DO - Degree Change ...

[sexyman]

---

Members do not see this ad.

I once asked a dentist about the differences between the DDS & DMD degrees. He explained simply that they were the same thing, it just depended on which school you went to. Psychologists can have a PhD or a PsyD. Vets can have a DVM or a VMD (I think it's VMD). THAT'S EXACTLY HOW I FEEL ABOUT THE MD AND DO DEGREES. Do I think there should be a degree change? The answer to that question belongs on another thread.

All bad examples.

 

[amindwalker]

"We the undersigned, support the movement to change the degree of Doctor of Osteopathic Medicine (D.O.) and request the AOA to conduct a vote amongst the osteopathic community regarding this issue." It seems plain that the intention is to see where the members of the Osteopathic community stand on the issue, not to actually change the degree. But, I'm wrong alot.

I, for one, don't need to have MD behind my name. DO is fine. If a physician who is licensed to practice medicine in this country wants to have the letters MD behind their name, what's it to you? I think the degree change is unnecessary. I also think all the freaking out by the previously mentioned "camp A" people is unnecessary. The problem is a degree change would affect all DOs. Some people understandably don't want to have their DO degree changed for them against their will. Plus, I think all of the proposed degree changes are stupid. MD, DO implies inacurately that two doctorate degrees have been earned. OMD, can't stand it. To me it says "I'm sorta like an MD, but not quite, & I have self esteem issues." DOM is taken. MDO is not so bad, but I think some people would make the O really tiny - MDO, MD(o) or simply MD. (.= tiny O as someone already mentioned).

The AMA has no problem with physicians from the UK who have not been awarded an MD degree from anywhere, but rather the equivalent degree MBBS (Bachelor of Medicine and Surgery) using the letters MD behind their names. The health care system in the UK is very different from ours in the US and their medications, being roughly the same, have entirely different names. DOs in this country are educated the same way as MDs except we get a little OMT training (which MDs can pick up from seminars at Harvard). So John Doe, MBBS gets to be John Doe, MD. Such an individual does not possess the MD degree, but rather the right to put MD behind his/her name. I say, let those DOs who want to have the letters MD behind their name be afforded the same courtesy. The DOs who want to display their degree can keep the DO behind their name. Problem solved. Again, I Don't Care.

 

[studentDO]

{slathering on the sarcasm}And what course would you like to replace? Biochemistry? How about Pathology...that's not important.

In all seriousness, many physicians also run a business and, in general, docs are famously terrible at it (which is truly a backhanded compliment in my book). Every doc that runs his/her own business needs to be savvy, but don't make it a part of medical cirricula. Docs gotta do their homework...

Well, I guess we need to completely eliminate the DO/MBA, DP/MPH and DO/PhD programs because if you are saying that med students can't handle a couple of business mgt. classes, then they surely can't handle an additional research degree.

My Chiropractor probably makes more than my DO simply because he holds monthly health seminars and encourages his patients to bring friends and relatives. His patients love him and the mutual respect he has built provides for happier healthier clientele and a lot of respect for the profession.

 

[Dakayus]

I completely agree on changing the title as to signify MEDICAL within the title which will publicly change the perspective of D.O.s. Do you think the average person will understand what doctor of osteopathy is? Of course not. It'll sould like jurist doctorate or some other form of doctor that isn't medically related unless it's boldly emphasized within the degree name.

Although we shouldn't concern out selves with such petty differences, I believe that it will affect some subtle, perhaps major, parts in our medical careers. But being this altruistic of just considering others and not yourself is a bit much I'd say and some recognition for all of the hard work put into the degree should be merited.

Clearly osteopathy should also be in the degree as I want patients to know who to turn to for OMM.

Also j1515, osteopathic medicine has been around for over 100 years, just not in all 50 states, but the factor of the matter that sickofwaiting was implying was that with time as being the "let's wait and see" reagent, DOs haven't really progressed any further in the public eye. Again, it's not about how many patients you see. For example look at PAs. They do pretty well, but my whole family always says "just say no". Also I'd like to say that a lot of people here don't care about OMM. For them, it's only about practicing medicine without alternatively going to FMG schools so why don't you accept that?

Shinken: I doubt all those 70k+ people are aware of the petition, otherwise there'd be more people signing it.

Amindwalker: You phrased whats on my mind very well. *referencing the first post*

It'sElectric: Yes and? How is that a bad thing? The want to help people should drive medical students, not the need to be different.

I think a lot of people here just too arrogant.

 

[studentDO]

This concept is incredibly, incredibly difficult to understand for many pre-meds and current med students.

Maybe what I don't understand is the "why" behind the need for recognition. Yes DO's only comprise about 7% of the physician workforce, but they regularly see about 30% [I have not verified this number but it is close] of patients.

What exactly is the recognition for?

