DO osteopathic unfriendly residencies.

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Would you let your incompetent family member into a top residency? Hell naw.

What I'm saying is I actually would. I understand that some people wouldn't - it just seems strange to me. Even the reasons you gave seem strange to me.

The way I look at it is the program/school isn't going to help you unless it serves its own interests. Meanwhile, the bond of being blood-related to someone is much more powerful. Because of this, I have way more loyalty to my family than to any specific program.

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What I'm saying is I actually would. I understand that some people wouldn't - it just seems strange to me. Even the reasons you gave seem strange to me.

The way I look at it is the program/school isn't going to help you unless it serves its own interests. Meanwhile, the bond of being blood-related to someone is much more powerful. Because of this, I have way more loyalty to my family than to any specific program.

This isn't about loyalty to your family. This is about making sure patients get treatment from an adequate physician. The sickest people go to the best hospitals. If everyone knows you're the uncle of the killer-intern, how would that make you feel? You're acting extremely unethically if you think it's OK.
 
This isn't about loyalty to your family. This is about making sure patients get treatment from an adequate physician.
If someone passes medical school and all his boards, I would say that he is an adequate physician. If he isn't, it probably has nothing to do with his intelligence. He probably just has some inherent character flaw, in which case I wouldn't feel comfortable recommending him for a position but that is neither here nor there. What I'm talking about is someone who graduated from a less prestigious medical school. If the worst mark on his record was graduating from LECOM, you can bet that I'm going to be recommending him.

The sickest people go to the best hospitals.

Do you have any proof for this statement, or is it an assumption that you pulled out of thin air? In addition to this, how do you quantify the "sickness" of a patient? That seems like an arbitrary value.

Not to mention I would guess that it's generally not the sickest people that go to the best hospitals, but the richest people.

If everyone knows you're the uncle of the killer-intern, how would that make you feel?

Look - in my opinion, 99% of the people who graduate medical school (MD or DO or even overseas MD) and pass Step 1 aren't going to end up being "killer interns." Of course everybody makes mistakes, but if you get a reputation as a killer intern, it's probably due to some inherent character flaw that has nothing to do with how smart you are.

You're acting extremely unethically if you think it's OK.

LOL at bringing out the unethical card. Burnett's Law in action.
 
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This isn't about loyalty to your family. This is about making sure patients get treatment from an adequate physician. The sickest people go to the best hospitals. If everyone knows you're the uncle of the killer-intern, how would that make you feel? You're acting extremely unethically if you think it's OK.

I don't know anything about you, but this screams premed or early med student. The poster above me is spot on. If you pass boards, knowledge wise you're fine. One of my attendings tells us all the time that medicine is only 10% knowledge. With the team approach, "killer" interns are rare or pretty much nonexistent. Very little that you learn in med school really matters. You don't learn how to be a physician until residency. Medical school should only be about making yourself the best residency applicant possible. Don't fall into the trap of thinking medical school makes you a physician.
 
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EM: LSU-New Orleans,- No DO rotations per their website: "Note that LSU-NO only accepts students from AAMC accredited medical schools." but for applications: "Outstanding applicants with previous training, DO degrees or non-traditional medical training will be considered.". I've never heard of or seen a DO match there. The IM program has only 1 from PCOM-GA.

LSU-Baton Rouge is now DO unfriendly (Almost half the classes used to be DO/Carib) -current 4th year on EMS Med Direction/Community Paramedicine elective in BR was told they weren't going to taking any DO's. I was told by a couple of faculty members not to waste an away rotation there (no correlation between rotations and matching). They now have the same rule about AAMC accredited schools that LSU-NO does. Ironically enough, they have a DO attending who graduated from the "old" (pre hospital closure and program movement) program

Good points about the LSU-Baton Rouge EM program.
They've shifted their primary criteria in ranking applicants to a single concern - board scores. And, specifically the USMLE. Unless you've scored above the first standard deviation (245 or thereabouts) on the USMLE, then the probability of the Baton Rouge EM residency program taking you is minimal. It's been mentioned/rumored that their rank list is simply ordered by the applicants board scores.

Also, good point about rotating there. Unless your USMLE board scores are stellar, don't bother. Rotating with this program is not related to being accepted, or even getting a higher rank. That is, unless your board scores were already extremely high, then rotating with them doesn't matter anyway.
 
