Do Not Apply To Rocky Vista
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Do you think there will be a stigma against the students when they are seeking residency positions (even if they score high on the boards)?
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Can one school really 'ruin the profession?' That's kinda morbid ...
I've read a lot about the opposition to RVU, but I'm just curious to know how much of this animosity is directed by those who are simply jumping the bandwagon based on a series of threads from random SDN members. I have had the fortunate experience of speaking with an EM physician who will be teaching at RVU. I am still unsure as to whether or not I will apply, but my stance on the credibility of RVU has been heightened by the valuable insight provided to me by this physician.
I guess my point is that there is no sense in people attempting to persuade other applicants' decisions to apply to RVU or not. If you don't want to apply, then don't. Basically – mind your own business. If someone else wants to apply, more power to him/her for reaching that decision in the pursuit of his/her goal. It would be a shame to make an assumption about a school before it even opens, and projecting such a negative reputation on the school now can only hinder its ability to be respected.
That is, if RVU does indeed gain provisional accreditation and succeeds in graduating decent physicians, then later gains full accreditation…how poorly will it reflect on the D.O. profession that its own physicians will not support the education and mission of a successful D.O. school? Understandably, if RVU fails to succeed then the opportunity to voice your opposition will arise. Until then, what are you truly worried about? Do you honestly believe one brand new school can damage the reputation of an established practice?
I read the emphasis that people place on the fact that RVU is owned by the investors of the American University of the Caribbean, but let's be honest – physicians graduate from Caribbean schools every year, gain residency in U.S. programs, and go on to become successful and well-respected physicians. The doctor I shadow has a friend from college that graduated from SGU and is now the Chief of EM. My advice is to research the school thoroughly and get more information from reliable sources, speak with the administrators when the opportunity becomes available, and then make a decision. This will be my eventual plan of action.
In the meantime, here is the link to a Letter to the Editor from InsideOME. Below that is the reply from the President of AACOM: http://www.aacom.org/insideome/2007-05-May.asp#item12.1. The best thing you can do is be informed.
I guess my point is that there is no sense in people attempting to persuade other applicants' decisions to apply to RVU or not. If you don't want to apply, then don't. Basically – mind your own business. If someone else wants to apply, more power to him/her for reaching that decision in the pursuit of his/her goal. It would be a shame to make an assumption about a school before it even opens, and projecting such a negative reputation on the school now can only hinder its ability to be respected.
That is, if RVU does indeed gain provisional accreditation and succeeds in graduating decent physicians, then later gains full accreditation…how poorly will it reflect on the D.O. profession that its own physicians will not support the education and mission of a successful D.O. school? Understandably, if RVU fails to succeed then the opportunity to voice your opposition will arise. Until then, what are you truly worried about? Do you honestly believe one brand new school can damage the reputation of an established practice?
I read the emphasis that people place on the fact that RVU is owned by the investors of the American University of the Caribbean, but let's be honest – physicians graduate from Caribbean schools every year, gain residency in U.S. programs, and go on to become successful and well-respected physicians. The doctor I shadow has a friend from college that graduated from SGU and is now the Chief of EM. My advice is to research the school thoroughly and get more information from reliable sources, speak with the administrators when the opportunity becomes available, and then make a decision. This will be my eventual plan of action.
In the meantime, here is the link to a Letter to the Editor from InsideOME. Below that is the reply from the President of AACOM: http://www.aacom.org/insideome/2007-05-May.asp#item12.1. The best thing you can do is be informed.
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Ah, fearmongering........gotta love it. 
I applied.
..:insert stigma here:..
..:insert stigma here:..
I generally applaud anyone who has convictions and sticks to them...yet, your warnings are beginning to sound more like the homless guy who stands on the corner with the sign that says, "Repent! the end is near." Your posts might just be doing your cause more harm than good now because they are tending toward zealotry. It's one thing to state your reasons for being opposed to a school based on your convictions; it's another to call out your potential peers like that.
