DO & MD Residency Merger Questions

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So I know that there are some people talking about an upcoming DO & MD Residency Merger for the next few years. But I've seen some people saying that it's not as all-encompassing as it sounds? I wanted to clarify my understanding of it, and was hoping some folks here would know more, because it would make a huge difference to the way I approached applications next year.

I saw some news releases on this ( http://www.do-online.org/TheDO/?p=115861 , http://pressreleases.kcstar.com/release/messages/31319/ ) - if I'm reading these right, the residencies are slated to join in 2015. Do you know if this is just a theoretical plan or an official decision? And if it is an official decision, will this mean that DOs will be on equal footing for residencies with MDs?

I elected not to apply to DO schools this past cycle because I intend to be a pathologist, and DO pathology residencies are all but nonexistent. Applying to MD residencies as a DO would be very difficult, as I understand it. If that issue was moot due to the residencies merging, then that would open up DO schools to me again. But I hesitate to apply if it's only a theoretical plan rather than a decision that has a timeline on it, as I know theoretical plans may fall through. If you know either way, that would be incredibly helpful.
 
there are plenty of do's in path if you ever bother to check.
 
As I understand it this time line is for real. The real question is will there still be a biased in some programs. Just because it is all one match doesn't mean programs need to rank DO's. However, most of my colleagues had no trouble matching into the specialty of their choice and I don't see that changing.

Survivor DO
 
No, the AOA and the ACGME were never serious. They made the announcement because they were bored.

Typical Caribbean troll post.
 
there are plenty of do's in path if you ever bother to check.

Seriously. This wasn't hard to find either.
k8SdLF2.png
 
No, the AOA and the ACGME were never serious. They made the announcement because they were bored.

Typical Caribbean troll post.

I was in no way implying that they weren't serious. But sometimes leading decision-making bodies make theoretical plans that eventually fall through. There's a difference between that and an official decision, and I had a specific question about it.

As I understand it this time line is for real. The real question is will there still be a biased in some programs. Just because it is all one match doesn't mean programs need to rank DO's. However, most of my colleagues had no trouble matching into the specialty of their choice and I don't see that changing.

Okay, thanks, that's good to know! I will keep that in mind. Thanks for the help!

Quote:
Originally Posted by oms2 View Post
there are plenty of do's in path if you ever bother to check.
Seriously. This wasn't hard to find either.

I'm not saying there aren't any DO's in path. What I was saying was that, from the sources I've looked at, there aren't any established DO path residencies. If I'm wrong, I'd be glad, because that would be great. But when you search on the AOA residency search, there isn't even a selection option for path.

160ddz6.png


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I was in no way implying that they weren't serious. But sometimes leading decision-making bodies make theoretical plans that eventually fall through. There's a difference between that and an official decision, and I had a specific question about it.



Okay, thanks, that's good to know! I will keep that in mind. Thanks for the help!



I'm not saying there aren't any DO's in path. What I was saying was that, from the sources I've looked at, there aren't any established DO path residencies. If I'm wrong, I'd be glad, because that would be great. But when you search on the AOA residency search, there isn't even a selection option for path.

160ddz6.png


jfdklx.png

OP, of all the specialties, ACGME path is one of the easiest specialties for DO's to match into. You would be well advised to apply DO even if the upcoming merger were non-existent.
 
I was in no way implying that they weren't serious. But sometimes leading decision-making bodies make theoretical plans that eventually fall through. There's a difference between that and an official decision, and I had a specific question about it.



Okay, thanks, that's good to know! I will keep that in mind. Thanks for the help!



I'm not saying there aren't any DO's in path. What I was saying was that, from the sources I've looked at, there aren't any established DO path residencies. If I'm wrong, I'd be glad, because that would be great. But when you search on the AOA residency search, there isn't even a selection option for path.

160ddz6.png


jfdklx.png

You do realize that 70% of DOs go to ACGME residencies?
And that chances are you won't want to be a pathologist by 4th year?
 
Pathology is DO friendly. Pretty much all state university programs will take DOs. Then maybe like 1/2 or 1/3 of the top path programs will take DOs for residency. Almost all path programs will take DOs as fellows.
 
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Does this mean that there is now a unified timberline for applying and people will no longer wait DO and then MD

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I747 using Tapatalk 2
 
Does this mean that there is now a unified timberline for applying and people will no longer wait DO and then MD

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I747 using Tapatalk 2

Google the AOA-ACGME merger and read it for yourself. I have no idea what you just asked.
 
