DO or MD for me?

[Bacchus]

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To feel OMM works I feel that you have to see it done. The reason I feel it is a viable technique is because I have seen a physician do it extensively in practice. I agree parts of it are definitely questionable. I don't agree with cranial manipulation because I don't see how the fused bones of the cranium can indeed be maneuvered to relieve pressure, headaches, or pain. However, I have seen OMM done on the spine and it has realigned people, relieved tension, headaches and other things.

 

[Gut Shot]

To feel OMM works I feel that you have to see it done. The reason I feel it is a viable technique is because I have seen a physician do it extensively in practice.

Just as medicine begins to move from the morass of anecdote into the sunshine of evidence, it's nice to know we still have a few obstacles to overcome. Keeps us on our toes.

 

[Bacchus]

Just as medicine begins to move from the morass of anecdote into the sunshine of evidence, it's nice to know we still have a few obstacles to overcome. Keeps us on our toes.

It was just an opinion. I obviously cannot go around and watch every DO practice OMM to have a 100% truthful statement. There is continual research about the benefits of OMM.

 

[MaximusD]

Uh huh, not "much differences." Brilliant.

1. There are 125 accredited allopathic schools and 23 osteopathic ones. DO penetration is variable by region. In Louisiana, for instance, you would literally spend half your time explaining to people what a DO is.

2. DOs learn OMM, whereas MDs do not. Bear in mind that the two DOs in my program both refer to OMM as "pseudoscientific hogwash."

And we should use two DOs to generalize the feelings of the entire osteopathic community?

3. Allopathic medical students have established clinical rotations through affiliated hospitals and clinics. Osteopathic schools are not required to have such affiliations, and therefore the clinical educations is more of a "do it yourself" system. My M3 year was turn key from start to finish. My osteo friends and colleagues were literally like gypsy nomads, moving from city to city, crashing with friends, etc. Your experience will vary greatly depending on your chosen DO school.

You assume that it is best to stay in one place to get the widest breadth of medical knowledge? That is a ridiculous assertion -- I do agree it is ridiculous the extent to which one has to bounce around in certain instances, but there are merits to moving around that can't be ignored.

4. Many (most?) states require DOs to do a year of rotating clinical internship before they can pursue residency in that state.

Not most. 5/50 do. One tenth... not even close.

5. DOs take the COMLEX and MDs take the USMLE. Unless the DOs in question want to pursue an allopathic residency, in which case they will most likely have to take the USMLE in addition to the COMLEX. If you revel in the opportunity to take as many massive, crushing exams as possible (and at great expense), this will be right up your alley.

Cry me a river. At least we have the opportunity to enter two matches and we can look at a wider breadth of programs. A few extra testing days seems like a small price to pay.

6. DO schools have a more uniform emphasis on primary care. MD schools vary from primary care oriented to more specialized.

Mission statements are misleading at times. The majority of PCOM grads go on to specialize.

8. MDs are uniformly recognized internationally, whereas DOs are not. Hopefully that will change, but for now it's reality.

Doesn't really matter if they're licensed physicians in most of the developed world. In some countries in Europe it's difficult to becomea licensed physician, MD or DO.

9. If you change your mind down the road and want to pursue a more competitive specialty, you'll have greater opportunities and an easier match coming from an allopathic school. See #7.

Not necessarily true. There are specialty residencies within the osteopathic match that might not be available or would be far more competitive within the allopathic match.

This thread should NOT be stickied. It's full of misinformation.

 

[cyclohexanol]

...

Dude, did you even read the thread? Everything you replied to retaliated against was already clarified in a meaningful, civil manner. Thanks for the gasoline. 👍

 

[Pansit]

Dude, did you even read the thread? Everything you replied to retaliated against was already clarified in a meaningful, civil manner. Thanks for the gasoline. 👍

cyclhexanol, we both know that a DO and MD thing cannot possibly be resolved in a civil manner..maximus is just doing his part😉

 

[63768]

lol why does a question about DO always have to end up in a battle? give it up already.

that being said, i used to be a skeptic of OMM, but after being treated for a wrist injury (for which 3 MD orthopods recommended NSAIDs and surgery after multiple x-rays), i can see the reasoning behind OMM. i'm not ragging on MDs because it's a difference in training, but DOs are not all bad. i agree that the stats indicate the DO schools have lower numbers, but for what it's worth, my school TCOM posts USMLE scores similar to other med schools and is at the top when it comes to the COMLEX exam.

don't hate on it until you've seen it. i've also talked to residency directors for ortho, emergency med, and internal med, and they have no real bias against DOs as long as they prove themselves to be good doctors and have the requisites. in addition, i've had orthopods tell me they like DOs because they have a more intimate understanding of anatomy and how to palpate.

