DO or MD for me?

Started by dannieloco
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dannieloco

dannieloco

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Hey 'all,

Im applying this year for both MD and DO school. I'm almost done with my MPH degree in Health Service Management and I plan to open clinics of my own (in underserved areas in Los Angeles) and run them administratively. I want the medical knowledge because I feel it will make me a better manager/owner, and I could take strides instead of baby steps in my career. I plan to practice medicine too and help the poor, minority community access healthcare services. I've state this in all my applications and adcoms know this..

But after much thought, I've heard mixed reviews about which degree would benefit me more in the future..

what do you think?
 
You will be fine with either. Some people like MD more, some like DO more. When you go on both types of interviews keep yourself open to either and decide waht you like more.
 
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Umm... MD degree, just because it has fewer obstacles to the path where you might eventually end up.

Besides OMM, there's little difference between what you will learn as an MD or a DO. Don't get caught up in the politics of the situation though.
 
Both will get you where you want to be. Of course you'll get biased results posting here (pre-allo), but in actuality, as a DO, it is doubtful that you face any additional "obstacles" in your path towards opening clinics in an underserved area. Many DO schools put a greater-than-average emphasis on primary care and underserved populations. Focus on the individual school that is the best fit for you.
 
both degrees will teach you what you need to know on how to become a doctor and treat patients.

Sure thier philosophies are different "Treating symptoms vs treating the whole body", but your more interested in knowing the "science" behind human medicine and therefor, either MD or DO will be equally effective for your purpose
 
great! you SDN's are so helpful

so now Im wondering what the biggest diff between DO degrees and MD degrees.. like if one could sum it up in 1-2 senteces.. (I have done my research, but more input wouldnt hurt)
 
I have no idea what the difference between MD and DO is. All I know is that MD's are harder to get into. Can anyone clarify?
 
the biggest diff I know about is that MD's are more well known in the US and the world.. but whatev.. 🙂
 
Nasem said:
Sure thier philosophies are different "Treating symptoms vs treating the whole body",
Click to expand...

Not this again. Modern, mainstream MDs and DOs both practice according to the same biopsychosocial model of illness. The above is just a catch phrase.
 
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dannieloco said:
great! you SDN's are so helpful

so now Im wondering what the biggest diff between DO degrees and MD degrees.. like if one could sum it up in 1-2 senteces.. (I have done my research, but more input wouldnt hurt)
Click to expand...

I might get burnt for this hehe
the ONLY difference is thier philosophies.
The MD says I will treat the symptoms as they come about
The DO says I will treat the body instead, and resort to other methods of curing pathients instead of prescribing drugs everytime.

Here is the funny part... more than 95% of DOs don't perform the OOM- Osteopathic Manipulative Medicine; this is the extra thing DO schools teach you (MD schools don't teach such treatment in thier schooling)
Meaning, most DOs practice medicine the same way MDs do.

And pretty much everysingle MD residency is also open for DO graduates (however alot of positions do show some bios for MDs)
 
Anybody want some?

1911-popcorn-group.jpg
 
ahhh man, another do vs md war? haha jp


:idea:
to be honest tho, I have done much research on web/asking dr's at work, and im still fuzzy about the diffs.. thats why I asked..
 
the reason why its still fuzzy for you is because there aren't much differences, they both practice medicine the same way regardless of how many popcorn cartons some *****s might post 🙂

seriously, go to here and read the whole thing:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osteopathic
 
Try posting this at the DO forum, and ask for some reasons they think DO would be better than MD. Keep an open nind and consider whatever they say, then make you own decision.
 
Instatewaiter said:
um... yeah, that ***** is already a doctor so perhaps you should listen to him
Click to expand...

aside from the brown nosing...
You realise you called him a ***** as well right ??? lol

anyways, I actually woulda listen to whatever he had to say, unfortunately, I wasn't in the mood for any popcorn 🙄
 
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The only major differences between MD and DO are that DOs have additional training in manipulative/OMM medicine, and that they have a focus on primary care. It sounds to me like you are heading to primary care so DO may be a very good choice or atleast equal to that of an MD school.
 
