Do past criminal charges practically block entry to medical school?

[doctorsmom5594]

Thanks for your reply!
How did she get it dropped? Did she speak about these charges in interviews and/or mention them on applications? How much time was there between the charges and her applications to medical school?
Thanks again!

10 years difference, married with child at interviews. It would not have mattered if they were expunged. The application asks if you have ever plead guilty to a felony. You have to put everything on your application.
Her letter for residency explained how compassionate she was with alcoholic,drug users because of her imperfect past.
Hospitals are full of humans that did not come from perfect situations.
She loves her job. Anyone who has taken drugs knows there is a lot of violence.
The program directors that have a problem with your past will not invite you for an interview.
The program directors that had her in went through every year of her life from high school. Pursue your dream. I would consider Caribbean medical schools.
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[xffan624]

10 years difference, married with child at interviews. It would not have mattered if they were expunged. The application asks if you have ever plead guilty to a felony. You have to put everything on your application.
Her letter for residency explained how compassionate she was with alcoholic,drug users because of her imperfect past.
Hospitals are full of humans that did not come from perfect situations.
She loves her job. Anyone who has taken drugs knows there is a lot of violence.
The program directors that have a problem with your past will not invite you for an interview.
The program directors that had her in went through every year of her life from high school. Pursue your dream. I would consider Caribbean medical schools.
,

Please don't do this OP. You would make a hard residency match pretty much impossible. If you can't get into medical school the old fashioned way then that's a glaring signal you wouldn't be able to match either. Like it's been said before though, it's possible you could get into a U.S. medical school (probably not after a couple more years of distance from the most recent incident) but then have difficulty finding a residency to match to or even get a license. My recommendation would be to work and put significant distance between these incidents. If you don't have the maturity to take the long view and do this (which you seem to indicate you don't want to) then you are not ready for medical school anyway.

 

[Anon45678]

I am currently a 22 year old junior pre-med neuroscience student in Kentucky. I have planned the last several years of my life around my goal of becoming a doctor of psychiatry.

In February 2017, I recieved several drug-related criminal charges but was only convicted of a 4th degree misdemeanor for possession of heroin (yes, that can be a misdemeanor! I am very lucky!). In April 2019, I was convincted of a 4th degree misdemeanor for domestic violence after I faught back when my abusive ex-boyfriend was beating me.
EDIT: I also had emergency brain surgery at the end of 2017 and I had to spend the next 2ish years recovering from this and taking a hiatus from college due to the resulting effects, including epilepsy. I had a chunk of my temporal lobe removed and I was sometimes having 7:20 seizures within just 3 or 4 days. I was not exactly thinking too clearly at this time. I have now learned to adapt and my epilepsy is under control.

I have been clean and sober today since June 24, 2019 and I have truly changed my life around. I plan on taking the MCAT and applying to medical school in the summer of 2022 and beginning in fall 2023. My charges will not be available for expungement until 7 years after my plea dates, which will be May 2024 and April 2026.

Do these criminal charges greatly hinder my ability to get into medical school? Will they affect my ability to work in a hospital during medical school? How much/how little? Is there no hope? What should I do?

I have been told that I will be asked if I have been convicted of any criminal charges during an interview, and will likely also be asked if I have had any charges expunged for entry into a residency program. Will I have to answer yes? If I manage to get my charges expunged, will I have to admit to getting them expunged? Could they see these charges regardless?

Would it be totally crazy and stupid to go to the medical admissions office of the school I attend and ask them about it?

I'm happy to expand on whatever you'd like. Thank you in advance for your help! I sincerely appreciate it!

EDIT: I have read the story of Leigh Sundem! I am fully aware of that tragedy.

EDIT #2: I just want to thank all of you again for your help, advice, and taking time out of your very busy schedules to share your knowledge. I truly appreciate every single one of you and I cannot thank you enough

First, thanks for sharing your story - that's a huge surgery to overcome and get on track to medical school. Very impressive.

The medical field (and admissions committees) is full of doctors who look at any criminal activity as a immediate disqualification from being a physician. It will get you rejected on many med school applications, it's less likely but you could get an interview. You should check the policy too, because some schools only allow a you to submit a certain number of applications ( in case you need multiple cycles).

The primary AMCAS application asks you not to mention expunged or cleared records. However, several schools send secondary applications asking if you were ever charged, arrested, or plead to a crime. Either way, if you're asked in an interview you should answer honestly, succinctly, and confidently.

Waiting until the charges are expunged is an option but I can sympathize if you don't want to wait.

Charges might be a problem if you rotate at the veterans administration hospital because they require their own background check and fingerprinting which could be an issue for. Usually medical schools have their own hospital though and you will have no restrictions there based on your charges. If they have rotations at other hospital systems, you might have issues depending on the process for intake.

You should note the comment by LizzyM. If you disclose the crime on AMCAS it limits you. So wait until it's expunged, and then apply.

The path forward is complicated,full of sacrifice, and more humbling then anything you've ever experienced but all hope is not lost.

 

[Z2911BME]

Thanks so much for your reply! Congratulations on getting sober!
When you applied to medical school, had you had your charges expunged? Did you disclose them on applications? How many schools did you apply to and how many were you accepted to?
I consider "clean and sober" to include both heroin and alcohol--and everything else that is not coffee or prescribed medications taken as prescribed. I haven't had a drop of alcohol or anything else since 06/24/2019 and the only social media platform I use for anything but posting pictures of my pet leopard geckos is Reddit!

