DO - Degree Change ...

[bth7]

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Big picture: I do not see problem with DO's who want to use MD in advertising if they take the USMLE & do an allopathic residency (especially if they were pawned off on MD preceptors who taught them medicine for free while these students paid an obscene amount of tuition). Regardless of what the AOA says, there is no difference between the MD and DO degrees (the federal government agrees). I think the option should be made available, especially since it is made to others who have received an equivalent medical education, but not an MD. Those DO's who want to pursue this avenue will, and those who do not won't.

Agreed.

 

[scpod]

....I only applied to DO schools because I wanted a DO degree, the premise being that I would be a competent practioner of OMT. This is what the AOA, COCA promised me in exchange for my money. I did not receive this. Instead, I was introduced to a few hrs/wk of OMT lab, and NO OMT during clinicals....

Oh no they didn't. No more than they promised you that you would be competent in Physiology, Pathology, Pharmacology or any other subject you took. In order to excel in ANY subject you have to spend not only the time during scheduled classes, but many, many more hours on your own. Were you spending as much (or more) time per week on OMM on your own as you were on other subjects? If not, then your answer is just a cop out. It's your own fault if you aren't good at it by now.

The only valid part of your argument is with the clinical aspect. Granted, you may not have received any OMM instruction while in clinicals, but you can do that as an elective if you so desire. If, as you said, you wanted to get good at it, then you could have spent a few rotations doing it. Some schools require an OMM rotation or two. Mine doesn't. Apparently, yours didn't either.

Still, I have classmates that love OMM and have taught quite a few things to their MD preceptors about it along the way. Instead of bitching about how no one was giving them the chance to practice or perform OMM, they went out and asked if they could use it on patients-- often with great results.

No, I don't think that the AOA is doing all they can to help educate students. Yet, your education is what you make of it. If it is lacking, then you have to step up to the plate and do something about it.

 

[J1515]

Those DO's who want to pursue this avenue will, and those who do not won't.

Exactly. If you don't want the DO degree, then don't go to a DO school. Problem solved.

 

[aminoacid]

I've already stated this pretty clearly and repeatedly, so I'm not sure this point is getting through, but the reason you absolutely may NOT use the MD degree is because:

In the U.S., we have two ways to become a licensed physician: MD & DO. If you get into a school that grants one of these two degrees and complete the curriculum, you are granted the degree upon graduation and THROUGH THAT DEGREE, you are eligible to take the USMLE and become a fully licensed physician. Your degree and your medical license are two different things. Your degree denotes your schooling, your license confers practice rights. As a DO, you have the opportunity (just as an MD does) to become a fully licensed physician in the US. It is 100% unnecessary for you to claim the degree "MD" behind your name, because you DID NOT EARN IT. You earned a DO. If it makes you feel any better, I don't like that foreign doctors use "MD" either, based on the same reasoning. Maybe you'd prefer that they use "DO"? I'd be okay with that. But if they use their foreign degree, you don't see the MBBS's whining about not being able to call themselves MBChB's. Why? Because they didn't earn it, and they're the same thing. But the reason their degree is converted into an American MD is because their degree is equivalent to an allopathic medical degree (MD), not an osteopathic medical degree (DO). Find me a foreign degree that's the equivalent of a DO and I'll help you lobby to require that foreign doctors use "DO" when they come here to practice. Foreign physicians are trained in the "allopathic model", which the DO community has worked hard to establish as distinct from their training. If you want to acknowledge the full equivalency of the DO degree to the MD degree training, then I'm all for it. Eliminate the DO degree altogether and we'll all be happy. But you can't just pick and choose..."hm, I'm feeling like a DO today" when and where to use your real degree.

And opening up the use of "MD" to DO's is not only insulting (I would never ask to be able to use "DO" alongside my name, I think it's disrespectful to students who went to DO school and earned DO degrees), but it would set a dangerous precedent. Once you say, "ok, anyone with a medical license who passes the USMLE can use 'MD'", who else do you think is going to elbow their way in there? Go over to the Podiatry forums and look at how much they talk about how their training & education are basically the same as a medical student's and how they're all "doctors" and "medical students" and "physicians". Read up on some of the DNP propaganda. They claim they're the same as a doctor. They're trying to get the NBME to write them medical licensing-like exams. Who else is going to elbow their way in? At DMU, I believe there's a pretty closely integrated DO & DPM program. How would you feel if all of a sudden they started demanding that they be able to use your degree after their name because THEY FEEL theirs and yours were close enough? After they had specifically chosen podiatry school, knowing full well they'd be required by law to use the DPM degree?

To summarize, the point is:
1) You still haven't answered WHY you want to use the MD degree (but not convert it), when yours allows you to do everything an MD does anyway
2) The only reason (based on 1) therefore to do so would be cosmetic. It's no different than the sketchy caribbean "convert your DO to an MD degree!" scams you see advertised
3) You can't say "we're separate and distinct and special and proud to be DO's" and at the same time say, "...but we should be able to use MD when it suits us"

I agree with you that the foreign doctor being allowed to use MD while a domestically trained DO cannot is in a way inconsistent. I think it's irresponsible and inappropriately ambitious for people to use that inconsistency as a means to satisfy ulterior motives that will have such widespread repercussions, especially when it's so blatantly unnecessary.

I do not think this is a question of converting the degree, but whether or not DO's can use the "MD" designation in advertising. When the need to present their degree, it will still say "Doctor of Osteopathic Medicine."

