DO discrimination

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Sileni said:
So what do we do about the thousands of DO graduates? Do we force them to submit to the USMLE, now? What score would they have to get to pass?

I guess I want to get this also out in the open now. Do you think that, say, a DO who graduated from MSUCOM is any less competent thant a generic MD from MSUCHM (a low tier MD school).
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No, obviously you grandfather them in and give them MDs (probably for a small fee). This has happened before in CA.

As for your second question, I don't see them as all that different, just that the former has added quackery.

And again, I'm not questioning the competency of DO grads, I am questioning the validity of the philosophy of their degree and its reasons for independence from mainstream MD education.
 
MaxillofacialMN said:
Why?
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because ortho training in general is just more rigorous and selects for a higher caliber of practitioner than podiatry. sorry man, but its true.
you seem to think that all the surgical prowess comes from a focused approach to just 1 area. If pods are better at the foot/ankle than ortho then a pod specializing in just the big toe will be that much more phenomenal at... i dunno, big toe stuff 😕
Pods are usually pretty proficient at the things that they do, but they are also pushing for rights to perform things that orthopods do down in the foot/ankle region. I have not seen anything to indicate or suggest that a podiatrist with focused training on the foot/ankle is going to be a better surgeon in that area than an orthopedic surgeon who has a greater level of surgical expertise relating to multiple areas of the body.
 
serenade said:
Let's not generalize a few academics here on SDN as the norm. Plenty of academics likely are incredibly approachable and do not think they are the right hand of god.
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😕

G-d has a right hand? Can S/He intubate with either hand? Place a radial line in a 600 g infant with either hand? Even gloved? Whoops, wrong thread....😉

There are boatloads of DO perinatologists and neonatologists. Some academic, some not.

Even those of us who mostly do research and mostly are incredibly unapproachable and not very clinically skilled don't give a flip what degree you have.😛
 
johnnydrama said:
No, obviously you grandfather them in and give them MDs (probably for a small fee). This has happened before in CA.

As for your second question, I don't see them as all that different, just that the former has added quackery.

And again, I'm not questioning the competency of DO grads, I am questioning the validity of the philosophy of their degree and its reasons for independence from mainstream MD education.
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I dont think it worked out so well in CA. its a moot point. Why not just allow them to keep practicing. Dont have to invalidate the degree, just invalidate the accredidation of current schools and turn them MD (not that I agree with this, just saying it is not as complex as is being suggested). If we are grandfathering in anyways who cares.
 
SpecterGT260 said:
I dont think it worked out so well in CA. its a moot point. Why not just allow them to keep practicing. Dont have to invalidate the degree, just invalidate the accredidation of current schools and turn them MD (not that I agree with this, just saying it is not as complex as is being suggested). If we are grandfathering in anyways who cares.
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It worked fine in CA, but it freaked out the AOA since so many DOs jumped at the chance to switch their credentials.
 
SpecterGT260 said:
because ortho training in general is just more rigorous and selects for a higher caliber of practitioner than podiatry. sorry man, but its true.
you seem to think that all the surgical prowess comes from a focused approach to just 1 area. If pods are better at the foot/ankle than ortho then a pod specializing in just the big toe will be that much more phenomenal at... i dunno, big toe stuff 😕
Pods are usually pretty proficient at the things that they do, but they are also pushing for rights to perform things that orthopods do down in the foot/ankle region. I have not seen anything to indicate or suggest that a podiatrist with focused training on the foot/ankle is going to be a better surgeon in that area than an orthopedic surgeon who has a greater level of surgical expertise relating to multiple areas of the body.
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Okay... orthopods have greater expertise relating to multiple areas of the body, but we're not talking about multiple areas of the body. We're talking about the F/A. Tons of ortho residencies don't even have a full time F/A orthopod around, and many orthopedic departments have hired DPMs to fill that need.

If an orthopod wants to do F/A surgery, they will usually do a F/A fellowship, in which case, I will entertain the idea that they are equally as trained as a podiatrist who spent three years on the F/A. But a regular ortho who just finished residency will not have the same exposure to F/A problems as a pod has, I guarantee it.
 
