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DO friendly rads programs
- Thread starter skicu
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I just rotated with with 2 interns doing a traditional AOA year at Plaza in Ft. Worth and Doctors in Columbus. One was going to the University of Kansas I believe and the other was going to Ohio State, 1st DO ever I guess. You might want to check those programs out. Also, I think this probably goes without saying, but you do need to take the USMLE and do well.skicu said:
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St. Joe's in Arizona interviews DOs. I don't know if they have ever matched one.
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I agree with the above poster but you just have to apply very broadly, i.e. 80+ programs, and you need to rotate where you really want to be at. And get good LORs. I have been a little suprised at where I have gotten interview invites because a few don't have any DO's in the program, nor faculty. You never know. 
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Molly Maquire said:
I know a resident in that program and this person flat out told me as a DO applicant you would need a step 1 score in excess of 240 to stand a realistic chance of matching there. This resident claimed their new policy is to not discriminate between M.D.'s and D.O.'s. but that D.O.'s better have high Step 1 scores to be competitive. The resident mentioned that grades were more or less meaningless at St. Joes and it wa all about board scores. It's a pretty tight knit group. He also said that DO's who apply and rotate there shouldn't go out of their way to distinguish themselves as DO's.
Above poster: "This resident claimed their new policy is to not discriminate between M.D.'s and D.O.'s. but that D.O.'s better have high Step 1 scores to be competitive."
To any and all readers, I would ask...isn't this the definition of discrimination, though? I'm sure MD applicants have to have high scores to be competetive, too. But in the above statement it is implied that the DOs need to bring something extra to the table, i.e. have even higher scores than the MD applicants, JUST because they are DOs. Thoughts?
BP
To any and all readers, I would ask...isn't this the definition of discrimination, though? I'm sure MD applicants have to have high scores to be competetive, too. But in the above statement it is implied that the DOs need to bring something extra to the table, i.e. have even higher scores than the MD applicants, JUST because they are DOs. Thoughts?
BP
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I think the implication is that everyone better have high Step 1 scores to match there.
Idiopathic: "I think the implication is that everyone better have high Step 1 scores to match there."
Gotcha, I got no problem with that. By the way, love the Aqua Teen avatar.
(Favorite recent ATHF lines: "This reminds me of a severely long story..." and "Prepare for a pride-liberating bitch-slap.")
Anyway, continued luck to all rads applicants. Big days coming up, here.
BP
Gotcha, I got no problem with that. By the way, love the Aqua Teen avatar.
(Favorite recent ATHF lines: "This reminds me of a severely long story..." and "Prepare for a pride-liberating bitch-slap.")
Anyway, continued luck to all rads applicants. Big days coming up, here.
BP
Pikevillemedstudent
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Aultman in Canton, OH has a D.O. program director and I know they will have a DO PGY2 in starting in July. I am not sure if there are other DO's in the program.
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"No, I know...see, its a reverse vampire. They crave the sun."
Sorry
Sorry
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The University of Pittsburg and Drexel in Philly also both have DO program directors.
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BigPimpin said:
Keep in mind that this was my interpretation of what the resident said, he or she may have implied or stated something else. The resident claimed that St. Joes weighs board scores much more highly than grades. The resident claimed that the USMLE and not the COMLEX would be weighed highly. If you have great board scores, St. Joes may give you a shot.
Anyway, would you really be that shocked if a program discriminated against DO's?
Understood regarding the above quote being your interpretation.
I guess I would hate to think that an MD program would discriminate against DOs, because we all know how unfortunate that would be. It's not like I've had a long and illustrious career in medicine to this point, but in all the places I've worked, which would encompass rotations done in six states, I have yet to see any true MD vs DO animosity. This observation would lead one to the conclusion that discrimination or prejudice in either direction is absurd, and I would hate to (and find it very difficult to realistically) think that I have done my rotations at places that were simply more enlightened than everywhere else in this regard. But I guess this exists, and it does indeed exist in both directions, and that is both unfortunate and ridiculous.
My initial reaction to your post was that the following situation was common: MD takes MD boards, gets high score, is considered for spot. DO takes MD boards, gets same score, but is considered LESS for the spot because he/she's a DO. I figured, hey, it's bad enough that the DO took YOUR boards since the DO boards aren't even being considered (an insult), but even though that person gets the same board scores as the MD applicant, you're gonna shine him simply because he has a DO instead of an MD. But after thinking about it, I guess if you want the residency spot, you have to jump through whatever hoops the program puts up, misguided though they may be.
BP
I guess I would hate to think that an MD program would discriminate against DOs, because we all know how unfortunate that would be. It's not like I've had a long and illustrious career in medicine to this point, but in all the places I've worked, which would encompass rotations done in six states, I have yet to see any true MD vs DO animosity. This observation would lead one to the conclusion that discrimination or prejudice in either direction is absurd, and I would hate to (and find it very difficult to realistically) think that I have done my rotations at places that were simply more enlightened than everywhere else in this regard. But I guess this exists, and it does indeed exist in both directions, and that is both unfortunate and ridiculous.
