DO and Primary Care

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Spectreman

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SDN can be brutal sometimes, so it's with trepidation that I ask this question:

I've been keeping a mental tally on what OMS-1 and 2s have said they want to go into at the school I'm currently attending. So far, out of over 60 students I've asked, TWO have said they want to go into primary care (one Peds and the other lifestyle medicine). At least 30 have said they want to go into surgery, with about 10 saying orthopedics. The others saying things like IR, Anesthesiology, Derm, and Ophthalmology. NOT ONE has said they want to go into FM, yet that's our school's second highest placement. Soooo, what's up with that?

My question is... Does anyone have a guess as to what percentage of PC residents are falling into it because they changed their mind during year 3? And what percentage feel like they were forced to go that route due to boards or whatever? Most match lists at DO schools are like 70% FM and IM, but almost nobody is telling me that's what they want to go into, so at what point does that change and why? Or at least, what's the most common reason?

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SDN can be brutal sometimes, so it's with trepidation that I ask this question:

I've been keeping a mental tally on what OMS-1 and 2s have said they want to go into at the school I'm currently attending. So far, out of over 60 students I've asked, TWO have said they want to go into primary care (one Peds and the other lifestyle medicine). At least 30 have said they want to go into surgery, with about 10 saying orthopedics. The others saying things like IR, Anesthesiology, Derm, and Ophthalmology. NOT ONE has said they want to go into FM, yet that's our school's second highest placement. Soooo, what's up with that?

My question is... Does anyone have a guess as to what percentage of PC residents are falling into it because they changed their mind during year 3? And what percentage feel like they were forced to go that route due to boards or whatever? Most match lists at DO schools are like 70% FM and IM, but almost nobody is telling me that's what they want to go into, so at what point does that change and why? Or at least, what's the most common reason?
I talk to one or two master's students and hardly ever see them interact with the med students. Interesting place you attend.
 
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I talk to one or two master's students and hardly ever see them interact with the med students. Interesting place you attend.
Just started Neuro, so we're back to interacting with med students again. Also frequently asked students about it during dissection last semester. It's n0t just where I am though, because I also asked all of the med students I met during interviews. Almost never was told FM, I can think of one gal at Campbell.
 
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Just started Neuro, so we're back to interacting with med students again. Also frequently asked students about it during dissection last semester. It's n0t just where I am though, because I also asked all of the med students I met during interviews. Almost never was told FM, I can think of one gal at Campbell.
Right on. As an anecdote, I want to do peds and the speciality most wanted by people I have talked to in my class is EM and FM. With quite a bit of peds thrown in.

To answer your original question I'm sure there are always a splattering of people who go into something they did not intend or originally wanted. But, that is a very nuanced and personable question that I don't think fits a one answer be all type of response. I have several friends and acquaintances that wanted competitive specialities (both US MD and DO students/ residents now) but ended up hating it during third year. But, this is just my anecdotal experience like the one you have had.

Further, even though I want peds I don't want to do PC and know quite a few of my classmates wanting peds who also want to subspecialize. So, when we match it with look like primary care, but a solid chunk of us won't end up in gen peds. Just some food for thought.
 
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I definitely see more OMS-2s saying things like EM. I also get that IM is way too broad to just call primary care, but that's how the schools count it.

It sounds like the actual percentage of students who take their step/level 1 and feel like they're pigeon holed into something they don't want is actually quite small. It's something I genuinely worry about.
 
Is the FM match inflated by a number of uncompetitive students? Yes. Are they the majority of the people matching FM? Probably not.

It is also worth emphasizing that people do change their mind within medical school about what they want to do either through experience or through realizing they're not likely competitive for a field. Likewise at most DO schools most of the faculty will be primary care or IM doctors. Exposure to such faculty will affect what students believe they are interested in and represents impactful medicine.

Overall there is a shift these days from FM towards IM at most DO schools as the population moves more towards being more academically oriented.
 