Alright I'm not a moderator but I forbid anyone else from posting on this thread.

It's done.

Don't post anything

Or else.
 
MaxillofacialMN said:
Why? (i feel like a broken record)

Dentists ONLY deal with small, manually difficult tasks.
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no they dont. the bulk of their practice is cleanings, maintenance, education, and on top of that their manual techniques are mostly done under local anesthetics (arguably the hardest part since once you numb them up who cares if you're a little rough). Do you really think that a root canal, in which there are literally NO important structures around, just ones that will make your patient mad at you if you hit it, requires more dexterity than a frontal approach discectomy where you go through the neck past major vessels to dig out a disc right next to the freaking cervical spinal cord? come on man, as ive said in other threads, your opinion is due to lack of experience on the matter and a failure of imagination.

Dentists also work quite often in a visibly accessible area. The mouth is larger than a good many surgical incisions, and going in laparoscopically (something I cant imagine a dentist would do) adds a whole new level of 3-D reasoning into the mix. We dont need your girlfriend with an XBOX controller doing that surgery do we? always running while staring directly at the ground and jumping needlessly while stuck in a corner 😕
 
johnnydrama said:
It worked fine in CA, but it freaked out the AOA since so many DOs jumped at the chance to switch their credentials.
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No. It was not okay.

Ex-DO MD's in California after the merger still had to deal with professional segregation and discriminatory policies that barred their certification by allopathic boards in California and other states.

I really think you should take the time to read into this stuff before you immediately assume that just because something was done in the past it was successful.

And another mistake you made: the only CA school that was converted to MD was the California College of Medicine (now UC Irvine) which used to be the California College of Osteopathic Physicians and Surgeons. It was not the entire UC system which you made it out to be in your previous post.
 
MaxillofacialMN said:
Okay... orthopods have greater expertise relating to multiple areas of the body, but we're not talking about multiple areas of the body. We're talking about the F/A. Tons of ortho residencies don't even have a full time F/A orthopod around, and many orthopedic departments have hired DPMs to fill that need.

If an orthopod wants to do F/A surgery, they will usually do a F/A fellowship, in which case, I will entertain the idea that they are equally as trained as a podiatrist who spent three years on the F/A. But a regular ortho who just finished residency will not have the same exposure to F/A problems as a pod has, I guarantee it.
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and since you are pre-pod, what exactly is your guarantee worth?
I think you fail to understand how wide exposure can lend additional ability. It is called application. Anecdotally I am aware of quite a few people who had their ankles jacked up by pods who had to go to ortho to get things sorted out - and ive heard enough horror stories from orthopedists as well concerning messes they had to clean up to clearly direct my choices for health care for anything beyond bunion removal or shoe fitment 👍 I didnt really intend for that to come out so strong but there just wasnt a better way to say it. You are stuck on the notion that increased focus = increased ability/proficiency
 
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pattr said:
No. It was not okay.

Ex-DO MD's in California after the merger still had to deal with professional segregation and discriminatory policies that barred their certification by allopathic boards in California and other states.

I really think you should take the time to read into this stuff before you immediately assume that just because something was done in the past it was successful.

And another mistake you made: the only CA school that was converted to MD was the California College of Medicine (now UC Irvine) which used to be the California College of Osteopathic Physicians and Surgeons. It was not the entire UC system which you made it out to be in your previous post.
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I didn't say the entire UC system, was referring to UC Irvine. I had thought there was one more UC as well, but apologize if I was mistaken.
 
johnnydrama said:
I didn't say the entire UC system, was referring to UC Irvine. I had thought there was one more UC as well, but apologize if I was mistaken.
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You said "the UC schools" so it's clear how someone could think you meant the UC system. And yes you are mistaken, it's only UC Irvine. It's clear that you don't have a good understanding of the history of osteopathic medicine and the "massages" the DOs do. Nobody should care about this guys opinion.
 
TriagePreMed said:
Thank you for being so kind to make it a small fee, master.
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*shrug* Just said that because it's what they did for UC Irvine alums who wanted to switch. I'd imagine there would be paperwork involved, so of course it wouldn't be free.