How? Rocky Vista is in pre-accrediitation and not permitted to accept applications. Being a little liberal with the truth, aren't you?
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DO Anes
I suggest you make a concise list of the most influential arguments of your cause.
I have a read some good ones that are very persuasive and explain beyond emotional appeals the disadvantages of accrediting this for-profit school. Unfortunately, they are scattered throughout various posts. If you could post them, as someone who posts the 10 commandments, I think it would be very helpful.
Personally, at first, it was hard to see the potential threat this school represents (residency spots, more schools like these to come without responsible growth, etc etc), however, with a concise list, I think more people could understand the opposition you call for.
I agree with Medhacker, that would be very good. I also think it would be very good if someone would elaborate on the Flexnor (sp?) report and how history tends to repeat itself and how they ended up closing all the for-profit schools not too long ago. I think a lot of people do not really know the history on this.
To me, it's like all these interest only loans that have been introduced over the last few years and all of these little banks are having troubles because people can't make their payments. Well, if the banks had just looked back about 70 years, they would have realized America already made this mistake and interest only loans were a contributing factor to the Great Depression.
For-profit medical schools have already been tried and have been determined to be bad for America. Why do we have to go through this again?
To me, it's like all these interest only loans that have been introduced over the last few years and all of these little banks are having troubles because people can't make their payments. Well, if the banks had just looked back about 70 years, they would have realized America already made this mistake and interest only loans were a contributing factor to the Great Depression.
For-profit medical schools have already been tried and have been determined to be bad for America. Why do we have to go through this again?
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First, realize that I am not arguing for a "for-profit" school. I'm generally opposed to the idea...but I don't think the Flexner Report argument holds any water at all. Yes, the "for-profit" schools were closed over a series of years after the report, but it wasn't simply because they made money. A typical "proprietary" school was run by a doctor (or several), awarded a degree after two years, and didn't require laboratory work or dissection. They were closed because they gave a crappy education-- not just because they were "for-profit."
The Flexner Report argued for a standardized, specific model of education that is pretty much still in use today. If RVU receives accredidation, then it is satisfying the current model for medical education with which COCA approves all osteopathic schools.
If you want to argue against it, I suggest that you find another reason for it. There are tons of good doctors coming out of "for-profit" schools in the Carribean every day.
OK, Hell has froze over. I agree 110% with MedHacker.
Well said.Here's an article that ran in the business section of the Rocky Mountain News about RVU.
http://www.rockymountainnews.com/drmn/health_care/article/0,2808,DRMN_25396_5439218,00.html
Let's see:
- projected tuition for out-of-state = $38000 (OOS tuition at U. of Colorado Med School = $48000). 10% discount offered by RVU to Colorado residents.
- According to the article: "Rocky Vista intends to recruit students from rural areas and send them to residency programs in underserved areas such as Trinidad and Pueblo. In Colorado, 26 counties in the state have one or no primary care physicians."
Yes, darn greedy for-profit school! All they want is to suck money out of applicants! Grrr....😡 (yes, this is sarcasm)
(Yes, I also noticed that the article refers to the degree as "O.D.")
http://www.rockymountainnews.com/drmn/health_care/article/0,2808,DRMN_25396_5439218,00.html
Let's see:
- projected tuition for out-of-state = $38000 (OOS tuition at U. of Colorado Med School = $48000). 10% discount offered by RVU to Colorado residents.
- According to the article: "Rocky Vista intends to recruit students from rural areas and send them to residency programs in underserved areas such as Trinidad and Pueblo. In Colorado, 26 counties in the state have one or no primary care physicians."
Yes, darn greedy for-profit school! All they want is to suck money out of applicants! Grrr....😡 (yes, this is sarcasm)
(Yes, I also noticed that the article refers to the degree as "O.D.")
OK, Hell has froze over. I agree 110% with MedHacker.