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I would suggest only adding names to this list if you know for sure that they do not accept DO's as residence. It only took me 3 posts in to this thread to find disputable information about programs who do not accept DO's. For instance the top 20 Anesthesia programs, Johns hopkins in ranked in top 5 and they have 3 DO's in their residency program and I only looked at PGY-1. I think you do everyone a disservice by adding programs to this list if you aren't 100 percent sure, don't make a list based off of assumptions.
 
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But is this the honest-to-God JHU program, or one of their satellite sites? Akin to Mayo-Rochester vs Mayo-AZ.

I would suggest only adding names to this list if you know for sure that they do not accept DO's as residence. It only took me 3 posts in to this thread to find disputable information about programs who do not accept DO's. For instance the top 20 Anesthesia programs, Johns hopkins in ranked in top 5 and they have 3 DO's in their residency program and I only looked at PGY-1. I think you do everyone a disservice by adding programs to this list if you aren't 100 percent sure, don't make a list based off of assumptions.
 
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I took the link directly from doximity, they rank programs. That's where I found them, I'll double check to make sure though. I was trying to get the point across that people with no real knowledge of the programs are making assumptions that DO's can't get in.
 
I double checked and it is absolutely the Johns Hopkins in Baltimore. Breaking barriers
 
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I would suggest only adding names to this list if you know for sure that they do not accept DO's as residence. It only took me 3 posts in to this thread to find disputable information about programs who do not accept DO's. For instance the top 20 Anesthesia programs, Johns hopkins in ranked in top 5 and they have 3 DO's in their residency program and I only looked at PGY-1. I think you do everyone a disservice by adding programs to this list if you aren't 100 percent sure, don't make a list based off of assumptions.

If you hadn't clicked on this thread hoping to get offended you would've noticed that in post #5 someone made the exact point you thought you were so clever for making.
 
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At no point was i offended, nor did I assume I was being clever for making the comment.
 
If you hadn't clicked on this thread hoping to get offended you would've noticed that in post #5 someone made the exact point you thought you were so clever for making.

Not really sure what your point is here. Should we ban all posts that provide the same info or make the same point as a previous post? In that case, maybe you should limit yourself to one "DO's can't get a top-tier residency" post per thread.

To be clear, I don't have a problem with you reiterating things, but to call someone out for reiterating a point made in a previous post seems kind of petty.
 
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Not really sure what your point is here. Should we ban all posts that provide the same info or make the same point as a previous post? In that case, maybe you should limit yourself to one "DO's can't get a top-tier residency" post per thread.

To be clear, I don't have a problem with you reiterating things, but to call someone out for reiterating a point made in a previous post seems kind of petty.

The poster read 3 posts in a thread with > 100 posts then he works himself into a frenzy and makes several posts about something that he would have seen was already addressed had he read just 5% of the posts. If you don't find that ridiculous then I can't help you.

Oh and it's now just a matter of time until @Goro adds "DOs match at HOPKINS!!!" without any context to the well funded advertising campaign that is his sdn persona.
 
I never stated that I didn't read all 100 posts, I just stated that 3 posts in I had found mistakes and I wasn't worked up into a frenzy. If I came across that way then I apologize that was not my intent. Quite honestly my responses were more directed at two posters on here that I personally know and I don't think they should sell themselves short by thinking they can't accomplish something. I believe in them and I believe they can do great things as physicians and as people. Perhaps I should have directed my responses specifically toward them. I am not some young kid who knows nothing about the world and is naive about the way life works. You are a physician and could provide some great insight and direction to a lot of people but instead you utilize your time on SDN to rip into medical students and have no intent on ever providing useful information.
 
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I never stated that I didn't read all 100 posts, I just stated that 3 posts in I had found mistakes and I wasn't worked up into a frenzy. If I came across that way then I apologize that was not my intent. Quite honestly my responses were more directed at two posters on here that I personally know and I don't think they should sell themselves short by thinking they can't accomplish something. I believe in them and I believe they can do great things as physicians and as people. Perhaps I should have directed my responses specifically toward them. I am not some young kid who knows nothing about the world and is naive about the way life works. You are a physician and could provide some great insight and direction to a lot of people but instead you utilize your time on SDN to rip into medical students and have no intent on ever providing useful information.

I see. Time to retreat back to the parts of SDN where people are dealing in reality. Bye.
 