I think the UCI fee was $65.00 - a lot cheaper than one of those sketchy Caribbean DO to MD programs.

And I was wrong about there being more than one UC school, but all of the points I've made are still valid.
 
The only thing I've gotten from this thread is that MD students dislike DO residencies not really because they believe that they are subpar (which may be true), but because they provide a "back door" approach to competitive specialties.

The reason the AOA wants to stay separate from MD's is not because of some deep philosophical belief about OMM, but rather, money and politics. The same two things that drive the MD side.
 
SoulinNeed said:
The only thing I've gotten from this thread is that MD students dislike DO residencies not really because they believe that they are subpar (which may be true), but because they provide a "back door" approach to competitive specialties.

The reason the AOA wants to stay separate from MD's is not because of some deep philosophical belief about OMM, but rather, money and politics. The same two things that drive the MD side.
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Yep.
 
WDeagle said:
Yep.
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Hey don't group all of us MD students/MDs with this guy. It's clear he's motivated by ego, not a desire to "better" the medical profession.
 
Sileni said:
Hey don't group all of us MD students/MDs with this guy. It's clear he's motivated by ego, not a desire to "better" the medical profession.
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Is that how you interpreted the "yep"?
 
johnnydrama said:
*shrug* Just said that because it's what they did for UC Irvine alums who wanted to switch. I'd imagine there would be paperwork involved, so of course it wouldn't be free.

I think the UCI fee was $65.00 - a lot cheaper than one of those sketchy Caribbean DO to MD programs.

And I was wrong about there being more than one UC school, but all of the points I've made are still valid.
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You did leave out the part where the swapped MD degrees were targeted out by policy to be banned from certain professional organizations and barred from certain boarding criteria (even though DO's who did not switch could, even if they were also discriminated against at the time, the degree swappers were straight up barred)
 
To johnnydrama
I'm an MD attending- I work as an intenist at a major medical center and I can tell you for a fact

1. I refer my patients to the best doctors I can MD or DO- I really don;t care and many of them are DOs.

2. I did residency at a large medical cernter (now a University program), About a 1/3 of our residents were DO grads (I saw no difference between MD or DO grads in performance as residents).

3. We had several DO chief residents and many of our DO residents went on to do quality fellowships at major programs-including in cardiology (which is fairly competitive). When you grow up and join the "working world" you will learn this.
 
Whew.

It's threads like this that remind me exactly how psychotic SDN is.
 
nowanmd said:
To johnnydrama
I'm an MD attending- I work as an intenist at a major medical center and I can tell you for a fact

1. I refer my patients to the best doctors I can MD or DO- I really don;t care and many of them are DOs.

2. I did residency at a large medical cernter (now a University program), About a 1/3 of our residents were DO grads (I saw no difference between MD or DO grads in performance as residents).

3. We had several DO chief residents and many of our DO residents went on to do quality fellowships at major programs-including in cardiology (which is fairly competitive). When you grow up and join the "working world" you will learn this.
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I've never said anything bad about DO graduates.

Nothing I've said here should be interpreted that way, and your assumption that I will judge DO graduates, particularly those who have completed ACGME residencies, as inferior in practice is incorrect.

My quarrel is with the degree itself and its continued independence and support for pseudoscientific principles like OMM.

I'm for abolishing the DO degree, not invalidating the educations of DO graduates. I thought that would have been pretty clear.
 
johnnydrama said:
And whether you like it or not, some hospitals have opened AOA residencies simply because the accreditation guidelines are less stringent.
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WDeagle said:
Like where? Give me an example I am curious.
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How about Bay Area Corpus Christi Medical Center? It has a whopping 72 beds (which also includes rehab beds). So in reality it probably has 50ish acute beds. Imagine doing your residency there.

MaxillofacialMN said:
I mean, orthos are mostly involved only in hard tissue surgery. Pods do much more than that.
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Like clip ingrown toe nails? Just kidding... Sorry, you set yourself up for it.
 
Instatewaiter said:
How about Bay Area Corpus Christi Medical Center? It has a whopping 72 beds (which also includes rehab beds). So in reality it probably has 50ish acute beds. Imagine doing your residency there.