Nasem said:
the reason why its still fuzzy for you is because there aren't much differences, they both practice medicine the same way regardless of how many popcorn cartons some *****s might post 🙂
Click to expand...

Uh huh, not "much differences." Brilliant.

1. There are 125 accredited allopathic schools and 23 osteopathic ones. DO penetration is variable by region. In Louisiana, for instance, you would literally spend half your time explaining to people what a DO is.

2. DOs learn OMM, whereas MDs do not. Bear in mind that the two DOs in my program both refer to OMM as "pseudoscientific hogwash."

3. Allopathic medical students have established clinical rotations through affiliated hospitals and clinics. Osteopathic schools are not required to have such affiliations, and therefore the clinical educations is more of a "do it yourself" system. My M3 year was turn key from start to finish. My osteo friends and colleagues were literally like gypsy nomads, moving from city to city, crashing with friends, etc. Your experience will vary greatly depending on your chosen DO school.

4. Many (most?) states require DOs to do a year of rotating clinical internship before they can pursue residency in that state.

5. DOs take the COMLEX and MDs take the USMLE. Unless the DOs in question want to pursue an allopathic residency, in which case they will most likely have to take the USMLE in addition to the COMLEX. If you revel in the opportunity to take as many massive, crushing exams as possible (and at great expense), this will be right up your alley.

6. DO schools have a more uniform emphasis on primary care. MD schools vary from primary care oriented to more specialized.

7. While this information changes almost monthly, there are about 543 osteopathic residency programs offering training in 49 specialties and subspecialties. There are over 7,000 allopathic residency programs offering training in 90 specialties and subspecialties. You do the math. Furthermore, it is my understanding that while new osteopathic schools are being opened with some rapidity, there has not been a corresponding increase in osteopathic residency spots to accomodate them. Hence, osteopathic competition for allopathic residencies is likely to increase.

8. MDs are uniformly recognized internationally, whereas DOs are not. Hopefully that will change, but for now it's reality.

9. If you change your mind down the road and want to pursue a more competitive specialty, you'll have greater opportunities and an easier match coming from an allopathic school. See #7.

Flame suit on.
 
Gut Shot said:
Uh huh, not "much differences." Brilliant.

1. There are 125 accredited allopathic schools and 23 osteopathic ones. DO penetration is variable by region. In Louisiana, for instance, you would literally spend half your time explaining to people what a DO is.

2. DOs learn OMM, whereas MDs do not. Bear in mind that the two DOs in my program both refer to OMM as "pseudoscientific hogwash."

3. Allopathic medical students have established clinical rotations through affiliated hospitals and clinics. Osteopathic schools are not required to have such affiliations, and therefore the clinical educations is more of a "do it yourself" system. My M3 year was turn key from start to finish. My osteo friends and colleagues were literally like gypsy nomads, moving from city to city, crashing with friends, etc. Your experience will vary greatly depending on your chosen DO school.

4. Many (most?) states require DOs to do a year of rotating clinical internship before they can pursue residency in that state.

5. DOs take the COMLEX and MDs take the USMLE. Unless the DOs in question want to pursue an allopathic residency, in which case they will most likely have to take the USMLE in addition to the COMLEX. If you revel in the opportunity to take as many massive, crushing exams as possible (and at great expense), this will be right up your alley.

6. DO schools have a more uniform emphasis on primary care. MD schools vary from primary care oriented to more specialized.

7. While this information changes almost monthly, there are about 543 osteopathic residency programs offering training in 49 specialties and subspecialties. There are over 7,000 allopathic residency programs offering training in 90 specialties and subspecialties. You do the math. Furthermore, it is my understanding that while new osteopathic schools are being opened with some rapidity, there has not been a corresponding increase in osteopathic residency spots to accomodate them. Hence, osteopathic competition for allopathic residencies is likely to increase.

8. MDs are uniformly recognized internationally, whereas DOs are not. Hopefully that will change, but for now it's reality.

9. If you change your mind down the road and want to pursue a more competitive specialty, you'll have greater opportunities and an easier match coming from an allopathic school. See #7.