I could care less about the degree designation (reread my posts). I never stated that I personally wanted to use the MD designation (reread my posts). For those that do, I see no problem with it (reread my posts). For some, it may be cosmetic and make advertising easier for them, depending of their region of the country. For others, it would be a way to "stick it" to the AOA (the AOA "eats its own, especially its young," but this conversation will be reserved for a different post). For foreign grads of DO schools, or DO grads who desire to work abroad, it may be easier for them if they have a license that allows them to use "MD." My issue is with the AOA, COCA propaganda that leads to conversations like this thread (i.e., "separate and distinct"). We're not and they need to stop saying that we are.

I already stated why I chose to go to DO school (reread my post). From your post, I gather that you did not attend a DO school, so you're not privy to the nonsense of the AOA, and if this is the case (no offense intended), you are necessarily in the position to empathize with the issues concerning the AOA, COCA. (As far as DPM's, I've rotated with their residents, and their 1st year is very similar to a 1st yr preliminary intern).

I think the designations should be interchangable since both allow the same end result, if that is what a practitioner chooses. (For an MD, that wants to use DO, I think the COMLEX and a certain amount of hours in OMT should be successfully completed). For all intents and purposes, the education is the same for the MD and the DO. I do not think anyone wants to deny their degree, but use it for advertising purposes if they choose to please so there is something that reflects medicine in their initials. (By the way, I know the difference between a license and a degree.)

For the record, I think that the AOA & the AMA should do what is necessary for them to unite because the leaders of the midlevel provider professions are a more ominous threat with their pursuit of increasing scopes of practice.

 

[aminoacid]

Oh no they didn't. No more than they promised you that you would be competent in Physiology, Pathology, Pharmacology or any other subject you took. In order to excel in ANY subject you have to spend not only the time during scheduled classes, but many, many more hours on your own. Were you spending as much (or more) time per week on OMM on your own as you were on other subjects? If not, then your answer is just a cop out. It's your own fault if you aren't good at it by now.

The only valid part of your argument is with the clinical aspect. Granted, you may not have received any OMM instruction while in clinicals, but you can do that as an elective if you so desire. If, as you said, you wanted to get good at it, then you could have spent a few rotations doing it. Some schools require an OMM rotation or two. Mine doesn't. Apparently, yours didn't either.

Still, I have classmates that love OMM and have taught quite a few things to their MD preceptors about it along the way. Instead of bitching about how no one was giving them the chance to practice or perform OMM, they went out and asked if they could use it on patients-- often with great results.

No, I don't think that the AOA is doing all they can to help educate students. Yet, your education is what you make of it. If it is lacking, then you have to step up to the plate and do something about it.

I sent you a PM.

 

[farnsworth]

I do not think this is a question of converting the degree, but whether or not DO's can use the "MD" designation in advertising. When the need to present their degree, it will still say "Doctor of Osteopathic Medicine."

I could care less about the degree designation (reread my posts). I never stated that I personally wanted to use the MD designation (reread my posts). For those that do, I see no problem with it (reread my posts). For some, it may be cosmetic and make advertising easier for them, depending of their region of the country. For others, it would be a way to "stick it" to the AOA (the AOA "eats its own, especially its young," but this conversation will be reserved for a different post). For foreign grads of DO schools, or DO grads who desire to work abroad, it may be easier for them if they have a license that allows them to use "MD." My issue is with the AOA, COCA propaganda that leads to conversations like this thread (i.e., "separate and distinct"). We're not and they need to stop saying that we are.

I already stated why I chose to go to DO school (reread my post). From your post, I gather that you did not attend a DO school, so you're not privy to the nonsense of the AOA, and if this is the case (no offense intended), you are necessarily in the position to empathize with the issues concerning the AOA, COCA. (As far as DPM's, I've rotated with their residents, and their 1st year is very similar to a 1st yr preliminary intern).

I think the designations should be interchangable since both allow the same end result, if that is what a practitioner chooses. (For an MD, that wants to use DO, I think the COMLEX and a certain amount of hours in OMT should be successfully completed). For all intents and purposes, the education is the same for the MD and the DO. I do not think anyone wants to deny their degree, but use it for advertising purposes if they choose to please so there is something that reflects medicine in their initials. (By the way, I know the difference between a license and a degree.)

For the record, I think that the AOA & the AMA should do what is necessary for them to unite because the leaders of the midlevel provider professions are a more ominous threat with their pursuit of increasing scopes of practice.

I agree with most of what you said in this post. I'm not interested enough to go reread your posts though, but I will say my post wasn't directed at you personally, rather the idea that they're interchangeable. If someone thinks it's advantageous to use the degree "MD" in advertising, then they should have earned the right to use it and the degrees are obviously not interchangeable.

But I'll end on an agreeable note that I agree wholeheartedly we need to better unify to protect the profession we love and know to be worth protecting from midlevel encroachment.

 

[J1515]

If someone thinks it's advantageous to use the degree "MD" in advertising, then they should have earned the right to use it and the degrees are obviously not interchangeable.

If someone wants an MD degree, why wouldn't they go to an MD school?

 

[MichiganDO]

Just a thought…Both professions (M.D. and D.O.) should push for D.O.s to be licensed as MDs, or something of this sort (MDO). Sounds crazy, I know………..

For M.D.s: the existence of a separate but equal medical degree (D.O.) serves as the model by which DC, DNP, ND, OD, DPM, DPT, PA, NP, __ base their argument upon which to expand their scope of practice.

For D.O.s: the advancement of midline providers blurs the line between our practice rights and the DC, DNP, ND, OD, DPM, DPT, ect…that all want a piece of the pie.

Lastly, the organizations that run these two professions (the AMA and AOA) continue to expand both MD and DO schools at an alarming rate, trying to out compete the other through expansion.