My initial reaction to your post was that the following situation was common: MD takes MD boards, gets high score, is considered for spot. DO takes MD boards, gets same score, but is considered LESS for the spot because he/she's a DO. I figured, hey, it's bad enough that the DO took YOUR boards since the DO boards aren't even being considered (an insult), but even though that person gets the same board scores as the MD applicant, you're gonna shine him simply because he has a DO instead of an MD. But after thinking about it, I guess if you want the residency spot, you have to jump through whatever hoops the program puts up, misguided though they may be.
BP
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BigPimpin said:
There is a difference between animosity and discrimination. Yes, working on the wards and doing rotations, I felt no animosity from M.D.'s However, when you are talking about reviewing applicants for spots in a very competitive pool, discrimination unfortunately does take place. Some people still believe that since is generally more difficult to be accepted into an M.D. school versus a D.O. school, the M.D. applicant deserves some leeway when scores are close. As a D.O., I don't like this policy but I see the other side as well.
I bet even your enlightened program isn't so enlightened when they review candidates for radiology positions and other competitive fields. I think you are a little misguided and naive about this process. Just because the program is nice to you in person and treats you with respect on a rotation does in no way mean they will evaluate you on par with an M.D. applicant. In fact, very few M.D. programs will weigh DO and M.D. applicants in the same manner. Programs that traditionally accept DO's in competitve fields like radiology only do so if the DO is better than the average applicant. And these are the DO "friendly" programs. The ones that aren't DO friendly do not even consider DO's regardless of how high their scores and LORs are.
It's not an insult having to take the USMLE. In fact, it's sheer whining to complain about having to take it. Personally, I saw the test as a challenge. I wanted to prove to myself that I was as good as any M.D. applicant and I ended up scoring very well on the exam due to the extra preparation and hard work I placed toward it. I didn't whine about having to take the USMLE and I don't think any DO should complain about having to take it if they are applying to an allopathic program. If you are trying to match into their program so it's only appropriate you take the same test that their guys have to take. You don't have to apply to an allo radiology program. You can apply only to the osteopathic ones.
novacek88: "...when you are talking about reviewing applicants for spots in a very competitive pool, discrimination unfortunately does take place. Some people still believe that since is generally more difficult to be accepted into an M.D. school versus a D.O. school, the M.D. applicant deserves some leeway when scores are close. As a D.O., I don't like this policy but I see the other side as well."
Right, so we agree on this. What you say here is congruent to what I wrote in the last part of my first graf.
novacek88: "I bet even your enlightened program isn't so enlightened when they review candidates for radiology positions and other competitive fields."
I said that I did NOT think the places (plural) where I had done my rotations were overly-enlightened, and that I would HATE to think they were, since they did not show any MD-on-DO animosity.
novacek88: "It's not an insult having to take the USMLE. In fact, it's sheer whining to complain about having to take it."
I didn't say it's insulting for a DO to have to take the USMLE. I said it was insulting when the COMLEX is given zero consideration (there are many MD programs in many disciplines that do indeed consider the COMLEX). But to be honest with you, since you bring it up, I have been thinking about my statement since I wrote it, and I will capitulate on this point. I have concluded that a DO taking the USMLE merely makes things easier for everyone (specifically the admit committees for the MD residency programs), and it's just another hoop to jump through if one wants a spot badly enough.
novacek88: "I saw the test as a challenge. I wanted to prove to myself that I was as good as any M.D. applicant and I ended up scoring very well on the exam due to the extra preparation and hard work I placed toward it."
First, congrats on your performance. Second, I would hope that, USMLE or no USMLE, you would not feel a pressing need to prove yourself to be as good as any MD applicant, just because you graduated from a DO school. Sure, it's fun to do well on an important exam. Personally, when I graduate in a few months, I will know that I am as good as any MD applicant. There may be MDs and DOs better than me, there may be MDs and DOs worse than me. The point is that I did the work and I put in the time. I worked my butt off, as I'm sure you did. I am confident that I can learn any discipline if/when given the chance. MD or DO, we all have to work like madmen to achieve our goals. I need no test to prove this to myself.
novacek88: "I think you are a little misguided and naive about this process."
If you'll go back and reread my post and yours, you'll see we agree on more than you seem to think. I would be careful about how I throw around such attacks.
So, let me state my position on this more clearly, and for the record. THIS is what I think is unfair. MD takes boards, gets score X. DO takes same boards, gets same score X. Both applicants are equal in every way. MD is considered at MD program more readily SOLELY because the letters after his/her name are MD, and not DO.
Don't get me wrong, it would STILL be unfair if it could go the other way; meaning if the DO were considered more favorable than an otherwise completely equal -- in boards and all -- MD applicant in a DO program, if MDs could apply to DO programs.
