DO osteopathic unfriendly residencies.

Started by kirkirkir
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metromed said:
Lol the amount of denial in your post is sad.
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You clearly either cannot read and/or don't know what denial means. Also you talk just like my 16-year old niece who thinks she knows everything.

I specifically agreed with you that they had connections, but I can guarantee the University of Washington is not going to let any scrub into their IM program, no matter who they know.
 
Shinobiz11 said:
You clearly either cannot read and/or don't know what denial means. Also you talk just like my 16-year old niece who thinks she knows everything.

I specifically agreed with you that they had connections, but I can guarantee the University of Washington is not going to let any scrub into their IM program, no matter who they know.
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No you can't guarantee that. Odds are those DOs are indeed the worst residents at that program.
 
metromed said:
No you can't guarantee that. Odds are those DOs are indeed the worst residents at that program.
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So what you're trying to tell me is that the UNIVERSITY OF WASHINGTON, an annually ranked TOP-15 INTERNAL MEDICINE PROGRAM, is going to let a crappy DO student in, just because they have connections. It doesn't matter if you're the worst/best resident, you still have to be a stellar applicant to sniff anywhere near that place. Get off your high horse, maybe put some thought into your trolling.
 
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Shinobiz11 said:
So what you're trying to tell me is that the UNIVERSITY OF WASHINGTON, an annually ranked TOP-15 INTERNAL MEDICINE PROGRAM, is going to let a crappy DO student in, just because they have connections. It doesn't matter if you're the worst/best resident, you still have to be a stellar applicant to sniff anywhere near that place. Get off your high horse, maybe put some thought into your trolling.
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Yes, the cardiology PD will tell the IM PD "Let my kid in" and that's that. My own school had "beast matches" and these students were nothing more than B & C students with a below average comlex & NO USMLE. Yet, I saw people on sdn drooling over those matches as well.
 
metromed said:
Yes, the cardiology PD will tell the IM PD "Let my kid in" and that's that. My own school had "beast matches" and these students were nothing more than B & C students with a below average comlex & NO USMLE. Yet, I saw people on sdn drooling over those matches as well.
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Any examples you'd like to point out?
 
CajunMedic said:
EM: LSU-New Orleans,- No DO rotations per their website: "Note that LSU-NO only accepts students from AAMC accredited medical schools." but for applications: "Outstanding applicants with previous training, DO degrees or non-traditional medical training will be considered.". I've never heard of or seen a DO match there. The IM program has only 1 from PCOM-GA.

LSU-Baton Rouge is now DO unfriendly (Almost half the classes used to be DO/Carib) -current 4th year on EMS Med Direction/Community Paramedicine elective in BR was told they weren't going to taking any DO's. I was told by a couple of faculty members not to waste an away rotation there (no correlation between rotations and matching). They now have the same rule about AAMC accredited schools that LSU-NO does. Ironically enough, they have a DO attending who graduated from the "old" (pre hospital closure and program movement) program
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LSU's Programs generally suck anyway. I came across one on the interview trail last year and it was shady as can be.
 
metromed said:
Yes, the cardiology PD will tell the IM PD "Let my kid in" and that's that. My own school had "beast matches" and these students were nothing more than B & C students with a below average comlex & NO USMLE. Yet, I saw people on sdn drooling over those matches as well.
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As someone who has relatives who are/were academic physicians/ PDs you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about
 
iwillnevergiveup said:
Indeed...couldn't care less about LSU...
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The program I came across was awful, like literally horrible.

And the PD looked, dressed, and talked like Percy Wetmore from the Green Mile

image.jpg
 
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It's going to be way more practical to first talk about specialties, then narrow it down to geographical areas, and finally talk about specific programs. Just jumping around like this is gonna make it impossible for anyone to find any of the information they're looking for.
 
Goro said:
Louisiana as a state seems to be the last holdout against osteopathic medicine.
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Well that LSU program was pretty hard up to get me. They even offered to fly me out for another look the day before decision time. And they must've called/emailed 40 or 50 times.

But they can holdout, but that state needs all the help it can get.
 
CajunMedic said:
EM: LSU-New Orleans,- No DO rotations per their website: "Note that LSU-NO only accepts students from AAMC accredited medical schools." but for applications: "Outstanding applicants with previous training, DO degrees or non-traditional medical training will be considered.". I've never heard of or seen a DO match there. The IM program has only 1 from PCOM-GA.
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There are two of us from PCOM-GA. One of the last year's chief residents was a DO. Just wanted to put that out there since I've had applicants message me about the IM program at LSU-NO.
 