I have a personal friend who is a DO, practicing for 30 years and quite well off. He has a friend who is a DO anesthesiologist who is also doing well. Another friend is an ENT Cosmetics DO and he is doing GREAT. They don't seem to have any problem with recognition. Their patient load is always full.

I personally would prefer if everyone referred to me by my name and not "doctor". I did this as a calling, not a career. I will make plenty of money, but I will make a lot more friends and hopefully lead a lot of people to Christ.

I concede that if there absolutely HAS to be a title change then MD,DO or DO,MD or OMD or DMO or DOM etc ... is fine with me, I don't intend to rely on any epithet.

Once again, just my .02.


Interesting quote:

"Performance as a physician correlates better with proficiency in the humanities and with personal characteristics such as motivation, conscientiousness, integrity, empathy, and a robust psychological constitution."

-Cooper RA. Medical schools and their applicants: an analysis. Health Affairs (Millwood). 2003 Jul-Aug;22(4):71-84.

 

[studentDO]

Having the MD designation in addition to the DO will also solve the problem of international licensing rights and save the AOA time and money in trying to persuade the international medical community that our degree is at par with the MD degree

OK I'll agree with this COMPLETELY, I intend to do a lot of overseas mission work later in life and it would be nice to know that I would carry the same reciprocity of license around the world.

 

[VALSALVA]

Well, I guess we need to completely eliminate the DO/MBA, DP/MPH and DO/PhD programs because if you are saying that med students can't handle a couple of business mgt. classes, then they surely can't handle an additional research degree.

My Chiropractor probably makes more than my DO simply because he holds monthly health seminars and encourages his patients to bring friends and relatives. His patients love him and the mutual respect he has built provides for happier healthier clientele and a lot of respect for the profession.

Nice try. DO/... students don't have a heavier load. They work on one degree at a time and/or they take basic science courses with the doctoral students and don't have to re-take later on.

Where I went to medical school, there were some MS students wearing shirts that alluded to the fact that they were in the master's program. The shirts said, "Because one degree wasn't enough." Yeah...uh huh. Again, nice try. They should have read, "Because I have to take the long way to get in...some of them did and some of them didn't. Out of the 12-15 MS students I knew, only 2-3 were accepted into the DO/MS program. All the rest were MS with DO aspirations.

Anyhoo...I still say business management type courses should be done on one's own. If DC schools want to incorporate curricula that teaches how to manipulate (pun intended) people into "20 visit treatment plans" or round people up to sell them herbs, vitamins and other "essential" supplements, that's their problem.

Who cares what some chiropractor does. If I wanted to make money, I'd be in business or chiropractic.

 

[It'sElectric]

Also j1515, osteopathic medicine has been around for over 100 years, just not in all 50 states, but the factor of the matter that sickofwaiting was implying was that with time as being the "let's wait and see" reagent, DOs haven't really progressed any further in the public eye.

Maybe that's because only 40 years ago there were less than 15,000 DOs practicing in the entire country. The first 70 or so years of osteopathic medicine in the U.S. moved at a turtle-like speed compared to where it has been going for last 30 (especially the last 10). The sheer number of DOs that will be out there over the next 10 years will do far more for expanding the public's knowledge on what a DO is than what any sort of degree change could ever do. If anything, a degree change will only confound people further.

Furthermore, the whole, "let those DOs that want to change their degree to MD or MD, DO do it" has already been done, and it was disastrous. What everyone should be pushing for are single, universal licensing exams and dually accredited residencies all across the country. If we stay that sort of course, it's very likely this sort of debate (how can we educate laypeople on what a DO is) won't even exist in 10 years.

It'sElectric: Yes and? How is that a bad thing? The want to help people should drive medical students, not the need to be different.

I think a lot of people here just too arrogant.

I have yet to make a comment on a med student's drive to help people and the need to be different. I believe the people pushing for a degree change are motivated by vanity and nothing more.

 

[studentDO]

Nice try. DO/... students don't have a heavier load. They work on one degree at a time and/or they take basic science courses with the doctoral students and don't have to re-take later on.

I interviewed with AT Still in AZ, they offer a dual MPH/DO program. You start the MPH in your second year and run it concurrently with your final three years of school online. I realize this does add an additional load but I think if more students had a little business savvy injected into them then maybe we would have less arguments and more action. If you can talk the talk who needs a petition - get in their face and state your case.

I fear that my future is going to involve a lot of politics ... (my undergrad degree is in business mgmt.)

 

[J1515]

THIS IS NOT A PETITION TO ACTUALLY CHANGE THE DEGREE...its a petition to see if the AOA will actually respond.

lol...yes this IS a petition to change the degree. Look at the title of it genius. If you want me and the majority of students to sign a petition, start one saying that there should be a joint match and MDs should be allowed to apply for our residencies. Start one saying that IF the # of quality osteopathic residencies increased in number and geographic location that we would participate in the DO match rather than bypass it for the MD match.