Essentially what I am saying is that the competition between these two schools of medicine and the exsistence of two seperate but equal fully licensed physicians, serves only to disadvantage BOTH M.D.s and D.O.s in the 21st century job market.

Just a thought though. Everyone seems to be quite in love with their degrees, or how smart/different/holistic/_____ they are to even consider that micro-merging these two identical professions with a degree change might benefit both MDs and DOs in the next century.

 

[Noeljan]

Just a thought…Both professions (M.D. and D.O.) should push for D.O.s to be licensed as MDs, or something of this sort (MDO). Sounds crazy, I know………..

For M.D.s: the existence of a separate but equal medical degree (D.O.) serves as the model by which DC, DNP, ND, OD, DPM, DPT, PA, NP, __ base their argument upon which to expand their scope of practice.

For D.O.s: the advancement of midline providers blurs the line between our practice rights and the DC, DNP, ND, OD, DPM, DPT, ect…that all want a piece of the pie.

Lastly, the organizations that run these two professions (the AMA and AOA) continue to expand both MD and DO schools at an alarming rate, trying to out compete the other through expansion.

Essentially what I am saying is that the competition between these two schools of medicine and the exsistence of two seperate but equal fully licensed physicians, serves only to disadvantage BOTH M.D.s and D.O.s in the 21st century job market.

Just a thought though. Everyone seems to be quite in love with their degrees, or how smart/different/holistic/_____ they are to even consider that micro-merging these two identical professions with a degree change might benefit both MDs and DOs in the next century.

First point: I wont ever push for someone to have my degree in which they did not earn. Neither should you. I also would never insult someone (ex: a DO) by pushing for their degree when I did not earn it

Second: MD's and DO's are separate but equal, both go to medical school. The others are not, I don't care what they base their arguments on. I doubt "joining" the two would do anything to "stop" them

Third: I don't believe that allopathic medical schools are expanding at an "alarming rate", actually I have heard it is the opposite. I am not too up to date on osteopathic expansion so you would know better than myself

Fourth: I really don't see this huge fight/competition between the two that needs resolving that you speak of. Maybe I am just oblivious but no one I know has said anything bad like ('we need to beat those DO students, etc) in my presence

 

[MichiganDO]

I couldn't agree more with you on your thoughts. I respect the sentiment you hold for your degree. As I have stated in prior posts, I am not a proponent of changing my degree.

However, the title M.D. is used everyday in the U.S. by those that never earned the degree. Allopathic medicine has granted M.D. degrees to a majority of non-MD holding FMGs that have entered this country over the past 50 years - that compose a large part of the MD population today. Again, why should a D.O.not have the same privilege should he/she complete the same steps? B/c their degree is granted in the U.S.? USMLE pass rate for osteopathic students is somewhere around 12% percentage points higher than that of certified FMGs. Is the curriculum at the University of Bangladesh honestly more "allopathic"? I think not.

We are ignorant to ignore the idea that this separate but equal designation between our two schools (MD and DO) serves as guideline for mid line providers to expand their scope of practice; to become a third - separate but equal degree.

What I'm suggesting is that our infatuation with our own separate yet equal degrees will impact the job market for us both tomorrow, unless we consider a change in the system today. We need to get over ourselves and our degrees, merge them somehow, and work together - before we are competing with Dr. _____ of _______ for a job.

 

[Pansit]

I couldn't agree more with you on your thoughts. I respect the sentiment you hold for your degree. As I have stated in prior posts, I am not a proponent of changing my degree.

However, the title M.D. is used everyday in the U.S. by those that never earned the degree. Allopathic medicine has granted M.D. degrees to a majority of non-MD holding FMGs that have entered this country over the past 50 years - that compose a large part of the MD population today. Again, why should a D.O.not have the same privilege should he/she complete the same steps? B/c their degree is granted in the U.S.? USMLE pass rate for osteopathic students is somewhere around 12% percentage points higher than that of certified FMGs. Is the curriculum at the University of Bangladesh honestly more "allopathic"? I think not.

We are ignorant to ignore the idea that this separate but equal designation between our two schools (MD and DO) serves as guideline for mid line providers to expand their scope of practice; to become a third - separate but equal degree.

What I'm suggesting is that our infatuation with our own separate yet equal degrees will impact the job market for us both tomorrow, unless we consider a change in the system today. We need to get over ourselves and our degrees, merge them somehow, and work together - before we are competing with Dr. _____ of _______ for a job.

true...lol

 

[bth7]

What I'm suggesting is that our infatuation with our own separate yet equal degrees will impact the job market for us both tomorrow, unless we consider a change in the system today. We need to get over ourselves and our degrees, merge them somehow, and work together - before we are competing with Dr. _____ of _______ for a job.

👍

 

[Anton Chigurh]

We are ignorant to ignore the idea that this separate but equal designation between our two schools (MD and DO) serves as guideline for mid line providers to expand their scope of practice; to become a third - separate but equal degree.

I never thought about it this way. Very good point. Nurses calling themselves doctors under the guise of an online clinical doctorate is, and should be disturbing to future physicians considering primary care specialties.

 

[Concubine]

Today this article was in our local newspaper.

http://deseretnews.com/article/1,5143,700232415,00.html

I'm sure similar programs are opening up everywhere. Say a nurse does get a doctorate, what is the limit of their practice? What are the AOA and AMA doing about this? What can we do about it?

 

[Anton Chigurh]

Today this article was in our local newspaper.

http://deseretnews.com/article/1,5143,700232415,00.html

I'm sure similar programs are opening up everywhere. Say a nurse does get a doctorate, what is the limit of their practice? What are the AOA and AMA doing about this? What can we do about it?