Flame suit on.
Click to expand...

No need for a flame suit. Frankly, I don't think anyone else has said it clearer. As much as most people might want to say that MD = DO, unless you are 100% sure you want to do primary care, that just practically isn't true.

Nice post btw. 👍
 
Gut Shot said:
Uh huh, not "much differences." Brilliant.

1. There are 125 accredited allopathic schools and 23 osteopathic ones. DO penetration is variable by region. In Louisiana, for instance, you would literally spend half your time explaining to people what a DO is.

2. DOs learn OMM, whereas MDs do not. Bear in mind that the two DOs in my program both refer to OMM as "pseudoscientific hogwash."

3. Allopathic medical students have established clinical rotations through affiliated hospitals and clinics. Osteopathic schools are not required to have such affiliations, and therefore the clinical educations is more of a "do it yourself" system. My M3 year was turn key from start to finish. My osteo friends and colleagues were literally like gypsy nomads, moving from city to city, crashing with friends, etc. Your experience will vary greatly depending on your chosen DO school.

4. Many (most?) states require DOs to do a year of rotating clinical internship before they can pursue residency in that state.

5. DOs take the COMLEX and MDs take the USMLE. Unless the DOs in question want to pursue an allopathic residency, in which case they will most likely have to take the USMLE in addition to the COMLEX. If you revel in the opportunity to take as many massive, crushing exams as possible (and at great expense), this will be right up your alley.

6. DO schools have a more uniform emphasis on primary care. MD schools vary from primary care oriented to more specialized.

7. While this information changes almost monthly, there are about 543 osteopathic residency programs offering training in 49 specialties and subspecialties. There are over 7,000 allopathic residency programs offering training in 90 specialties and subspecialties. You do the math. Furthermore, it is my understanding that while new osteopathic schools are being opened with some rapidity, there has not been a corresponding increase in osteopathic residency spots to accomodate them. Hence, osteopathic competition for allopathic residencies is likely to increase.

8. MDs are uniformly recognized internationally, whereas DOs are not. Hopefully that will change, but for now it's reality.

9. If you change your mind down the road and want to pursue a more competitive specialty, you'll have greater opportunities and an easier match coming from an allopathic school. See #7.

Flame suit on.
Click to expand...

That was a complete virtual *****slap. 👍
 
Gut Shot said:
Uh huh, not "much differences." Brilliant.




3. Allopathic medical students have established clinical rotations through affiliated hospitals and clinics. Osteopathic schools are not required to have such affiliations, and therefore the clinical educations is more of a "do it yourself" system. My M3 year was turn key from start to finish. My osteo friends and colleagues were literally like gypsy nomads, moving from city to city, crashing with friends, etc. Your experience will vary greatly depending on your chosen DO school.

4. Many (most?) states require DOs to do a year of rotating clinical internship before they can pursue residency in that state.


6. DO schools have a more uniform emphasis on primary care. MD schools vary from primary care oriented to more specialized.

7. While this information changes almost monthly, there are about 543 osteopathic residency programs offering training in 49 specialties and subspecialties. There are over 7,000 allopathic residency programs offering training in 90 specialties and subspecialties. You do the math. Furthermore, it is my understanding that while new osteopathic schools are being opened with some rapidity, there has not been a corresponding increase in osteopathic residency spots to accomodate them. Hence, osteopathic competition for allopathic residencies is likely to increase.
Click to expand...

Clarification:
3) Not true for all schools. PCOM has a set affiliation with many hospitals. Several other schools do. Yes some schools screw their students with no set rotations/

4) The internship was eliminated last year and this match will no longer have it. Only 5 states still required it. It was also the equivalent to a PGY-1 year so it didn't always add on to a residency.

6) The same applies to DO schools, some like primary care, some don't
 
You've decided to apply to both already? Then what's the point of this thread? It's only going to stir up the usual MD vs DO debate.
 
JonnyG said:
Clarification:
3) Not true for all schools. PCOM has a set affiliation with many hospitals. Several other schools do. Yes some schools screw their students with no set rotations/
Click to expand...