 

[cleothecat]

WRT scope of practice

DO = MD

That all what's important

(from an MD,MBA,FRCPc, DABR)

 

[Gut Shot]

And we should use two DOs to generalize the feelings of the entire osteopathic community?

No, we should approach OMM with a dose of skepticism.

You assume that it is best to stay in one place to get the widest breadth of medical knowledge? That is a ridiculous assertion -- I do agree it is ridiculous the extent to which one has to bounce around in certain instances, but there are merits to moving around that can't be ignored.

No, I'm not assuming that it's best to stay in one place, I rotated through four hospitals and myriad clinics as an M3. I do assume, however, that having an established clinical curriculum will, in general, lead to a more satisfying and enriching educational experience. M3 year packs in a lot, I'm very glad that I could just focus on the work rather than coordinating my own education.

Not most. 5/50 do. One tenth... not even close.

Corrected above. Twice. Perhaps you should read this thread a little more closely.

Cry me a river. At least we have the opportunity to enter two matches and we can look at a wider breadth of programs. A few extra testing days seems like a small price to pay.

As an M1 I think you should withold your opinion on this for a few years.

Mission statements are misleading at times. The majority of PCOM grads go on to specialize.

You'll note my use of the phrase "more uniform," as in a trend rather than a steadfast rule. Again, perhaps you should read this thread more closely.

Doesn't really matter if they're licensed physicians in most of the developed world. In some countries in Europe it's difficult to becomea licensed physician, MD or DO.

I was referring to being an American MD or DO and attempting to work internationally. My understanding is that MDs can do this pretty much anywhere, whereas DOs have fewer options.

Not necessarily true. There are specialty residencies within the osteopathic match that might not be available or would be far more competitive within the allopathic match.

Finding a few theoretical counterexamples does not deflect the larger reality: statistically speaking, in the forseeable future it will be harder for Joe DO to get an osteopathic residency. Given the emerging expansion of allopathic seats and increased application rates of IMGs, it will most likely be harder for Joe DO to get an allopathic residency.

This thread should NOT be stickied. It's full of misinformation.

Yeah, and you're just the person to set me straight.

 

[Gut Shot]

WRT scope of practice

DO = MD

That all what's important

The scope of practice is very important, but a few things happen in between applying to med school and becoming licensed to have a scope of practice. Yes, a few things, indeed.

(from an MD,MBA,FRCPc, DABR)

I assume that's not you, since you appear to be a Canadian applying to med school just now.

 

[MaximusD]

No, we should approach OMM with a dose of skepticism.



No, I'm not assuming that it's best to stay in one place, I rotated through four hospitals and myriad clinics as an M3. I do assume, however, that having an established clinical curriculum will, in general, lead to a more satisfying and enriching educational experience. M3 year packs in a lot, I'm very glad that I could just focus on the work rather than coordinating my own education.



Corrected above. Twice. Perhaps you should read this thread a little more closely.



As an M1 I think you should withold your opinion on this for a few years.



You'll note my use of the phrase "more uniform," as in a trend rather than a steadfast rule. Again, perhaps you should read this thread more closely.



I was referring to being an American MD or DO and attempting to work internationally. My understanding is that MDs can do this pretty much anywhere, whereas DOs have fewer options.



Finding a few theoretical counterexamples does not deflect the larger reality: statistically speaking, in the forseeable future it will be harder for Joe DO to get an osteopathic residency. Given the emerging expansion of allopathic seats and increased application rates of IMGs, it will most likely be harder for Joe DO to get an allopathic residency.



