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ok, just got the UNECOM secondary. So many essay questions! =S
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DO for Canadians: 2011-2012
Started by UBCvan
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ok, just got the UNECOM secondary. So many essay questions! =S
As a Canadian osteopathic physician with an unrestricted license in Canada since 1987 , and one who has been actively involved in obtaining full unrestricted licensure in Canada since 1979, Ibelieve I can provide some valuable insight into where the osteopathic professsion is in Canada and where it is going. I've read these posts over the past year. Although many comments are accurate, some reflect rumours as truth. As one enteres a "professional" field one must in all respect present as a professional. In no way should we be slamming particular schools, use expletive words or spread gossip that one really doesn't have the full details on. To do so only minimizes the credibility of all of us Canadians.
When I entered osteopathic medical school in 1979 D.O.'s in Canada were on the verge of extinction. They were limited to manipulative medicine, and there was a recent government report that indicated that Canada had too many physicians. Medical school class sizes were being decreased and access to licensure forforeign physicians was being curtailed. There was little appetite to change things for the osteopathic profession.
In spite of this, numerous letters were sent to all Canadian licensing bodies, federal/provincial governments, the Medical Council of Canada, and the Royal College of Physicians and Surgeons of Canada resulting ultimately in full unrestricted licensure in Alberta, Ontario and British Columbia.
In posts, I've noted comments at times that were derogatory to the Canadian Osteopatic Association. Let me be very clear. Essentially for most of the past 25 years, only four fully licensed osteopathic physicians have this organization alive. Although each of us has been fully licensed, with nothing to gain for ourselves we have worked hard to achieve what each of you if accepted to a D.O. school will benefit from. U.S. trained osteopathic physicians have been recognized by each of the Medical Council of Canada,the Royal College of Physicians and Surgeons of Canada the Canadian College of Family Physicians, and Carms in addition to the Federation of Medical Regulatory Authorities of Canada(FPMRAC)(composed of registrars of each provincial medical licensing authority). Things have changed. When I returned to Canada even after completing an ACGME accredited residency in Internal Medicine I had to do one year of a rotating internship. Subsequently I was accepted to a fellowship but this was rescinded after the Royal College learned about my underlying degree. Not now. You can practice in Canada now without prejudice. I have never encountered it professionally. FPMRAC as a result of the Agreement on Internal Trade has recognized the American D.O. degree as equivalent to the allopathic(M.D.) degree. This means that you will be able to practise throughout Canada fully licensed as a D.O.. Can you do this now. Not quite. Although this agreement is in place, it takes time for governments to change their legislation/regulation. In Saskatchewan and Newfoundland the registrars have bothmade written statements to this effect that once the Medical Acts are open, then these changes will be made. This does not stop one from applying though, as was done in the past and successfully so.How long will it take for these changes to be implemented? Who knows! This is where we need advocacy. Prince Edward Island, although a signature to the FPMRAC agreement fails to respond to correspondence. Otherwise throughout Canada full unrestricted licensure is available to you. The situation with regard to licensure requirements is always changing and you need to realize that one model only does not exist. You can be licensed with just an ACGME accredited residency and Comlex in Ontario as Comlex is considered an equivalent exam to the Medical Council by the College of Physicians and Surgeons of Ontario(see their policy section). However to be wise one would take the Medical Council Qualifying exams as this provides the most flexibility. The Medical Council has just re-visited in June of this year the requirement for D.O.'s to do their Evaluating Exam, the outcome of this deliberation not yet known.
Can you achieve a residency in Canada. Absolutely, and has been done. Through CARMS one applies. We are currently trying to obtain equality with our U.S. allopathic colleagues with respect to some provinces. With FMPRAC's statement of equality one hopes that the individual provinces will provide this equity. This is an on-going issue.