I (and most older DO students/residents/practicing physicians) refuse to sign a petition for a superficial nonsensical fight about initials that the allopathic world is laughing at us about. Make a petition that will allow me to become a BETTER physician and improve the treatment of patients and then I will sign it.

 

[J1515]

I love the little disguise so many of you put on with the whole talk, "I just want to practice medicine, so that's why MD should be after my name...yadda, yadda, yadda." You just want the MD after your name to avoid having to explain things to future friends, patients, whomever. If you can't handle that, then you should have gone Allo or Carib.

👍

The new little disguise now is "this isn't about changing the initials, it's about getting the AOA to listen to us"

Meanwhile the title of the petition is specifically saying "for those who want a degree change".

 

[scpod]

I've really only got two things to say about this issue...

First, if you are a pre-med or student, then you have no rights and no say in this issue. You cannot go around changing someone else's degree when you have never even earned it in the first place. AFTER you have actually become a DO, then you can bitch about it as much as you want to. Until then, you signed up for DO school and that's what you'll end up wih-- a DO degree. If you want another degree you have the option to sign up at a school that offers another degree.

Second, the AOA cannot change the degree. Your school offers a degree that it has been accredited to offer and your state then gives you the license to operate as a doctor. You should be asking your school to offer a different degree if you want one. Then, you'll have to get your state to put that degree into legislation. Then, you'll have to get other states to recognise it if you want to work elsewhere. Then, you'll have to get other countries to recognise it if you want to work there. Then, you'll have to get the policies changed at all hospitals in the US if you want to admit patients.

But, that leads me to wonder why in the heck you would want to go through all that crap when it took over a hundred years for that to happen with the initials "DO"? Do you think that it would take less than 100 years to change all that again? If so, You've never delt with the state legislature I'm sure. Besides, why would you spend that much time, money and effort on changing some silly initials when sooooo much more needs to be done in the profession? For goodnes sakes, spend your time on someting that will move the profession forward, NOT something that will put it back 100 years to where it started all over again.

If you really HAVE to have an "M" in your initials, go some place that offers that.

 

[J1515]

Also j1515, osteopathic medicine has been around for over 100 years, just not in all 50 states, but the factor of the matter that sickofwaiting was implying was that with time as being the "let's wait and see" reagent, DOs haven't really progressed any further in the public eye. Again, it's not about how many patients you see. For example look at PAs. They do pretty well, but my whole family always says "just say no". Also I'd like to say that a lot of people here don't care about OMM. For them, it's only about practicing medicine without alternatively going to FMG schools so why don't you accept that?

Yes it has been around for 100 years. But how do you expect someone to recognize it if they weren't even thought of as "doctor" in all 50 states? I actually just learned the other day that it is legal for a naturopath to be called a primary care physician in 3 states, and they've been around forever as well. DO's have been considered physicians in all 50 states for about 30 years now. That is NOT a long time. The # of students have increased exponentially. The word WILL get out.

Just because your family says "no" to PAs means nothing. Again, PAs nor DOs have any shortage of patients. For the people who couldn't get into a US MD school and didn't want to become an FMG and used DO as a backup, that's too bad for them. They should be happy they are going to become a physician, period. For those of us who had an option and cared more about going where we were would get the best education, we shouldn't have to sit around and watch a bunch of MD rejects whine and cry that people aren't going to be impressed with their degree. We would rather fight to see the QUALITY of osteopathic education improve because that's why we went into medicine in the first place - to become the best physician we could be.

 

[REM12]

Please, please stop this nonsense. Be proud to be a DO or be proud to be an MD, just be proud to be a physician. Put your energy into the patients and get over yourselves. UGGGG.


What do you call 100 pre-meds at the bottom of the ocean...

A good start 😉

 

[cyclohexanol]

"We the undersigned, support the movement to change the degree of Doctor of Osteopathic Medicine (D.O.) and request the AOA to conduct a vote amongst the osteopathic community regarding this issue." It seems plain that the intention is to see where the members of the Osteopathic community stand on the issue, not to actually change the degree. But, I'm wrong alot.

I, for one, don't need to have MD behind my name. DO is fine. If a physician who is licensed to practice medicine in this country wants to have the letters MD behind their name, what's it to you? I think the degree change is unnecessary. I also think all the freaking out by the previously mentioned "camp A" people is unnecessary. The problem is a degree change would affect all DOs. Some people understandably don't want to have their DO degree changed for them against their will. Plus, I think all of the proposed degree changes are stupid. MD, DO implies inacurately that two doctorate degrees have been earned. OMD, can't stand it. To me it says "I'm sorta like an MD, but not quite, & I have self esteem issues." DOM is taken. MDO is not so bad, but I think some people would make the O really tiny - MDO, MD(o) or simply MD. (.= tiny O as someone already mentioned).