Yeah, and you're just the person to set me straight.

I don't know why you insist on degrading the osteopathic profession in a public forum. Although you present anecdotal evidence for your claims, I do not find them to be factually correct. No amount of experience can change that until you can give me concrete factual argument.

I will agree that there the quality of education varies greatly within the osteopathic colleges. But to generalize completely includes well-established schools such as NYCOM, PCOM, UMDNJ, etc. Your generalizations simply do not hold water, because the programs vary widely.

Overgeneralizing within the pre-MD forum is just unfair, because it fuels the unfair stigma against DOs, albeit primarily a pre-med preoccupation.

 

[cleothecat]

The scope of practice is very important, but a few things happen in between applying to med school and becoming licensed to have a scope of practice. Yes, a few things, indeed.



I assume that's not you, since you appear to be a Canadian applying to med school just now.

Good assumption. But people have mentors.

 

[Gut Shot]

Good assumption. But people have mentors.

Yes, they certainly do.

[Innappropriate Material Deleted]

 

[Gut Shot]

I don't know why you insist on degrading the osteopathic profession in a public forum. Although you present anecdotal evidence for your claims, I do not find them to be factually correct. No amount of experience can change that until you can give me concrete factual argument.

I am sorry you feel that I'm disparaging the osteopathic profession, as I intended no such thing. MD and DO training both have their challenges and obstacles, and passing out rose colored glasses doesn't help anyone navigate the process.

Honestly, before packing off to DO school, wouldn't you like to know that 47.5% of 2007's graduating DOs did not participate in the AOA Match? Or that in the 2007 NRMP Match 31.2% of DOs went unmatched versus 6.6% of their allopathic counterparts? Or that in 2006 77% of osteopathic students passed USMLE Step 1 on the first try versus 95% of their allopathic counterparts? Or that even osteopathic educators lament that OMM is becoming a lost art? (1) Or that the last 55 years of the NRMP match would look like this?

Does any of this mean that osteopathic education and practice is inferior or shameful? No, of course not. But anyone who is going to set down the long road of physician training should have enough synapses and gonads to make a sober, dispassionate analysis of the path ahead.

I will agree that there the quality of education varies greatly within the osteopathic colleges. But to generalize completely includes well-established schools such as NYCOM, PCOM, UMDNJ, etc. Your generalizations simply do not hold water, because the programs vary widely.

Overgeneralizing within the pre-MD forum is just unfair, because it fuels the unfair stigma against DOs, albeit primarily a pre-med preoccupation.

My apologies, but it's difficult to give someone a concise, hopefully helpful summary without some generalizations. I hope everyone understands that not all DOs become primary care physicians, and that there are DOs practicing in every field. Despite your protestations, however, it is very difficult to deny that DOs comprise a disproportionate number of primary care physicians in this country. This 1999 article is a little dated, but it notes that DOs comprised 5% of all physicians in the country but 9% of all primary care providers. In my humble opinion, I would label that statistic congruent with an emphasis, however uniform, on primary care education.


1. Johnson SM, Kurtz ME. Diminished use of osteopathic manipulative treatment and its impact on the uniqueness of the osteopathic profession. Acad Med. 76:821-8, 2001.

 

[MaximusD]

I am sorry you feel that I'm disparaging the osteopathic profession, as I intended no such thing. MD and DO training both have their challenges and obstacles, and passing out rose colored glasses doesn't help anyone navigate the process.

I appreciate the apology, but the misinformation is already out there. Some premed read this thread and mistook it for absolute fact.

Honestly, before packing off to DO school, wouldn't you like to know that 47.5% of 2007's graduating DOs did not participate in the AOA Match? Or that in the 2007 NRMP Match 31.2% of DOs went unmatched versus 6.6% of their allopathic counterparts? Or that in 2006 77% of osteopathic students passed USMLE Step 1 on the first try versus 95% of their allopathic counterparts?

A few things I'd like to mention to rebut your points:

1. It is likely that the 31.2% you speak of pertained to the MD match, seeing as MANY DO residencies go unfilled each year. It is also important to realize that many, many individuals scramble and attain residencies outside of the match.

