Do I pursue an SMP? Advice Welcome and Desired!
Started by Cawolf
Get help with your application
Use all the free resources available to you from SDN: articles, guides, expert advising, forums discussions, and school research.
Timing is tricky with this, but you're asking early so yay.
AMCAS needs to be early. That means submitting your complete-including-MCAT-score app as close to June 1 as possible. You have GPA damage so you can't screw around or play games: it's better to wait to apply with a strong and complete app than to try to get away with not having your act together. The difference is in the size of your rejection letter pile, the quality of the school you get into, and the magnitude of your debt. Seriously consider not applying MD in June '15 because you'll be scrambling and sabotaging yourself.
Timing the MCAT: you want to take it once and only once and get your best possible score. Retakes are for disasters. The MCAT is not a burrito punch card. So you have to decide whether you'll take the MCAT in time to apply June '15, or take it after you're done with your coursework and done with a rigorous prep course. Given that you have to keep piling up A's in your remaining coursework, you should seriously consider NOT taking the MCAT until later in the summer or fall.
Timing SMP apps: you need your MCAT score before you apply. SMP apps open in October or so. Should you be looking at the SMP app deadlines? No you should not. You should be lining up your ducks so that you have an MCAT score and all your letters and such in late fall. If you're not done with the prereqs, you can't be thinking about taking the MCAT in time to apply to good SMPs for fall '15.
Timing MD apps with SMP enrollment: for best results, apply MD after you successfully finish your SMP. Of course you're in a hurry and you'll ignore this advice and not get into the best, cheapest school possible and then in 5 years you'll be really pissed off at your younger self.
If you're in a hurry, just focus on DO, take the MCAT when you're done with prereqs, and apply late summer 2015.
If you're in California, multiply the "slow down" advice above by 10.
More info on how to not squander your nicely-done-so-far GPA redemption:
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/drmidlifes-reapplication-dissertation.942893/
Best of luck to you.
AMCAS needs to be early. That means submitting your complete-including-MCAT-score app as close to June 1 as possible. You have GPA damage so you can't screw around or play games: it's better to wait to apply with a strong and complete app than to try to get away with not having your act together. The difference is in the size of your rejection letter pile, the quality of the school you get into, and the magnitude of your debt. Seriously consider not applying MD in June '15 because you'll be scrambling and sabotaging yourself.
Timing the MCAT: you want to take it once and only once and get your best possible score. Retakes are for disasters. The MCAT is not a burrito punch card. So you have to decide whether you'll take the MCAT in time to apply June '15, or take it after you're done with your coursework and done with a rigorous prep course. Given that you have to keep piling up A's in your remaining coursework, you should seriously consider NOT taking the MCAT until later in the summer or fall.
Timing SMP apps: you need your MCAT score before you apply. SMP apps open in October or so. Should you be looking at the SMP app deadlines? No you should not. You should be lining up your ducks so that you have an MCAT score and all your letters and such in late fall. If you're not done with the prereqs, you can't be thinking about taking the MCAT in time to apply to good SMPs for fall '15.
Timing MD apps with SMP enrollment: for best results, apply MD after you successfully finish your SMP. Of course you're in a hurry and you'll ignore this advice and not get into the best, cheapest school possible and then in 5 years you'll be really pissed off at your younger self.
If you're in a hurry, just focus on DO, take the MCAT when you're done with prereqs, and apply late summer 2015.
If you're in California, multiply the "slow down" advice above by 10.
More info on how to not squander your nicely-done-so-far GPA redemption:
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/drmidlifes-reapplication-dissertation.942893/
Best of luck to you.
Advertisement - Members don't see this ad
I completely disagree. I think you should just apply this cycle or the next one. With a GPA thats close to the average, why not? You clearly are a very interesting candidate with all of your experiences. And why not take the MCAT while most of the info is fresh! At your age, why not go for it now rather than waiting?
Ah. I thought you were still finishing prereqs. I missed this part:
The only thing I'd be worried about with Jan '15 is that you're a guinea pig for the new MCAT. Is October a possibility? Don't rush, but this is something to consider. I don't think the 2015 format change is scary, but being in the first cohort with the changes is scary.