The AMA has no problem with physicians from the UK who have not been awarded an MD degree from anywhere, but rather the equivalent degree MBBS (Bachelor of Medicine and Surgery) using the letters MD behind their names. The health care system in the UK is very different from ours in the US and their medications, being roughly the same, have entirely different names. DOs in this country are educated the same way as MDs except we get a little OMT training (which MDs can pick up from seminars at Harvard). So John Doe, MBBS gets to be John Doe, MD. Such an individual does not possess the MD degree, but rather the right to put MD behind his/her name. I say, let those DOs who want to have the letters MD behind their name be afforded the same courtesy. The DOs who want to display their degree can keep the DO behind their name. Problem solved. Again, I Don't Care.

Couldn't have said it better. 👍

 

[endocardium]

I'm so tired of this BS. Why don't you guys try to lobby for something useful, instead of this degree-changing business? There are so many more significant issues facing our profession, like improving our GME, for example. Why focus on something so incredibly superficial and non-impactful (and potentially damaging)? What a waste of time. Whatever. I can't believe that I share a common profession with some of you. 🙄

Anyway, I agree with scpod. Pre-meds and students have no business with this anyway. Ask the practicing DO's...

Move on folks...there's nothing to see here.

 

[VALSALVA]

I'm so tired of this BS. Why don't you guys try to lobby for something useful, instead of this degree-changing business? There are so many more significant issues facing our profession, like improving our GME, for example. Why focus on something so incredibly superficial and non-impactful (and potentially damaging)? What a waste of time. Whatever. I can't believe that I share a common profession with some of you. 🙄

Anyway, I agree with scpod. Pre-meds and students have no business with this anyway. Ask the practicing DO's...

Move on folks...there's nothing to see here.

Uh...I thought we were talking about renaming the DO degree? So now you want to change the BS too??😛

 

[Old_Mil]

The truth is, the general public does not know what a DO is and that is a problem.

The problem is not that the general public does not know what a "DO" is. The problem is that a bunch of out of touch traditionalists are intent on shooting the degree in the head by saddling it with chiropractic baggage. It's high time for the AOA to embrace the practice of evidence based allopathic medicine as the appropriate stage for a DO to practice medicine and let whatever aspects of OMT survive join similar modalities in PM&R. If this happens, it won't matter what the initials of the degree are.

We can even leave them as "DO" as a tribute to old A.T. himself.

Just the other day, a PA saw the silly "Hi, I'm a medical student from..." on my white coat and said, "I didn't know XYZ was a chiropractic school."

So thank you, my OMT obsessed brethren. It is through your hard work that this "profession" will continue to navel gaze into the forseeable future. Do you want to change something? Don't send petitions to an AOA organization that's going to ignore your desires.

Don't join SOMA. Don't join the AOA. Don't join the ACOFP. Quit kissing the asses of those headed in a different direction than you'd like to.

 

[endocardium]

Uh...I thought we were talking about renaming the DO degree? So now you want to change the BS too??😛

Uh, yeah, right, now that you mention it, the degree should be PMBS, instead of simply BS, to signify pre-medical status. How else will the public know that students are pursuing medical school? 😉

 

[studentDO]

I (and most older DO students/residents/practicing physicians) refuse to sign a petition for a superficial nonsensical fight about initials that the allopathic world is laughing at us about. Make a petition that will allow me to become a BETTER physician and improve the treatment of patients and then I will sign it.

As a 40 year old first year student, I second that.

 

[NeuroDocDO]

There are mountain of other issues in healthcare to consider than wasting time talking about letters and titles. Changing the title is not going to achieve anything practically. DO's already have full practice rights and are found in all specialties, so then how will a degree change going to offer anything more than that. I am satisfied with my degree as it has allowed me to become a physician and obtain the residency of my choice, that is what is important and practical. Please, let us discuss issues that are much more important, rather than talk about this silliness. Instead of making a silly petition to the AOA about the degree change, we should all make a petition to the AOA about creating quality GME programs and open more DO schools that are university affiliated rather than opening up random free standing, poorly staffed and under-resourced schools. That is much more practical to the DO profession than a silly discussion about degree change. How is that going to help or improve patient care? There are many other professions that have more than one degree designation (e.g DMD/DDS, PsyD/PhD, DVM/VMD etc) but you don't see them waist time battling over who's got what letters? I hope you can all see the futility and impracticality of this discussion. 👎

 

[drusso]

It's just an academic degree people! Besides, I think that for most DO students the degree "grows on them." You've earned it. You'll like it...if being a "MD" was that important to you, then you probably would have gone to an MD school in the first place. Those who truly can't imagine themselves ever having a DO degree rarely go on to achieve one...

Besides I think that w should make the MD's change their degree...I'm tired of the way it looks. I think that they should change it to QL. They can still still call themselves "medical doctors" but the degree would be abbreviated to QL.

 

[bkpa2med]

The issue, I believe, is that most people don't recognize DO because they simply don't care to look. Internists are internists regardless of MD or DO. This problem is when people who market themselves as Naturalists and Alternative medicine folks are DOs. The general public will then continue to associate this stereotype.