It has happened before [look here ]
On the third one I am inviting you to dinner, my treat 😎
Although RVU will 'technically' hold up to standards in order to be accredited, I believe there is the risk that a for-profit school may become a diploma-mill of sorts and we will again be faced with the same issues that plagued the for-profit schools in the early 1900's, the ones which were addressed by Flexner in his report and which he recommended to do away with. I do not think that my argument is that off base and maybe I didn't draw out the assumptions which basically lead to DO Anes assumptions.
Personally, I'm not nearly as enraged about the school as others on these boards. I won't apply to it bc I don't want to be associated with that but I'm just the type of person who tries to learn from history rather than assume we are so much smarter than we were a few generations ago. That's the only point I was trying to make.
I would rather not comment on the Caribbean bc I have personally known people who came from those schools and could not pass Step I for the life of them and ended up $200,000+ in debt and have heard this is a fairly common phenomenon. I am not so sure they aren't the very diploma mill type of organization I am talking about but at least they are associated with MD and not DO degrees.
Personally, I'm not nearly as enraged about the school as others on these boards. I won't apply to it bc I don't want to be associated with that but I'm just the type of person who tries to learn from history rather than assume we are so much smarter than we were a few generations ago. That's the only point I was trying to make.
I would rather not comment on the Caribbean bc I have personally known people who came from those schools and could not pass Step I for the life of them and ended up $200,000+ in debt and have heard this is a fairly common phenomenon. I am not so sure they aren't the very diploma mill type of organization I am talking about but at least they are associated with MD and not DO degrees.
I knew there was a reason I enjoyed seeing you post on here. This reminds me why. 👍
*cautious* OK......sounds like a trap though.
How much do you know about the Flexner Report? The accredidation process takes into account those problems, and RVU isn't in danger of doing something that would cause it to lose accredidation. And, for the record, the only reason that Flexner was against "for-profit" med schools was that in order to meet the standards he recommended, they would need to charge too much to their students in tuition. He thought that all med schools should be attached to universities because it would be cheaper.
But, maybe we should discuss some of the problems it also caused. The standards of the Flexnor report descriminated against women and minorities and made it virtually impossible for anyone but upper-class white males to become doctors. It took away medical care from the minorities, rural citizens and the poor as well.
While indeed society has ultimately benefited from the Report, as it has standardized American medical school pedagogy, you can't truly use this as an argument in this case.
I do not really understand why you are questioning my knowledge of the Flexner report and, for the record, I already knew everything that you stated about it. I am not challenging you or your opinions and I would really rather not argue. If you would really like to know, I like reading historical books on the practice of medicine and no, I have not actually read the Flexner report.
Taken from :
http://jama.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/full/291/17/2139
For decades, physicians had promoted medical education reform as a means to increase professional status. Flexner's unique contribution was to promote educational reform as a public health measure. He argued that the business ethic that governed proprietary medical schools was incompatible with the progressive academic values necessary for socially useful medical education. "Such exploitation of medical education," Flexner declared, "is strangely inconsistent with the social aspects of medical practice. The overwhelming importance of preventive medicine, sanitation, and public health indicates that in modern life the medical profession is an organ differentiated by society for its highest purposes, not a business to be exploited."1 He maintained that the state government is the proper instrument for regulating medical education, because social welfare is inextricably linked to the quality of the nation's physicians: "The right of the state to deal with the entire subject in its own interest can assuredly not be gainsaid. The physician is a social instrument."1
1 Flexner A. Medical Education in the United States and Canada. New York, NY: Carnegie Foundation for the Advancement of Teaching; 1910.
Yes, I understand that there were certain problems associated with the reform and I am not so sure they have been altogether fixed to date. I think all of society is dealing with inequities and if tuition rises even more for medical school, as it has been, we will be dealing with this issues tenfold. And, yes, I still stand by my original argument.
