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Just become a DNP and put "Doctor" before your name.. Problem solved.
DO or Carribean?
- Thread starter Mystikal
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You could peddle drugs for big pharm...
You could teach biology at a CC....
You could advertise for Hydroxycut....
Are there that many people in society like this?
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Ninja>Rockstar>Pirate>MD>=DO>PA>Screenwriter>NP>RN>Carrib
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Like I said above in another thread, will you be at a loss for patients? No. So, whatever.
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Snobbery and ego at its best. I can't imagine deciding not to be a doctor just because I won't have the precious MD after my name. But then, I'm not that vain. I'm getting into medicine to treat patients, not to tout my MD. And I'm also well-informed and know that 95% of the hospitals in this country have both DOs and MDs on staff and 95% of patients have no idea which are which. I guess if you're ignorant about it and vain at the same time, it makes you want to be an RN before a doctor.
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This is true, but keep in mind there are only 26 osteopathic schools vs. like 100 allopathic. You have a lot less people trying for those half a dozen spots so it all works out. The same goes for neurosurgery.
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In HIS experience, as an MD. I've met six DOs and none of them seem to have a chip on their shoulder. One is a DO derm who did an MD residency. Of the others, three did MD residencies and one did a DO residency.
That's ridiculous. Most patients have no idea what the letters behind their doctor's name are. They just know that he or she is the doctor.
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I call BS. Even if these people exist, they're less than 1% of the population. By all means, put your dreams on hold or forget them altogether because of 1% of the population.
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I've also been in an ER where patients refused to see female and black doctors on separate occasions. We live in a world full of ignorant people. As Bac said, you won't ever be at a loss for patients and there will always be someone to discriminate against you for one reason or another.
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Most DO don't, many pre-DO and DO students before the match however, got that whole sensitive thing going on.
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Word. before i started this whole applying to med school thing, i didn't even know that there were two types of doctors. i only knew that they were DOCTORS, and unless you know someone applying to med school, or are applying yourself, or have someone in your family who is/was an MD or DO, most people probably wouldn't either. and yes, there will always be someone who will discriminate against you one way or another - being an MD just means that they'll look for something else to base their discrimination upon (your gender, ethnicity, religious preference, etc.)
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I've never felt that pre-DO/DO students are naturally sensitive, but I feel like the wild misconceptions, ignorant statements, and judgements made by 18 year old pre-meds lead to defensive attitudes. I think anyone would feel the need to act this way with so much flying around.
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Wouldn't refuse if he/she was dying and only a DO was available, I promise you!
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Fortunately the "I refuse to see a DO because they're inferior doctors" crowd is about the same portion of the population who say "I refuse to see an MD, because they are invariably arrogant pricks". When people need care there is no DO or MD, there are good, compassionate Physicians or there are complete tools in white coats, PERIOD.
And for anyone who's getting into this to be recognized or get a big pat on the back because " you're an MD"; A: get the hell out of medicine B:everyone always asks "what will the patients/ignorant as **** public think?"
Ask first how do you feel about yourself and also what kind of person you want to be. I'll tell you this much I have friends who work at many teaching hospitals and my father works at one of the top pediatric hospitals west of the Mississippi, and they all invariably say two things: DO's and MD's are rounding on the same damn patients and you couldn't tell them apart if your life depended on it, and secondly any doc who comes in huffing and puffing and blowing the "well I'm an MD" bull**** are either put in their place or run the hell out of the hospital. Food for thought
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How silly you all are.
Jedi>Ninja>Pirate>MD>DO>Caribb>Psy.D
Anyways, DO and Caribbean MD would both be fine if you were working in a rural area, but both would be detrimental if you want to do high-class academic research.
Jedi>Ninja>Pirate>MD>DO>Caribb>Psy.D
Anyways, DO and Caribbean MD would both be fine if you were working in a rural area, but both would be detrimental if you want to do high-class academic research.
In the end, it will boil down to a few things:
Can you handle being out of the US for a few years? If not, then do the DO. Finances are up in the air, so you can decide which is more economical based on what schools you're looking at.
Next is recognition. I'm not talking about the peer recognition that spawned warring here. I'm talking about by patients looking for an MD. Will it matter? May depend on how competitive the area is.
Both are recognized as having generally lower entrance standards than MD schools, so pick your poison. I would get advice from someone in person, and not on the web. Most of these answers are emotion-based and depend on the poster defending their own career path. The lack of objectivity throughout these forums and the idea that everyone is right makes getting correct, clear info here a bit more tough.
Can you handle being out of the US for a few years? If not, then do the DO. Finances are up in the air, so you can decide which is more economical based on what schools you're looking at.