Agreed, individual results will vary. If I were to go DO I'd totally go PCOM or Kirksville. That said, I'll never forget hauling my two DO buddies to the airport with piles of luggage and boxes of cooking supplies for their journey to their next self-assembled rotation site.

JonnyG said:
4) The internship was eliminated last year and this match will no longer have it. Only 5 states still required it. It was also the equivalent to a PGY-1 year so it didn't always add on to a residency.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the clarification. I'm glad the requirement has been relaxed. It always seemed like a relic.

JonnyG said:
6) The same applies to DO schools, some like primary care, some don't
Click to expand...

I hear ya, but for every PCOM there are several VCOMs.
 
Gut Shot said:
Uh huh, not "much differences." Brilliant.

1. There are 125 accredited allopathic schools and 23 osteopathic ones. DO penetration is variable by region. In Louisiana, for instance, you would literally spend half your time explaining to people what a DO is.

2. DOs learn OMM, whereas MDs do not. Bear in mind that the two DOs in my program both refer to OMM as "pseudoscientific hogwash."

3. Allopathic medical students have established clinical rotations through affiliated hospitals and clinics. Osteopathic schools are not required to have such affiliations, and therefore the clinical educations is more of a "do it yourself" system. My M3 year was turn key from start to finish. My osteo friends and colleagues were literally like gypsy nomads, moving from city to city, crashing with friends, etc. Your experience will vary greatly depending on your chosen DO school.

4. Many (most?) states require DOs to do a year of rotating clinical internship before they can pursue residency in that state.

5. DOs take the COMLEX and MDs take the USMLE. Unless the DOs in question want to pursue an allopathic residency, in which case they will most likely have to take the USMLE in addition to the COMLEX. If you revel in the opportunity to take as many massive, crushing exams as possible (and at great expense), this will be right up your alley.

6. DO schools have a more uniform emphasis on primary care. MD schools vary from primary care oriented to more specialized.

7. While this information changes almost monthly, there are about 543 osteopathic residency programs offering training in 49 specialties and subspecialties. There are over 7,000 allopathic residency programs offering training in 90 specialties and subspecialties. You do the math. Furthermore, it is my understanding that while new osteopathic schools are being opened with some rapidity, there has not been a corresponding increase in osteopathic residency spots to accomodate them. Hence, osteopathic competition for allopathic residencies is likely to increase.

8. MDs are uniformly recognized internationally, whereas DOs are not. Hopefully that will change, but for now it's reality.

9. If you change your mind down the road and want to pursue a more competitive specialty, you'll have greater opportunities and an easier match coming from an allopathic school. See #7.

Flame suit on.
Click to expand...

lmao, that was a pretty good post, Im glad I provoced you enough to have you write all that 🙂
 
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Just some minor clarification but overall, good summary 👍

Gut Shot said:
Uh huh, not "much differences." Brilliant.

1. There are 125 accredited allopathic schools and 23 osteopathic ones. DO penetration is variable by region. In Louisiana, for instance, you would literally spend half your time explaining to people what a DO is.
Click to expand...

I think the pain of "explaining what a DO is" to patients is overstated. It's more a pain to explain it to friends and relatives. It's a frequent concern that is brought up by many pre-meds. To many patients, you are "the doctor"

Gut Shot said:
2. DOs learn OMM, whereas MDs do not. Bear in mind that the two DOs in my program both refer to OMM as "pseudoscientific hogwash."
Click to expand...

You can't clump all of OMM. There are some concepts and techniques of OMM that is scientifically validated (by PhD Physiologists at academic centers) and are utilized by Physical Therapy ... and there are some techniques and concepts that causes students to roll their eyes and grin.

Gut Shot said:
3. Allopathic medical students have established clinical rotations through affiliated hospitals and clinics. Osteopathic schools are not required to have such affiliations, and therefore the clinical educations is more of a "do it yourself" system. My M3 year was turn key from start to finish. My osteo friends and colleagues were literally like gypsy nomads, moving from city to city, crashing with friends, etc. Your experience will vary greatly depending on your chosen DO school.
Click to expand...

