DO osteopathic unfriendly residencies.

[kirkirkir]

Let's compile a list of places that refuse to take DOs. Perhaps something good can come out of it.

EDIT: To make this efficient, let's do this:

Specialty:
Geographic Location:
Institution:
What you've heard/experienced:

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[67552931811]

 

[metromed]

Doximity top 20 in any field, except family/peds/pmr/er.

 

[AlteredScale]

Let's compile a list of places that refuse to take DOs. Perhaps something good can come out of it.

Internal Medicine- BWH, MGH, NYP Columbia/Cornell, NYU Langone, WashUSL, UW (there is one from Touro but it is prelim), UCSD, UCLA Ronald Reagan, UCSF, Stanford, CU Denver, Northwestern, Prtizker...

 

[67552931811]

Doximity top 20 in any field, except family/peds/pmr/er.

Lol

Also, top 20 in gas is attainable.

 

[Stedari]

Internal Medicine- BWH, MGH, NYP Columbia/Cornell, NYU Langone, WashUSL, UW (there is one from Touro but it is prelim), UCSD, UCLA Ronald Reagan, UCSF, Stanford, CU Denver, Northwestern, Prtizker...

CU Denver is not off-limits. I interviewed there along with quite a few other DOs and a girl from AZCOM matched there this year. Personally, I think the residents are overworked and 4 hospitals with Denver traffic is ridiculous... but that's just me.

 

[AlteredScale]

CU Denver is not off-limits. I interviewed there along with quite a few other DOs and a girl from AZCOM matched there this year. Personally, I think the residents are overworked and 4 hospitals with Denver traffic is ridiculous... but that's just me.

Didn't know that but that's good to hear!

Still bummed that they only let DO students rotate PC specialties and anything outside of that they smack you with a couple grand of a fee.

 

[Goro]

Stanford PM&R loves DO grads; ditto NYU. The glass ceiling will be cracking. I met a DO the other day who was the very first to get into a highly competitive ACGME residency in, well, a highly competitive field that takes care of very sick people with very different and sometimes puzzling conditions. I know my students are on these boards I don't want someone saying "oh, so you were at Dr X's lecture? You're Goro!!!"

The Meat Torpedo is overly fond of stating, ad nauseum, that NYU IM refuses to take DOs. So maybe one of you will do an audition rotation there and crack the ceiling?

Internal Medicine- BWH, MGH, NYP Columbia/Cornell, NYU Langone, WashUSL, UW (there is one from Touro but it is prelim), UCSD, UCLA Ronald Reagan, UCSF, Stanford, CU Denver, Northwestern, Prtizker...

 

[Spikebd]

Internal Medicine- BWH, MGH, NYP Columbia/Cornell, NYU Langone, WashUSL, UW (there is one from Touro but it is prelim), UCSD, UCLA Ronald Reagan, UCSF, Stanford, CU Denver, Northwestern, Prtizker...

UW has DO's in their IM residency. A quick google search shows this

 

[kenjixshadow]

CU Denver is not off-limits. I interviewed there along with quite a few other DOs and a girl from AZCOM matched there this year. Personally, I think the residents are overworked and 4 hospitals with Denver traffic is ridiculous... but that's just me.

It wasn't that bad a few years ago...until weed became state legal. I think all CU Denver residents in general are overworked.

Didn't know that but that's good to hear!

Still bummed that they only let DO students rotate PC specialties and anything outside of that they smack you with a couple grand of a fee.

My mentor told me that they will eventually get rid of the fees, but who knows when. I'm not holding my breath.

 

[Spikebd]

Anyway these discussions are way too common right now. Apply to where you want to go, even if it doesn't have DO's. Don't expect much but still have hope for a surprise or two. Apply to plenty of places you would consider "back-ups" or safety spots. Don't get stuck on one city or program. Even if you have a 260/260 expect to have a lot of let downs. But I would still apply to any program you want, it's just money. This applies to every specialty. Shoot for the top but be 100% ready to take a spot you consider beneath you and your application.