In the end the problem lies with the AOA who distances itself from us. Shouldn't they stop and consider anything we talk about? Why do half of DO graduates enter allopathic programs? They need a wake up call. That's what this is all about. Just like amindwalker stated, we all have the right of our opinion and should be respected for it. There is no argument amongst any of us. We are all becoming/are DOs.

 

[endocardium]

In the end the problem lies with the AOA who distances itself from us. Shouldn't they stop and consider anything we talk about? Why do half of DO graduates enter allopathic programs? They need a wake up call. That's what this is all about. Just like amindwalker stated, we all have the right of our opinion and should be respected for it. There is no argument amongst any of us. We are all becoming/are DOs.

Yeah, but regardless of any arguments you can come up with for a degree change, there are clearly much better and important battles to be fought. If you want to wake up the AOA, why would you pick degree-change as your primary platform? Rediculous. Many osteopathic physicians choose allopathic residency programs for several reasons, but the ones that I hear most often are location and perceived quality of the GME. Therefore, would it not make sense to lobby hard for better osteopathic GME's, rather than for a degree change?

No, I'm afraid we would rather favor the superficial stuff and abandon our GME's and other more critical issues impacting our profession. It's an alarming trend. Folks, don't kid yourselves. This whole degree-changing thing isn't about improving our profession, it's about students wishing that they were MD's rather than DO's. Well, too bad. You made the choice to attend an osteopathic medical school. Learn to appreciate and take responsibility for the choices you made. Don't drag us all down with you on your fruitless path. If you want our profession to improve, then do it from the ground up. Focus on the fundamental issues, not on some silly pre-med ego trip that you never got over.

 

[amindwalker]

I submit to you that bkpa2med was not arguing for a degree change. Look up Alexia without agraphia. Some people can type, but can't read.

 

[bkpa2med]

I submit to you that bkpa2med was not arguing for a degree change. Look up Alexia without agraphia. Some people can type, but can't read.

Exactly dude

The resulting deficit will be "Alexia without agraphia" - i.e, the patient can write but cannot read (even what they have just written). This is because the left visual cortex has been damaged, leaving only the right visual cortex (occipital lobe) able to process visual information, but it is unable to send this information to the language areas (Broca's area, Wernicke's area, etc) in the left brain because of the damage to the corpus callosum.

 

[endocardium]

I submit to you that bkpa2med was not arguing for a degree change. Look up Alexia without agraphia. Some people can type, but can't read.

Really? Oooh. Let's take a look at what our OP wrote:

Everyone has seen the article about this issue in the DO Magazine. Someone has begun a petition for it with hopes of getting 1,000 signatures and sending it to the AOA. Your name can be anonymous on the website and the person who started this just asks that you use your respective school email address in order to validate to the AOA it is you.

Here is the link for anyone is in interested in a change for MD,DO or MDO.

http://www.thepetitionsite.com/1/DO-Degree-Change

Fascinating. Please do explain why the OP would post a link to a petition entitled, "Advocates for D.O. Degree Change," with the following petition, if not to advocate it (emphasis mine):

We the undersigned, support the movement to change the degree of Doctor of Osteopathic Medicine (D.O.) and request the AOA to conduct a vote amongst the osteopathic community regarding this issue.

Right. Perhaps the OP did not directly argue in favor of a change, but he certainly implied his support by inviting others to review and sign the petition, which directly states that the undersigned "support the movement to change the degree of Doctor of Osteopathic Medicine (D.O.)." I don't know what universe you are living in, but where I am from, this behavior is considered enlisting support for a particular cause. This cause would be advocating to change the D.O. degree, as it is plainly stated in the petition. Therefore, unless I am in some kind of skewed alternate universe, neither I nor my colleagues are off-base with our interpretation and comments.

Stop pretending you are waking up the AOA or doing our profession some big favor. You simply want to change our degree because you are walking around with an MD complex. Feeling inferior is a choice and it is more deeply rooted than a designation. Get therapy so that you can finally put that to rest. Be honest with yourself and your intentions. Believe me, you'll sleep better at night having fully faced and accepted your choices...your choice to attend an osteopathic medical school and to become a DO.

 

[J1515]

Stop pretending you are waking up the AOA or doing our profession some big favor. You simply want to change our degree because you are walking around with an MD complex.

👍

They aren't fooling anyone. It's not a coincidence that it's mostly 1st year DO students and a handful of pre-meds who couldn't get into MD schools that are so vocal about this change in degree name. The rest of us with a few years of experience under our belt know that the stupid initials following our name will not help us save more lives or provide better treatment to patients. So many problems with osteopathic education and these kids are worried about the letters after their name 🙄

This thread currently has 1,513 views, and only 218 people signed the petition. So there is your answer folks. The majority has spoken. Now go back to your studying and worry about becoming the best possible doctor you can be instead of this superficial nonsense.