In the past I hav rread some condescending comments regarding Michigan State school just being out for the money. This is where one really needs to get the story right before one comments inappropriately. Six years ago at the inaugural meeting of the Osteopathic International Alliance in Washingto, D.C. members of the Canadian Osteopathic Associatio approached a number of U.S. osteopathic medical schools to see if there was interest in developing a satellite osteopathic medical school in Canada. We did this with the intent of trying to expeditiously increase our numbers. Of the several schools that were interested we pursued Michigan State recognizing its name recognition and reputation feeling that this would best help our Cause In Canada. Michigan States interest was it's status as a U.S. landgrant institution and that this fit its mandate. A steering committee was established and we met many times and are still active today. This type of undertaking takes time. Although we have met some obstacles, I don't believe these can't be overcome. Much like the work to obtain full licensure in Canada these things take time. Michigan State has agreed to accept 25 Canadians per year, not to line their pocket book as some posts have alluded to, but rather to get a jump start on a nucleus of osteopathic physicians in Ontario to jumpstart the process. This year 15 Canadians were accepted into the program even though it was started late in the admission season. In contrast to some posts implying that these Canadians were going to be delegated to a distant satellite spot, this again is not true. The Canadian students were like the American students accepted, given choices. At first we as a group of the steering felt that keeping them at one spot would promote comraderie and as such help facilitate their eventual return to Canada, a goal of the program. Some posts comment on the onerous application of Michigan State. Others comment on how ridiculous it is for other schools to ask for letters of science professors who don't really know you. In fairness to Michigan State their application emphasizes to obtain references that know you, not necessarily professors. In addition if you live a long distance away the fact that you are not interviewed saves you significant expense. Is it expensive. Yes, but so are all schools. Not being accepted could cost you one year of lost physician income, an even greater expense. In advance of someone questioning my intent, I have nothing personally to gain by correcting misinformation regarding Michigan. I just want to ensure that one has the right information.
To be sure you should apply widely. You can always turn down one school for another if you are fortunate to get accepted to more than one. Last year I told one individual to apply to a certain school as I thought that as a relatively new school the chances were probably better, although that individual was somewhat skeptical given location. I indicated that if others felt the same way that her chances were better. Needless to say that is the only school she was interviewed at and accepted. Do you need a D.O.reference? Not necessarily. As one who attends the A.O.A. convention each year and mans a booth for the Canadian Osteopathic Association I can tell you that American D.O.'s do not really know the situation in Canada. As such some committee members may question why you don't have a D.O. letter not recognizing how difficult it is for you to obtain one, and others would be very impressed that you took the effort to find a D.O. to write you a letter. Either way to me it is to your advantage to get the letter even if this means going over the border to get one. Remember you have little time and it is imperative to have your application completed as early as possible. Personally I have completed a number of these requests but it is getting harder to do all of them given the increased numbers.
To those of you that are already accepted. Now is the time to work towards making your future in Canada even better. With respect this must be done in a professional manner as now you are a professional. I believe that the Canadian students need to organize to address the issues they face, issues that are not nearly as challenging as in the past. The wheel does not need to be re-invented. Those of us who have worked so hard for your future donn't want some cowboy going off on their own. We want thoughtful discussion on issues and co-ordinated planning to attack each of the issues that affect your future. The Canadian Osteopathic Association would like to help facilitate organizing the Canadian students so that we can pass the torch on responsibly to the leaders of tomorrow.
If a liaison from each school that has Canadians can be annointed and that appointee could contact the Canadian Osteopathic Association then it is my hope that we can start a Canadian Student Osteopathic Association involving all Canadian students and develop a mission,vision and strategic plan to help promote your future and those to follow you. As Canadian osteopathic students you now have the responsibility not only to be the best for your patients but also to be the best physician you can be as you will be Ambassadors of the Osteopathic profession In Canada. May your idealism of today, transcend throughout your careers.
When I entered osteopathic medical school in 1979 D.O.'s in Canada were on the verge of extinction. They were limited to manipulative medicine, and there was a recent government report that indicated that Canada had too many physicians. Medical school class sizes were being decreased and access to licensure forforeign physicians was being curtailed. There was little appetite to change things for the osteopathic profession.
In spite of this, numerous letters were sent to all Canadian licensing bodies, federal/provincial governments, the Medical Council of Canada, and the Royal College of Physicians and Surgeons of Canada resulting ultimately in full unrestricted licensure in Alberta, Ontario and British Columbia.