 

[deleted564680]

Radiology - even in a "down" cycle right now with poor job market, no top 15 programs will interview you and only 3 in the top 35-40 will interview a DO. Those are Cleveland Clinic, UPMC, and Yale

Neurosurgery - Basically no program no matter what...yes there have been some DOs match at Kansas, LSU, Missouri, and a few others but it's exceedingly rare and takes a near perfect application in addition to luck, special circumstances, or a connection.

The poster who mentioned looking at the top 20 or so on doximity is on the right track. I would addend that to say any specialty that has a board score average above the mean, probably the top 30-40 programs will not interview/take DOs unless it's a special case.
Also, it's WORSE now that the merger went through. There are a lot of PDs on both sides who are frustrated and I've seen/heard of MORE bias the last 2 years than the previous 5-10 years - mostly in the surgical subspecialties.

 

[Doctor Bob]

The glass ceiling will be cracking. I met a DO the other day who was the very first to get into a highly competitive ACGME residency in...

Same for fellowships.
I'm the only DO in my fellowship program, and we're one of the top programs in the country (although the residency program that usually feeds this fellowship doesn't take DOs that I know of). So as long as I don't set the place on fire (in a bad way), hopefully they'll be receptive to interviewing DOs in the future.

Although most people don't know I'm a DO here because my badge, login, e-signature, etc, etc, all says MD because the computer system here doesn't give any other option if you're a physician.

But by the time you get to fellowship, it's less about your degree and more about residency performance.

 

[Seth Joo]

Internal Medicine- BWH, MGH, NYP Columbia/Cornell, NYU Langone, WashUSL, UW (there is one from Touro but it is prelim), UCSD, UCLA Ronald Reagan, UCSF, Stanford, CU Denver, Northwestern, Prtizker...

Those are some of the best residency programs in the country, even mid tier MDs cannot get the time of day there.

 

[deleted564680]

Shoot for the top but be 100% ready to take a spot you consider beneath you and your application.

This quote pretty much sums it up. Rare to find anyone who matches or exceeds their app if they are a DO. I actually don't know of any such examples.

 

[AlteredScale]

UW has DO's in their IM residency. A quick google search shows this

UW? UofWashington in Seattle? I just checked and there's only one DO and she's in a prelim spot. IM at U Washington is very competitive.

Perhaps you are thinking of U of Wisconsin.

 

[AlteredScale]

Those are some of the best residency programs in the country, even mid tier MDs cannot get the time of day there.

Exactly. If the cream of the crop is there for the PD's they have no reason to even look at independent applicants including FMG/IMG, Reapps, or DO's.

Will that change when DO grads become NMRP internal applicants? My guess is probably not.

 

[AlteredScale]

The Meat Torpedo is overly fond of stating, ad nauseum, that NYU IM refuses to take DOs. So maybe one of you will do an audition rotation there and crack the ceiling?

My PI who was an APD for IM at UCSD informed me that connections can really make a difference and break barriers in getting into competitive programs. It would be nice to try and crack that ceiling!

 

[Goro]

And there ya go!!

My PI who was an APD for IM at UCSD informed me that connections can really make a difference and break barriers in getting into competitive programs. It would be nice to try and crack that ceiling!

 

[Dharma]

Doximity top 20 in any field, except family/peds/pmr/er.

Nope. Maybe top 5 -10 in Psych. Possibly less.

 

[acapnial]

UW? UofWashington in Seattle? I just checked and there's only one DO and she's in a prelim spot. IM at U Washington is very competitive.

Perhaps you are thinking of U of Wisconsin.

http://depts.washington.edu/uwmedres/people/roster.htm

Just scroll a little farther down. From the same lovely school.

 

[Promethean]

retracting my claim until I can find some evidence.

I repeated what a faculty member at my school told me, but I don't want to be spreading rumors unless I verify it for myself.

 

[cylondoctor]

LOL. Hopkins just took a LECOM grad for their Neurosurg program.

You can discount that as a unicorn, but come on... Johns Hopkins isn't exactly an institution with a shortage of quality applicants.

where did you hear that? As far as I know Rochester was the only acgme program to take a D.O. in the last 3 years.