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I definitely see more OMS-2s saying things like EM. I also get that IM is way too broad to just call primary care, but that's how the schools count it.

It sounds like the actual percentage of students who take their step/level 1 and feel like they're pigeon holed into something they don't want is actually quite small. It's something I genuinely worry about.
I think it depends on what your career goals are, dude/dudette. If you want to be a cardiologist at an ivory tower, then ya you have an uphill battle. Same with surgery of any kind. But, do your do diligence and figure out what you need to be competitive for what you want and go grab that ****. As the wise old patches o'houlihan once said, "You gotta grab it by the horns and hump it into submission!"
 
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I started school this year, but then realized I am not a stellar student academically, in research, or extracurricularly, so I dropped my orthopedic surgery dream hahaha! For the record, I am looking at gen surg, family medicine, neurology, internal medicine, and anesthesiology.
 
I started school this year, but then realized I am not a stellar student academically, in research, or extracurricularly, so I dropped my orthopedic surgery dream hahaha! For the record, I am looking at gen surg, family medicine, neurology, internal medicine, and anesthesiology.
Thanks for your input! Sorry you feel like you're walking away from an ortho dream. I'm going to start med school in the fall and I want to go into surgery, but I get met with a lot of snarky scoffs when I get asked, even though I worked for 5 years on a med/surge floor.
 
Thanks for your input! Sorry you feel like you're walking away from an ortho dream. I'm going to start med school in the fall and I want to go into surgery, but I get met with a lot of snarky scoffs when I get asked, even though I worked for 5 years on a med/surge floor.
Good luck to you!
 
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Thanks for your input! Sorry you feel like you're walking away from an ortho dream. I'm going to start med school in the fall and I want to go into surgery, but I get met with a lot of snarky scoffs when I get asked, even though I worked for 5 years on a med/surge floor.
Just say you want to do FM and then match into surgery, people will hate you less
 
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I think people change their minds as med school progresses. I'm pretty sure 40% of my class wanted to do ortho on day one. Now people are starting to realize where they fall academically, more will realize this when they get their board scores back. Probably a lot of people will get out into rotations and realize they like primary care more. Finally, medical school is 4 years, by the time you are done you may have different priorities or a different perspective which leads you to primary care.
 
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As people go, people change their minds for different reasons. Some people realize after a few years that they don't to spend the rest of their lives working 60-80 hours. Or they get their score back on the COMLEX/USMLE and they fear not matching more than they fear FM. Or they get tired of the rat-race that is medical school and would rather do something more relaxed (like FM). Or they just legitimately find out they like it more.

Your school isn't going to stop you from doing what you want to do. You make your path, don't worry about what other people are going into.

However, at the same time, you need to be realistic and know that most people (even at MD schools) don't go do ortho. Gen surgery is kind of a different creature all together, but why any one would want to do that is beyond me.
 
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Also, I think plenty of people have IM/FM on their list some where, but it's much more interesting to lead with something else. If I were picking tomorrow for example:
1) EM
2) Anesthesia
3) IM

So, after a few rotations if I find out I hate my top two...it doesn't take long to make it down to IM.
 
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At my school the vast majority enter genuinely wanting to go into primary care. Most schools where this is not the case, everyone wants to be a surgeon until they go on rotation and see that it's just another job like anything else and that it is a difficult lifestyle. They usually change their mind after that.
 
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Considering that 2/3rd of DOs go into PC, I'd say you're sampling a very unrealistic group of students.

Anyone going to a DO school just needs to have eyes open.

And contrary to premed notions, PC is not the 7th Circle of Hell, either.

SDN can be brutal sometimes, so it's with trepidation that I ask this question:

I've been keeping a mental tally on what OMS-1 and 2s have said they want to go into at the school I'm currently attending. So far, out of over 60 students I've asked, TWO have said they want to go into primary care (one Peds and the other lifestyle medicine). At least 30 have said they want to go into surgery, with about 10 saying orthopedics. The others saying things like IR, Anesthesiology, Derm, and Ophthalmology. NOT ONE has said they want to go into FM, yet that's our school's second highest placement. Soooo, what's up with that?