Does this mean that there is now a unified timberline for applying and people will no longer wait DO and then MD

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I747 using Tapatalk 2

A unified Timberlake? Man. IDK. Justin Timberlake hasn't felt unified since he and Brit Brit broke it off in the early 2000's.

britney-spears-justin-timberlake-had-sex.jpeg
 
there are plenty of do's in path if you ever bother to check.

Yeah, I personally know like 4-5 DO pathologists, and that's like half the pathologists I know.

I'm not saying there aren't any DO's in path. What I was saying was that, from the sources I've looked at, there aren't any established DO path residencies. If I'm wrong, I'd be glad, because that would be great. But when you search on the AOA residency search, there isn't even a selection option for path.

That doesn't really matter. Most DOs match into ACGME residencies, and path is very DO friendly, so going DO will not hold you back from that specialty.

Does this mean that there is now a unified timberline for applying and people will no longer wait DO and then MD

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I747 using Tapatalk 2

Yeah, by 2015 they intend to consolidate the match for DOs and MDs, so there will only be one match date for both instead of two separate dates as they are now.
 
Will the merger create a future where there are fewer and fewer foreign medical grads practicing in the US? What will this mean for the Caribbean schools and other international/foreign schools that target Americans?
 
Will the merger create a future where there are fewer and fewer foreign medical grads practicing in the US?

Probably, but who knows.

What will this mean for the Caribbean schools and other international/foreign schools that target Americans?

Probably bad things. Don't go to a foreign school if you want to practice in the US and can avoid it.
 
So I know that there are some people talking about an upcoming DO & MD Residency Merger for the next few years. But I've seen some people saying that it's not as all-encompassing as it sounds? I wanted to clarify my understanding of it, and was hoping some folks here would know more, because it would make a huge difference to the way I approached applications next year.

I saw some news releases on this ( http://www.do-online.org/TheDO/?p=115861 , http://pressreleases.kcstar.com/release/messages/31319/ ) - if I'm reading these right, the residencies are slated to join in 2015. Do you know if this is just a theoretical plan or an official decision? And if it is an official decision, will this mean that DOs will be on equal footing for residencies with MDs?

I elected not to apply to DO schools this past cycle because I intend to be a pathologist, and DO pathology residencies are all but nonexistent. Applying to MD residencies as a DO would be very difficult, as I understand it. If that issue was moot due to the residencies merging, then that would open up DO schools to me again. But I hesitate to apply if it's only a theoretical plan rather than a decision that has a timeline on it, as I know theoretical plans may fall through. If you know either way, that would be incredibly helpful.
Path is so noncompetitive that you can match to even the top MD programs as a DO :laugh: Not applying DO was a bad move dude
 
As I understand it this time line is for real. The real question is will there still be a biased in some programs. Just because it is all one match doesn't mean programs need to rank DO's. However, most of my colleagues had no trouble matching into the specialty of their choice and I don't see that changing.

Survivor DO

With the rapid expansion of DO schools, I do not think the merger will have much positive impact, already its not too hard for DOs to get into non-competitive MD residencies. The more competitive ones will continue to be as difficult or even more difficult, recently nearly 5 percent of MD graduates did not match, which is unprecedented.

In many ways the DO profession has moved forward and backward at the same time. I think we have gotten more acceptance from the mainstream medical community, but the unchecked expansion of new schools is going to set us back.

For years the mission of most DO schools was to create primary care physicians for underserved communities. In recent years DOs have found themselves in academic centers of research and in specialty fields as well. I think in the long run we may just continue to serve mostly as primary care physicians.
 
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With the rapid expansion of DO schools, I do not think the merger will have much positive impact, already its not too hard for DOs to get into non-competitive MD residencies. The more competitive ones will continue to be as difficult or even more difficult, recently nearly 5 percent of MD graduates did not match, which is unprecedented...

Wow. This is just wildly inaccurate. Actually last year's match rate for US MD seniors was one of the highest. To quote the NRMP in regards to US MD senior match rates:

"The PGY-1 match rate for U.S. seniors was 94.4 percent, up from 93.7 percent in 2013 but lower than the 2012 all-time high of 95.1 percent. Historically, the match rate for U.S. seniors is 92-94 percent." -2014 NRMP Match Data Report

4.9% of US MD seniors not matching is actually the lowest its ever been. So, I guess you're right, in that it is rare, practically unprecedented, for the non-matching rate to be that low. Normally its in the 6-8% range (5.6% last year).
 