 

[endocardium]

You know what? Fine, let the supporters of a designation change have their way. Get the issue on the ballot. Let's vote on it and finally put this crap to rest, so we can talk about some real issues impacting osteopathic medicine. If by chance the majority of AOA members think we need to change our designation, then I guess I'll just have to accept it, despite my thoughts on the issue. However, I'm predicting that their pet project is going to get shot down by the vote; it just isn't going to happen, so I'm not that concerned.

I don't give a **** about what designation goes after my name, and I'm also not some kind of nutty, diehard osteopathy-supporter. I see the utility of OMM as an adjuvant treatment and use it when it is indicated, but I don't think all of it is useful or even remotely legitimate (i.e., cranial, etc.). There were definitely times where I cringed reading what passes as scientific explanations for OMT. I am a supporter of EBM, the current standard of care, and being the best damn doctor I can be. Nevertheless, I don't see the utility in changing our designation. The proposal seems like it would only create more problems, not solve them. Two main issues with recognition is that we are a minority in the healthcare scene and, even though we practice to the same standard of care, we have a separate identity from the mainstream MD's. Changing our degree from DO to MDO isn't going to resolve the problems associated with being separate from the mainstream and from being the minority. Indeed, if a designation change were to be used to help address the points above, nothing short of changing our degree to MD would be beneficial, in my opinion. But that's never going to happen, so advocating a change in degree is fruitless. That's why I don't support a change in degree designation, not because I'm some sort of blind traditionalist.

 

[endocardium]

They aren't fooling anyone. It's not a coincidence that it's mostly 1st year DO students and a handful of pre-meds who couldn't get into MD schools that are so vocal about this change in degree name. The rest of us with a few years of experience under our belt know that the stupid initials following our name will not help us save more lives or provide better treatment to patients. So many problems with osteopathic education and these kids are worried about the letters after their name 🙄

This thread currently has 1,513 views, and only 218 people signed the petition. So there is your answer folks. The majority has spoken. Now go back to your studying and worry about becoming the best possible doctor you can be instead of this superficial nonsense.

Couldn't have said it better.

 

[homeboy]

Changing our title this late in the game does nothing to address the underlying problems with the profession.

Something often neglected is the fact that outside the geographically DO-heavy areas, there is a rather weak representation of the osteopathic profession. There are around 53,000 osteopathic physicians (representing less than ~6% of practicing physicians), ~75% of who practice in just 12 states (the top ones being Michigan, Pennsylvania, Ohio, Florida, New Jersey and Texas).

Despite the exponential growth in DO numbers over the past 20 years, it’s a lofty goal to imagine that 6% of physicians are going to have an appreciable impact on modern healthcare by “treating the patient, not the disease”, especially considering such a paltry number of them supposedly adhere to a notion of “osteopathic principles and practice” (most are just “physicians” and don’t purport to be anything more or less).

What’s even more impractical is the notion that consistently opening up more DO schools is going to ‘spread the word’, especially with medicine becoming increasingly specialized and the “old school DO” becoming an artifact of the early 20th Century. Even if DOs increased in number to comprise 10% of practicing physicians, the majority would still be restricted to a handful of states, and graduate osteopathic education would not grow accordingly, making us increasingly reliant on ACGME training.

A few DOs are emphatically old school, a few are emphatically progressive, but most DOs simply dismiss the issue because they’re content with the way things are: they got their degree and ran, and can practice medicine and not be bothered.

And this lack of commitment to the osteopathic profession is the primary issue because it fosters complacency as DOs completely break from the AOA and receive ACGME training, affiliation and accreditation. IE: Osteopathic education is merely a gateway to becoming a physician, with no stipulations that require a long-term committed association with the AOA. I’m not suggesting we revert back to the pre-1960s osteopathic medicine; I’m suggesting we just take the next logical step and “merge” with our MD colleagues (I know it will never happen, but it should) and concede this silly belief that DOs are anything more than your average physician. Simply adding an “M” to our title is not the answer.

 

[Iquitos]

sleep:😴

 

[amindwalker]

I completely agree that it would be far better to focus on stuff that really matters with regard to improving the current state of affairs rather than superficial things such as changing the degree. It has been mentioned on this thread that improving GME would be far more worthy of our attention. Again, I agree. But perhaps the improvement should be made a little closer to home.

I think we would all agree that paying attention to detail is crucial in our chosen profession because not doing so kills people. In this universe, doctors do kill more people than bullets and it's usually because something slipped passed them. What do ya say we start getting in the habit of paying attention to detail today.

I have been accused of trying to change the degree. I have plainly written that I do not think this is necessary. I have been told that I need therapy because I have an MD complex and that I feel inferior because I haven't yet fully faced and accepted my choices. Again, I have plainly stated that I am absolutely cool with becoming a DO. I am GLAD that I am at a DO school, and it's not because I couldn't get in to a US MD program because I know I could have done that. I wanted to learn OMT!!!