If you want to establish residency where you're doing school, look up the rules. Typically you have to work and pay rent for 1-2 years and register to drive/vote and give up all claims on your other state. You have to pick your home state when you submit AMCAS (doesn't matter for AACOMAS except in Texas & Michigan because most DO schools are private), which determines whether the school considers you instate for admissions. Then, separately, you have to submit legit paperwork to prove your domicile, usually after you get accepted, and this process runs a race against the start of school. Pain in the butt, but six figures of worth it.
But, you're a Californian until/unless you prove otherwise, and that nails the coffin of any plan to reasonably apply in June '15, imho. You should do everything you possibly can to get into a UC.
The difference between getting into your home state public school vs. getting into a private and/or OOS school is very important to understand unless you are wealthy. Six figures of important. This doesn't get talked about anywhere near enough by premed advisers nor med school admissions officers, which is dereliction of duty.
Please note that being enrolled in an SMP doesn't really get any work done for your app, unless you get into Temple and want to stay at Temple. Maybe RFU. If you get a really great MCAT, maybe 34+, then I'd put 50% odds on getting some MD love during an SMP year. Same odds on getting a California interview if you apply to all CA schools, but maybe 5% odds of that interview going anywhere.
In summary:
If you apply June '15, you have no chance in California, whether you're in an SMP or not.
If you apply June '15 and do an SMP and apply same year, you have about 50% odds outside California if you apply to >25 reasonable schools.
If you do an SMP and apply June '16 then you have a chance in California, but you still might have to apply more than once. Your odds will be better OOS as well.
My personal favorite strategy for GPA-redeemed-but-still-low Californians is to do a rigorous traditional masters with pubs, such as in biochem or genetics, at a UC, for 2 years, instead of doing an SMP. This minimizes debt, maximizes your academic credibility, and does the most to get you into a UC med school.
The above formula is based on my experience with west coast public schools, my own SMP and my med school classmates and SDN over 8 years, after a completely unrelated 20 year career analyzing systems and risks and outcomes. Take it or leave it. And understand that I'm just trying to help you make a good plan: there is never ever ever a guarantee of any kind.
Best of luck to you.
That might be okay for SMP apps, but have everything ready to go while you're waiting for your score.
The only thing I'd be worried about with Jan '15 is that you're a guinea pig for the new MCAT. Is October a possibility? Don't rush, but this is something to consider. I don't think the 2015 format change is scary, but being in the first cohort with the changes is scary.
Doesn't matter where you live for school, because being in school doesn't establish a domicile except in Ohio (last I checked).
If you want to establish residency where you're doing school, look up the rules. Typically you have to work and pay rent for 1-2 years and register to drive/vote and give up all claims on your other state. You have to pick your home state when you submit AMCAS (doesn't matter for AACOMAS except in Texas & Michigan because most DO schools are private), which determines whether the school considers you instate for admissions. Then, separately, you have to submit legit paperwork to prove your domicile, usually after you get accepted, and this process runs a race against the start of school. Pain in the butt, but six figures of worth it.
But, you're a Californian until/unless you prove otherwise, and that nails the coffin of any plan to reasonably apply in June '15, imho. You should do everything you possibly can to get into a UC.
Spend some time in the reapplicant forum, and get a look at the yearly parade of 3.8/35 Californians who don't get accepted even though they do everything right. With California admissions, you're just up against too much competition to see how it goes with your numbers and experience. Guess who populates all these east coast SMPs? Yup, Californians, and most have completely reasonable stats to get accepted instate if they weren't Californians.
The difference between getting into your home state public school vs. getting into a private and/or OOS school is very important to understand unless you are wealthy. Six figures of important. This doesn't get talked about anywhere near enough by premed advisers nor med school admissions officers, which is dereliction of duty.
Please note that being enrolled in an SMP doesn't really get any work done for your app, unless you get into Temple and want to stay at Temple. Maybe RFU. If you get a really great MCAT, maybe 34+, then I'd put 50% odds on getting some MD love during an SMP year. Same odds on getting a California interview if you apply to all CA schools, but maybe 5% odds of that interview going anywhere.
In summary:
If you apply June '15, you have no chance in California, whether you're in an SMP or not.
If you apply June '15 and do an SMP and apply same year, you have about 50% odds outside California if you apply to >25 reasonable schools.
If you do an SMP and apply June '16 then you have a chance in California, but you still might have to apply more than once. Your odds will be better OOS as well.