I see. Time to retreat back to the parts of SDN where people are dealing in reality. Bye.

What reality are you living in where there's even a tiny part of sdn that isn't insane?
 
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What reality are you living in where there's even a tiny part of sdn that isn't insane?

A majority of posts in allo are sane as long as the moderators filter the crap that finds its way there from pre-allo and posts in the specialty and sub-specialty forums
 
A majority of posts in allo are sane as long as the moderators filter the crap that finds its way there from pre-allo and posts in the specialty and sub-specialty forums

I was original joking with you, but if you think that virtually all the allo posts are sane and are pretty much only derailed by non-allo posters you're the insane one.
Half of the Osteo nonsense is from visitors from allo ;)
 
Really. It's mostly this one IMG that keeps swinging by and creating a ruckus.
 
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Really. It's mostly this one IMG that keeps swinging by and creating a ruckus.

:laugh:

oh look it's 2013 all over again with some random DO med student who can't use an internet forum accuses me of being an IMG
 
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So, it's something that many people have been believing for years about you? Good to know I'm not alone.

Well, if it walks like a duck...

not being alone doesn't make you any less wrong or look any less like an idiot

i have almost 3,000 posts over the last 7 years.... try looking at them before some other stupid BS comes out of your mouth
 
not being alone doesn't make you any less wrong or look any less like an idiot

i have almost 3,000 posts over the last 7 years.... try looking at them before some other stupid BS comes out of your mouth

That you always assume that nobody has ever looked at any other posts is how we got here. Maybe you should stop and consider that maybe I have read many of your posts and even liked many of them when they were made, but still believe you are an IMG like most others on here who care enough to consider it.

Your posts are often insightful and informative, it's just you can't seem to help from making many of them sound so critical and pompous that any value that they have is often lost on readers. It makes it look like you're covering/compensating for something whether that is the case or not.

Tl;dr surprise! I actually HAVE read many of your posts and either drop the attitude or deal with the fact people will consider you're compensating for something (IMG in this case)
 
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He's outright said many, many times that he is a US MD grad, and is "verified" per SDN. In addition, misrepresenting your credentials is a TOS violation.

The most logical conclusion is what he says he is. Everything else is just trying to attack the messenger.

Then, I'm going on the record that I'm a freaking dragon. Roar!!!
:)

I wonder if SDN will verify that for me... Maybe if I burned a village or two? Maybe ate a knight?
 
A majority of posts in allo are sane as long as the moderators filter the crap that finds its way there from pre-allo and posts in the specialty and sub-specialty forums

This place definitely is more sane than allo. I feel like the comments here have a lot more logic behind them than there.
 
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I didn't mean you should look at my posts in this forum. If you look at my post history you'll see that I've been posting in my med school's thread...for years.
 
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I didn't mean you should look at my posts in this forum. If you look at my post history you'll see that I've been posting in my med school's thread...for years.

Eh. That's weak evidence. I'm gonna start posting in the Hopkins page. I'll just submit that as proof come resident time. ;)

I actually don't bear you any animus, and is southernsurgeon will vouch for you, that means something. I just think you come out a little angry/arrogant whether you mean to or not.
It's ok. I'm definitely a smart a** so I won't hold it against you too much.
 
I would be careful bashing IMGS, some are more talented and intelligent than either one of us will ever be.

I am DEFINITELY not bashing IMG because you're absolutely right.
 
OP, I think the first page of this thread gave you as good an answer you'll get. Regarding the converse of your question, here's a fantastic resource to see what Radiology programs interview/matched DO's:

http://www.auntminnie.com/forum/tm.aspx?m=381222
 
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OP, I think the first page of this thread gave you as good an answer you'll get. Regarding the converse of your question, here's a fantastic resource to see what Radiology programs interview/matched DO's:

http://www.auntminnie.com/forum/tm.aspx?m=381222

Rads is an interesting field. The USMLE score is pretty high (240ish) but there are also a lot of spots (1100) compared to other competitive specialties which are usually 300 or less spots (except ortho which has like 700).
Basically, a D.O. can expect to match rads but usually will not match at a top 50ish program.
There was a person that made an unofficial "ranking" and here's top 50 and the ones in the top 50 that take D.O.s highlighted in bold (http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/ultimate-radiology-rankings.1127962/)

