Step Up to Medicine, PreTest or Case Files. See the dillema that we are in?

On another note, I have to say that I have been more than impressed by our international counterparts. I have worked with 2 students, one from the UK (Imperial) and one from Singapore. Their mastery of obtaining history and performing a focused physical exam far exceeds that of anyone in my class. They have a differential diagnosis of every single sign/symptom and are pretty good at critical thinking. More importantly, because they relied more on textbooks than review notes, their knowledge of medical conditions is at a much more detailed and sofisticated level. Compared to these guys, I felt very inadequately-trained and that I had much more to learn, which came as a reality check since (according to my evaluations) I was starting to develop into a well-versed and competent 4th year. Not trying to brag, but it goes to show you that there is always something that you could improve on, and that humility and hardwork are the keys to success.

 

[shreypete]

Well-said lankysudanese, your comments are similar to what I've heard from many other students studying in the States who went to Europe for a few rotations. I think review books are a good way to passing the exams but when it ultimately comes to becoming a "well-rounded" doctor...i think textbooks do go into a certain detail with lots of clinical correlations...i guess reading both is always an advantage....but that's not an option for procrastinators or even hard-working medical students sometimes (due to the sheer amount of material they have to learn).....

 

[MONKEYBOY]

A close friend of mine in medical school uses 100% powerpoints made by the profs.

Sounds like a waste of prof's time and risky. If a different 'textbook' powerpoint is made at each individual school and not reviewed like good texts are, that's a lot of hours by all the individual profs making powerpoints instead of reviewing a set and distributing it out.

They get paid by the hour, not the production. Thus, this mentioned above will never happen.

 

[Medinsane]

Goljan and Wikipedia=goldmine

Hahahhaha. I use Wikipedia too. It's just so wonderful. Not, but I do use textbooks like Robbins Pathology book for reference.