Next is recognition. I'm not talking about the peer recognition that spawned warring here. I'm talking about by patients looking for an MD. Will it matter? May depend on how competitive the area is.
Both are recognized as having generally lower entrance standards than MD schools, so pick your poison. I would get advice from someone in person, and not on the web. Most of these answers are emotion-based and depend on the poster defending their own career path. The lack of objectivity throughout these forums and the idea that everyone is right makes getting correct, clear info here a bit more tough.
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Very forceful post, but not too convincing.Fortunately the "I refuse to see a DO because they're inferior doctors" crowd is about the same portion of the population who say "I refuse to see an MD, because they are invariably arrogant pricks". When people need care there is no DO or MD, there are good, compassionate Physicians or there are complete tools in white coats, PERIOD.
And for anyone who's getting into this to be recognized or get a big pat on the back because " you're an MD"; A: get the hell out of medicine B:everyone always asks "what will the patients/ignorant as **** public think?"
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These threads baffle me. The only people I know that make a big deal of DO versus MD are premeds and the old guard doctors that were trained in the 60s or earlier. My dad being one of them. Even he realized that there are good doctors, bad doctors and a lot of mediocre ones. The letters don't indicate that. Heck, most people I talk to didn't even know which doctors in my hometown were DOs and which were MDs. Most of the best docs in my community tended to be DO.
Premeds irritate the hell out of me. This is the only time I hear this argument. Are there problems matching into allo residencies? Sure there are but how much is that a result of DOs having their own residencies that they don't let MDs into? How much is it because there are a TON more MDs trying to match into the same programs? (If you have 10 blue marbles for every 1 red marble, odds are you are going to draw the blue) There are a ton of factors. I would like any premed that has a problem with DO to challenge the DOs in my hometown with medical knowledge. I'm sure the triple boarded guy in IM/Cards/Pulm is a complete bumbling fool. *note sarcasm*
Premeds irritate the hell out of me. This is the only time I hear this argument. Are there problems matching into allo residencies? Sure there are but how much is that a result of DOs having their own residencies that they don't let MDs into? How much is it because there are a TON more MDs trying to match into the same programs? (If you have 10 blue marbles for every 1 red marble, odds are you are going to draw the blue) There are a ton of factors. I would like any premed that has a problem with DO to challenge the DOs in my hometown with medical knowledge. I'm sure the triple boarded guy in IM/Cards/Pulm is a complete bumbling fool. *note sarcasm*
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DO, without a question. Your average patient won't know the difference, and your odds of matching into an allopathic residency are considerably higher than those of FMGs. Given the convergence of osteopathic and allopathic medicine, thanks to an actual scientific understanding of medicine (as opposed to what existed when the DO was created), there's not a huge difference between what you learn in each program, as far as I know. One of the doctors I do research with is a DO and he is well-respected in his field. I know of far fewer doctors from Caribbean schools who are now in academic medicine. Academia might not be your goal, and it might matter to you more to get the letters "MD" after your name, but the stats/my anecdotal experience suggest pretty strongly that the American DO is worth more.
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No. You will still be busy enough to be on the borderline of insanity. For every patient that cares, there will be 5 that just want to see a doctor.
This statement loses any meaning right off the bat..."A random MD that you had never met at an MD ADMISSIONS INTERVIEW told you that DO's (As a collective whole) have a chip on their shoulder and can't get into the residency that they want"
This thread is full of pre-med lolz.
Depakote's post sums things up quite nicely. Keep in mind that those 48% of matching FMG's..are the ones that passed the heavy screening and the USMLE to make it to clerkships. The remaining 30% of DO's that didn't match have DO spots that nobody else can take. Hmmm, plenty of residency spots with both matches vs. 50% chance? 🙄 I don't know if that says more about the students or the education, but I would stay as far away from that if you could given the option. #'s don't lie, only pirates. That is why I choose:
MD/DO>pirate>RN>suicide>hydroxycut poster-boy (MD or DO 😀)
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I'm going to go to medical school twice, and get both an MD and a DO.
I know, I know, it's never been done. But think. I'll ace whichever school I go to the second time, and who will have the right to complain?
Tin Man, MD, DO, and made of awesome.
I know, I know, it's never been done. But think. I'll ace whichever school I go to the second time, and who will have the right to complain?
Tin Man, MD, DO, and made of awesome.
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[youtube]ipsYJ23EzaQ[/youtube]
I know someone that goes to AUC (caribbean), he is interning right now here in CA. M3 year. He said it's absolutely beautiful there. He want's to do his residency in surgery. He basically said matching a US residency (competitive one) comes down to your board exams.
I gather that if you're going to go to the caribbean, you need to be one of the top in your class to have a smooth ride through the system.