Wow. This is just wildly inaccurate. Actually last year's match rate for US MD seniors was one of the highest. To quote the NRMP in regards to US MD senior match rates:

"The PGY-1 match rate for U.S. seniors was 94.4 percent, up from 93.7 percent in 2013 but lower than the 2012 all-time high of 95.1 percent. Historically, the match rate for U.S. seniors is 92-94 percent." -2014 NRMP Match Data Report

4.9% of US MD seniors not matching is actually the lowest its ever been. So, I guess you're right, in that it is rare, practically unprecedented, for the non-matching rate to be that low. Normally its in the 6-8% range (5.6% last year).

Regardless the MD schools have a higher match rate into Allopathic postgrad training than DO schools. Most of the better DO programs are around 70-75 percent, there are some schools where the number is lower and large number of students go to AOA training programs.
 
Regardless the MD schools have a higher match rate into Allopathic postgrad training than DO schools. Most of the better DO programs are around 70-75 percent, there are some schools where the number is lower and large number of students go to AOA training programs.

Are we talking just ACGME match? Because I know of two schools that had a 100% match rate for 2014.
 
Are we talking just ACGME match? Because I know of two schools that had a 100% match rate for 2014.

I am talking about the ACGME match rate. DOs tend to average around 70 to 75 percent. Some schools have a higher percent match into AOA programs.

Even with the merger I think it will be a while before there is some kind of quality control placed on AOA programs so that the training that DOs get in those programs is of the same quality as those in ACGME programs.
 
Do those who don't match scramble into ACGME? Sorry if this question comes off ignorant. I'm a bit confused.

No reason to be sorry.

The AOA match is in February and the acgme match is in March. If someone applied to programs in both the AOA and acgme match, but failed to match in the AOA match they have the option to 1) scramble into an AOA position or 2) wait for the acgme match. If they then fail to match in the acgme match then they can either scramble into any available AOA spot or SOAP into an acgme spot.
 
No reason to be sorry.

The AOA match is in February and the acgme match is in March. If someone applied to programs in both the AOA and acgme match, but failed to match in the AOA match they have the option to 1) scramble into an AOA position or 2) wait for the acgme match. If they then fail to match in the acgme match then they can either scramble into any available AOA spot or SOAP into an acgme spot.

Hmm, so I'm assuming by the time I graduate in 2019 that the majority of AOA programs will then be ACGME programs. But doing some research it seems the AMA has said the the NRMP will not be involved in the program merger...but since most (hopeful) AOA programs will become ACGME, do DO grads need to still apply in two separate matches?

Thank you for taking some time to explain this too!
 
I am talking about the ACGME match rate. DOs tend to average around 70 to 75 percent. Some schools have a higher percent match into AOA programs.

Even with the merger I think it will be a while before there is some kind of quality control placed on AOA programs so that the training that DOs get in those programs is of the same quality
as those in ACGME programs.
so you think that even after full ACGME accreditation is complete (2020), it will still be some time before there is solid quality control of these former AOA programs?
 
Hmm, so I'm assuming by the time I graduate in 2019 that the majority of AOA programs will then be ACGME programs. But doing some research it seems the AMA has said the the NRMP will not be involved in the program merger...but since most (hopeful) AOA programs will become ACGME, do DO grads need to still apply in two separate matches?

Thank you for taking some time to explain this too!

There should be only one match at some point. When will that happen? 2020? I don't know. It might never happen.
 
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Regardless the MD schools have a higher match rate into Allopathic postgrad training than DO schools. Most of the better DO programs are around 70-75 percent, there are some schools where the number is lower and large number of students go to AOA training programs.

Again, not entirely accurate. Look at the NRMP match. DO match rate in ACGME has consistently increased for years, even with MD and DO expansion. Last year it was 77.7%. That was the highest it has ever been. The year before it was ~75%, which was also an all-time high.

Also, not everyone settles AOA because they can't match ACGME, actually as you know, the timeline is not conducive to that (the AOA match is 1st, so anyone who matches is pulled out of the ACGME match).

Now, of course MD match rate has always been high, but we have almost no way of knowing what the real DO match rate (ACGME and AOA) has been. There are lots of factors that come into play. The big one being that many people that apply AOA rank only the most competitive programs and use their ACGME applications as backups. In addition, some DOs who don't match AOA also end up not matching ACGME, so they are counted twice as "unmatched". Even with that, the match rate is at least in the high 70s (77.7% ACGME and 77.5% AOA) and could be as high as 89% overall. This is an across the board average for DOs, not just at the "better DO programs".