I can totally see these politically seasoned nurses spinning the whole "separate but equal" concept to their advantage. DNPs will be marketed as advanced mid level providers who are the clinical equivalent of DOs, who are just like MDs...or something similar to this.

 

[Concubine]

I can totally see these politically seasoned nurses spinning the whole "separate but equal" concept to their advantage. DNPs will be marketed as advanced mid level providers who are the clinical equivalent of DOs, who are just like MDs...or something similar to this.

I have no problem with doctor-nurses that know and understand their scope of practice and don't simply get the doctorate for marketability purposes. From what I've gathered, they can be a great asset to any healthcare team. However, I can't help but feel our niche in healthcare is threatened by the explosion in NP and PA schools and that the educational standards at some of these institutions are not up to par. I'm also worried that these graduates will market themselves as physicians without having the rigorous science/research background required to make well informed (and sometimes creative) decisions. However, what can be done? where there is a supply there's a demand. I guess we will see the outcome.

 

[Medinsane]

Today this article was in our local newspaper.

http://deseretnews.com/article/1,5143,700232415,00.html

I'm sure similar programs are opening up everywhere. Say a nurse does get a doctorate, what is the limit of their practice? What are the AOA and AMA doing about this? What can we do about it?

I think we're finally feeling the brunt of the specialty surge in America. It kind of feels like we've bitten ourselves in the butt. Like any new merging field, I'm worried for the quality and standard of education these facilities will have. And how much power the AMA/AOA will have to make sure these standards are met.

 

[bth7]

From the article by by ANTHONY J. SILVAGNI, DO, PHARMD

I have served as the dean of two osteopathic medical schools and
as a department chair and an assistant dean at an osteopathic medical school.
I have held administrative positions in other colleges and hospitals and was
in private practice for five years, including 31⁄2 years in solo practice.
In my years, I have learned this: Changing a degree designation is not an
unusual occurrence.

Unfortunately, in the more than 100 years since the DO degree was first granted, most people still do not recognize it.

In implementing degree changes, these professions had to address the challenges of tradition, internal politics and public acceptance. However,
each change has proved to be beneficial and resulted in greater professional respect from the public.

It is time to put egos and personal feelings aside and seriously consider
changing the DO designation to OMD so we can spend more of our time,
energy and money on improving the practice of osteopathic medicine and
taking care of our patients rather than explaining our degree.

Read the full article, here.


bth

 

[toothless rufus]

Wow, is there really this much of an identity crisis? I'm from OH, grew up around D.O.s, (first doc I knew growing up was a D.O. my mom worked for) and never really appreciated the fervor of all of the issues that are associated, until recently: from the initials, the boards issues, the stats, the training, the lack of OMMs rigor as EBM, potential residency snubbing, maybe being second choice for MD rejects, etc. Its depressing.

 

[WoahMedicine]

So my question is this... if they change the degree designation while I am in medical school can I get all my loans back because I won't be getting what I initially was working toward?

Changing degrees for me would be like changing underwear. I've never worn either so, I guess I don't know what would be different.

 

[bth7]

Wow, is there really this much of an identity crisis? I'm from OH, grew up around D.O.s, (first doc I knew growing up was a D.O. my mom worked for) and never really appreciated the fervor of all of the issues that are associated, until recently: from the initials, the boards issues, the stats, the training, the lack of OMMs rigor as EBM, potential residency snubbing, maybe being second choice for MD rejects, etc. Its depressing.

Huge internal debate going on. Check it out.

Osteopathic medicine: debate

bth
Touro University, OMS IV

 

[OHMAN0125]

Huge internal debate going on. Check it out.

Osteopathic medicine: debate

bth
Touro University, OMS IV

People who want the MD degree should just use the caribbean programs that convert the degree. Otherwise if u get degree change to OMD, it still will raise the same questions. Changing it to straight MD altogether is probably unlikely. More DOs than u know have used the caribean thing. I've met several.

 

[vre984]

First, please recognize that this debate shouldn't be what makes life easier for us. This should be done for the benefit of the public and for public awareness. As the son of an MD and not knowing what a DO was, my first encounter with a phenomenal DO was incredibly stressful; I couldn't jump off the ER gurney and wikipedia osteopath or DO. Educating the patient about the DO and osteopathics at the point of care is the wrong time. I've never seen anyone refuse care from an osteopath, but I have seen the lack of understanding contribute to the level of patient stress. Because of lack of understanding they might prefer a physician with the MD designation over the DO, but the patient is unlikely to vocalize that opinion; have we unethically pushed this patient into a corner because we've tried to educate the patient at the point of care? Does the patient at the first stressful encounter feel like they're in a bait and switch scenario? All signs point to yes. The AOA has had decades to educate the public and has failed; we need a designation that does the talking for itself on the frontlines of providing care.

Why don't MD's walk around calling themselves "Allopaths"?
To cling to "DO" is equally as silly as suggesting that MDs should be "DA" (Doctor of Allopathy). Allopathic schools confer the degree "Doctor of Medicine"; which gets the designation "MD". To that effect, osteopathic medical schools confer the "Doctor of Osteopathic Medicine". The bottom line is that Allopaths and Osteopaths are both medical doctors. Now, I'm not suggesting that allopaths start refering to themselves as A-MD, AMD, MDA, MD-A...but osteopaths should recognize that they are medical graduates of osteopathic medical schools. Holding a degree from an institution that confers the degree of "Doctor of Osteopathic Medicine", you are within your legal right to refer to yourself as any of the following: O-MD, OMD, MD-O, MDO. You could also legally refer to yourself as D.O.M., but that would be as silly as an allopath using D.M.; also say this out loud - DOM is dumb.