In posts, I've noted comments at times that were derogatory to the Canadian Osteopatic Association. Let me be very clear. Essentially for most of the past 25 years, only four fully licensed osteopathic physicians have this organization alive. Although each of us has been fully licensed, with nothing to gain for ourselves we have worked hard to achieve what each of you if accepted to a D.O. school will benefit from. U.S. trained osteopathic physicians have been recognized by each of the Medical Council of Canada,the Royal College of Physicians and Surgeons of Canada the Canadian College of Family Physicians, and Carms in addition to the Federation of Medical Regulatory Authorities of Canada(FPMRAC)(composed of registrars of each provincial medical licensing authority). Things have changed. When I returned to Canada even after completing an ACGME accredited residency in Internal Medicine I had to do one year of a rotating internship. Subsequently I was accepted to a fellowship but this was rescinded after the Royal College learned about my underlying degree. Not now. You can practice in Canada now without prejudice. I have never encountered it professionally. FPMRAC as a result of the Agreement on Internal Trade has recognized the American D.O. degree as equivalent to the allopathic(M.D.) degree. This means that you will be able to practise throughout Canada fully licensed as a D.O.. Can you do this now. Not quite. Although this agreement is in place, it takes time for governments to change their legislation/regulation. In Saskatchewan and Newfoundland the registrars have bothmade written statements to this effect that once the Medical Acts are open, then these changes will be made. This does not stop one from applying though, as was done in the past and successfully so.How long will it take for these changes to be implemented? Who knows! This is where we need advocacy. Prince Edward Island, although a signature to the FPMRAC agreement fails to respond to correspondence. Otherwise throughout Canada full unrestricted licensure is available to you. The situation with regard to licensure requirements is always changing and you need to realize that one model only does not exist. You can be licensed with just an ACGME accredited residency and Comlex in Ontario as Comlex is considered an equivalent exam to the Medical Council by the College of Physicians and Surgeons of Ontario(see their policy section). However to be wise one would take the Medical Council Qualifying exams as this provides the most flexibility. The Medical Council has just re-visited in June of this year the requirement for D.O.'s to do their Evaluating Exam, the outcome of this deliberation not yet known.
Can you achieve a residency in Canada. Absolutely, and has been done. Through CARMS one applies. We are currently trying to obtain equality with our U.S. allopathic colleagues with respect to some provinces. With FMPRAC's statement of equality one hopes that the individual provinces will provide this equity. This is an on-going issue.
In the past I hav rread some condescending comments regarding Michigan State school just being out for the money. This is where one really needs to get the story right before one comments inappropriately. Six years ago at the inaugural meeting of the Osteopathic International Alliance in Washingto, D.C. members of the Canadian Osteopathic Associatio approached a number of U.S. osteopathic medical schools to see if there was interest in developing a satellite osteopathic medical school in Canada. We did this with the intent of trying to expeditiously increase our numbers. Of the several schools that were interested we pursued Michigan State recognizing its name recognition and reputation feeling that this would best help our Cause In Canada. Michigan States interest was it's status as a U.S. landgrant institution and that this fit its mandate. A steering committee was established and we met many times and are still active today. This type of undertaking takes time. Although we have met some obstacles, I don't believe these can't be overcome. Much like the work to obtain full licensure in Canada these things take time. Michigan State has agreed to accept 25 Canadians per year, not to line their pocket book as some posts have alluded to, but rather to get a jump start on a nucleus of osteopathic physicians in Ontario to jumpstart the process. This year 15 Canadians were accepted into the program even though it was started late in the admission season. In contrast to some posts implying that these Canadians were going to be delegated to a distant satellite spot, this again is not true. The Canadian students were like the American students accepted, given choices. At first we as a group of the steering felt that keeping them at one spot would promote comraderie and as such help facilitate their eventual return to Canada, a goal of the program. Some posts comment on the onerous application of Michigan State. Others comment on how ridiculous it is for other schools to ask for letters of science professors who don't really know you. In fairness to Michigan State their application emphasizes to obtain references that know you, not necessarily professors. In addition if you live a long distance away the fact that you are not interviewed saves you significant expense. Is it expensive. Yes, but so are all schools. Not being accepted could cost you one year of lost physician income, an even greater expense. In advance of someone questioning my intent, I have nothing personally to gain by correcting misinformation regarding Michigan. I just want to ensure that one has the right information.
To be sure you should apply widely. You can always turn down one school for another if you are fortunate to get accepted to more than one. Last year I told one individual to apply to a certain school as I thought that as a relatively new school the chances were probably better, although that individual was somewhat skeptical given location. I indicated that if others felt the same way that her chances were better. Needless to say that is the only school she was interviewed at and accepted. Do you need a D.O.reference? Not necessarily. As one who attends the A.O.A. convention each year and mans a booth for the Canadian Osteopathic Association I can tell you that American D.O.'s do not really know the situation in Canada. As such some committee members may question why you don't have a D.O. letter not recognizing how difficult it is for you to obtain one, and others would be very impressed that you took the effort to find a D.O. to write you a letter. Either way to me it is to your advantage to get the letter even if this means going over the border to get one. Remember you have little time and it is imperative to have your application completed as early as possible. Personally I have completed a number of these requests but it is getting harder to do all of them given the increased numbers.
To those of you that are already accepted. Now is the time to work towards making your future in Canada even better. With respect this must be done in a professional manner as now you are a professional. I believe that the Canadian students need to organize to address the issues they face, issues that are not nearly as challenging as in the past. The wheel does not need to be re-invented. Those of us who have worked so hard for your future donn't want some cowboy going off on their own. We want thoughtful discussion on issues and co-ordinated planning to attack each of the issues that affect your future. The Canadian Osteopathic Association would like to help facilitate organizing the Canadian students so that we can pass the torch on responsibly to the leaders of tomorrow.