Are we talking just ACGME match? Because I know of two schools that had a 100% match rate for 2014.

No school, even MD schools have a consistently 100% match rate. You are confusing GME match rate and GME placement rate. Most schools have placement rates in the 98-100% range for its graduates.

Do those who don't match scramble into ACGME? Sorry if this question comes off ignorant. I'm a bit confused.

There is no ACGME scramble. The way it works is that DOs do one of 3 things:

(1) They apply strictly AOA. They apply in the fall of their 4th year to only AOA programs. They interview at some of those programs. Then they rank those programs. Anyone who doesn't have glaring deficits/redflags in their app (failing a board, repeating a year, etc.) shouldn't have a problem matching if they apply to reasonable programs and have backups (i.e. don't apply only NS if you have a 400 COMLEX and no research in the field). For those that fail to match, they can scramble AOA.

(2) They apply strictly ACGME. They do not apply to any AOA programs and as a result are the non-participants listed in the Natmatch data. As you can see from cliquesh's link the range of DOs in this group varies a lot by schools and can be anywhere from 20.9% of the class to 72.1% of the class, and the average is 46.5% of classes. If they fail to match ACGME, they can SOAP (a series of mini matches that follow the NRMP match) or they can scramble into whatever few spots are leftover on the AOA side after the Natmatch and scramble.

(3) They apply both AOA and ACGME. This is done by a decent number of people for lots of reasons. One of them being that they could apply competitive AOA and less competitive ACGME as a backup. Another is just a way to increase their chances, especially if they are less competitive. Don't forget that there are a ton more ACGME spots than AOA spots. Anyways, these people apply to both in the fall, they see what kind of interviews they get, then they rank AOA. If they match AOA, they are pulled out of the ACGME match. If they don't, they rank ACGME programs (the deadline and match is later). If they match, they're done. If they fail to match a second time, they can SOAP or they can scramble whatever is left on the AOA side.

As you can see, because there is some level of overlap, it's impossible to calculate exactly what the DO match rate is. If it were one match, it would be easier, but it isn't. As I said above, a straight calculation is likely an underestimate because certainly some (if not many) of the DOs that don't match AOA will also not match ACGME, so they are counted as not matching twice.

On top of that, Osteo grads are not separated from Osteo seniors in either match, so that confounds things more. As you can see, MD grads have NRMP match rates in the 60s, so it's possible the DO seniors match rate is actually a bit higher.

Even with this, a straight calculation of the match rate still comes out in the high 70s, based on just the numbers of DOs that match out of the total number of eligible DOs (from the AOA numbers - unfortunately there's no way to know how many DO grads applied only ACGME, but hopefully the number is small enough not to change things much - don't forget also that DO grads applying for an ACGME PGY2 position after a TRI aren't counted as "matched" by the NRMP anyways).

Total no. of eligible grads for 2014 = 5645 (from AOA data)
Total no. that matched AOA = 2341 (from AOA match)
Total no. that matched ACGME = 2127 (from NRMP match)
So, overall DO match rate is at least = 4468 / 5645 * (100%) = 79.15%
 
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Again, not entirely accurate. Look at the NRMP match. DO match rate in ACGME has consistently increased for years, even with MD and DO expansion. Last year it was 77.7%. That was the highest it has ever been. The year before it was ~75%, which was also an all-time high.

Also, not everyone settles AOA because they can't match ACGME, actually as you know, the timeline is not conducive to that (the AOA match is 1st, so anyone who matches is pulled out of the ACGME match).

Now, of course MD match rate has always been high, but we have almost no way of knowing what the real DO match rate (ACGME and AOA) has been. There are lots of factors that come into play. The big one being that many people that apply AOA rank only the most competitive programs and use their ACGME applications as backups. In addition, some DOs who don't match AOA also end up not matching ACGME, so they are counted twice as "unmatched". Even with that, the match rate is at least in the high 70s (77.7% ACGME and 77.5% AOA) and could be as high as 89% overall. This is an across the board average for DOs, not just at the "better DO programs".



No school, even MD schools have a consistently 100% match rate. You are confusing GME match rate and GME placement rate. Most schools have placement rates in the 98-100% range for its graduates.



There is no ACGME scramble. The way it works is that DOs do one of 3 things:

(1) They apply strictly AOA. They apply in the fall of their 4th year to only AOA programs. They interview at some of those programs. Then they rank those programs. Anyone who doesn't have glaring deficits/redflags in their app (failing a board, repeating a year, etc.) shouldn't have a problem matching if they apply to reasonable programs and have backups (i.e. don't apply only NS if you have a 400 COMLEX and no research in the field). For those that fail to match, they can scramble AOA.