Taken from :
http://jama.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/full/291/17/2139
For decades, physicians had promoted medical education reform as a means to increase professional status. Flexner's unique contribution was to promote educational reform as a public health measure. He argued that the business ethic that governed proprietary medical schools was incompatible with the progressive academic values necessary for socially useful medical education. "Such exploitation of medical education," Flexner declared, "is strangely inconsistent with the social aspects of medical practice. The overwhelming importance of preventive medicine, sanitation, and public health indicates that in modern life the medical profession is an organ differentiated by society for its highest purposes, not a business to be exploited."1 He maintained that the state government is the proper instrument for regulating medical education, because social welfare is inextricably linked to the quality of the nation's physicians: "The right of the state to deal with the entire subject in its own interest can assuredly not be gainsaid. The physician is a social instrument."1
1 Flexner A. Medical Education in the United States and Canada. New York, NY: Carnegie Foundation for the Advancement of Teaching; 1910.
Yes, I understand that there were certain problems associated with the reform and I am not so sure they have been altogether fixed to date. I think all of society is dealing with inequities and if tuition rises even more for medical school, as it has been, we will be dealing with this issues tenfold. And, yes, I still stand by my original argument.
Wow, I thought I was good at being inconspicuous but I tend to look foward to your posting too. 😛
If you are referring to me, I wasn't questioning anyone's knowledge. It was written by the man leading the charge against RVC, George Mychaskiw II DO, and I thought others would enjoy reading his well written editorial. And if you noticed at the bottom of the page, his thoughts and concerns are thoroughly researched (not just from Flexner)
I'm not one to base my thoughts on a report from 1910, but I believe some aspects of Flexner's work still holds true today. Even if there wasn't this type of history of diploma mills and for-profit medical schools, I would bet there would be plenty of people saying, "We shouldn't start this precedent!", let alone repeat it.
I'm not trying to argue with you; rather, I am trying to stimulate a conversation based on your conclusions. It can be very dangerous to base conclusions on an original document that you have not read in entirety. When I worked for the Writing Center at my alma mater, it was incredibly hard to convince people not to use someone else's opinion of what is in a document when you have the original available.
IMO, "for-profit" schools shouldn't be approved, but the Flexner Report doesn't actually say that in the way most people seem to think. Your own highlighted quote is really someone else's opinion on what the report was saying.
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For the record, I am well-informed and, unlike you, not making hasty and pretentious statements based on my emotional uprising about the situation. And no, I'm not kidding about minding your own business when it comes to other applicants' decisions to apply to RVU. I didn't say not to voice your opinion, but for you to say "Don't apply" is not an opinion, but rather a groundless statement that lacks any basis of concrete reasoning (i.e. your opinion). And honestly, what is a 2nd year D.O. student doing posting on Pre-Osteopathic threads anyhow? Is there nothing better to do with your time?
Also, if you're careful to read my comments you'll consider that I've neither made a case for nor against RVU. I just believe that a lot of words have been thrown around regarding the school and no one, as far as I can tell, is truly in a position to trust those words (or hand them out for that matter). Honestly, I have the same concerns as everyone else regarding RVU, but as I stated, I will make an informed decision at an appropriate time and with the proper resources.
That really is the best way to look at things, IMO. This is obviously a very controversial and it has the potential to develop into a war if folks aren't careful. I really do like hearing other people's opinions on things, and I often enjoy a good debate as well. But I do get a little on edge when I see these "Don't go to xxxx school!" threads because that seems a little too condescending to me. People have the right to make their own choices. Argue your side if you must (I usually will 🙂), but stating your opinion and telling others what to do, or not to do, is extreme.
Why don't we go back to the posts from earlier and have a rational listing of the problems and reasons why they might be bad for the futre of osteopathic medicine? That, I'd like to see and discuss.
This type of a comment can appear very imflammatory even if that was not your intent. I usually try to avoid these types of statements for that reason.
However, if you are just trying to stimulate conversation, I will have to get back to you bc now I have to read the damn thing!!