It's real easy to just scan through lengthy bits of text and latch on to something stated in the middle and take it out of context. Some of you are doing it right now. I am NOT an advocate of degree change and if you read the full text of my postings, you should be able to see that. Although I'm sure one could quote a fragment from something I've written that might on the surface indicate otherwise. For example:

nothing short of changing our degree to MD would be beneficial, in my opinion.

As a 40 year old first year student, I second that.

You see, out of context and at a glance, the above quoted individuals appear to be stating something that anyone who has paid attention to detail would be able to discern as not being what they meant.

There is nothing in this world more DEADLY than a physician who has gotten into the habit of not paying attention to detail. I hope we (myself included) can all learn that lesson before it's too late.

 

[endocardium]

Actually, it wasn't my intention to direct my comments to you, amindwalker. Of course, I read your posts and noted that you stated that you were not a proponent of a degree change, etc. I just didn't understand your defense of the OP, who seems to be clearly gathering support for his cause.

Anyway, it doesn't matter to me. I'm over all this stuff. I was angry for a bit, but now I remembered that you just can't change people, without their willingness. Whatever. If certain folks are intent on wasting time chasing their tails because of the trauma of not gaining acceptance to and attending an allopathic medical school, well, then so be it. I wish you guys well. I doubt changing our degree is going to give you the respute you are looking for. That can only come from within.

 

[Buckeye4life]

I think the real reason why myself and amindwalker jumped on this thread, at least me in particular, was that we go to school with bkpa2med and are friends. He's one of the most chill, laid-back, non-antagonizing people you'll ever meet. It just upsets me when people see one random post they disagree with, and start making judgements and personal attacks on someone they've never met and would probably like. I agree with a lot of what's been said that there are much more pressing issues surrounding this profession, and a degree change probably shouldn't be one of them. However, I think we all can start improving things at least by being courteous and professional to our future colleagues.

And to It'sElectric, I apologize for being rude. It was initially a knee-jerk response to coming to my boy's back.

 

[MaximusD]

That's not the reason for this. Don't make judgements before you even begin your road. The idea behind this petition is to get the AOA to respond to their own article of bringing up the idea of a Degree Change.

To be honest, this has nothing to with us who are becoming DO's. We all know we are fully qualified and equal in every respective way. This is for the general public awareness. Many may argue their point but I know that at least 80% of each osteopathic class most likely agrees with this.

Bull**** if you mean that 80 percent would like a degree change. Leave my degree alone. DO or MD -- no in between crap.

 

[amindwalker]

I think the real reason why myself and amindwalker jumped on this thread, at least me in particular, was that we go to school with bkpa2med and are friends. He's one of the most chill, laid-back, non-antagonizing people you'll ever meet. It just upsets me when people see one random post they disagree with, and start making judgements and personal attacks on someone they've never met and would probably like. I agree with a lot of what's been said that there are much more pressing issues surrounding this profession, and a degree change probably shouldn't be one of them. However, I think we all can start improving things at least by being courteous and professional to our future colleagues.

Here here.

 

[bkpa2med]

buckeye and amindwalker -- cheers to you guys!
True friends who don't have alexia without agraphia lol

The end.

 

[DannMann99]

Wow. I love the absolute bickering. I just read through this post and must have read the same 2 arguements over and over again.

I'm going to be entering PCOM in the fall, and I could care less about a degree name change. I could have got into allo if i wanted to, but I just didn't really kill myself over it.

DO, MD, MDO, whatever. Everyone says focus your energy in other places, but it seems like those people are just as guilty, and are focusing their energy instead at shooting down these proposals.

I say if someone wants to get the degree changed, let them. If there is enough support amongst the community then lets go with majority rule... If there isnt, well let people push these topics to no avail. Its their perrogative.

I just felt like reading 2 pages of aggravating posts I needed to throw my 2cents. 🙂

-Dan.

 

[Faraaz23]

Whats funny is how people are fighting for this issue and do not even know what organizations or institutions would be responsible for making this change. They also have no clue that if you could actually get all DO schools on board to grant a different degree, that you'd have to get every individual state to accept this new degree for for licensure. Every state and federal law, whether it be legislative or administrative, would have to be amended to include the new degree as well. On top of that, we are having a hard enough time getting other countries to allow US-trained DO's to practice. It is very difficult to drive across the point to some of these officials that US MD= US DO. Now try throwing a different degree at them and see if this makes things any easier.

 

[Red Beard]

This is so absolutely ridiculous. The problems you hope to solve by changing the degree to anything other than "MD" will only be worsened--the same people who don't know what a DO is will not know what an MDO is either. Secondly, the AOA has nothing to do with the degree that each school awards or that each state licenses.

That leaves us the option of convincing all osteopathic schools to begin granting the MD degree, which means they would all have to obtain LCME accredidation. The likelihood of that happening approaches zero.

So quit wasting your energy.