 

[AlteredScale]

http://depts.washington.edu/uwmedres/people/roster.htm

Just scroll a little farther down. From the same lovely school.

Huh, didn't see that. Thanks!

 

[Promethean]

where did you hear that? As far as I know Rochester was the only acgme program to take a D.O. in the last 3 years.

See above. I had edited even before your reply, because I realized that I hadn't fact checked the claim for myself.

I did notice one of the current interns has an uncommon name... and so does a DO internal med doc in Texas. So, it is possible that someone just assumed, when they heard that person got a spot at JH, that it was the one that they knew. That is how rumors get going, after all.

 

[Fox800]

EM: Vanderbilt and Carolinas for sure. I would also wager that Stanford and NYU EM have never taken an DO.

 

[IslandStyle808]

http://depts.washington.edu/uwmedres/people/roster.htm

Just scroll a little farther down. From the same lovely school.

Huh, didn't see that. Thanks!

Internal Medicine (Categorical)
One from Rocky Vista that is an R2.
One from DMU that is an R3.

Then there was two others that were preliminary (one Rocky Vista (doing a neuro at UW), and one Touro).

More surprising than I thought...

 

[AlteredScale]

Internal Medicine (Categorical)
One from Rocky Vista that is an R2.
One from DMU that is an R3.

Then there was two others that were preliminary (one Rocky Vista (doing a neuro at UW), and one Touro).

More surprising than I thought...

Would be great to see how these guys did board score wise to land UW IM.

Seriously my dream place to do IM. Seattle rocks.

 

[Shinobiz11]

Would be great to see how these guys did board score wise to land UW IM.

Seriously my dream place to do IM. Seattle rocks.

According to match lists, someone from DCOM did it a couple of years ago as well.

Is there a way to search residents that matched to a program? The list on AOA site is really bad and unorganized

 

[iwillnevergiveup]

According to match lists, someone from DCOM did it a couple of years ago as well.

Is there a way to search residents matched to a program? The list on AOA site is really bad and unorganized

DO matched into UW anes program if that counts for anything. (still pretty impressive i say)

 

[Shinobiz11]

DO matched into UW anes program if that counts for anything. (still pretty impressive i say)

From 2011, the inaugural class. It could have been preliminary though. No one seems to acknowledge it in this post though

http://www.forums.studentdoctor.net/index.php?threads/810670/

 

[67552931811]

DO matched into UW anes program if that counts for anything. (still pretty impressive i say)

They have quite a few DO residents.

 

[NoLollipops4U]

DO matched into UW anes program if that counts for anything. (still pretty impressive i say)

I know the guy though and he's a beast. Very smart, top of class, top board scores, involved in all the clubs etc

 

[SLC]

This quote pretty much sums it up. Rare to find anyone who matches or exceeds their app if they are a DO. I actually don't know of any such examples.

It happens, all the time actually!

And I can personally verify that there are multiple FM programs that are very unlikely to interview/rank DO's, but my program is a Doximity top 15 and is extremely DO friendly, to the point that we have mandatory OMM clinic for DO's and most of the MD's take time to learn some OMM too.

 

[deleted564680]

It happens, all the time actually!

What I mean is that a DO with certain stats such at 260/265, research, no. 1 in class, etc. that would normally net him MGH or UCSF in a field if he/she was an MD would never get that as a DO. They may get an "upper tier" but not equal to their application. There are DOs that get good places BUT if they were MDs they would get the tippy top. That's what I mean when what they get is not equal to their application.

 

[hallowmann]

...
Also, it's WORSE now that the merger went through. There are a lot of PDs on both sides who are frustrated and I've seen/heard of MORE bias the last 2 years than the previous 5-10 years - mostly in the surgical subspecialties.

I've actually heard the exact opposite repeatedly from PGY-1s and PGY-2s. It may very well be region and program-specific, but it's certainly not as clear-cut/general as you imply.