This type of a comment can appear very imflammatory even if that was not your intent. I usually try to avoid these types of statements for that reason.
However, if you are just trying to stimulate conversation, I will have to get back to you bc now I have to read the damn thing!!
OR...MAYBE it means you're a Colorado resident with a family you'd rather not uproot every couple years. As a resident of Colorado, i have ONE in-state option, and it's a reach for most applicants.
i don't care if you're of the mythical Medical Student race of gods. You're still a tool.
This type of a comment can appear very imflammatory even if that was not your intent....However, if you are just trying to stimulate conversation, I will have to get back to you bc now I have to read the damn thing!!
I apologise if it sounded that way. I tend to ask a lot of questions to clarify things and sometimes I tend to get a little bit "teachy" because in addition to going to medical school during the day, I also teach anatomy and physiology at a nursing school at night. A lot of my lectures start out with a "how much do you know about xxxxxx?" question because I have a very diversified group of students. Sometimes I forget I'm not in class-- maybe just old age settling in...LOL. If nothing else, I'm really opinionated 😀.
Investor interests may come into play as well. And I don't think that the "whole" stigma is based on Flexner. Many think that new osteopathic schools are appearing at an uncontrolled pace, and this was just too much to handle at once.
I believe that if the only issue was the for-profit status, it wouldn't be as big of a deal. But since the school was started by the same man that runs a caribbean school and is a real estate investor, you really begin to question his motives. The stigma of coming from a caribbean MD school is pretty high, even if it is unwarranted, and now we'll have a DO school with that same unsavory relationship of money/profits/business/medicine.
I think the AOA/COCA needs to err on the side of caution. I do not believe we should have the "wait and see" attitude. In this case, I see the possible negatives far out-weighing any benefit. My 2 cents.
apnea said:
Thank you for saying that, I was thinking it but I have to watch saying such things to avoid being banned.
I find this difficult to believe. Premeds base their decisions off of brochures and pamphlets all the time.
Consider this -- an applicant will be showered with application propaganda from RVU... saying how brand new their facilities are -- how amazing the staff is that they've procured. Then they will throw in benefits for in-staters. If I am a native Colorado resident, these are going to sound amazing and suddenly "for-profit" warnings are filed prompty in the back of my mind with global warming and Al Qaeda.
You are selfish and self-righteous -- a pretty crappy combination, IMHO. The fact is that it's going to take someone willing to be loud and fervent to get something done about this. You are on an optionally anonymous thread... It is completely appropriate for someone to call you out for what they perceive is a shortfall in your logic and/or your decision-making process.
The fact that you took offense so easily seems to indicate that you are sensitive about the decisions you make.
get a job at a for profit hospital, win win in that case
Telling a few people on SDN not to apply will not do anything to stop the school from opening. There will always be people who did not get into any other school and knowing that few people are applying to RV, will apply themselves b/c they are desperate.
We definitely know that about you.
Easy for you to say, youre already in school.
So now you want people who are using DO schools as a backup to NOT apply to the "backup DO schools"
🙄
Good luck RVU Class of 2013!
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i'm so confused... am I disagreeing with JP? Ut oh...
What the hell do you care where i go to school anyway? If you feel so shaky in your conviction that a DO school is where you belong, that's your problem. If you're honestly so concerned that the profession of osteopathic medicine doesn't have a strong enough foundation to tolerate ONE less-than-ideal school, why are you here?
Honestly, whatever. I'm not here to argue. To each his/her own. People who know me would disagree with you, so take that for what it's worth. No offense and none taken. Believe it or not, I'm beyond your judgment.
Considering that will put even in state applicants at 160K before living expenses, how many of them do you honestly think will want to go to a rural area where they would have harder time making higher incomes? Or even stay in a primary care field if they can?
They can talk all they want about putting docs into rural areas, but high debt isn't one way to facilitate that need.