My question is... Does anyone have a guess as to what percentage of PC residents are falling into it because they changed their mind during year 3? And what percentage feel like they were forced to go that route due to boards or whatever? Most match lists at DO schools are like 70% FM and IM, but almost nobody is telling me that's what they want to go into, so at what point does that change and why? Or at least, what's the most common reason?
 
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Considering that 2/3rd of DOs go into PC, I'd say you're sampling a very unrealistic group of students.

Anyone going to a DO school just needs to have eyes open.

And contrary to premed notions, PC is not the 7th Circle of Hell, either.
Nah, PC is the 7th circle of hell. you might as well be unemployed. Be a primary physician if you want to go through 7 years of hard work and come out mid to lower class because of debt.
 
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Nah, PC is the 7th circle of hell. you might as well be unemployed. Be a primary physician if you want to go through 7 years of hard work and come out mid to lower class because of debt.

Something tells me you have a skewed view of what mid-lower class is...
 
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Go google it, ain't going to do your work for you, big boy.
 
I think people change their minds as med school progresses. I'm pretty sure 40% of my class wanted to do ortho on day one. Now people are starting to realize where they fall academically, more will realize this when they get their board scores back. Probably a lot of people will get out into rotations and realize they like primary care more. Finally, medical school is 4 years, by the time you are done you may have different priorities or a different perspective which leads you to primary care.

I would like to think I gunned people out of the ortho spots actually ;)
 
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People always seem to "change their minds" after board scores come out. I wonder why...
 
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Seems like you have no idea how any of this works....
Nah, I will have 400k - 500k in debt after graduation. If I go to primary care for 200k (then take out tax -> ~130-140k really). Let's be middle class until I am in my 40s and 50s.
 
Nah, I will have 400k - 500k in debt after graduation. If I go to primary care for 200k (then take out tax -> ~130-140k really). Let's be middle class until I am in my 40s and 50s.

I suggest you do some more research.
 
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Not really seeing as you literally spout nonsense that is essentially an uneducated opinion.
Damn, that's rough. Always resorting to insult when you could've just ignored me. Eh, can't expect any differently from you.
 
I've done enough. Have you made it into med school yet?

The amount of confidence you have in your ignorance is pretty impressive, especially for a pre-med.

The field of PC is in such dire need to attract physicians right now that many hospital systems are offering some pretty unbelievable deals to recruit new grads. The larger systems have slowly began to realize that PC is a valuable referral base and subsidizing these fields can generate positive revenue per dollar invested. Loan repayment assistance is nearly ubiquitous right now with private employers and government/academic entities as well. If you go into primary care and live modestly your first 2-3 years as an attending while also moonlighting some and working with skilled nursing facilities, I assure you that your loan burden will disappear rapidly. Also, even with rising tuition rates, if you don't forebear during residency and don't go to some insanely expensive out of state school, you should be able to keep you maximum debt under 300K total.

There's more money in other fields, yes but those figures do not come with their own sacrifices. I will say with total confidence that any physician in any specialty, working full time in a city that is not NY, will enjoy a lifestyle in the upper 3-5% of society.
 
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The amount of confidence you have in your ignorance is pretty impressive, especially for a pre-med.

The field of PC is in such dire need to attract physicians right now that many hospital systems are offering some pretty unbelievable deals to recruit new grads. The larger systems have slowly began to realize that PC is a valuable referral base and subsidizing these fields can generate positive revenue per dollar invested. Loan repayment assistance is nearly ubiquitous right now with private employers and government/academic entities as well. If you go into primary care and live modestly your first 2-3 years as an attending while also moonlighting some and working with skilled nursing facilities, I assure you that your loan burden will disappear rapidly. Also, even with rising tuition rates, if you don't forebear during residency and don't go to some insanely expensive out of state school, you should be able to keep you maximum debt under 300K total.