1. MGH 26 points
2. Johns Hopkins 25.75
3. Mayo - MN 25.5
4. UCSF 25
5. Duke 24
6. MIR 24
7. UPMC 24
8. Penn 23.5
9. Stanford 23.25
10. UCLA 22.25
11. BWH 21.75
12. Michigan 21.75
13. CCF 21.75
14. UCSD 21.5
15. NYP - Cornell 20.75
16. Emory 20.25
17. Univ. of Wash 19.75
18. NYU 19.75
19. NYP - Columbia 19.25
20. Indiana 18.5
21. Yale 18
22. Wisconsin 17
23. Wake Forest 16.75
24. Northwestern 16.75
25. Iowa 16.5
26. Vanderbilt 16.5
27. Thomas Jefferson 16.25
28. USC 14.75
29. UAB 14.75
30. Virginia 14.25
31. UT-Houston 14
32. Case Western 14
33. UTSW 13.5
34. Oregon 12.75
35. Colorado 12.25
36. UC-Davis 11.75
37. Utah 11.25
38. Dartmouth 11.25
39. Maryland 10.75
40. Med Coll. WI 10.75
41. MUSC 10.25
42. Beaumont 10
43. Cincinnati 9.75
44. Cedars-Sinai - LA 9.75
45. Univ. of Chicago 9.75
46. BID 9.25
47. Minnesota 9.25
48. Arizona 9
49. Baylor Univ. 8.5
50. North Carolina 8.5

 
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Rads is an interesting field. The USMLE score is pretty high (240ish) but there are also a lot of spots (1100) compared to other competitive specialties which are usually 300 or less spots (except ortho which has like 700).
Basically, a D.O. can expect to match rads but usually will not match at a top 50ish program.
There was a person that made an unofficial "ranking" and here's top 50 and the ones in the top 50 that take D.O.s highlighted in bold (http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/ultimate-radiology-rankings.1127962/)

1. MGH 26 points
2. Johns Hopkins 25.75
3. Mayo - MN 25.5
4. UCSF 25
5. Duke 24
6. MIR 24
7. UPMC 24
8. Penn 23.5
9. Stanford 23.25
10. UCLA 22.25
11. BWH 21.75
12. Michigan 21.75
13. CCF 21.75
14. UCSD 21.5
15. NYP - Cornell 20.75
16. Emory 20.25
17. Univ. of Wash 19.75
18. NYU 19.75
19. NYP - Columbia 19.25
20. Indiana 18.5
21. Yale 18
22. Wisconsin 17
23. Wake Forest 16.75
24. Northwestern 16.75
25. Iowa 16.5
26. Vanderbilt 16.5
27. Thomas Jefferson 16.25
28. USC 14.75
29. UAB 14.75
30. Virginia 14.25
31. UT-Houston 14
32. Case Western 14
33. UTSW 13.5
34. Oregon 12.75
35. Colorado 12.25
36. UC-Davis 11.75
37. Utah 11.25
38. Dartmouth 11.25
39. Maryland 10.75
40. Med Coll. WI 10.75
41. MUSC 10.25
42. Beaumont 10
43. Cincinnati 9.75

44. Cedars-Sinai - LA 9.75
45. Univ. of Chicago 9.75
46. BID 9.25
47. Minnesota 9.25
48. Arizona 9
49. Baylor Univ. 8.5
50. North Carolina 8.5

Nice, man. Add UCD and UCSD to the list, as I met a DO Rads resident at UCD, and here's a link to a current (might be outdated) R4 at UCSD.
 
Nice. California is tough though because they usually only interview West coast people regardless of stats. Texas is similar.
Main point is that rads is doable but there's still bias at the top. I got some of this info from a guy who was no. 1 in his class and 260+, 265+ and as you can see even he didn't get the tippy top places.
 
Obviously I don't have much experience on this stuff but from what I have gathered thus far: many university residency programs are reliant on consistent and trust-worthy evaluations from clinical faculty. Evaluations during clerkships for many DO schools are highly, highly variable. When you are with a preceptor you can make friends with them and collect a great LOR. When you are on a resident based rotation, you have the assessment of an entire team including a program director who can provide a letter that is trustworthy to other PD's. It's a much more standardized method that is non-existent when you are rotating through your IM block at an outpatient clinic.