I agree that this is all a moot point. There are currently far greater issues with health care than our designation. I don't imagine that the petition will have any effect. Decide what you want to put behind your name (either O-MD, OMD, MD-O, MDO, DO, or if you so desire...DOM - all are legal if your degree is Doctor of Osteopathic Medicine) and start treating patients. None of the designations are confusing; if you're confused by any of them, then you're more oblivious than the patients who repeatedly ask if a DO is a real doctor. Pick your designation and be proud of both your "O" and your "M"! Once all of us realize that we can legally call ourselves any of the above, this debate is over.

I'm proud of both my medical training and my osteopathic training. Regardless of what the AOA calls me, I am an osteopathic medical doctor (O-MD).

Legal sidenote - While the designation "MD, DO" solves all the questions with clarity, the designation is in a legal gray area; the designation suggests that the individual actually has two doctorates.

 

[Jonassen]

Legal sidenote - While the designation "MD, DO" solves all the questions with clarity, the designation is in a legal gray area; the designation suggests that the individual actually has two doctorates.

That's not a problem at all. In Ireland, medical school graduates get the degrees "MB, BCh, BAO" concurrently (that's right, three for Medical Bachelor, Bachelor of Surgery, and Bachelor of the Obstetric Art). All you have to do is have osteopathic schools offer concurrent MD and DO degrees to osteopathic medical graduates. The DO designation signifies OMM training etc, and the MD designation signifies ones qualifications as a Medical Doctor.

 

[andexterouss]

That's not a problem at all. In Ireland, medical school graduates get the degrees "MB, BCh, BAO" concurrently (that's right, three for Medical Bachelor, Bachelor of Surgery, and Bachelor of the Obstetric Art). All you have to do is have osteopathic schools offer concurrent MD and DO degrees to osteopathic medical graduates. The DO designation signifies
OMM training etc, and the MD designation signifies ones qualifications as a Medical Doctor.

Very interesting. I'm currently shadowing a D.O and the diploma on his wall states " Doctor of Osteopathy". He graduated in the 1960s. Times have definitely changed since then because schools no longer award "Doctor of Osteopathy" degrees instead it's now " Doctor of Osteopathic Medicine". Therefore, I wonder why it's still hyphenated as D.O and not M.D.O etc.
I think the AOA is very slow to change. It has been around for over a 100 years yet most people, even pre-med advisors, have never heard of them! What the AOA need is a good PR engine. Their maintenance of staunch distinctiveness hasn't helped advance their cause. Their mantra of looking at the "whole patient" is not believable . All doctors do that.
The AOA needs to come up with new ways that makes their schools more marketable. I mean, when a school is used as an MD backup plan, that's not a good thing. They should want students to actively seek out their schools and not to be there as a last resort.
They can still have a degree change and still maintain their OMM. Both should not be mutually exclusive. They can still name it "XXX College of Osteopathic Medicine" and yet issue a MDO or MD,DO degree.

Some would argue that if you do not want a D.O degree then don't go to a DO school. Things are not as black and white. People go to school to become a doctor first and foremost and that is a much stronger drive than the letter behind their names. However, letters can cause clarity or confusion later. For example, I once wanted to shadow a DO surgeon and the hospital admin at Lenox Hospital in NYC wouldn't let me because she had no clue what i was talking about. She had to page the surgeon and it took him 15mins on the phone to explain to her his degree. She kept saying "are you an MD or not ??". After enough back and forth, she said she still had to look into it and will get back to me later. I never heard back from the surgeon or the woman.
This might be an extreme case but I believe being a doctor is hard enough and the last thing you wanna be doing is explaining your degree to someone.
The current doctor i'm shadowing has "Dr XXX" on his white coat instead of "XXX D.0" like most MDs. Even his sign out the door has no mention of his degree only his title as a Dr and his name. I guess he too got tired of explaining his degree.

 

[JayneCobb]

instead of "XXX D.0" like most MDs.

Really? Most list their name like that?

 

[andexterouss]

Really? Most list their name like that?

Yes. Most have it such as "John Doe M.D" on their coats. " John Doe D.O" is a similarity for D.Os.

 

[Shinken]

There are DOs out there that don't put "D.O." on their white coats? We definitely must change the degree designation. You won't find a more compelling reason.

 

[Shinken]

Exactly. If you don't want the DO degree, then don't go to a DO school. Problem solved.

EXACTLY!

It's as simple as that.

However, when it comes to lack of self-esteem and the search for it, human beings will go to incredible lengths. Some eat and then self-induce vomiting. Some don't eat. Some pursue countless surgeries. Some want an external thing to provide that self-esteem (an expensive car, fancy jewelry, designer clothes, degree changes, etc.)

I find it very telling that Dr. Silvagni's main argument for the degree change is to "boost public esteem." That tells you pretty much everything you need to know. Forget quality of education or entrance standards, forget graduate medical education, forget practice rights overseas.

 

[andexterouss]

There are DOs out there that don't put "D.O." on their white coats? We definitely must change the degree designation. You won't find a more compelling reason.

You are missing the point. AOA has not done it's job of enlightening the masses of its degree. They, unfairly in my opinion, put that burden on their graduates. If you are one of those that want to sit down and explain your degree all the time to admin secretaries and patients be my guest. Most busy doctors would save themselves that effort.

EXACTLY!

It's as simple as that.

However, when it comes to lack of self-esteem and the search for it, human beings will go to incredible lengths. Some eat and then self-induce vomiting. Some don't eat. Some pursue countless surgeries. Some want an external thing to provide that self-esteem (an expensive car, fancy jewelry, designer clothes, degree changes, etc.)