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Goro said:
Louisiana as a state seems to be the last holdout against osteopathic medicine.
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Cali not exactly very friendly. Not to many DO's sneaking into the more popular academic programs. I doubt we will see that change much anytime soon.
 
kalat said:
It's going to be way more practical to first talk about specialties, then narrow it down to geographical areas, and finally talk about specific programs. Just jumping around like this is gonna make it impossible for anyone to find any of the information they're looking for.
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Hence the reason that the best approach is for someone to take a few minutes to look up a program, check out the residency list, the recent graduates, the faculty, program requirements, etc. That alone should give a pretty good idea of what's within reach. Even then, just apply and see what happens. Doesn't cost that much extra to throw a few reaches in there.

Want more specifics regarding programs? Search it. Fields? Go search in the specialty field forums. This forum here is much too general to expect many specifics and it is not frequented regularly by many beyond M4.
 
Mad Jack said:
Yale took a DO Pulm/CCM fellow recently. My mind practically exploded.
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Four of their spots went unmatched last year. There were a total of 6 unmatched spots in the specialty in the whole country. Feel free to draw your own conclusions.

Seth Joo said:
Those are some of the best residency programs in the country, even mid tier MDs cannot get the time of day there.
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Wrong. People routinely matched into those programs from my med school which is not even in the top 50. It's true they have to have very strong apps but you definitely will get the time of day there if you're a qualified US MD
 
MeatTornado said:
Four of their spots went unmatched last year. There were a total of 6 unmatched spots in the specialty in the whole country. Feel free to draw your own conclusions.



Wrong. People routinely matched into those programs from my med school which is not even in the top 50. It's true they have to have very strong apps but you definitely will get the time of day there if you're a qualified US MD
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That's very surprising. I guess I'll just have to hope they stay uncompetitive if my interest in critical care comes back. The pulm fellows I've met over the years have all been pretty happy overall.
 
Mad Jack said:
That's very surprising. I guess I'll just have to hope they stay uncompetitive if my interest in critical care comes back. The pulm fellows I've met over the years have all been pretty happy overall.
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pulm/ccm is fairly competitive and it's increasing, from what I hear this is an issue with the specific program
 
Cubsfan10 said:
Radiology - even in a "down" cycle right now with poor job market, no top 15 programs will interview you and only 3 in the top 35-40 will interview a DO. Those are Cleveland Clinic, UPMC, and Yale
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but the middle and lower tier programs are probably quite open...I wouldn't be surprised if DO students with 210's steps had good chances of matching in these.
 
user3 said:
but the middle and lower tier programs are probably quite open...I wouldn't be surprised if DO students with 210's steps had good chances of matching in these.
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The lower-tier rads programs are open to DOs, but when we go back into an "up" cycle they will probably shift back. They are only open to DOs because they have to be. Example - Was at U of Florida - Gaines and an interviewer stated when asked why they don't have any DO's, "Actually, we just took our first DO last year. Five years ago, we would have never considered it, but now that the applicant pool is a smaller, we've had to interview DOs."

There are some programs that have more DOs than MDs but they are low-tier and those DOs are better than many MDs who matched to "higher" spots.
 
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MeatTornado said:
Four of their spots went unmatched last year. There were a total of 6 unmatched spots in the specialty in the whole country. Feel free to draw your own conclusions.



Wrong. People routinely matched into those programs from my med school which is not even in the top 50. It's true they have to have very strong apps but you definitely will get the time of day there if you're a qualified US MD
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That is the key word, qualified "US MD", most of us here are DOs, so I guess that leaves people like me out. Its the reason why so many DO students do not have much enthusiasm, we get into more debt often than our MD counterparts but have to deal with prejudice when we enter the cold cruel real world.
 
Seth Joo said:
That is the key word, qualified "US MD", most of us here are DOs, so I guess that leaves people like me out. Its the reason why so many DO students do not have much enthusiasm, we get into more debt often than our MD counterparts but have to deal with prejudice when we enter the cold cruel real world.
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"prejudice."
 