2. Osteopathic medical curriculum is geared towards the COMLEX, because all osteopathic students must pass the COMLEX. This is in direct contrast to MD students. MD students have to pass the USMLE. What is the result? DO students care less about the USMLE and some unwisely (euphemism for stupidly) take it without preparation. I would surmise that although the content and difficulty is parallel in many ways between these two examinations, the format is markely different. DO students become accustomed to COMLEX tests; MD students become accustomed to the the USMLE... this acclimation and gearing-of-motivation could account for much of the pass rate variation.

3. I do not think that is an issue that many DO students choose to match outside of the osteopathic residencies. That is their choice.

The fact is that individuals choose the allopathic match for a variety of reasons.

The first is that the osteopathic match comes before the allopathic match. What does this mean? It means that if a DO candidate matches in a low-choice osteopathic residency, they are stuck. Their top choice DO residency might be far more desirable than their highest choice MD residency, but as was the case in med school admissions, individuals don't always end up at their first choice. To be safe, many students wait for the MD match.

The second reason would be location. DO hospitals/residency positions are FAR outnumbered by allopathic hospitals/residencies, which means that MD residencies are in a wider array of locations throughout the United States.

You assume too much with those numbers. Sure, there are many MD residencies that are in larger and more established hospitals. But the fact is that this is often not the reason why DOs choose to enter the MD match.

Despite your protestations, however, it is very difficult to deny that DOs comprise a disproportionate number of primary care physicians in this country. This 1999 article is a little dated, but it notes that DOs comprised 5% of all physicians in the country but 9% of all primary care providers. In my humble opinion, I would label that statistic congruent with an emphasis, however uniform, on primary care education.

That is of practicing physicians, including those who completed their medical education up to 40 years ago. I will not deny that historically, DOs have predominantly gone into primary care. Despite this, many up-and-coming osteopathic physicians are choosing to specialize. There is nothing wrong with primary care, do not get me wrong, but when you generalize that becoming a DO basically forces you into primary care, I take issue with that generalization. At PCOM, it is simply not the case.

 

[Gut Shot]

I appreciate the apology, but the misinformation is already out there.

Aside from the restructuring of the internship year, I stand by every piece of "misinformation" that I've posted.

A few things I'd like to mention to rebut your points:

There are, no doubt, many reasons to explain the statistics I posted. No matter how you or I spin them, however, the inescapable bottom line is the same: DOs have more limited postgraduate training options compared to domestic MDs, and they are not given "first crack" at the NRMP match like domestic allopaths. Does this matter? It's up to the individual user.

but when you generalize that becoming a DO basically forces you into primary care, I take issue with that generalization.

Where exactly have I said that being a DO "basically forces you into primary care"?

 

[MaximusD]

There are, no doubt, many reasons to explain the statistics I posted.

That fact alone does not discredit the reasons that I mentioned previously.

No matter how you or I spin them, however, the inescapable bottom line is the same: DOs have more limited postgraduate training options compared to domestic MDs, and they are not given "first crack" at the NRMP match like domestic allopaths. Does this matter? It's up to the individual user.

If that is true, it is only true on a regional basis. There are plenty of opportunities for osteopathic physicians on the east coast, particularly within the megalopolis.

Where exactly have I said that being a DO "basically forces you into primary care"?

After reading back through the whole thread, I will concede that YOU never explicitly said it. However your post did precipitate this quote, which was really irritating:

Frankly, I don't think anyone else has said it clearer. As much as most people might want to say that MD = DO, unless you are 100% sure you want to do primary care, that just practically isn't true.

AND with that I have to get back to gross anatomy...

 

[cyclohexanol]

Aside from the restructuring of the internship year, I stand by every piece of "misinformation" that I've posted.

Concur, it was a great post. 👍

Maximus - calm down dude, nothing in that original post was an attack.

 

[PT2MD]

Wow...it seems like you both have some salient point-counterpoints. Maybe agree to disagree would be a good tactic to wrap up an informative thread.

 

[Gut Shot]

That fact alone does not discredit the reasons that I mentioned previously.

Well if that's the way you feel about it, then that's the way you feel about it (name that 80's movie).