I find it very telling that Dr. Silvagni's main argument for the degree change is to "boost public esteem." That tells you pretty much everything you need to know. Forget quality of education or entrance standards, forget graduate medical education, forget practice rights overseas.

This has nothing to do with self esteem. The public has firm grasp of MD not a D.O and that leads to a lot of awkward situations such as the one I described in my previous posts. The AOA has not done its job and now its students are advocating for a different alternative. AOA will be out of business if most of their students get an MD acceptance. That's the reality. It has nothing to do with self esteem. People want a degree that is understood. Simple as that. We've seen the whole incident with Newsweek and Shepard Smith on Fox news. These mishaps will continue to happen perhaps for another 100 years at the rate AOA is going.

 

[JayneCobb]

Yes. Most have it such as "John Doe M.D" on their coats. " John Doe D.O" is a similarity for D.Os.

I love it when pre-meds speak with such authority on the subject. Provide some data other than your pre-med opinion on this statement or withdraw it. I can tell you from my personal experience, it runs about the same percentages as to how physicians list their name on their coats, that is the few non-residents who actually wear coats at all. Please go ask the doc your shadowing why he lists his name that way instead of speculating that he's trying to hide that he's a D.O.

Any why is it the AOA's job to explain to the world what a D.O. is? Can you show me any D.Os who are hurting for work? Does it make a difference in the end? It hasn't in my practice and experience. for every 1 you get who refuses to see a DO, you'll see 1 who refuses to See a MD and then you'll find 5 who think docs are full of crap and only our to get their money.

Jayne Cobb D.O.

 

[SpitterOfTruth]

In case you guys didn't notice DOs are not MDs. Will DOs ever be MDs? No. Will MDs ever be DOs? No. Why change the name? Can't DOs be happy backdooring their way into medicine the way they already have? DOs and MDs are different. Hence, the different requirements for getting in to school, medical school, and residency. Be happy at the financial success you have already secured.

SpitterOfTruth
Crushing Dreams
Taking Names

 

[andexterouss]

I love it when pre-meds speak with such authority on the subject. Provide some data other than your pre-med opinion on this statement or withdraw it. I can tell you from my personal experience, it runs about the same percentages as to how physicians list their name on their coats, that is the few non-residents who actually wear coats at all. Please go ask the doc your shadowing why he lists his name that way instead of speculating that he's trying to hide that he's a D.O.

Any why is it the AOA's job to explain to the world what a D.O. is? Can you show me any D.Os who are hurting for work? Does it make a difference in the end? It hasn't in my practice and experience. for every 1 you get who refuses to see a DO, you'll see 1 who refuses to See a MD and then you'll find 5 who think docs are full of crap and only our to get their money.

Jayne Cobb D.O.

1)We are both speak from what we see. You've seen a 50/50 split. I've seen a loopsided split from my various shadowing at other facilities. Don't act like you hold sole authority on the matter. I don't have to ask the doctor. His son who practices with him is an MD and has his degree on his coat. That speaks more. The doctor is not ashamed of his degree, i believe he's trying not to create confusion with their patients.In fact, some awards in his office has him listed as "MD".

2)Apples and Oranges.We are not talking about discrimination since legally D.O and M.D are equivalent.

3) Why is it the AOA's job? Cause they present Osteopaths and as a minority group they are even more so required to advocate the cause of their constituents and that also includes public relations. Many minority communities(blacks, jews, gays.....) have such groups and use them to their advantage to promote awareness and shade a positive light on their communities.

 

[ShyRem]

How do you know the doctor who has his name as "Dr XX" is ashamed of his degree?? Maybe the MD is overly proud of his and the DO is humble. Is the professor who signs his name "Dr. O. Chem" more ashamed of his degree than the professor who signs his name "O. Chem, PhD"???? Perhaps "Dr. O. Chem" is just trying to be an MD rather than a PhD. 🙄

 

[amindwalker]

One of the OMT professors at my school is a D.O., but did not go to a US school. She was educated in England and was trained as an osteopath there. She is not a physician by any stretch of the imagination, nor is she eligible to take the COMLEX. If she were allowed to take the boards, there is no way she could pass them, because she did not study medicine. She is in effect, the foreign equivalent of a chiropractor, but she can't practice that in this country either. However, she gets to display D.O. after her name while teaching OMT in this country.

She no doubt is better trained in OMT than anyone else on staff, because in this country, we only get about 200 hours of OMT training. We are indeed benefiting from her knowledge/experience. However, it bothers me and probably a silent majority that there is no distinction between a doctor of osteopathic medicine-DO, and a foreign trained doctor of osteopathy-DO. These degrees are not the same at all, but they sure look the same.

The degree has already changed from doctor of osteopathy to doctor of osteopathic medicine, I submit that changing a letter in the initials to reflect that change is appropriate. As I have said before, dentists can have DDS or DMD after their name depending on the degree earned. But that's not confusing because both have a D for doctor and a D for dentistry. I believe that we should likewise have a D for doctor, an M for medicine, and an O for Osteopathic. The order of those letters doesn't interest me. I am happy to be at an Osteopathic medical school, so I am not advocating a switch to MD. As I said, the degree has changed and I think it should be indicated by the initials behind the name. That is all.

 

[andexterouss]

How do you know the doctor who has his name as "Dr XX" is ashamed of his degree?? Maybe the MD is overly proud of his and the DO is humble. Is the professor who signs his name "Dr. O. Chem" more ashamed of his degree than the professor who signs his name "O. Chem, PhD"???? Perhaps "Dr. O. Chem" is just trying to be an MD rather than a PhD. 🙄

Hi Shyrem. Didn't mention anything about shame.Please read my above post. Your point is well taken.