Like clip ingrown toe nails? Just kidding... Sorry, you set yourself up for it.
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:laugh:
 
MaxillofacialMN said:
Lol well, yeah! Id rather do that than prostate exams or repair vaginal tears all day long!
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What about insert fake knees, catheterize a coronary artery, repair a malformed infant GI tract, or stitch back together an MVA victim after stabilizing him?
 
MaxillofacialMN said:
Lol well, yeah! Id rather do that than prostate exams or repair vaginal tears all day long!
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Strangely enough, I've seen plenty of patients where I'd much prefer to give them a prostate exam than touch their feet.

Do not underestimate how disgusting feet can get.
 
MaxillofacialMN said:
Okay... orthopods have greater expertise relating to multiple areas of the body, but we're not talking about multiple areas of the body. We're talking about the F/A. Tons of ortho residencies don't even have a full time F/A orthopod around, and many orthopedic departments have hired DPMs to fill that need.

If an orthopod wants to do F/A surgery, they will usually do a F/A fellowship, in which case, I will entertain the idea that they are equally as trained as a podiatrist who spent three years on the F/A. But a regular ortho who just finished residency will not have the same exposure to F/A problems as a pod has, I guarantee it.
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Like, what dude?
 
H Y F R said:
Like, what dude?
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I honestly don't know what you're asking? Are you just baffled at my statement?


And again (for the billionth time), I don't have a problem with DOs, just DOs that think they are different than MDs yet do not practice OMM.
 
MaxillofacialMN said:
I honestly don't know what you're asking? Are you just baffled at my statement?


And again (for the billionth time), I don't have a problem with DOs, just DOs that think they are different than MDs yet do not practice OMM.
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I hate to do this, but I trolled some of your post history. You seem like a good kid, good spirited and all. Bravo for being amped about the niche you hope to enter in podiatry. But please, please do not start to compare it to the expertise of an MD or DO. And please, do not interject the differences between a DO and MD when talking about podiatry. It just does not jive well.
 
H Y F R said:
I hate to do this, but I trolled some of your post history. You seem like a good kid, good spirited and all. Bravo for being amped about the niche you hope to enter in podiatry. But please, please do not start to compare it to the expertise of an MD or DO. And please, do not interject the differences between a DO and MD when talking about podiatry. It just does not jive well.
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Uhhhh.... Lol? Are you a DO student? Because I really hope so.
 
MaxillofacialMN said:
Uhhhh.... Lol? Are you a DO student? Because I really hope so.
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Why should that matter Max? Why is an aspiring podiatrist, which I have no problem with, so bent on the differences between an MD and DO? You understand that PHYSICIANS don't care about the difference? Maybe podiatrist care - sorry, had to go there.
 
H Y F R said:
Why should that matter Max? Why is an aspiring podiatrist, which I have no problem with, so bent on the differences between an MD and DO? You understand that PHYSICIANS don't care about the difference? Maybe podiatrist care - sorry, had to go there.
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I feel like you didn't read this whole thread, but whatever.

I didn't bring up being prepod until someone else did, and so I don't know what you're trying to get it. This is a thread on SDN, I'm not changing the voice of medicine here with my thoughts, so I don't know why are against me sharing them with other posters.

You being a DO student doesn't matter, but i'd find it ironic that you belittle podiatry as a career yet hold MD/DOs to the same bar.

Also: I'm not finding anything you've said extremely offensive as you seem to think it is, so nice try on the "apology."
 
H Y F R said:
I hate to do this, but I trolled some of your post history. You seem like a good kid, good spirited and all. Bravo for being amped about the niche you hope to enter in podiatry. But please, please do not start to compare it to the expertise of an MD or DO. And please, do not interject the differences between a DO and MD when talking about podiatry. It just does not jive well.
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Okay, now that I understand your intentions, I would love for you to lecture me on how MD/DOs are better suited to heal the F/A than pods are. Please, the whole medical community is anxiously awaiting your profound insight on this complex issue!
 