(2) They apply strictly ACGME. They do not apply to any AOA programs and as a result are the non-participants listed in the Natmatch data. As you can see from cliquesh's link the range of DOs in this group varies a lot by schools and can be anywhere from 20.9% of the class to 72.1% of the class, and the average is 46.5% of classes. If they fail to match ACGME, they can SOAP (a series of mini matches that follow the NRMP match) or they can scramble into whatever few spots are leftover on the AOA side after the Natmatch and scramble.

(3) They apply both AOA and ACGME. This is done by a decent number of people for lots of reasons. One of them being that they could apply competitive AOA and less competitive ACGME as a backup. Another is just a way to increase their chances, especially if they are less competitive. Don't forget that there are a ton more ACGME spots than AOA spots. Anyways, these people apply to both in the fall, they see what kind of interviews they get, then they rank AOA. If they match AOA, they are pulled out of the ACGME match. If they don't, they rank ACGME programs (the deadline and match is later). If they match, they're done. If they fail to match a second time, they can SOAP or they can scramble whatever is left on the AOA side.

As you can see, because there is some level of overlap, it's impossible to calculate exactly what the DO match rate is. If it were one match, it would be easier, but it isn't. As I said above, a straight calculation is likely an underestimate because certainly some (if not many) of the DOs that don't match AOA will also not match ACGME, so they are counted as not matching twice.

On top of that, Osteo grads are not separated from Osteo seniors in either match, so that confounds things more. As you can see, MD grads have NRMP match rates in the 60s, so it's possible the DO seniors match rate is actually a bit higher.

Even with this, a straight calculation of the match rate still comes out in the high 70s, based on just the numbers of DOs that match out of the total number of eligible DOs (from the AOA numbers - unfortunately there's no way to know how many DO grads applied only ACGME, but hopefully the number is small enough not to change things much - don't forget also that DO grads applying for an ACGME PGY2 position after a TRI aren't counted as "matched" by the NRMP anyways).

Total no. of eligible grads for 2014 = 5645 (from AOA data)
Total no. that matched AOA = 2341 (from AOA match)
Total no. that matched ACGME = 2127 (from NRMP match)
So, overall DO match rate is at least = 4468 / 5645 * (100%) = 79.15%
That value is from 2011. In 2014, 2738 DOs matched ACGME, which would drastically change the overall DO match rate to a minimum of 90%.
 
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Again, not entirely accurate. Look at the NRMP match. DO match rate in ACGME has consistently increased for years, even with MD and DO expansion. Last year it was 77.7%. That was the highest it has ever been. The year before it was ~75%, which was also an all-time high.

Also, not everyone settles AOA because they can't match ACGME, actually as you know, the timeline is not conducive to that (the AOA match is 1st, so anyone who matches is pulled out of the ACGME match).

Now, of course MD match rate has always been high, but we have almost no way of knowing what the real DO match rate (ACGME and AOA) has been. There are lots of factors that come into play. The big one being that many people that apply AOA rank only the most competitive programs and use their ACGME applications as backups. In addition, some DOs who don't match AOA also end up not matching ACGME, so they are counted twice as "unmatched". Even with that, the match rate is at least in the high 70s (77.7% ACGME and 77.5% AOA) and could be as high as 89% overall. This is an across the board average for DOs, not just at the "better DO programs".



No school, even MD schools have a consistently 100% match rate. You are confusing GME match rate and GME placement rate. Most schools have placement rates in the 98-100% range for its graduates.



There is no ACGME scramble. The way it works is that DOs do one of 3 things:

(1) They apply strictly AOA. They apply in the fall of their 4th year to only AOA programs. They interview at some of those programs. Then they rank those programs. Anyone who doesn't have glaring deficits/redflags in their app (failing a board, repeating a year, etc.) shouldn't have a problem matching if they apply to reasonable programs and have backups (i.e. don't apply only NS if you have a 400 COMLEX and no research in the field). For those that fail to match, they can scramble AOA.

(2) They apply strictly ACGME. They do not apply to any AOA programs and as a result are the non-participants listed in the Natmatch data. As you can see from cliquesh's link the range of DOs in this group varies a lot by schools and can be anywhere from 20.9% of the class to 72.1% of the class, and the average is 46.5% of classes. If they fail to match ACGME, they can SOAP (a series of mini matches that follow the NRMP match) or they can scramble into whatever few spots are leftover on the AOA side after the Natmatch and scramble.