So yeah If it came down to it I would much rather go to a caribbean school and just work my ass off to be one of the top in the class. How often to patients ask their doctors where they went to school?!
Why are you guys surprised that a lot of caribbean students don't get matched? Obviously there's a reason why most of them had to go there in the first place, and it's usually to do with academic performance, so these statistics aren't putting me off.
I gather that if you're going to go to the caribbean, you need to be one of the top in your class to have a smooth ride through the system.
So yeah If it came down to it I would much rather go to a caribbean school and just work my ass off to be one of the top in the class. How often to patients ask their doctors where they went to school?!
Why are you guys surprised that a lot of caribbean students don't get matched? Obviously there's a reason why most of them had to go there in the first place, and it's usually to do with academic performance, so these statistics aren't putting me off.
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I'm sorry, but I just CANNOT see an argument for picking Carib over DO. I can't. It's ridiculous. With more DO schools opening, more US-MD schools opening, the other US-MD schools increasing their size and residencies staying the same....it's becoming an increasingly BAD IDEA to be a FMG. DO schools have their own residencies, and statistically they're far more likely to match than FMG's as it is. They're also recognized in all 50 states, which most Carib schools aren't (as evidenced by the recent lawsuit against Arkansas- I'm sorry, but if a state like AR that has trouble coming up with doctors to cover its own medical needs would rather disallow most carib students from practicing there than making a dent into its shortage, that's not a good sign). Sooo yeah what's the argument for Carib being better than DO? Hate OMM? Suck it up! Are afraid of people "disapproving" or "not knowing" your degree? That's ridiculous. One of the attendings here in my clinic at Stanford is a DO. You think she has trouble getting patients to trust her?! People believe nurse practitioners are doctors nowadays. Honestly, people see a white coat and think the lab guy is a doctor. I hardly think DO's are suffering for patients.
Anyway, /rant. It's just such an absurd issue. I mean, all actual evidence points to the DO degree as the smarter choice (granted, the issue becomes less black and white when comparing the brand new DO schools and SGU, but that's about the only questionable issue I can forsee). The only argument for carib MD being better than DO i can see is "well, I want those two letters after my name". To each his own, I guess...
Anyway, /rant. It's just such an absurd issue. I mean, all actual evidence points to the DO degree as the smarter choice (granted, the issue becomes less black and white when comparing the brand new DO schools and SGU, but that's about the only questionable issue I can forsee). The only argument for carib MD being better than DO i can see is "well, I want those two letters after my name". To each his own, I guess...
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If you want to be a physician practicing in the USA
only important things is scope of practice, access to at least one residency in the US.
MD (US and CDN allopathic) and DO have same scope of practice. Almost equivalent licensure opportunities (some restrictions in some CDN provinces).
Alphabet considerations secondary unless foreign MD letters and the spurious glamor of these "scarlet tinged letters" more important than reasonable chance of for many IMG's not graduating or being unemployed with a huge debt load .
British,Irish, Australian grads may have difficulty to return stateside,but can still work in civilized medical systems.
Israeli MD's have a good track record of returning to the US, and often perform well on the Step 1's.
MD,MBA,FRCPc,DABR
only important things is scope of practice, access to at least one residency in the US.
MD (US and CDN allopathic) and DO have same scope of practice. Almost equivalent licensure opportunities (some restrictions in some CDN provinces).
Alphabet considerations secondary unless foreign MD letters and the spurious glamor of these "scarlet tinged letters" more important than reasonable chance of for many IMG's not graduating or being unemployed with a huge debt load .
British,Irish, Australian grads may have difficulty to return stateside,but can still work in civilized medical systems.
Israeli MD's have a good track record of returning to the US, and often perform well on the Step 1's.
MD,MBA,FRCPc,DABR
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Funding a resident is different than medical school. That money comes from the gov't. It's very expensive to train a resident.
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I think there are classes MDs can take to get certified in OMM and thereby also be licenseable as DO's (provided they take the tests and do the paperwork)... is this accurate? All I know about this is based on hearsay.
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+1
My last two doctors have been DOs and they're definitely overrun with patients. Same with the DO I shadowed all of them complain that they have too many patients booked to be seen in the time allotted.
I don't know anyone who went to a Caribbean med school so I can't compare, but I'm pretty sure any doctor who makes it through residency is not going to run out of patients.
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They could maybe bill for OMM or definitely charge cash if they were trained in it (there is a practice down the street from me of strictly OMM with 2 MDs and 2 DOs), but they would not be able to use the 'DO' title or obtain a license that says 'osteopathic physician and surgeon,' just as a DO can't complete an ACGME residency and call him/herself an MD.
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I think I would kill myself if I had to repeat any curriculum that was even similar....