 

[MaximusD]

Wow. I love the absolute bickering. I just read through this post and must have read the same 2 arguements over and over again.

I'm going to be entering PCOM in the fall, and I could care less about a degree name change. I could have got into allo if i wanted to, but I just didn't really kill myself over it.

DO, MD, MDO, whatever. Everyone says focus your energy in other places, but it seems like those people are just as guilty, and are focusing their energy instead at shooting down these proposals.

I say if someone wants to get the degree changed, let them. If there is enough support amongst the community then lets go with majority rule... If there isnt, well let people push these topics to no avail. Its their perrogative.

I just felt like reading 2 pages of aggravating posts I needed to throw my 2cents. 🙂

-Dan.

I'm gonna buy you a shot of the absolute worst crap at the bar during orientation week for your lack of support of your future degree.

I owe you a shot of some quality Vladi or Bankers Club.

 

[DannMann99]

Maxipad

sorry bro, some of us have bigger things to worry about then what 2 letters come after my name...

Did I knock medicine? Did I knock osteopathy? Did I knock my future degree? No. Simply said I could care less about alphabet soup.

So you have some kind of letters fetish dude? Are you becoming a D.O. to treat people or to add 2 initials to your name?

-Dan

 

[spicedmanna]

Maxipad

sorry bro, some of us have bigger things to worry about then what 2 letters come after my name...

Did I knock medicine? Did I knock osteopathy? Did I knock my future degree? No. Simply said I could care less about alphabet soup.

So you have some kind of letters fetish dude? Are you becoming a D.O. to treat people or to add 2 initials to your name?

-Dan

I agree with you in principle, but I think it's actually possible to make things worse by screwing with the designation. That's why I have been a proponent of leaving it as it is, or changing it to MD (improbable), if the majority is intent on changing it. Changing it to something silly like MDO stands to worsen recognition, not help it, in my humble opinion.

Anyway, I think the majority of practicing DO's would not likely support a change of designation. The energy is best spent on more worthy and critical issues, such as OGME.

 

[MaximusD]

Maxipad

sorry bro, some of us have bigger things to worry about then what 2 letters come after my name...

Did I knock medicine? Did I knock osteopathy? Did I knock my future degree? No. Simply said I could care less about alphabet soup.

So you have some kind of letters fetish dude? Are you becoming a D.O. to treat people or to add 2 initials to your name?

-Dan

No I just think as someone who is just beginning their medical program at a DO school who just made the decision, you should have some respect. You have no idea the amount of blood and tears you're about to pour into this degree. A year from now you'll at least CARE what your professional credentials are that you will carry with you for the duration of your professional life.

Is it as important as whether I am a competent physician or not? Hell no.

Is it important in its own way? Absolutely.

Perhaps you should consider respect for those who have come before you who have blazed the way so that you can become a physician. You are entering THEIR profession... not the other way around.

 

[REM12]

Very well said Maximus. Exactly.

 

[homeboy]

I don't want to enter the maxipad-mann debate, but I'm a little sick of people pulling the "reverence" card. We're not judges bound to stare decisis.

I challenge the notion that I should hold my tongue and genuflect in reverence to the school & profession that gave me this opportunity, as if I wouldn't have succeeded in my medical pursuit if it wasn't for osteopathic medicine.

Far too many people harbor the notion that going DO forever prohibits one from speaking out on matters involving our education, testing standards and policies, and that the debt we owe the osteopathic profession far exceeds any audacious desire to change those matters.

Respect is one thing, and I think everyone going DO respects the fact they will be physicians. But saying we are entering "THEIR" (all the DOs that came before us, et al ) profession, and consequently should toe the line, is ridiculous and downright cultish.

I am entering THE profession of "medicine," not one that a particular group of physicians claim ownership to.

 

[BruceBanner]

This will never happen.

If you are not ok with having DO after you name then dont become a DO.

 

[Iquitos]

This will never happen.

If you are not ok with having DO after you name then dont become a DO.

Actually it might. I thought it wouldn't happen either, but apparently the AMA and the AOA have a joint proposition on this issue. From what I understand, the proposition is to allow MD's to enter osteopathic residencies and possibly change the DO credentials to M.D.,D.O. The AOA is actually coming to the students to ask their opinion about the issue. I attended a meeting with our class presidency who will report our ideas to the AOA at a national meeting.

 

[BruceBanner]

Actually it might. I thought it wouldn't happen either, but apparently the AMA and the AOA have a joint proposition on this issue. From what I understand, the proposition is to allow MD's to enter osteopathic residencies and possibly change the DO credentials to M.D.,D.O. The AOA is actually coming to the students to ask their opinion about the issue. I attended a meeting with our class presidency who will report our ideas to the AOA at a national meeting.

Interesting. So does that mean the title-change will be retro-active for existing DO's...or just future grads?

In any case i would be very surprised if it happened. But if it did i think it could lend alot to mending the perception-rift between the two degrees.