Dharma said:
"prejudice."
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There is quite a bit of discrimination against DOs by MDs for residencies and for jobs, also the general public discriminates against DOs. One of my friends in college, her cousin got into a DO school, one of the best ones, and she joked that she is not a real doctor because she is an "Osteopath", its this kind of attitude among many people that we have to face as DOs, not everyone has this kind of attitude but to say it does not exist would be false. Its kind of like saying racial or gender bias does not exist either, but both of them do as well in our society, its not so obvious.
 
Seth Joo said:
There is quite a bit of discrimination against DOs by MDs for residencies and for jobs, also the general public discriminates against DOs. One of my friends in college, her cousin got into a DO school, one of the best ones, and she joked that she is not a real doctor because she is an "Osteopath", its this kind of attitude among many people that we have to face as DOs, not everyone has this kind of attitude but to say it does not exist would be false. Its kind of like saying racial or gender bias does not exist either, but both of them do as well in our society, its not so obvious.
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The reason there is bias (amongst informed professionals, not premeds) has nothing to do with letters or med school. It's because many of the AOA residencies suck, and even the ones that dont, they just typically aren't as good.

Med school teaches you the basics, but you don't become a physician until residency. Nothing is more important than good, recognizable training. If you trained at a respectable ACGME residency, you will be looked at as any other graduate from that program.
 
Seth Joo said:
There is quite a bit of discrimination against DOs by MDs for residencies and for jobs, also the general public discriminates against DOs. One of my friends in college, her cousin got into a DO school, one of the best ones, and she joked that she is not a real doctor because she is an "Osteopath", its this kind of attitude among many people that we have to face as DOs, not everyone has this kind of attitude but to say it does not exist would be false. Its kind of like saying racial or gender bias does not exist either, but both of them do as well in our society, its not so obvious.
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There is most definitely bias. No doubt. I just hesitate describing it as a prejudice (or discrimination) per se, in regards to the traditional use of the word and the images it conjures. I know, semantics. We all chose to go DO and knew the game beforehand (or at least we should have). One does not choose race, gender, sexual preference, etc. Just have to live with the decision we made.
 
DopaDO said:
The reason there is bias (amongst informed professionals, not premeds) has nothing to do with letters or med school. It's because many of the AOA residencies suck, and even the ones that dont, they just typically aren't as good.

Med school teaches you the basics, but you don't become a physician until residency. Nothing is more important than good, recognizable training. If you trained at a respectable ACGME residency, you will be looked at as any other graduate from that program.
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Ouch.
 
Seth Joo said:
There is quite a bit of discrimination against DOs by MDs for residencies and for jobs, also the general public discriminates against DOs. One of my friends in college, her cousin got into a DO school, one of the best ones, and she joked that she is not a real doctor because she is an "Osteopath", its this kind of attitude among many people that we have to face as DOs, not everyone has this kind of attitude but to say it does not exist would be false. Its kind of like saying racial or gender bias does not exist either, but both of them do as well in our society, its not so obvious.
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While that may be true, these people are the minority and these attitudes are similar to that of a pre-med. There are plenty of D.O. attendings with no shortage of patients and are doing just fine.

As for the thread, I dont deny some bias exists, but there are many confounding factors that makes it difficult to compare md vs do. How many students have scored >260, with muliple pubs exist?

the resources at md institutions are more extensive to allow for research, etc. Nevertheless, given an applicamt with great scores, multiple pubs, they do fine. (our school matched someone into radonc 2 years ago, had the "superstar app")
 
Seth Joo said:
Ouch.
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Why "ouch"

DopaDO said:
The reason there is bias (amongst informed professionals, not premeds) has nothing to do with letters or med school. It's because many of the AOA residencies suck, and even the ones that dont, they just typically aren't as good.

Med school teaches you the basics, but you don't become a physician until residency. Nothing is more important than good, recognizable training. If you trained at a respectable ACGME residency, you will be looked at as any other graduate from that program.
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I agree for the most part..... Some specialties have a slightly narrower quality band. That said, on the whole, allopathic training sites are superior.
 
Seth Joo said:
There is quite a bit of discrimination against DOs by MDs for residencies and for jobs, also the general public discriminates against DOs. One of my friends in college, her cousin got into a DO school, one of the best ones, and she joked that she is not a real doctor because she is an "Osteopath", its this kind of attitude among many people that we have to face as DOs, not everyone has this kind of attitude but to say it does not exist would be false. Its kind of like saying racial or gender bias does not exist either, but both of them do as well in our society, its not so obvious.
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1. The "general public" doesn't know what a DO is they know you're a doctor, there really is no discrimination here.