If a liaison from each school that has Canadians can be annointed and that appointee could contact the Canadian Osteopathic Association then it is my hope that we can start a Canadian Student Osteopathic Association involving all Canadian students and develop a mission,vision and strategic plan to help promote your future and those to follow you. As Canadian osteopathic students you now have the responsibility not only to be the best for your patients but also to be the best physician you can be as you will be Ambassadors of the Osteopathic profession In Canada. May your idealism of today, transcend throughout your careers.
Thanks for the post Doc!
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I believe its $20,000/year.
that's what I heard too, but just wanted Cando to verify, because MSU website doesn't mention that.
Cando,
Thank you for sharing the information. Your long post is much appreciated. It's good to know that we have a very dedicated group of individuals behind our future profession. I feel very fortunate to be accepted by a DO school after being rejected by everyone else...
Thank you for sharing the information. Your long post is much appreciated. It's good to know that we have a very dedicated group of individuals behind our future profession. I feel very fortunate to be accepted by a DO school after being rejected by everyone else...
Hi Cando
I will be starting at KCUMB in 2 weeks and was pleased to see your post. I had been wondering how to get involved in the COA besides joining the Canadian Osteopathic Aid Society, which I did earlier this year. I definitely would be interested in participating in a Canadian Student Osteopathic Association so I will be contacting the COA about that. I'm not sure if there are any other Canadians in my class, but as orientation starts Aug 1, I'm sure I will find out soon. Thank you.
I will be starting at KCUMB in 2 weeks and was pleased to see your post. I had been wondering how to get involved in the COA besides joining the Canadian Osteopathic Aid Society, which I did earlier this year. I definitely would be interested in participating in a Canadian Student Osteopathic Association so I will be contacting the COA about that. I'm not sure if there are any other Canadians in my class, but as orientation starts Aug 1, I'm sure I will find out soon. Thank you.
I've submitted 6-7 secondary apps already and am complete. Still wait listed also, but that should end in a few weeks as classes begin. I'm a little more hopeful this cycle as I applied at the proper time.
Hmm 6-7. Im gonna guess NSU, AZCOM, CCOM, PCOM, MSU, KCUMB, Western, and Touro-NY?😛
Where are you wait listed again? Applying early definitely a huge advantage. I applied at this time last year but with my primary. I didnt get my secondaries in until September/ Early October. If I had good luck, im sure you will have great luck with your head start🙂
For those who have applied to WesternU, on the supplemental application you are asked to write an essay on your service in a medically underserviced or economically disadvantaged community. What if you have no experience in such a community? Is it better to be honest and leave the question blank?
from what I remember from last year, try to write anything that is relevant. If still nothing, say that you don't have such experience.
To be sure contact western.
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NSU, MSU, Western, AZCOM, CCOM, Atsu - kcom, Unecom, DMU - still waiting for KCUMB, and TOURO-NY. LECOM-E didn't send me a secondary.
Wait listed at TOURO NY, but I was pretty far down the list and AZCOM.
I may apply to Mcmaster through OMSAS since they only look at verbal on the MCAT and I think a 9 is decent. I'm not sure yet, because I'd rather do DO; however, it doesn't hurt applying broadly and possibly having choices.
..
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Ha, my computer froze and I duplicated the post! Nothing to hide. Interesting though, my AACOMAS Gpa is 3.76 and my Omsas GPA is 3.59 for the same courses and grades!
well that's BS.
Michigan State's scholarship for incoming Canadian students is $20,000.00 per year for four years as previously clarified above. For your interest, Newfoundland and Labrador have now through the Medical Act, 2011 enabled registration of American trained osteopathic physicians to their full registry. As it now stands, in Canada, the only province yet to commit itself to full licensure of osteopathic physicians is PEI. Saskatchewan has commited to change at the first legislative opportunity. Every other province has current access to full licensure for American trained osteopathic physicians.
Is MI one of the states where you can't be considered in-state if you only lived there as a student?
Edit. I guess if you're on a visa it's a moot point.
The only way to be considered in state is if you're a permanent resident. Even though I've lived here for two years working, not as a student, I still can not be considered an in state applicant. I was very disappointed when I found out.
Hi Cando,
Thank you so much for your detailed posts. It's great to hear from someone who truly have reliable inside information. Do you know how many US trained DOs are now practicing in Canada?
Thanks so much!