Now, we have both said that even though such discrimination is unfortunate, it exists, and as a DO you just have to suck it up and play the game. And assuming you are right about DO schools being easier to get into than MD schools, then if I (or you, or any DO applicant) am being counted against ONLY because I am a DO (i.e. that is the only difference between me and other applicants, on the whole), then by this logic, what evidently carries a LOT of weight as to whether or not I get a competetive residency position...is how I did during my undergraduate time. The days of English 101 and Organic Chemistry, the Recombinant DNA lab and Sociology.
Wouldn't you consider this to be a bit "misguided and naive," yourself?
BP
Right, so we agree on this. What you say here is congruent to what I wrote in the last part of my first graf.
novacek88: "I bet even your enlightened program isn't so enlightened when they review candidates for radiology positions and other competitive fields."
I said that I did NOT think the places (plural) where I had done my rotations were overly-enlightened, and that I would HATE to think they were, since they did not show any MD-on-DO animosity.
novacek88: "It's not an insult having to take the USMLE. In fact, it's sheer whining to complain about having to take it."
I didn't say it's insulting for a DO to have to take the USMLE. I said it was insulting when the COMLEX is given zero consideration (there are many MD programs in many disciplines that do indeed consider the COMLEX). But to be honest with you, since you bring it up, I have been thinking about my statement since I wrote it, and I will capitulate on this point. I have concluded that a DO taking the USMLE merely makes things easier for everyone (specifically the admit committees for the MD residency programs), and it's just another hoop to jump through if one wants a spot badly enough.
novacek88: "I saw the test as a challenge. I wanted to prove to myself that I was as good as any M.D. applicant and I ended up scoring very well on the exam due to the extra preparation and hard work I placed toward it."
First, congrats on your performance. Second, I would hope that, USMLE or no USMLE, you would not feel a pressing need to prove yourself to be as good as any MD applicant, just because you graduated from a DO school. Sure, it's fun to do well on an important exam. Personally, when I graduate in a few months, I will know that I am as good as any MD applicant. There may be MDs and DOs better than me, there may be MDs and DOs worse than me. The point is that I did the work and I put in the time. I worked my butt off, as I'm sure you did. I am confident that I can learn any discipline if/when given the chance. MD or DO, we all have to work like madmen to achieve our goals. I need no test to prove this to myself.
novacek88: "I think you are a little misguided and naive about this process."
If you'll go back and reread my post and yours, you'll see we agree on more than you seem to think. I would be careful about how I throw around such attacks.
So, let me state my position on this more clearly, and for the record. THIS is what I think is unfair. MD takes boards, gets score X. DO takes same boards, gets same score X. Both applicants are equal in every way. MD is considered at MD program more readily SOLELY because the letters after his/her name are MD, and not DO.
Don't get me wrong, it would STILL be unfair if it could go the other way; meaning if the DO were considered more favorable than an otherwise completely equal -- in boards and all -- MD applicant in a DO program, if MDs could apply to DO programs.
Now, we have both said that even though such discrimination is unfortunate, it exists, and as a DO you just have to suck it up and play the game. And assuming you are right about DO schools being easier to get into than MD schools, then if I (or you, or any DO applicant) am being counted against ONLY because I am a DO (i.e. that is the only difference between me and other applicants, on the whole), then by this logic, what evidently carries a LOT of weight as to whether or not I get a competetive residency position...is how I did during my undergraduate time. The days of English 101 and Organic Chemistry, the Recombinant DNA lab and Sociology.
Wouldn't you consider this to be a bit "misguided and naive," yourself?
BP
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Dont know if a Harvard affiliate would ever be considered DO friendly, but BWH does have a DO in their residency--- I think he went to AZCOM. Good luck!
Oh, and good luck to Idio on his quest for an allo NSurg spot too.
Oh, and good luck to Idio on his quest for an allo NSurg spot too.
Are not MDs discriminated against by our profession since they cannot apply to DO programs?
Just a thought.
Anyway, I wanted to add that I agree you can get interviews and even match at places that have not had a DO before (as mentioned by an eirlier poster), but since the thread is about "DO friendly" programs, I took that as meaning the places that really like DOs.
Specifically places like UofI-Peoria, Cook County, UPittsburgh, Christiana Care, Aultman, MCO, Cleveland Clinic, Geisinger, etc. These places have proven track records with DOs. I interviewed out in Oregon, but would I consider them to be DO friendly? Probably not.
Now if I match there....
Just a thought.
Anyway, I wanted to add that I agree you can get interviews and even match at places that have not had a DO before (as mentioned by an eirlier poster), but since the thread is about "DO friendly" programs, I took that as meaning the places that really like DOs.
Specifically places like UofI-Peoria, Cook County, UPittsburgh, Christiana Care, Aultman, MCO, Cleveland Clinic, Geisinger, etc. These places have proven track records with DOs. I interviewed out in Oregon, but would I consider them to be DO friendly? Probably not.
Now if I match there....