 

[Mad Jack]

Same for fellowships.
I'm the only DO in my fellowship program, and we're one of the top programs in the country (although the residency program that usually feeds this fellowship doesn't take DOs that I know of). So as long as I don't set the place on fire (in a bad way), hopefully they'll be receptive to interviewing DOs in the future.

Although most people don't know I'm a DO here because my badge, login, e-signature, etc, etc, all says MD because the computer system here doesn't give any other option if you're a physician.

But by the time you get to fellowship, it's less about your degree and more about residency performance.

Yale took a DO Pulm/CCM fellow recently. My mind practically exploded.

 

[Seth Joo]

Yale took a DO Pulm/CCM fellow recently. My mind practically exploded.

Some big programs take "Token" DOs every now and then, I ran into a DO attending at Hopkins this past June. You see them here and there but its not easy to get into a big academic place as a DO, mid tier academic places are doable though.

 

[Goro]

One nice thing I'm seeing from this thread is that more people believe in lighting a candle than cursing the darkness.


That sound you hear is the glass ceiling cracking, Jack.

Yale took a DO Pulm/CCM fellow recently. My mind practically exploded.

True! But tokens have a way of becoming commonplace after a while. Get your foot into the door, and the door tends to swing open from that point on, not closed.

Some big programs take "Token" DOs every now and then, I ran into a DO attending at Hopkins this past June. You see them here and there but its not easy to get into a big academic place as a DO, mid tier academic places are doable though.

 

[SLC]

What I mean is that a DO with certain stats such at 260/265, research, no. 1 in class, etc. that would normally net him MGH or UCSF in a field if he/she was an MD would never get that as a DO. They may get an "upper tier" but not equal to their application. There are DOs that get good places BUT if they were MDs they would get the tippy top. That's what I mean when what they get is not equal to their application.

I have a classmate who matched to UCSF just this year. It's a top 4 program in that field. I don't even think she had some incredibly stellar application or anything.

Had another classmate match to UCI, he's the only DO in that program at the moment. His app was good, but not 260/265 as you say. And yet another classmate matched to UC Davis, and I think she's the only DO in that program too. Also, good candidate but not a perfect application (at least I don't think she was).

Like I said, my program is a top 15 in my field, my app was far from perfect, but my field is DO friendly and my program loves DO's so it's not that special in my case. Still, people out match their competitiveness all the time. Yes there are places that just straight up won't match a DO no matter how incredible they are, but there are places who usually wouldn't match a DO but are willing to take the right one.

 

[deleted564680]

I have a classmate who matched to UCSF just this year. It's a top 4 program in that field. I don't even think she had some incredibly stellar application or anything.

Had another classmate match to UCI, he's the only DO in that program at the moment. His app was good, but not 260/265 as you say. And yet another classmate matched to UC Davis, and I think she's the only DO in that program too. Also, good candidate but not a perfect application (at least I don't think she was).

Like I said, my program is a top 15 in my field, my app was far from perfect, but my field is DO friendly and my program loves DO's so it's not that special in my case. Still, people out match their competitiveness all the time. Yes there are places that just straight up won't match a DO no matter how incredible they are, but there are places who usually wouldn't match a DO but are willing to take the right one.

I'm referring to competitive specialties only - NSG, ENT, Ortho, Derm, etc. Those that have avg USMLE > 240.

 

[SLC]

I'm referring to competitive specialties only - NSG, ENT, Ortho, Derm, etc. Those that have avg USMLE > 240.

Well, you can't just limit that to DO's then. Because a majority of MD applicants aren't sniffing those programs either.

I'm just pointing out that there are programs that have average board scores in the range of what you post, maybe not in those fields, but the individual programs are highly competitive, and DO's do break in to these places somewhat frequently.

The UofU ER residency took a DO this year for crying out loud. They don't even allow DO's to rotate with them, or at any of the community hospitals in Salt Lake City. They are a high quality program too! But somebody broke in there this year. Stuff like this happens every single year.

 

[Shinobiz11]

Keep adding to the list, but we should all be working our butts off so we can join those who are breaking down borders

 

[CajunMedic]

EM: LSU-New Orleans,- No DO rotations per their website: "Note that LSU-NO only accepts students from AAMC accredited medical schools." but for applications: "Outstanding applicants with previous training, DO degrees or non-traditional medical training will be considered.". I've never heard of or seen a DO match there. The IM program has only 1 from PCOM-GA.