If that is true, it is only true on a regional basis. There are plenty of opportunities for osteopathic physicians on the east coast, particularly within the megalopolis.

It is true, and it is true on a regional basis (see my original list). The DO presence is particularly strong in the northeast, but is weaker in some other parts of the country.

After reading back through the whole thread, I will concede that YOU never explicitly said it.

Strong work.

 

[Gut Shot]

Wow...it seems like you both have some salient point-counterpoints. Maybe agree to disagree would be a good tactic to wrap up an informative thread.

No way!

 

[PT2MD]

No way!

Or we could...fight...more.

BTW - Witches of Eastwick was a great flick back in the day. One of Nicholson's best monologues ever.

 

[MaximusD]

I don't think that I was ever not calm...

Oversensitive, perhaps.

At any rate, I think this was the most noninflammatory DO vs. MD-type argument I've ever seen on SDN... thanks for the calm and collected debate.

And I really should stop posting and finish reading GA.

 

[Gut Shot]

Despite this, many up-and-coming osteopathic physicians are choosing to specialize.

I reckon this is the crux of our entire disagreement. I stated that DO schools have a greater tendency to emphasize primary care and you pointed out that many DO students specialize. It's like I state that the Dutch are the tallest people in the world and you point out that there are still short Dutch people. These pieces of information are not mutually exclusive.

 

[Gut Shot]

BTW - Witches of Eastwick was a great flick back in the day. One of Nicholson's best monologues ever.

Good catch. I don't suppose you saw my Mentors pic before it was forcibly removed.

God, I hate the 80's.

 

[Phoenix.]

Seriously. Way to keep it civil. You guys rock. If only all MD/DO discussions were like this.

 

[MaximusD]

I reckon this is the crux of our entire disagreement. I stated that DO schools have a greater tendency to emphasize primary care and you pointed out that many DO students specialize. It's like I state that the Dutch are the tallest people in the world and you point out that there are still short Dutch people. These pieces of information are not mutually exclusive.

That is a good catch, although I still wouldn't agree entirely. I'm not sure when I've said it... but I've said it recently... I think most DO schools now simply pay lip service to the whole let's-push-primary-care mentality. Many state MD schools claim to emphasize primary care, but that has very little actual effect on student specialization choice.

But yeah, I chuckled at your response anyway 😉

 

[Pansit]

That is a good catch, although I still wouldn't agree entirely. I'm not sure when I've said it... but I've said it recently... I think most DO schools now simply pay lip service to the whole let's-push-primary-care mentality. Many state MD schools claim to emphasize primary care, but that has very little actual effect on student specialization choice.

But yeah, I chuckled at your response anyway 😉

yeah...DMU for example sends 60% of it's grad to specialities (whose Dean specializes in surgical oncology), and you mentioned PCOM and I am sure there are others..

 

[PT2MD]

Good catch. I don't suppose you saw my Mentors pic before it was forcibly removed.

God, I hate the 80's.

Beats the 70's. Didn't see the pic. Good discussion. Might want to sticky it just to show how civil these arguments can be.

 

[tkim]

Aside from the restructuring of the internship year, I stand by every piece of "misinformation" that I've posted.

There's one statement that I'm interested in getting clarification about - international practice.

I've posted info about the USDO ability to practice internationally in the pre-osteo forum. And while the number of countries that recognize the USDO degree increase every couple of years, there are still a bunch of countries that don't.

It's sort of a mixed blessing having a list that clearly states where in the world you can practice with your degree, but noting that your degree isn't universally accepted.

My question is this - how do you know that the US MD is more widely accepted internationally? I have no doubt that it is, since the degree has been in existence for a longer period of time, and there are more USMD holders out there practicing. But *how* much more widely is the USMD degree accepted compared to the USDO? By a little or a lot?

I'm wondering how you base this opinion.

 

[Gut Shot]

But *how* much more widely is the USMD degree accepted compared to the USDO? By a little or a lot?

That's a good question. I'm unaware of any restriction on international medical licensing of US-trained MD's. The scope of international practice by MD field workers of the WHO, the PAHO, and Doctors Without Borders bears this out. Pick a country, any country...