Thank you so much for your detailed posts. It's great to hear from someone who truly have reliable inside information. Do you know how many US trained DOs are now practicing in Canada?
Thanks so much!
Has anybody applied in the summer before 4th year (summer before graduating) and been accepted or know of anybody, since most of the program requirements I've read require at least a bachelor's degree, but I will finish the degree within that year before matriculating or do you have to finish your degree first then apply?
You can finish during the application cycle before matriculating.
welcome! you're not applying to MSU?
thanks for the response and clarification.
In some DO and MD schools you can apply after 90 credit hours. For DO's you can look at each school individually at:
http://www.aacom.org/people/colleges/Pages/default.aspx
Look at the college information book for each school and it tells you pre-reqs. I applied and was accepted to NSU after 90 credit hours.
Hope this helps.
http://www.aacom.org/people/colleges/Pages/default.aspx
Look at the college information book for each school and it tells you pre-reqs. I applied and was accepted to NSU after 90 credit hours.
Hope this helps.
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I would like to apply to MSU, but I don't have all their pre-reqs since their list is a little more inclusive then other schools. My degree is a BSc but in a specialty, so I don't quite have as many general science courses.
I would like to sincerely say "THANK YOU" Cando. It is from the hard work, sacrifices and diligence from Canadians osteopathic doctors such as yourself that all of us can benefit now.
as many of you may know, I might have one year of free time before med school starts for me. and so I've thought of working full time to pay back some of my undergrad tuition.
but the question is what kind of job? does it pay well?
I've looked into working in a research lab (as a lab tech etc) and I don't think it pays more than $13. (I have BSc in Biochem)
so do you guys have any suggestions? and I don't care what kind of job, could be research tech, could be a truck driver 🙂cool🙂.
Does anyone know of the "overseas teaching jobs", how they work, etc?
👍
but the question is what kind of job? does it pay well?
I've looked into working in a research lab (as a lab tech etc) and I don't think it pays more than $13. (I have BSc in Biochem)
so do you guys have any suggestions? and I don't care what kind of job, could be research tech, could be a truck driver 🙂cool🙂.
Does anyone know of the "overseas teaching jobs", how they work, etc?
👍
I did a lot of construction. Not sure if you can handle / want to handle that kind of work. I was making about $1200 a week doing it so I think it was worth it. Also you meet a ton of interesting people. I met all kinds of criminals, drop outs etc but also some really smart people. It was kind of fun to meet people I normally wouldnt meet in an academic setting. Plus it keeps you in good shape.
so how many hours/week are we talking? I wouldn't mind that, and as you said you meet a lot of interesting people.
umm it varied but usually 40ish. Some weeks would be up to 60 (you make ALOT those weeks). Its definitely a good summer / early fall job but once the rain comes, construction is not fun. Its also hard to find a good construction job (the ones on craigslist are bad, but sometimes there is good ones). I kind of landed my high paying ones by fluke
Do canadians really have a good chance at osteopathic medicine cause I looked at the osteopathic applicant and marticulant data for last year and it showed eighty four Canadian Applicants, and only have ten Canadian Marticulants.
http://www.aacom.org/data/applicantsmatriculants/Documents/2010Matriculantsummary.pdf
http://www.aacom.org/data/Documents/Applicants/2010-OM-Applicants-Profile.pdf
Someone correct me if I am wrong, but im just freaked out by how little the number of Canadians there are
FYI, Im a vancouverite at SFU
http://www.aacom.org/data/applicantsmatriculants/Documents/2010Matriculantsummary.pdf
http://www.aacom.org/data/Documents/Applicants/2010-OM-Applicants-Profile.pdf
Someone correct me if I am wrong, but im just freaked out by how little the number of Canadians there are
FYI, Im a vancouverite at SFU
ya.. no that can't be right.. they always underestimate the number of Canadians somehow. There's 15 in MSU alone, ~5 at WesternU..
2 at KCUMB, <1 at unecom, <1 at ccom, many at azcom, many at nsu, <1 at touroNY...
Hello fellow Canadians. Were any of you able to get social security number while attending med school in America? I went there last week to get a non-work social security number (to open up bank accounts etc) and they said no.Was anyone successful? Please help. Thanks.
For 2015, there are definitely more Canadians at Touro than you are suggesting here.
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I dunno. This could be state-dependent. I'm in NYC and I know that you are not. The rules may also vary from bank to bank. Give it a try. GL
I see, o ya, 2010 matriculating class, that was actually last year... the year I was in.. I'm fairly certain that the 2011 entering class will see a surge judging by this thread on SDN and premed101. 🙂