There's more money in other fields, yes but those figures do not come with their own sacrifices. I will say with total confidence that any physician in any specialty, working full time in a city that is not NY, will enjoy a lifestyle in the upper 3-5% of society.
Nah son, I'm a med student just like you, can't be said for AnatomyGrey though. From what I've seen, unless you go out to the rurals, you will probably start out with 160-200k. Of course, you can work your way up to 250k and 300k once you get couple years of experience and work hard. Or you can do loan repayment program and stay in rural for 10 years.

200k is not bad, but it is not rich, especially if you have 400-500k in debt like me.
 
Nah, I will have 400k - 500k in debt after graduation. If I go to primary care for 200k (then take out tax -> ~130-140k really). Let's be middle class until I am in my 40s and 50s.

If you set aside the time to do the math in an absolute worst case scenario....

A 10-year repayment plan (which like I said above, you should no do but this is worst case scenario) on 450K is $4800/month

After tax income for a PCP making 200K is ~150K with deductions but this can vary by state. Income = $12500/month

Net after tax income would be 12500 - 4800 = $7700/month

That net income after loan repayment is equivalent to a single employee that grosses ~$120K/year.

This would put you solidly in the "Upper Middle Class" by Census Bureau standards during loan repayment which should end around age ~38 if you do a 3 year residency.

IN SUMMARY: Even the absolute worst case scenario for a medical school graduate is significantly better than the reality you suggest and berate others for correctly pointing out as being a falsehood.
 
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Nah son, I'm a med student just like you, can't be said for AnatomyGrey though. From what I've seen, unless you go out to the rurals, you will probably start out with 160-200k. Of course, you can work your way up to 250k and 300k once you get couple years of experience and work hard. Or you can do loan repayment program and stay in rural for 10 years.

200k is not bad, but it is not rich, especially if you have 400-500k in debt like me.

Change your status.
 
Nah, PC is the 7th circle of hell. you might as well be unemployed. Be a primary physician if you want to go through 7 years of hard work and come out mid to lower class because of debt.

The amount of confidence you have in your ignorance is pretty impressive, especially for a pre-med.

The field of PC is in such dire need to attract physicians right now that many hospital systems are offering some pretty unbelievable deals to recruit new grads. The larger systems have slowly began to realize that PC is a valuable referral base and subsidizing these fields can generate positive revenue per dollar invested. Loan repayment assistance is nearly ubiquitous right now with private employers and government/academic entities as well. If you go into primary care and live modestly your first 2-3 years as an attending while also moonlighting some and working with skilled nursing facilities, I assure you that your loan burden will disappear rapidly. Also, even with rising tuition rates, if you don't forebear during residency and don't go to some insanely expensive out of state school, you should be able to keep you maximum debt under 300K total.

There's more money in other fields, yes but those figures do not come with their own sacrifices. I will say with total confidence that any physician in any specialty, working full time in a city that is not NY, will enjoy a lifestyle in the upper 3-5% of society.

Not to mention if you want to work general surgeon hours of 80hrs/week you will be pulling in 300k and you won't be locked into it for the rest of your career. Do it for the first 5 years outside of residency and then scale back to outpatient only
 
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@Ngo3 I can tell from your recent post history across basically every speciality (including FM, ironically), that you are really worried about the financial aspect.

I promise as long as you don't overextend, you will never go hungry working as a physician. Even with that large amount of debt. I don't know you, or how you grew up, but anything >100k a year after taxes and massive loan repayment is a good financial situation.

But as I can see from your Neurology forum post, you can only bear to live in NYC or LA so maybe things will be tough.
 
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Nah son, I'm a med student just like you, can't be said for AnatomyGrey though. From what I've seen, unless you go out to the rurals, you will probably start out with 160-200k. Of course, you can work your way up to 250k and 300k once you get couple years of experience and work hard. Or you can do loan repayment program and stay in rural for 10 years.