(3) They apply both AOA and ACGME. This is done by a decent number of people for lots of reasons. One of them being that they could apply competitive AOA and less competitive ACGME as a backup. Another is just a way to increase their chances, especially if they are less competitive. Don't forget that there are a ton more ACGME spots than AOA spots. Anyways, these people apply to both in the fall, they see what kind of interviews they get, then they rank AOA. If they match AOA, they are pulled out of the ACGME match. If they don't, they rank ACGME programs (the deadline and match is later). If they match, they're done. If they fail to match a second time, they can SOAP or they can scramble whatever is left on the AOA side.

As you can see, because there is some level of overlap, it's impossible to calculate exactly what the DO match rate is. If it were one match, it would be easier, but it isn't. As I said above, a straight calculation is likely an underestimate because certainly some (if not many) of the DOs that don't match AOA will also not match ACGME, so they are counted as not matching twice.

On top of that, Osteo grads are not separated from Osteo seniors in either match, so that confounds things more. As you can see, MD grads have NRMP match rates in the 60s, so it's possible the DO seniors match rate is actually a bit higher.

Even with this, a straight calculation of the match rate still comes out in the high 70s, based on just the numbers of DOs that match out of the total number of eligible DOs (from the AOA numbers - unfortunately there's no way to know how many DO grads applied only ACGME, but hopefully the number is small enough not to change things much - don't forget also that DO grads applying for an ACGME PGY2 position after a TRI aren't counted as "matched" by the NRMP anyways).

Total no. of eligible grads for 2014 = 5645 (from AOA data)
Total no. that matched AOA = 2341 (from AOA match)
Total no. that matched ACGME = 2127 (from NRMP match)
So, overall DO match rate is at least = 4468 / 5645 * (100%) = 79.15%

If you really scrutinize the numbers you will notice at most Allopathic schools the majority of students enter specialty residencies. At DO schools its predominantly primary care across the board. Its not incredibly difficult to match into FM, IM, and other PCP fields because there are more openings than applicants.

If I want to do Orthopedics at major research program, like Harvard or Columbia, I would have better chances getting hit by lightning, or even winning the Powerball lottery.

There are some DOs at major research programs who do match, but the fields are usually something like FM or PMR, or Psychiatry, these tend to be fields that the best MD students look down upon.
 
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If you really scrutinize the numbers you will notice at most Allopathic schools the majority of students enter specialty residencies. At DO schools its predominantly primary care across the board. Its not incredibly difficult to match into FM, IM, and other PCP fields because there are more openings than applicants.

If I want to do Orthopedics at major research program, like Harvard or Columbia, I would have better chances getting hit by lightning, or even winning the Powerball lottery.

There are some DOs at major research programs who do match, but the fields are usually something like FM or PMR, or Psychiatry, these tend to be fields that the best MD students look down upon.

First off, no one here is saying that MDs don't match "better" than DOs, so your little distraction is pointless.

No one is saying it's easy for DOs to match ACGME Ortho, but that wasn't your argument. Your argument was that at best 70% of DOs match, and most are forced into undesirable AOA programs because they fail to match ACGME. I've demonstrated, with actual numbers and info as opposed to opinion, that both points are factually inaccurate.

Second, for other's sake, I'll actually address your new point. Stop looking at top 20 MD programs. No one is comparing them to ANY DO programs. Chances are people considering DO aren't deciding between Harvard, Columbia, and UNECOM.

Now if you would kindly direct your attention to match lists from the low/no-tier MD schools, you'll see a variety that match anywhere from 30-60% of their classes into PC programs. If you look at DO schools, for the most part you'll see a similar picture (~35-65% going PC). We honestly have no way to know how much of this is self-selection, regional selectivity due to location of schools/programs and how much is due to lack of availability due to competitiveness.

I'm sure all 3 come into play. Beyond that, I don't plan on speculating further, and it doesn't really matter, because as I've already said, MDs obviously match better in ACGME programs than DOs. That was never the argument.

Also, I'd recommend to everyone, to stop worrying about what programs are "looked down upon" by others, and start focusing on what you want, whether its looked down upon or not. You'll be happier.