 

[ShyRem]

1)We are both speak from what we see. You've seen a 50/50 split. I've seen a loopsided split from my various shadowing at other facilities. Don't act like you hold sole authority on the matter. I don't have to ask the doctor. His son who practices with him is an MD and has his degree on his coat. That speaks more. The doctor is not ashamed of his degree, i believe he's trying not to create confusion with their patients.In fact, some awards in his office has him listed as "MD".

2)Apples and Oranges.We are not talking about discrimination since legally D.O and M.D are equivalent.

3) Why is it the AOA's job? Cause they present Osteopaths and as a minority group they are even more so required to advocate the cause of their constituents and that also includes public relations. Many minority communities(blacks, jews, gays.....) have such groups and use them to their advantage to promote awareness and shade a positive light on their communities.

Bolded part above, andexterouss. however, I believe perhaps you were referring to the DO that isn't ashamed of his degree rather than the MD?? When I first read the post, I equated "he" with the immediately preceeded doctor in the sentence (meaning the MD wasn't ashamed of his degree, implying the DO was). Perhaps you meant your pronoun to reference the DO? Two "doctors" in that post. Hard to tell which one you were referring to. I think I read it wrong. My bad. 😳

However, my point is still valid. And the arguments about hiding degrees are utterly ridiculous. The whole point is ease of recognition. If the foreigners who use the MB(whatevers) use MD because they're equivalent, how can a DO who isn't a medical physician (in the sense we think about one and in the current conversational context) from England use DO if they can't function as an American DO?? Is that not already confusion enough to necessitate a change for clarity's sake? (note I'm not saying on which side.)

 

[JayneCobb]

Don't act like you hold sole authority on the matter.

And don't act like you hold any with your what? 100 hours of clinical experience?

I don't have to ask the doctor. His son who practices with him is an MD and has his degree on his coat. That speaks more. The doctor is not ashamed of his degree, i believe he's trying not to create confusion with their patients.In fact, some awards in his office has him listed as "MD".

And this proves what? It proves that you're good at making assumptions.

3) Why is it the AOA's job? Cause they present Osteopaths and as a minority group they are even more so required to advocate the cause of their constituents and that also includes public relations. Many minority communities(blacks, jews, gays.....) have such groups and use them to their advantage to promote awareness and shade a positive light on their communities.

Saying that it's necessary often enough doesn't make it so. The only way we'd need to promote awareness is if we needed something, and the fact of the matter is, we I (excuse me, I shouldn't include you as as you're not even in medical school yet) don't need anything as I have more than enough patients to go around and already have more than enough job offers on my plate. If D.O.s were hurting for employment, or there was a negative stigma about D.O.s then you might have a point, but there isn't, so why waste the time on something so unnecessary when there are larger issues such as post-graduate education, the opening of a for-profit Osteopathic medical school, skyrocketing costs of medical schools, frequent Medicare cuts to physician pay, tort reform, and many many other things which are far more important to me as a D.O. I could care less what a pre-med or even many 1st year medical school students think as they're not out in the real world and have little to no clue where their concerns rank when it comes to the bottom line of necessity.

 

[azarep74]

I was browsing through a scientific journal the other day at work and I noticed a few MD DO's in the scientific advisory bio section. I don't know if they pursued both degrees seperately but it is still interesting. Perhaps this is a topic that has been around for some time.

 

[Shinken]

My father has a J.D. (Juris Doctor) and he signs his name "Dr. xxx" All these years I wasn't even aware he was ashamed of being a J.D.! (not the one from Scrubs either).

All D.O.s I know have no lack of patients, no lack of respect from either patients or colleagues, no lack of a good career and income. Why change the degree? Just because some guy on the street asked what a D.O. is? Just because some LPN said that it's better to be an MD? Ridiculous.

Yeah, I'm a minority (no, really). So when someone makes a disparaging remark about my race then I'm going to change my name to an American-sounding name, get color contact lenses, and dye my skin pasty white...I don't think so! I'm successful, so what do I care what a bunch of idiots think of me because of my race (or degree for that matter). You might say "well, you can't change your race but you can change your degree." Whatever, it's all the same: an attempt to hide from yourself and seek self-esteem from the outside instead of from the inside.

 

[MaximusD]

My father has a J.D. (Juris Doctor) and he signs his name "Dr. xxx" All these years I wasn't even aware he was ashamed of being a J.D.! (not the one from Scrubs either).

All D.O.s I know have no lack of patients, no lack of respect from either patients or colleagues, no lack of a good career and income. Why change the degree? Just because some guy on the street asked what a D.O. is? Just because some LPN said that it's better to be an MD? Ridiculous.

Yeah, I'm a minority (no, really). So when someone makes a disparaging remark about my race then I'm going to change my name to an American-sounding name, get color contact lenses, and dye my skin pasty white...I don't think so! I'm successful, so what do I care what a bunch of idiots think of me because of my race (or degree for that matter). You might say "well, you can't change your race but you can change your degree." Whatever, it's all the same: an attempt to hide from yourself and seek self-esteem from the outside instead of from the inside.

LOL @ YOUR DAD! NO LAWYER THAT I KNOW SIGNS THEIR NAME XXX, JD or DR XXX. ROFLMAO. Lawyers are doctors in academic title only. Any JD worth his salt knows that.

And as to the points you're trying to make... relax. Those who lead this movement are gonna go down in flames. We're all gonna be DO's so I've come to the realization that I need to stop indulging these insecure *****s. I suggest you do the same. Your points are spot-on, so take comfort in the fact that you are on the right side of this one.