200k is not bad, but it is not rich, especially if you have 400-500k in debt like me.
Nope. FM average where I am, starting base, is 220-240. And that is just base. Plenty make more first year out. Note location-- username. I know numerous FM docs in my area making over 350-400. They work a lot, though.
 
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Nah, I will have 400k - 500k in debt after graduation. If I go to primary care for 200k (then take out tax -> ~130-140k really). Let's be middle class until I am in my 40s and 50s.

I'm in primary care, just signed for $300k and 60k annual loan repayment. Plus a ton of other great benefits.

You have no idea what you are talking about.
 
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I'm in primary care, just signed for $300k and 60k annual loan repayment. Plus a ton of other great benefits.

You have no idea what you are talking about.
which rural part of the country are you in?
 
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which rural part of the country are you in?

West, less than an hour from a major metro area of 2+ million.

It's also within a few hours drive of some of the most breathtaking scenery on earth. This isn't some middle of nowhere with nothing to do type of place. I'm actually really really excited about the location.

But beyond all that, this type of offer isn't that hard to come by, and it's not just available to those willing to go rural. My salary would have been the same had I taken a job in the middle of that Metro I'll be near. I just wouldn't have as much loan repayment since some of it is a state rural incentive.
 
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SDN can be brutal sometimes, so it's with trepidation that I ask this question:

I've been keeping a mental tally on what OMS-1 and 2s have said they want to go into at the school I'm currently attending. So far, out of over 60 students I've asked, TWO have said they want to go into primary care (one Peds and the other lifestyle medicine). At least 30 have said they want to go into surgery, with about 10 saying orthopedics. The others saying things like IR, Anesthesiology, Derm, and Ophthalmology. NOT ONE has said they want to go into FM, yet that's our school's second highest placement. Soooo, what's up with that?

My question is... Does anyone have a guess as to what percentage of PC residents are falling into it because they changed their mind during year 3? And what percentage feel like they were forced to go that route due to boards or whatever? Most match lists at DO schools are like 70% FM and IM, but almost nobody is telling me that's what they want to go into, so at what point does that change and why? Or at least, what's the most common reason?

I go to a mid-lower MD program. Although we only match about 10-15 people into Family med there is a similar trend I saw happen when third year began.

When we all started and even throughout most of years 1/2, it was similar as how you described. 1-2 people genuinely wanted FM. Heck even under 10 wanted IM and most were considering gen surg as a backup to whatever crazy specialty they wanted.

1) step 1: the first and foremost reality bomb med students get. The average this last year was 229, so ~30% of the class (poor man statistics) got hit with scores that trashed their dreams. Some with 240+ kept chugging toward their specialty in mind and those in the middle 220-235 were left unsure since their score didn't completely make or break them. Then third year truly began.

2) third year grades: this may vary based on the school, but some people in that 220-235 range were now looking at new specialties they didn't really think about before: anesthesiology, radiology, internal med, and gen surg. They were told marvelous things like "oh don't worry. If you do well in third year and honor your rotations they may overlook that 220 for some surgery places." Mind you only about 10% get honors here and about 60% get "pass" and everyone in between got the high pass equivalent. This was the next big awakening with people who once wanted ortho but couldn't hit step 1, then got hit by the "pass" in surgery and perhaps in multiple other clerkships. It's a rough year for people hoping to show they can excel in their desired core clerkship most important for their field. Medicine especially was a rough reality bomb.

3. The worst of them all. The name brand: Then students with a 220 and straight passes are told they can still do a fellowship even if they squeak into a lower tier IM/gen surg fellowship and this is where the prestige lovers still see that glimmer of light. That's it! They can match into GI and make a ton of money or even breast surgery and be the hot shot in Hollywood, CA! what they fail to mention is the reality of top tier IM residency privilege. There needs to be a way to break into a prestigious IM program to get that GI fellowship in that desirable location and who gets those prestigious IM residencies? The guy with a 240 who honored their IM rotation if they are coming from a low tier MD school. Now wait, why is the average for matched IM 233? Because the NAME OF THE SCHOOL turned out to matter in the end. Feels like betrayal after SDN spewed crap about the name not mattering but in the prestige world, it mattered all along. Yup someone from UCLA school of medicine can match most prestigious IM programs with a 220 on step 1. The top name brands match at the top academic IM residencies to get the GI fellowship.