LSU-Baton Rouge is now DO unfriendly (Almost half the classes used to be DO/Carib) -current 4th year on EMS Med Direction/Community Paramedicine elective in BR was told they weren't going to taking any DO's. I was told by a couple of faculty members not to waste an away rotation there (no correlation between rotations and matching). They now have the same rule about AAMC accredited schools that LSU-NO does. Ironically enough, they have a DO attending who graduated from the "old" (pre hospital closure and program movement) program

 

[AlteredScale]

EM: LSU-New Orleans,- No DO rotations per their website: "Note that LSU-NO only accepts students from AAMC accredited medical schools." but for applications: "Outstanding applicants with previous training, DO degrees or non-traditional medical training will be considered.". I've never heard of or seen a DO match there. The IM program has only 1 from PCOM-GA.

LSU-Baton Rouge is now DO unfriendly (Almost half the classes used to be DO/Carib) -current 4th year on EMS Med Direction/Community Paramedicine elective in BR was told they weren't going to taking any DO's. I was told by a couple of faculty members not to waste an away rotation there (no correlation between rotations and matching). They now have the same rule about AAMC accredited schools that LSU-NO does. Ironically enough, they have a DO attending who graduated from the "old" (pre hospital closure and program movement) program

That's so lame. LSU-NO Peds is friendly to DO's though because a KCU grad matched there. I guess it def is department/PD-dependent huh?

 

[deleted564680]

Just saying...equal apps across the board and only difference is DO vs. MD degrees....MD is going to get the spot and a better spot. If a DO sneaks in...it's because MDs turned it down and it got to the DO on the rank list.
I'm as pro-DO as anyone, but I wish we kept our things separate...20 years from now MD = specialty and DO = primary care...mark it down.

 

[metromed]

http://depts.washington.edu/uwmedres/people/roster.htm

Just scroll a little farther down. From the same lovely school.

You know whats funny? I googled the last names of those DO residents + UW and I got:

1) prelim resident has the same last name as a Harvard MD who is currently an IM fellow at UW
2) the R3 resident has the same last name as the Cardiology professor and PD at UW

DOs are really breaking through based on merit

 

[Shinobiz11]

You know whats funny? I googled the last names of those DO students + UW and I got:

1) prelim resident has the same last name as a Harvard MD who is currently an IM fellow at UW
2) the R3 resident has the same last name as the Cardiology professor at UW

DOs are really breaking through based on merit

Well of course you need some sort of connections to match at big names. An audition rotation is essentially getting your name and work ethic out there as a potential resident, if you become friends with the PD then its a better chance of matching. That being said, I find nothing wrong with having some help from colleagues who can provide input. You think a Harvard MD would let his medically-inept family member get into a top-10 program and ruin their name if they do bad? Heck naw.

Also it opens the doors for future DO's after having working with one and seeing they're not all MD rejects.

 

[metromed]

Well of course you need some sort of connections to match at big names. An audition rotation is essentially getting your name and work ethic out there as a potential resident, if you become friends with the PD then its a better chance of matching. That being said, I find nothing wrong with having some help from colleagues who can provide input. You think a Harvard MD would let his medically-inept family member get into a top-10 program and ruin their name if they do bad? Heck naw.

Also it opens the doors for future DO's after having working with one and seeing they're not all MD rejects.

Lol the amount of denial in your post is sad.

 

[67552931811]

You know whats funny? I googled the last names of those DO residents + UW and I got:

1) prelim resident has the same last name as a Harvard MD who is currently an IM fellow at UW
2) the R3 resident has the same last name as the Cardiology professor and PD at UW

DOs are really breaking through based on merit

Same last name? Gasp! Stewart is such an uncommon last name, you know?

Also, this has been the name of the game since my relatives practiced. Kind of why the adage of "it's not what you know, it's who you know" has been entrenched in medicine for at least the past half century.