It was news to me that DOs were not equally recognized until I recieved some blurb from AMSA about the matter. I'm all for it.

 

[Gut Shot]

Beats the 70's.

Shut your mouth, child. I happen to be a 70's model.

 

[tkim]

That's a good question. I'm unaware of any restriction on international medical licensing of US-trained MD's. The scope of international practice by MD field workers of the WHO, the PAHO, and Doctors Without Borders bears this out. Pick a country, any country...

Ah, there's a difference between international *relief* work, and working internationally.

When you go out to do field work under the umbrella of say - WHO, or Doctors Without Borders, the host country grants you a temporary license to work in that country. That's never a problem.

Say you want to travel and work for a living for a couple of years in Australia or China as a doc. Big difference. Much paperwork. There is a test involved in many places. Kinda sketchy.

As for examples places that restrict USMD holders to practice:

Aruba - only graduates from 5 USMD schools can apply for licensure.*

Singapore - only graduates from 37 USMD schools can apply for licensure.

http://www.smc.gov.sg/html/1153709442948.html

Indonesia - only missionary/relief work.*

Morroco - none at all.*

Mexico - MD and DO must complete 5 year Mexican residency before licensure.*


*I don't have all the links - it's been a while since I've looked that stuff up.

But you can see that the USMD is not as universal as people think. The MBBS seems a little bit more accepted.

 

[Gut Shot]

Ah, there's a difference between international *relief* work, and working internationally.

When you go out to do field work under the umbrella of say - WHO, or Doctors Without Borders, the host country grants you a temporary license to work in that country. That's never a problem.

That's the context I was thinking of. Most of my knowledge of international medical practice comes from either colleagues doing medical missionary work or from the faculty I worked with in my Tropical Disease program. Some of them spent years practicing and doing research in various far flung corners of the world. The mantra was "Have MD will travel."

Say you want to travel and work for a living for a couple of years in Australia or China as a doc. Big difference. Much paperwork. There is a test involved in many places. Kinda sketchy.

But you can see that the USMD is not as universal as people think. The MBBS seems a little bit more accepted.

Very interesting, although even if it's a pain in the arse it's still possible. And then there's Morroco. Damn you, Morroco! I stand corrected. There's always one damned country that has to be difficult.

Regardless, there is still a gap between acceptance of MDs and DOs for such purposes. For instance, you mentioned Singapore, which only recognizes the MD from 11 US schools, doesn't recognize DOs at all. So I reckon that if you're a DO who is hot under the collar to hit Singapore for some medical practice you're SOL.

 

[Pansit]

That's the context I was thinking of. Most of my knowledge of international medical practice comes from either colleagues doing medical missionary work or from the faculty I worked with in my Tropical Disease program. Some of them spent years practicing and doing research in various far flung corners of the world. The mantra was "Have MD will travel."



Very interesting, although even if it's a pain in the arse it's still possible. And then there's Morroco. Damn you, Morroco! I stand corrected. There's always one damned country that has to be difficult.

Regardless, there is still a gap between acceptance of MDs and DOs for such purposes. For instance, you mentioned Singapore, which only recognizes the MD from 11 US schools, doesn't recognize DOs at all. So I reckon that if you're a DO who is hot under the collar to hit Singapore for some medical practice you're SOL.

or your SOL if you went to the other 100 or so MD schools...thats probably quite a few more students that the 20 or so DO schools.

 

[Gut Shot]

or your SOL if you went to the other 100 or so MD schools...thats probably quite a few more students that the 20 or so DO schools.

True, but MD = some chance, DO = zero chance.

 

[da8s0859q]

Let's just say that if you knew any less about medical practice and the distinctions between MDs and DOs, we could start harvesting your organs.

 

[tkim]

Regardless, there is still a gap between acceptance of MDs and DOs for such purposes. For instance, you mentioned Singapore, which only recognizes the MD from 11 US schools, doesn't recognize DOs at all. So I reckon that if you're a DO who is hot under the collar to hit Singapore for some medical practice you're SOL.

What I take from most of these discussions is this:

1) The USMD is nowhere as universal as people think.