There's variability with the above but the same idea applies to the most insanely competitive fellowships out of gen surg as well.

After realizing #3 is true after sitting down and talking with an advisor you wish talked to you earlier, and for those who just would rather do outpatient than be a general internist, they turn to FM, psych, and the rest after calling it a day.

A lot of trickling going on with this algorithm but it's basically how you end up dispersing a group of 150-200 first year med students that start off wanting ortho and IR.
 
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Nah son, I'm a med student just like you, can't be said for AnatomyGrey though.

Nah boo you're not, also I wonder what people will do in 3 months when I magically become smarter and more I knowledgeable because I officially started classes.

From what I've seen, unless you go out to the rurals, you will probably start out with 160-200k. Of course, you can work your way up to 250k and 300k once you get couple years of experience and work hard. Or you can do loan repayment program and stay in rural for 10 years.

You've said this in numerous specialty forums, and everyone told you that you were wrong. The only caveat is that it appears that living outside of NY or LA is unearable to you so yeah you will probably have a hard time making big bucks in those saturated markets. News flash, there are other desireable places in the US that aren't as saturated.
 
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Nah boo you're not, also I wonder what people will do in 3 months when I magically become smarter and more I knowledgeable because I officially started classes.



You've said this in numerous specialty forums, and everyone told you that you were wrong. The only caveat is that it appears that living outside of NY or LA is unearable to you so yeah you will probably have a hard time making big bucks in those saturated markets. News flash, there are other desireable places in the US that aren't as saturated.
Damn, you just can't let it go, it's alright premed.
 
Most people I knew started out wanted to be a PC specialty, Psych, or EM. I didn't know a ton of Ortho people. I did know a good number of GenSurg people and only 2 of them didn't match GS. I knew some people that waffled between different things. I was one of them. That all went out the window during 3rd year though. I watched as every other field I considered seemed boring in comparison to FM (and I'm saying that knowing full well that boredom barely describes the sensation others have of FM).

A lot of people changed. Sure some probably did because of Step 1, but plenty did because they had a kid and realized that they didn't want to spend the next 5-7 yrs not seeing them. Others were like, woah, I like Pulm way may than I expected, etc. Its really a personal decision.

I honestly think the biggest mistake you can make is base that decision on how you think others will view/respect you. The further you go, the more you realize that either people don't respect a doc in any other field or when people do respect you it has nothing to do with you specialty and everything to do with whether or not you care about your patients and aren't a tool.

Anyway, do what you love. Don't worry so much about other people.

Nah, I will have 400k - 500k in debt after graduation. If I go to primary care for 200k (then take out tax -> ~130-140k really). Let's be middle class until I am in my 40s and 50s.

The median single American makes $38k/yr after taxes. With that kind of money, even if your debt balloons to $600k, you'd be able to pay >$90k/yr to pay it down (you'd pay it down in less than a decade), while still making as much as the median American. After that, you'll be doing quite well for yourself.

This by the way is completely disregarding participation in any loan repayment programs, which abound in primary care.

Nah son, I'm a med student just like you, can't be said for AnatomyGrey though. From what I've seen, unless you go out to the rurals, you will probably start out with 160-200k. Of course, you can work your way up to 250k and 300k once you get couple years of experience and work hard. Or you can do loan repayment program and stay in rural for 10 years.

200k is not bad, but it is not rich, especially if you have 400-500k in debt like me.

Kaiser is offering $240k-$260k starting in CA, in places that are decidedly not rural.
 
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