MaxillofacialMN said:
Okay, now that I understand your intentions, I would love for you to lecture me on how MD/DOs are better suited to heal the F/A than pods are. Please, the whole medical community is anxiously awaiting your profound insight on this complex issue!
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I'm not 👍 I know the answer already, as do most non pre- pods I would assume
 
MaxillofacialMN said:
Okay, now that I understand your intentions, I would love for you to lecture me on how MD/DOs are better suited to heal the F/A than pods are. Please, the whole medical community is anxiously awaiting your profound insight on this complex issue!
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Max, podiatry is a niche, a necessary one in some cases...

But when Charles Woodson missed multiple games due to turf toe, did he visit a DPM? When Terrell Suggs blew his Achilles, did a DPM work on him?
 
H Y F R said:
Max, podiatry is a niche, a necessary one in some cases...

But when Charles Woodson missed multiple games due to turf toe, did he visit a DPM? When Terrell Suggs blew his Achilles, did a DPM work on him?
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Obviously they just couldnt afford the elite expertise that is podiatric medicine 😉
 
H Y F R said:
Max, podiatry is a niche, a necessary one in some cases...

But when Charles Woodson missed multiple games due to turf toe, did he visit a DPM? When Terrell Suggs blew his Achilles, did a DPM work on him?
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I understand it is a niche... No one is arguing that.

I don't know who those people are, i assume professional athletes of some sort, and because you asked, I assume they were not take care if by a podiatrist, but really, I don't know, do you?

Search "team podiatrist" and you will find tons of professional (and collegiate) sports teams with podiatrists on staff.

Your anecdotal evidence is not convincing that somehow, podiatrists are inferior to MD/DOs....
 
SpecterGT260 said:
Obviously they just couldnt afford the elite expertise that is podiatric medicine 😉
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I mean, I'd pay more for a heart surgery and a brain surgery - even a spinal surgery than a hammertoe surgery, but that doesn't mean that the person performing the hammertoe is worse at performing the hammertoe than the cardiac surgeon is at performing the hammertoe even though he can bill more.

Y'all need to take some logic classes.
 
MaxillofacialMN said:
I understand it is a niche... No one is arguing that.

I don't know who those people are, i assume professional athletes of some sort, and because you asked, I assume they were not take care if by a podiatrist, but really, I don't know, do you?

Search "team podiatrist" and you will find tons of professional (and collegiate) sports teams with podiatrists on staff.

Your anecdotal evidence is not convincing that somehow, podiatrists are inferior to MD/DOs....
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I'm not going to patronize podiatrists. But the reality is, most podiatrists just do not engage in curative medicine. Does amputation of a foot due to diabetes or gangrene sound curative? No. Most often, the intricate procedures podiatrists carry out are end-of-the road procedures. But not all. This doesn't mean that they aren't important, just don't try telling me a podiatrist can perform open-heart surgery but doesn't because they choose to focus on the foot instead.
 
MaxillofacialMN said:
I mean, I'd pay more for a heart surgery and a brain surgery - even a spinal surgery than a hammertoe surgery, but that doesn't mean that the person performing the hammertoe is worse at performing the hammertoe than the cardiac surgeon is at performing the hammertoe even though he can bill more.

Y'all need to take some logic classes.
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:laugh: right. I was still comparing pods to ortho. Ill go take that logic class after you go take a reading comp class 😉
 
H Y F R said:
I'm not going to patronize podiatrists. But the reality is, most podiatrists just do not engage in curative medicine. Does amputation of a foot due to diabetes or gangrene sound curative? No. Most often, the intricate procedures podiatrists carry out are end-of-the road procedures. But not all. This doesn't mean that they aren't important, just don't try telling me a podiatrist can perform open-heart surgery but doesn't because they choose to focus on the foot instead.
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I never said a pod was going to perform a heart surgery, however I am suggesting a pod is the best resource in F/A health - including surgery. Again, I don't think you've read what ive said very carefully.
 
SpecterGT260 said:
:laugh: right. I was still comparing pods to ortho. Ill go take that logic class after you go take a reading comp class 😉
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That's irrelevant. The point remains that just because ANY surgery might cost more than a podiatry surgery doesn't mean that that surgeon is better, regardless of specialty.

Also: you never mentioned orthos, so......
 
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