2) Reciprocity at times will involve additional exams, or training - sometimes a second residency. It's not as if you can show your US diploma and start cutting people open the next day.

3) Clearly there is a disparity between USMD and USDO international practice rights, but unlike the AOA, which clearly tracks and updates progress on the DO side, there is no site that I've found that lists the countries that USMDs can practice. Therefore, while a disparity certainly exists, the degree of which cannot be stated. So it might be a little or a lot. No way to tell.

Now, aside from missionary/relief work in third-world countries, I have no desire to relocate and work in such countries. So, the only part of the USDO restrictions that honestly bother me are the first-world countries - Ireland comes to mind. Not that I plan on working in Ireland but who knows. Hopefully that will change soon.

Another question that comes to mind after all this is - just exactly how many US docs relocate and work in a foreign country anyway?

 

[Gut Shot]

1) The USMD is nowhere as universal as people think.

I think it's difficult to say this (see your own #3). Clearly there are some countries that will not allow practice rights to US MDs, but as you say the extent isn't known (by us, at least).

2) Reciprocity at times will involve additional exams, or training - sometimes a second residency. It's not as if you can show your US diploma and start cutting people open the next day.

Given that you can't even move between states with such ease, I don't find this to be such a huge surprise.

Another question that comes to mind after all this is - just exactly how many US docs relocate and work in a foreign country anyway?

Very tough to say. My money is on very, very few.

 

[Instatewaiter]

The first is that the osteopathic match comes before the allopathic match. What does this mean? It means that if a DO candidate matches in a low-choice osteopathic residency, they are stuck. Their top choice DO residency might be far more desirable than their highest choice MD residency, but as was the case in med school admissions, individuals don't always end up at their first choice. To be safe, many students wait for the MD match.

You assume too much with those numbers. Sure, there are many MD residencies that are in larger and more established hospitals. But the fact is that this is often not the reason why DOs choose to enter the MD match.

So you're saying that Osteo graduates choose the Allo match to be safe ... knowing that they only have a 60-70% match rate in MD residencies and will miss the osteo match (and most likely the osteo scramble)? So if they dont match they will essentially be SOL. Not so sure that argument holds water.

If it were true that a student held a few DO spots higher than the MD residencies, why wouldnt he just apply only to his top 1 or 2 programs? If he didn't oste-match to those 2 programs, he could just apply to MD residencies. The fact of the matter is most osteo grads opt to only apply to MD residencies. If that doesnt tell you something... well when you get to that point come back here and educate us.

I am not saying DOs are bad doctors or that they all go into primary care. But if you dont think that there is a more substantial reason that most osteo grads opt to go to MD residencies than they are playing it safe or that the programs are in a better location, then you are a bit naive.

 

[MaximusD]

So you're saying that Osteo graduates choose the Allo match to be safe ... knowing that they only have a 60-70% match rate in MD residencies and will miss the osteo match (and most likely the osteo scramble)? So if they dont match they will essentially be SOL. Not so sure that argument holds water.

If it were true that a student held a few DO spots higher than the MD residencies, why wouldnt he just apply only to his top 1 or 2 programs? If he didn't oste-match to those 2 programs, he could just apply to MD residencies. The fact of the matter is most osteo grads opt to only apply to MD residencies. If that doesnt tell you something... well when you get to that point come back here and educate us.

I am not saying DOs are bad doctors or that they all go into primary care. But if you dont think that there is a more substantial reason that most osteo grads opt to go to MD residencies than they are playing it safe or that they are in a better location then you are a bit naive.

I didn't say that those are the only reasons. Many of the MD residencies are superior to their DO counterparts. But those two factors that I mentioned also cut a big portion out of that percentage, whether you are willing to acknowledge it or not...

 

[DrMattOglesby]

well its bit too late this year to be applying to any allopathic schools with hopes of getting in on a normal credentials. (3.65 GPA and 30 MCAT)

 

[MaximusD]

well its bit too late this year to be applying to any allopathic schools with hopes of getting in on a normal credentials. (3.65 GPA and 30 MCAT)

That's ridiculous. It's only the end of August. This is normal completion time from now til mid-October.

 

[Dr JPH]

My head hurts from reading all of this straight through.