My personal favorite strategy for GPA-redeemed-but-still-low Californians is to do a rigorous traditional masters with pubs, such as in biochem or genetics, at a UC, for 2 years, instead of doing an SMP. This minimizes debt, maximizes your academic credibility, and does the most to get you into a UC med school.
The above formula is based on my experience with west coast public schools, my own SMP and my med school classmates and SDN over 8 years, after a completely unrelated 20 year career analyzing systems and risks and outcomes. Take it or leave it. And understand that I'm just trying to help you make a good plan: there is never ever ever a guarantee of any kind.
Sounds like you aren't familiar with California, or with med school debt implications. //shrug//
Best of luck to you.
Thanks so much to DrMidlife for his/her feedback here. I found the dissertation, in addition to the feedback in this thread, to be invaluable, especially for CA applicants.
Thanks to Cawolf for getting the discussion going, too.
Please have a great day, and good luck to both Cawolf and DrMidlife in their respective stages of the medical education process.
Thanks to Cawolf for getting the discussion going, too.
Please have a great day, and good luck to both Cawolf and DrMidlife in their respective stages of the medical education process.
Do you think you could clarify when you say a traditional master's (with pubs) maximizes your academic credibility?
I haven't done any research on SMPs vs. traditional master's yet. But I would think that doing an SMP, one where you take at least some classes alongside medical students, or one that follows a curriculum similar to medical school, would be the "maximum" indicator of a student's academic ability to handle medical school. A traditional master's doesn't necessarily follow medical school curriculum, so how would it maximize your academic credibility in the eyes of medical school adcoms?
I specified Californians, grad work at a UC, and targeting UCs for med school in that advice. It's not general advice.
Gtown/Drexel/etc are loaded with vast hordes of Californians who mostly give up on ever getting an instate acceptance. And they're spending $50k+ and moving cross-country. I think getting into a UC should be priority #1, and I think it's worth waiting to start med school to get into a UC.
It's always a reasonable alternative to do rigorous grad work instead of an SMP, but in any case you bear the burden of making yourself easy to understand. You can't assume a random med school will do work to evaluate the rigor of your program or pubs or the journal that publishes you. With a well-established SMP you can somewhat assume that med schools understand. When you can do grad work in the same system as a multi-campus public med school system such as the UCs, you can somewhat assume that you'll be understood by the UC's.
My $.02. Best of luck to you.
Gtown/Drexel/etc are loaded with vast hordes of Californians who mostly give up on ever getting an instate acceptance. And they're spending $50k+ and moving cross-country. I think getting into a UC should be priority #1, and I think it's worth waiting to start med school to get into a UC.
It's always a reasonable alternative to do rigorous grad work instead of an SMP, but in any case you bear the burden of making yourself easy to understand. You can't assume a random med school will do work to evaluate the rigor of your program or pubs or the journal that publishes you. With a well-established SMP you can somewhat assume that med schools understand. When you can do grad work in the same system as a multi-campus public med school system such as the UCs, you can somewhat assume that you'll be understood by the UC's.
My $.02. Best of luck to you.
Wait till you get your MCAT score back to decide on the SMP. However, I agree have applications ready to go just in case.
If you can pull off a 34 or higher score, that combined with your upward grade trend and ECs should make you a competitive candidate for many MD schools. Probably not top 30 schools unfortunately.
Either way you'll need to apply early, broadly, and smartly to 30+ schools.
If you get lower than a 34 I'd go for the SMP. If you've been doing that well in postbacc classes, you should be able to succeed in an SMP provided you're willing to dedicate a year of your life to nothing but studying. They're expensive, but if you do well you should have a great shot at multiple MD acceptances unlike if you were to apply with just your current GPA.
If you can pull off a 34 or higher score, that combined with your upward grade trend and ECs should make you a competitive candidate for many MD schools. Probably not top 30 schools unfortunately.
Either way you'll need to apply early, broadly, and smartly to 30+ schools.
If you get lower than a 34 I'd go for the SMP. If you've been doing that well in postbacc classes, you should be able to succeed in an SMP provided you're willing to dedicate a year of your life to nothing but studying. They're expensive, but if you do well you should have a great shot at multiple MD acceptances unlike if you were to apply with just your current GPA.