MD = DO...but for the sake of argument, it may be easier to become an ENT, dermatologist, Radiologist, or any of the other high paying, hard to get into specialties as an MD, not because they are better trained, but because most of the people picking the slots are MDs.
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A vital piece of info that does not admit any debate. Both options can allow you to become an excellent physician but if you are a DO there are many excellent training programs that will throw your app in the bin before even reading your name.
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I find it personally amusing that pre-meds (who are notoriosly filled with an elitist attitude and that an MD will earn them this great rank above people) are worried about what people will think of them if they were Doctors but with DO instead of MD. You do the same damn thing and like it or not, that 1% that will call you out will still treat you like **** even with an MD.
DO > caribbean
DO > caribbean
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Not anymore. Maybe a few really old-skool ones, but this is NOT the norm.
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93% of US MD grads matched
70% of US DO grads that applied for the MD Match matched
48% of Students from Carib or other Foreign Schools matched
Med school graduate numbers (MD &DO) are increasing like crazy and residency numbers are not changing at all.
70% of US DO grads that applied for the MD Match matched
48% of Students from Carib or other Foreign Schools matched
Med school graduate numbers (MD &DO) are increasing like crazy and residency numbers are not changing at all.
They've been saying that for years. I've been hearing it for at least 13 years now, as the doom and gloom wave hit the field and people told others not to go into medicine in order to keep themselves exclusive and the salaries high.
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No, now it is actually true that US med schools are ramping up enrollment.
Also, the stigma that DO's had in the past is definitely fading.
I would pick DO over Caribbean right now, if you are a US student. However, if you prefer the MD strongly, and must go Caribbean, then only go to one of the 2-4 schools that has a decent board pass rate (like 90% or so) and that can prove/account for most of the students making it into a residency.
Also, the stigma that DO's had in the past is definitely fading.
I would pick DO over Caribbean right now, if you are a US student. However, if you prefer the MD strongly, and must go Caribbean, then only go to one of the 2-4 schools that has a decent board pass rate (like 90% or so) and that can prove/account for most of the students making it into a residency.
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I don't know...but if I was a carrib student, I'd be nervous about the consistent downward trend in match rates each year.
The prediction of MD class size increase and DO school explosion is the the IMG/FMGs would get squeezed. Kinda looks like that may be happening in regards to those numbers.
US grads of international schools
2005 54.7%
2006 50.6%
2007 50.0%
2008 51.9%
2009 47.8%
Last edited:
That's still not a breakdown by country and university, indicating ranking of schools and students.
Furthermore, it's still quite funny how members on this forum perpetuate their own ignorance about foreign medical schools by consistently equating FMG's to Caribbean schools, when those who actually know and make the decisions know the standings of FM schools. It's just another method of maintaining a level of elitism for those in US medicine any way they can.
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Actually, the numbers she's quoting are from the National Resident Match Program and are only for US residents that graduated International Medical Schools:
http://www.nrmp.org/data/advancedatatables2009.pdf
From the same NRMP spreadsheet (I formatted my print-screen wrong)
The number of non-US citizens that haven't matched has also been steadilly increasing over the past few years as well.
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DO school is all about laughing at chiropractors. You'd do fine.
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Really? Sweet, because I was going to lose a little respect for the DOs around here if everyone believed in that crap. I just didn't want to offend any of them by asking.
I saw that graphic you posted in another thread, and it still doesn't show the breakdown by school/country, or anything else other than simply grouping all FMG's together as if they're made equal or didn't get matched for the reason of simple discrimination to get domestic students in, regardless of merit.Actually, the numbers she's quoting are from the National Resident Match Program and are only for US residents that graduated International Medical Schools:
http://www.nrmp.org/data/advancedatatables2009.pdf
From the same NRMP spreadsheet (I formatted my print-screen wrong)
The number of non-US citizens that haven't matched has also been steadilly increasing over the past few years as well.
As some have acknowledged, the matching process has a subjective and highly influential component, and if that was able to be revealed, we'd see a pattern of the best students from international schools doing well, along with students of the best international schools doing well. We also don't truly know if the lower matching is due to a cyclical lowering of performance for students coming out of FM schools either. That is only a black and white chart and fails to address MANY variables in foreign schools, even down to the proportion of those coming out of the caribbean and less desirable places in order to practice in the US because they couldn't get into a US med school.
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No, it definitely still is the case for competitive specialties. Amoryblaine is right on that point.
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Oh you're so cute. That's like arguing that graduating from a non-top 10 university with a 4.0 gpa and 37 MCAT wouldn't get you into Medical School or a "good one" at that.👎
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Ouchies.. I wish I had something witty to say to that.. but I dont.. that just out right sux..
and is kind of true...