2. It is actually illegal to discriminate for jobs because of the initials, acgme vs aoa training however is fair game to discriminate against.

3. Your cousins friends second niece on your father's side made a joke about not being a real doctor because she is attempting to deal with her grief of not getting into an MD school. That's her issue, no idea what the point of posting that was.
 
MLT2MT2DO said:
1. The "general public" doesn't know what a DO is they know you're a doctor, there really is no discrimination here.

2. It is actually illegal to discriminate for jobs because of the initials, acgme vs aoa training however is fair game to discriminate against.

3. Your cousins friends second niece on your father's side made a joke about not being a real doctor because she is attempting to deal with her grief of not getting into an MD school. That's her issue, no idea what the point of posting that was.
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I did not say everyone has this attitude but you will meet people during your career who will question your education and training because of the fact that you are a DO, an MD does not have to deal with this kind of bias among their colleagues or their patients. Most patients and colleagues are not discriminating, but there will always be a few who will use your credentials to justify mistreating you and it is not a pleasant feeling.

Your second point contradicts itself, you say its illegal to discriminate against DOs, but is fair game to discriminate against DOs who have AOA residency training.

Part 3, please re-read my statement, I said my friend was joking about her cousin being a DO, her cousin who is a DO is not ashamed of being a DO.
 
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In big cities, and at the University and "Communiversity" hospitals, at some of these places, credentialing committies have required that physicians seeking privileges be board certified through one of the ABMS boards (ie: have completed ACGME training)

This is sometimes speciality dependent, anesthesia and the surgical subspecialties come to mind, but I've seen places that even for IM require ABIM certification, interestingly for FM, AAFP or ACOFP was accepted. I think this is a reflection of just how poor some AOA residency training is.

The good news is however is that once the dust settles, whatever AOA programs are left standing will be ACGME accredited so this should be a moot point.
 
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Most DOs train at ACGME programs. So your "informed professionals" are actually not so informed if they indeed consider DOs and MDs differently, which is what was being discussed. Fellowships are a different topic altogether.
DopaDO said:
The reason there is bias (amongst informed professionals, not premeds) has nothing to do with letters or med school. It's because many of the AOA residencies suck, and even the ones that dont, they just typically aren't as good.

Med school teaches you the basics, but you don't become a physician until residency. Nothing is more important than good, recognizable training. If you trained at a respectable ACGME residency, you will be looked at as any other graduate from that program.
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AlteredScale said:
Would be great to see how these guys did board score wise to land UW IM.

Seriously my dream place to do IM. Seattle rocks.
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Seattle is beautiful, I'd love to end up there after school as well. I haven't bothered to look closely enough if those you are referring to fit the bill, but I know that because Washington also has a DO school in state, some of their grads make it into UW programs. Something like 60% of the students per class are from Washington, with UW undergrad being the largest feeder school.
 
SLC said:
Well that LSU program was pretty hard up to get me. They even offered to fly me out for another look the day before decision time. And they must've called/emailed 40 or 50 times.

But they can holdout, but that state needs all the help it can get.
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Did you not rank them?
 
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Noomm said:
Uhh I would. Family > some stupid school pride
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Calling BS. Even with nepotism, you wouldnt let your nephew who scraped through med school and barely passed boards anywhere near a top program where his mistakes could kill people. The Ivy league grads I've met take their schools very seriously, as they are pretty much the top of the totem pole. Think of a toned-down Andy from the office.
 
Shinobiz11 said:
Calling BS. Even with nepotism, you wouldnt let your nephew who scraped through med school and barely passed boards anywhere near a top program where his mistakes could kill people. The Ivy league grads I've met take their schools very seriously, as they are pretty much the top of the totem pole. Think of a toned-down Andy from the office.
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I guess that's the difference between me and most of the people who get into Ivy League schools.

Still, I think it's dumb to be blinded by your school pride like that.
 
Noomm said:
I guess that's the difference between me and most of the people who get into Ivy League schools.

Still, I think it's dumb to be blinded by your school pride like that.
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I'm talking about two different things though, incompetence from the family member and nepotism from the PD. School pride doesn't have to be involved. It doesn't matter if you went to Harvard, that was just the issue observed.

Would you let your incompetent family member into a top residency? Hell naw.
 
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