I can't imagine any other profession in which the student is arrogant enough to think that he or she can change the title before he or she has earned it! What a bull**** proposition. You guys AGREED to take the DO title and become part of the osteopathic medical profession. Deal with it and be happy with what you've earned or what you're going to earn. It is a long tradition of a profession constantly seeking to better itself (no, not the AOA). It's not something to be ashamed of.

 

[andexterouss]

There is no need for name calling. It does nothing to advanced your position or squelch the opposition's argument. It only highlights one's intellectual failings. Insecurity cuts both ways: there are those that are for degree change so as to boost their self-esteem and there are also those against it because that would mean admitting to themselves that they weren't smart enough to get into an MD school. So they put on this "super DO" facade as a cover. And then there are those who have legitimate reasons for it and against. We shouldn't make broad generalization. This isn't some "movement". This debate has been on for decades. In fact, the AOA has once changed its degree.The AOA has stopped issuing a "Doctor of Osteopathy" degrees which was how D.O came to be. They now issue "Doctor of Osteopathic Medicine" but still kept the abbreviated D.O part.Not sure exactly what year when that switch happened but i'm guessing they too had some internal debate also.

As to the other poster, i'm also a minority so i see where you are coming from. However, changing one's race and one's degree are vastly different. The law profession changed its degree and that had no effect on it. Changing DO to something else won't mean the end of OMM or osteopathy because after all it's those training that distinguishes us from MDs and not the title (D.0). If you remember years back, when some blacks began adopting certain mainstream traits such as grammar and vocabulary, many in our community accused them of acting "white". This still happens in some neighborhoods today. We know that speaking proper English doesn't make one any less black than the kid that speaks Ebonics. The former advances one's standing in certain careers while the latter stunts it.

I believe that a change in the D.O hyphenate would help bring about a universal understanding of osteopathy and bring us out from the shadows since most people that know what a DO is, are those in the medical community and some advanced pre-meds. This is particularly important for those wanting to go into private practice such as myself. This is my reason for the change. One can agree or disagree but we can do it in a civil matter without emotional embitterness. This topic may not be a top priority in the grand scheme of things but it's something that can be talked about or analyzed .We are, afterall, in a forum.I'm grateful that D.O schools are willing to look at my stats but that doesn't mean we should be silent and not voice our concerns. We all complain about how sub-par some of our residency and clinical sites are compared to MD schools. Maybe we should just choke it in, afterall, we knew what we were getting into coming to a D.O school. Why complain now?

For those worried that debates like this will make allopaths laugh at us. You know what, some allopaths will laugh at us regardless: when you have threads that state what a "joke" the COMLEX is compared to USMLE or osteopaths complaining how poor some of their rotation sites are or the fact that our average MCAT scores are low to mid-20s or that over 50% of osteopaths prefer MD residencies.Some people will always find something to laugh at or scold to make themselves feel superior.

I have said my piece and I'm done with topic.

 

[DannMann99]

So they put on this "super DO" facade as a cover.

Yea. I can think of a few people on here who act that way... 🙄 what can you do.

 

[Shinken]

LOL @ YOUR DAD! NO LAWYER THAT I KNOW SIGNS THEIR NAME XXX, JD or DR XXX. ROFLMAO. Lawyers are doctors in academic title only. Any JD worth his salt knows that.

So that means that a "doctor" in academic title only cannot sign his name "Dr. xxx"? Tell that to all you PhD instructors in med school.

Besides, how many lawyers do you know? How many lawyers do you know that are not US lawyers, nor do they practice in the US? (hint: my dad didn't go to one of the many JD diploma mills in the US, nor is he American...and yes, where he is from, all JD doctoral degree holders sign their names "Dr." but since that's not the way it's done in the US, it must be wrong and worthy of laughter, isn't that correct?)

I'm actually ROFLMAO at U, KWIM?

Kids🙄

 

[WoahMedicine]

LOL @ YOUR DAD! NO LAWYER THAT I KNOW SIGNS THEIR NAME XXX, JD or DR XXX. ROFLMAO. Lawyers are doctors in academic title only. Any JD worth his salt knows that..

Classic SDN, Cheers to you my humble friend.

 

[Shinken]

You are missing the point. AOA has not done it's job of enlightening the masses of its degree. They, unfairly in my opinion, put that burden on their graduates. If you are one of those that want to sit down and explain your degree all the time to admin secretaries and patients be my guest. Most busy doctors would save themselves that effort.

So when a patient asks an MD what exactly is "maternal-fetal medicine" or what is "otolaryngology" it's the AMA's job to enlighten the public?

Besides, as was explained earlier, the degree-explanation argument is a myth. I've had to explain my degree once every two years (roughly). That's hardly a hardship on me. Only on SDN-land do DOs have to explain their degrees to their patients, which doesn't make any sense at all ("I need my gallbladder taken out...Hmmm...I think I'll have this dude with this funny degree do it. I don't know what the heck a DO is, but I'll just set up the appointment, go to his office, and ask him if he's a real doctor. I'm sure he'll explain it to me")

No, I'm not missing the point at all. Basically, everyone wants the degree name changed just as a PR move, not as a move that will improve the profession in any meaningful way.

 

[Shinken]

Classic SDN, Cheers to you my humble friend.

No, cheers to you my probationary friend.

 

[WoahMedicine]

No, cheers to you my probationary friend.

😀 I still stand that I was wrongly accused !!! lol

 

[JLM]

https://www.do-online.org/pdf/cal_hod08res306.pdf

 

[engineeredout]

https://www.do-online.org/pdf/cal_hod08res306.pdf

Anyone else find reading WHEREAS every other line rather annoying?

WHEREAS I went to the bathroom today

WHEREAS I took a dump

WHEREAS there was no paper left

WHEREAS I began to weep silently

WHEREAS I spent the rest of the day in there.