There will always be people looking down upon you for one reason or another. DO, but not MD? MD, but not top 50? Top 50, but not top 20? Top 20, but not top 5? IM, but not Rads? Rads, but not Ortho? Its all meaningless. The less you care about what others think about you, the more you'll be able to focus on what you want. Those DOs at top academic centers and in top programs didn't spend their time worrying about how MDs would view them. They spent their time looking at what their degree could give them, not what it limited them to.
 
First off, no one here is saying that MDs don't match "better" than DOs, so your little distraction is pointless.

No one is saying it's easy for DOs to match ACGME Ortho, but that wasn't your argument. Your argument was that at best 70% of DOs match, and most are forced into undesirable AOA programs because they fail to match ACGME. I've demonstrated, with actual numbers and info as opposed to opinion, that both points are factually inaccurate.

Second, for other's sake, I'll actually address your new point. Stop looking at top 20 MD programs. No one is comparing them to ANY DO programs. Chances are people considering DO aren't deciding between Harvard, Columbia, and UNECOM.

Now if you would kindly direct your attention to match lists from the low/no-tier MD schools, you'll see a variety that match anywhere from 30-60% of their classes into PC programs. If you look at DO schools, for the most part you'll see a similar picture (~35-65% going PC). We honestly have no way to know how much of this is self-selection, regional selectivity due to location of schools/programs and how much is due to lack of availability due to competitiveness.

I'm sure all 3 come into play. Beyond that, I don't plan on speculating further, and it doesn't really matter, because as I've already said, MDs obviously match better in ACGME programs than DOs. That was never the argument.

Also, I'd recommend to everyone, to stop worrying about what programs are "looked down upon" by others, and start focusing on what you want, whether its looked down upon or not. You'll be happier.

There will always be people looking down upon you for one reason or another. DO, but not MD? MD, but not top 50? Top 50, but not top 20? Top 20, but not top 5? IM, but not Rads? Rads, but not Ortho? Its all meaningless. The less you care about what others think about you, the more you'll be able to focus on what you want. Those DOs at top academic centers and in top programs didn't spend their time worrying about how MDs would view them. They spent their time looking at what their degree could give them, not what it limited them to.

There are certain residency programs that are highly sought after, Orthopedics is one of them. Also Radiology, Anesthesiology, and Derm.

I pretty much know I stand a much better chance of landing in a residency at an AOA ROAD program than an ACGME one
 
...I pretty much know I stand a much better chance of landing in a residency at an AOA ROAD program than an ACGME one

That is very accurate. One of the reasons is that only DOs (for now) can apply to AOA programs. Again, my argument is not that DOs match just as well as MDs. They don't. Everyone knows that.

That said, you better apply ACGME also. You might get a pleasant surprise. Residency apps is the time to aim for the best programs. By all means, keep lots of backups, but people have a tendency to put more limits on themselves than others do.
 
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So I know that there are some people talking about an upcoming DO & MD Residency Merger for the next few years. But I've seen some people saying that it's not as all-encompassing as it sounds? I wanted to clarify my understanding of it, and was hoping some folks here would know more, because it would make a huge difference to the way I approached applications next year.

I saw some news releases on this ( http://www.do-online.org/TheDO/?p=115861 , http://pressreleases.kcstar.com/release/messages/31319/ ) - if I'm reading these right, the residencies are slated to join in 2015. Do you know if this is just a theoretical plan or an official decision? And if it is an official decision, will this mean that DOs will be on equal footing for residencies with MDs?

I elected not to apply to DO schools this past cycle because I intend to be a pathologist, and DO pathology residencies are all but nonexistent. Applying to MD residencies as a DO would be very difficult, as I understand it. If that issue was moot due to the residencies merging, then that would open up DO schools to me again. But I hesitate to apply if it's only a theoretical plan rather than a decision that has a timeline on it, as I know theoretical plans may fall through. If you know either way, that would be incredibly helpful.
I suggest you real the PATH forums and read about all the pathologists who can't get jobs right now.
 
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There are certain residency programs that are highly sought after, Orthopedics is one of them. Also Radiology, Anesthesiology, and Derm.

I pretty much know I stand a much better chance of landing in a residency at an AOA ROAD program than an ACGME one[\B]

This post… particularly the bolded part… demonstrates that you have no clue what you are taking about.
 
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This post… particularly the bolded part… demonstrates that you have no clue what you are taking about.

MD Radiology is pretty hard to get as a DO. Anesthesiology is doable with high board scores.

It seems difficult to get MD Orthopedics as a DO. I know several friends who applied to AOA specialty programs because they believed their chances of matching would be higher than for an Allopathic program.
 
MD Radiology is pretty hard to get as a DO. Anesthesiology is doable with high board scores.