Yep ... each school is different ... that's why it is important to choose wisely

Gut Shot said:
4. Many (most?) states require DOs to do a year of rotating clinical internship before they can pursue residency in that state.
Click to expand...
5 states - Pennsylvania, West Virginia, Florida, Michigan, Oklahoma. If you want more info, you can go over to the osteopathic forum.

Gut Shot said:
5. DOs take the COMLEX and MDs take the USMLE. Unless the DOs in question want to pursue an allopathic residency, in which case they will most likely have to take the USMLE in addition to the COMLEX. If you revel in the opportunity to take as many massive, crushing exams as possible (and at great expense), this will be right up your alley.
Click to expand...
In general, yes. However, there are a decent amount of ACGME programs that will accept COMLEX (and don't require USMLE). That policy varies with programs even within the same institution. The general trend seems to be programs where DOs are more saturated, or the programs have experiences with DOs in the past.

Gut Shot said:
6. DO schools have a more uniform emphasis on primary care. MD schools vary from primary care oriented to more specialized.
Click to expand...

True ... but there are some DO schools who are known send more students into non-primary care specialties than others. So it's important to do your research before finalizing your selection of school.

Gut Shot said:
7. While this information changes almost monthly, there are about 543 osteopathic residency programs offering training in 49 specialties and subspecialties. There are over 7,000 allopathic residency programs offering training in 90 specialties and subspecialties. You do the math. Furthermore, it is my understanding that while new osteopathic schools are being opened with some rapidity, there has not been a corresponding increase in osteopathic residency spots to accomodate them. Hence, osteopathic competition for allopathic residencies is likely to increase.
Click to expand...
Yep

Gut Shot said:
8. MDs are uniformly recognized internationally, whereas DOs are not. Hopefully that will change, but for now it's reality.
Click to expand...

It's actually more complicated than that ... outside the scope of this thread.


Gut Shot said:
9. If you change your mind down the road and want to pursue a more competitive specialty, you'll have greater opportunities and an easier match coming from an allopathic school. See #7.
Click to expand...

agreed.
 
some may call me ignorant, but the fact is:

DO = glorified Nurse Practitioner.


MOST (not ALL, YES THERE ARE EXCEPTIONS) DO's have lower MCAT scores and lower GPAs that their fellow MDs.

i dont get it.... why the hell do people spend so much time justifying that MD=DO. i mean...are you guys serious???? you dont see me calling my acupuncturist my GP do you? jeeeeeeeeez
 
lawlz123 said:
some may call me ignorant, but the fact is:

DO = glorified Nurse Practitioner.


MOST (not ALL, YES THERE ARE EXCEPTIONS) DO's have lower MCAT scores and lower GPAs that their fellow MDs.

i dont get it.... why the hell do people spend so much time justifying that MD=DO. i mean...are you guys serious???? you dont see me calling my acupuncturist my GP do you? jeeeeeeeeez
Click to expand...

Can you give me an example where a DO does not act like a physician? No... OMM doesn't count.
 
lawlz123 said:
some may call me ignorant, but the fact is:

DO = glorified Nurse Practitioner.


MOST (not ALL, YES THERE ARE EXCEPTIONS) DO's have lower MCAT scores and lower GPAs that their fellow MDs.

i dont get it.... why the hell do people spend so much time justifying that MD=DO. i mean...are you guys serious???? you dont see me calling my acupuncturist my GP do you? jeeeeeeeeez
Click to expand...


I think this is where we need a flame suit. Have fun buddy.
 
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MD is the "natural" way to go.
DO's are just different, yet they claim to be the same. they are analogous to present day homosexuals claiming their rights for same sex marriage.

im not anti-gay or anything, but it is a great example.
 
lawlz123 said:
MD is the "natural" way to go.
DO's are just different, yet they claim to be the same. they are analogous to present day homosexuals claiming their rights for same sex marriage.

im not anti-gay or anything, but it is a great example.
Click to expand...

And that answer is the same as something that would come from the mouth of one of the characters walking out of Deliverance. So wrong man. You are obviously ignorant from your post.
 
group_theory said:
Just some minor clarification but overall, good summary 👍
Click to expand...