Additionally, I think there are many many other factors beyond a great step score, shelf scores, and LOR's that PDs at academic programs look at. I would assume research to be a key component for applications and again, many DO programs do not have the resources needed to pad their CV and build the scholastic component of their career. A quick search on the NIH reporter shows that a "top-tier" DO school like WesternU-COMP has a grand total of 6 NIH funded projects (at the R15 level). This is unacceptable as students in pomona truly have no where to go to reach out for research opps and makes them sitting ducks while MD students at UCSF and UCSD have the pleasure of walking across a sky bridge to speak with an HHMI professor of medicine to conduct strong and impacting research that blows any 240+ DO student with an OMM research poster out of the water.
 
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In my mind, the biggest motivation of "top" programs across all disciplines is what we term "prestige." How is this measured? Through public and professional opinion.

What separates Mayo, MGH, UCSF, and others from each other academically and clinically? Probably nothing. Hence, we are left with this nebulous "prestige."

And what could possibly hurt a program's "prestige" the most? When prospective residents and peers scroll through a program and see the letters D and O after a resident's name.
What once was a prestigious program is now "they take D.O.s so they must not be as competitive/good as 'so and so.'''

This is real and I've heard it numerous times. Biggest evidence is to look through these top places and see that they are perfectly willing to take IMG/FMG. Why? Because of the letters M and D.
 
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In my mind, the biggest motivation of "top" programs across all disciplines is what we term "prestige." How is this measured? Through public and professional opinion.

What separates Mayo, MGH, UCSF, and others from each other academically and clinically? Probably nothing. Hence, we are left with this nebulous "prestige."

And what could possibly hurt a program's "prestige" the most? When prospective residents and peers scroll through a program and see the letters D and O after a resident's name.
What once was a prestigious program is now "they take D.O.s so they must not be as competitive/good as 'so and so.'''

This is real and I've heard it numerous times. Biggest evidence is to look through these top places and see that they are perfectly willing to take IMG/FMG. Why? Because of the letters M and D.

Pretty sure the FMG/IMG's at the especially prestigious places are from very well regarded foreign medical schools
 
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Pretty sure the FMG/IMG's at the especially prestigious places are from very well regarded foreign medical schools

What? You trying to say MGH doesn't take too many from bob's crab shack and medical degree emporium?
 
What? You trying to say MGH doesn't take too many from bob's crab shack and medical degree emporium?

My point was that there's more that goes into the selection of these FMG's than "hey, not a DO, that's good enough for me!" If you have a resident who was a top student from a top medical school in Germany with meaningful research and fantastic step scores, it's not like they gave that spot to him instead of a solid osteopathic applicant because they didn't want DO's dirtying up the place.
 
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My point was that there's more that goes into the selection of these FMG's than "hey, not a DO, that's good enough for me!" If you have a resident who was a top student from a top medical school in Germany with meaningful research and fantastic step scores, it's not like they gave that spot to him instead of a solid osteopathic applicant because they didn't want DO's dirtying up the place.

Doesn't that also mean that the best school in Germany is considered better than the best osteopathic schools in the U.S.?
 
What's the best osteopathic school in the US?

I meant to state it in plural form and hypothetically speaking. Would school like TCOM, MSU, DMU, KCU, etc. compare to the best German school? From your statement, it seems like in the eyes of certain PDs it doesn't.
 
I meant to state it in plural form and hypothetically speaking. Would school like TCOM, MSU, DMU, KCU, etc. compare to the best German school? From your statement, it seems like in the eyes of certain PDs it doesn't.

For what it's worth, I've visited Greifswald and by all measures, objective and subjective, it blows away almost all MD schools in the US. PDs may not view it this way, but comparing DO schools to the top German schools seems ludicrous if you've seen both (and I'm attending a DO school).

In general there seems to be a stigma towards the quality of international medical education, but the US isn't exactly crushing the healthcare efficiency rankings.
 
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For what it's worth, I've visited Greifswald and by all measures, objective and subjective, it blows away almost all MD schools in the US. PDs may not view it this way, but comparing DO schools to the top German schools seems ludicrous if you've seen both (and I'm attending a DO school).

In general there seems to be a stigma towards the quality of international medical education, but the US isn't exactly crushing the healthcare efficiency rankings.

If they are seeing it in the way you are describing, then I think that is logical. However, if they are seeing it like a brand-name, then that is superficial.
 
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