It seems difficult to get MD Orthopedics as a DO. I know several friends who applied to AOA specialty programs because they believed their chances of matching would be higher than for an Allopathic program.

Neither radiology nor anesthesiology are very hard to match into, as a DO or otherwise
 
MD Radiology is pretty hard to get as a DO. Anesthesiology is doable with high board scores.

It seems difficult to get MD Orthopedics as a DO. I know several friends who applied to AOA specialty programs because they believed their chances of matching would be higher than for an Allopathic program.

You really only need to do average, or slightly above average (230), on the usmle to match anesthesia or radiology as a DO. I had classmates match acgme community radiology with Comlex scores in the 550 range.

If you score in the 240+ you'll get interviews from top anesthesia programs. I'm not sure about radiology, though.
 
You really only need to do average, or slightly above average (230), on the usmle to match anesthesia or radiology as a DO. I had classmates match acgme community radiology with Comlex scores in the 550 range.

If you score in the 240+ you'll get interviews from top anesthesia programs. I'm not sure about radiology, though.

Anesthesia is uncompetitive.

No one would say that IM is competitive yet the average step 1 score for IM- including the hordes of terrible community programs- is higher than anesthesia.

So I would officially like to remove anesthesia from the ROAD specialty list
 
Anesthesia is uncompetitive.

No one would say that IM is competitive yet the average step 1 score for IM- including the hordes of terrible community programs- is higher than anesthesia.

So I would officially like to remove anesthesia from the ROAD specialty list

The road is about life style. Anesthesia is a pretty good lifestyle. 36 hrs a week, 1 weekend call a month for $300k+/year.
 
The road is about life style. Anesthesia is a pretty good lifestyle. 36 hrs a week, 1 weekend call a month for $300k+/year.

Had a question about the hours. Is the 36 hour week for anesthesiologists doing outpatient or is this also true for inpatient? I am surprised it is that low.
 
Anesthesia is uncompetitive.

No one would say that IM is competitive yet the average step 1 score for IM- including the hordes of terrible community programs- is higher than anesthesia.

So I would officially like to remove anesthesia from the ROAD specialty list

If I remember right, you are in a cardiology fellowship. Would you say that the reason for such a high step average for IM is due to those want to match into a competitive fellowship? Usually the better the residency program, the better one's chances at a competitive fellowship.
 
First off, no one here is saying that MDs don't match "better" than DOs, so your little distraction is pointless.

No one is saying it's easy for DOs to match ACGME Ortho, but that wasn't your argument. Your argument was that at best 70% of DOs match, and most are forced into undesirable AOA programs because they fail to match ACGME. I've demonstrated, with actual numbers and info as opposed to opinion, that both points are factually inaccurate.

Second, for other's sake, I'll actually address your new point. Stop looking at top 20 MD programs. No one is comparing them to ANY DO programs. Chances are people considering DO aren't deciding between Harvard, Columbia, and UNECOM.

Now if you would kindly direct your attention to match lists from the low/no-tier MD schools, you'll see a variety that match anywhere from 30-60% of their classes into PC programs. If you look at DO schools, for the most part you'll see a similar picture (~35-65% going PC). We honestly have no way to know how much of this is self-selection, regional selectivity due to location of schools/programs and how much is due to lack of availability due to competitiveness.

I'm sure all 3 come into play. Beyond that, I don't plan on speculating further, and it doesn't really matter, because as I've already said, MDs obviously match better in ACGME programs than DOs. That was never the argument.

Also, I'd recommend to everyone, to stop worrying about what programs are "looked down upon" by others, and start focusing on what you want, whether its looked down upon or not. You'll be happier.

There will always be people looking down upon you for one reason or another. DO, but not MD? MD, but not top 50? Top 50, but not top 20? Top 20, but not top 5? IM, but not Rads? Rads, but not Ortho? Its all meaningless. The less you care about what others think about you, the more you'll be able to focus on what you want. Those DOs at top academic centers and in top programs didn't spend their time worrying about how MDs would view them. They spent their time looking at what their degree could give them, not what it limited them to.
Logic wins again!
 
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Had a question about the hours. Is the 36 hour week for anesthesiologists doing outpatient or is this also true for inpatient? I am surprised it is that low.

Inpatient. You usually work three 12 hour shifts per week. Just doing that pays in the mid $200s. Taking call is what really increases your income and hours per week. Additionally, a fellowship in cardiac, peds, or pain dramatically increases your income.
 
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