Thanks. Coming from an osteopathic resident I'm glad that I haven't totally screwed the pooch with my assessment. While I'm not interested in endlessly rehashing this discussion, I would like to address a few small points.

group_theory said:
I think the pain of "explaining what a DO is" to patients is overstated. It's more a pain to explain it to friends and relatives. It's a frequent concern that is brought up by many pre-meds. To many patients, you are "the doctor"
Click to expand...

My "explaining what a DO is" comment was a little tongue in cheek, but I stand by my fundamental assertion that the acceptance of DOs is variable by region. I know it isn't always an issue, but compared to MDs it's an unfortunate stigma. If you were to hang out a shingle in Slidell, much of the populace would assume you were some sort of chiropracter.

group_theory said:
You can't clump all of OMM. There are some concepts and techniques of OMM that is scientifically validated (by PhD Physiologists at academic centers) and are utilized by Physical Therapy ... and there are some techniques and concepts that causes students to roll their eyes and grin.
Click to expand...

Frankly, I wouldn't know OMM if it bit me in the ass. My knowledge of it is almost entirely vicarious. Based on what I do know, however, my current opinion of it sounds not unlike yours: some baby, a whole lotta bathwater. Hence, I find it curious that the fundamental difference between allopathic and osteopathic curricula is a therapeutic approach that:

1. Has few proven benefits, which are probably best left to PTs
2. Is loaded with garbage
3. Isn't even practiced by the vast majority of DOs

When Andrew Taylor Still founded osteopathy, there was virtually no accurate knowledge of pathophysiology, less in the way of reliable diagnostics, and even fewer effective therapies available. The practice of medicine was rife with charlatans and quackery. While he correctly observed that contemporary medical orthodoxy had serious shortcomings, his observations and practices never went mainstream. This happened because, well, the pharmacotherapy that he renounced eventually became more successful than the musculoskeletal approach he embraced.

After the divergence of practice (fortuitous for MDs, not so for their DO counterparts), DOs have become more accepted by becoming more mainstream. Their expansion and increasing acceptance over the past 40-60 years hasn't been predicated on DOs being different, it has been based on DOs being the same. From a purely historical standpoint, I view OMM as an artifact, a vestigial remnant of a time when germ theory was cutting edge.

At the end of the day, this little tangent is rather moot, of course. Nobody in the applicant pool gives a rat's ass. Pre-osteos want to become physicians just like pre-allos.

group_theory said:
5 states - Pennsylvania, West Virginia, Florida, Michigan, Oklahoma. If you want more info, you can go over to the osteopathic forum.
Click to expand...

Already corrected by JohnnyG in post #25.

group_theory said:
Yep ...

In general, yes.

True ...

Yep

agreed.
Click to expand...

Glad you agree. I parsed my words pretty carefully.
 
as for the part about international recognition. I think DO is an american thing. I am pretty certain that FMGs from other counties such as australia and england and others will be able to call themselves MD after taking the USMLE and getting residency training. The DO part thats makes it special is the OMM.

So if you want to go work abroad as a DO.... then good luck to you :luck:
 
I agree with manual therapy techniques being best left to the PT's. (of course I am a little biased and prepared for any poop currently flying my way).

I've got a few friends of mine (DO's) that are about to relicense in Chicago, and have to brush up on all the OMM they aren't doing. We get together and they take me through some of their methods. They are outstanding physicians, but thieir manual techniques are weak because they don't do much in the way of OMM relative to the other procedures they perform on a more routine basis.

WARNING PURE CONJECTURE FOLLOWS:
It seems like today's DO will be challenged by the balance between mainstream medical techniques while still finding time for OMM. It seems like it would be tough to be a great surgeon AND a great practitioner of OMM. I'm sure folks like JPH have much more informed thoughts on this issue.

This being said I've got to agree with the more lucid posts already made by Gutshot and JPH. Pre-meds make more of the distinction than anyone else.
 
In the case described about, I'd go with your favorite initials. Do you prefer Ms or Os?
 
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