No my charges were not expunged. I don't think that really helps you that much considering the application questions for both school admission and residency ask if you've EVER been convicted of misdemeanors or felonies. The time you put between your past incidents and your successful recovery without any hitches carries more weight I think. If you answer "No" to those questions because you've had them expunged, and then run a criminal background check on you, I believe those may still be there in some form - but don't quote me on that I think I read somewhere that expunged records doesn't necessarily mean gone forever when I was researching this topic before applying myself. Plus there's always Google and that never goes away. Lastly, which should be first, lying would be immoral and unethical, especially as a person held to the standard physicians are held to.

I, embarrassingly I should say but with a chuckle, ran out of the allotted amount of characters in the sections for criminal record. So yes I disclosed them and did my best to condense them. I applied to probably 38 schools, and as you can imagine, did not get a lot of love from schools. I had two interview invites, and took an acceptance before I went on the second interview. That being said, I might have gotten more interviews if my MCAT score was higher. I studied 9 months for a retake and had one scheduled when I got a late admission to a school geographically exactly where I wanted to be and a good school. I toiled with declining because I knew I was going to do very well on my retake, but given my criminal history, it was a giant risk to think I would have gotten another interview let alone another acceptance. People with our background have a huge uphill battle and any chance you get you make the best of it - i'm just grateful a school gave me a chance.

It's important you talk to the right people about licensing before you even think of pursuing admission. I talked to many, many individuals qualified at every level, including the DEA (luckily had a very close friend who I met educating youth on substance abuse) and especially the state licensing boards in the states you'd like to practice, on whether or not I would have a hard time getting licensed. With a violent charge, even if it is a misdemeanor, you may have a different answer.

You are young. I know I said plan on taking a gap year, but you should set out a 5-year plan. If at the end of 5 years you still want to pursue medicine, then you'll at least have the resume/clean time to give yourself a fighting chance.

 

[Doc_Ock]

@ThatOneShyGirl DM'ed you.

 

[Med Ed]

No my charges were not expunged. I don't think that really helps you that much considering the application questions for both school admission and residency ask if you've EVER been convicted of misdemeanors or felonies. The time you put between your past incidents and your successful recovery without any hitches carries more weight I think. If you answer "No" to those questions because you've had them expunged, and then run a criminal background check on you, I believe those may still be there in some form - but don't quote me on that I think I read somewhere that expunged records doesn't necessarily mean gone forever when I was researching this topic before applying myself. Plus there's always Google and that never goes away. Lastly, which should be first, lying would be immoral and unethical, especially as a person held to the standard physicians are held to.

Depending on the circumstances, expungement can allow a person to honestly answer "no" to certain questions. I understand the concept of a judicially sanctioned lie is difficult to wrap one's head around, but this is where an attorney can be helpful.

It is also a blanket assumption that all applications as for EVER. Off the top of my head, the license applications for Indiana and Texas specifically exclude reporting anything that has been expunged. Unless something has changed at the VA, they ask about all felonies but only misdemeanors that are inside a 7-year window. Like I said much earlier in this thread, there is no consistency.

 

[ThatOneShyGirl]

Psychiatry for someone who loves brains is kind of a head-scratcher to me. It's not like you can LOOK at people's brains as a psychiatrist. A neuropathologist, on the other hand, literally looks at brains. Gross brains; brain sections on microscope slides. If you love the brain, you would love being a neuropathologist. The ones where I work are MD/PhD's who do research to discover the molecular basis of cancer and treatments that target those mutations or molecular oddities. I know there are some dual-degree programs, but I would recommend you get your PhD in neuroscience while you get distance from your misdemeanors and then you can apply to medical school. If you don't get in, you will still be able to work in research. Residency in pathology, fellowship in neuropathology, I think. Additional fellowship in molecular pathology would also be a savvy move.

Even if your record is expunged, Google and the internet are forever and any arrest reports from the media would show up there. Your story is so specific and legend has it that Adcoms check SDN and can recognize you.

Good luck to you! Maybe this country will go single-payer healthcare and the whole system will implode and be rebuilt for the better?

Thank you for the reply!
I didn't know much about neuropathologists. That is one of the reasons I posted here too—if it truly is impossible for me to achieve my dreams, then what other fields/careers would I be interested in? I feel that I have little-to-no knowledge of similarly interesting fields. Everyone just keeps telling me to become a therapist, and I am just not interested in that at all. I'm far more interested in the medical/science aspect of psychiatry. Thank you again! Please let me know if you have any other career suggestions, because I'm all ears!

 

[ThatOneShyGirl]

Please don't do this OP. You would make a hard residency match pretty much impossible. If you can't get into medical school the old fashioned way then that's a glaring signal you wouldn't be able to match either. Like it's been said before though, it's possible you could get into a U.S. medical school (probably not after a couple more years of distance from the most recent incident) but then have difficulty finding a residency to match to or even get a license. My recommendation would be to work and put significant distance between these incidents. If you don't have the maturity to take the long view and do this (which you seem to indicate you don't want to) then you are not ready for medical school anyway.

Do you have any suggestions on alternative fields/careers that I may be interested in (that's not psychology/counseling/therapy—I'm far more interested in medicine/science)? I don't want to give up my dream without having a plan B set in place.

 

[RespectTheChemistry]

Thank you for the reply!
I didn't know much about neuropathologists. That is one of the reasons I posted here too—if it truly is impossible for me to achieve my dreams, then what other fields/careers would I be interested in? I feel that I have little-to-no knowledge of similarly interesting fields. Everyone just keeps telling me to become a therapist, and I am just not interested in that at all. I'm far more interested in the medical/science aspect of psychiatry. Thank you again! Please let me know if you have any other career suggestions, because I'm all ears!

How would you feel about nursing? I was a clinical research assistant in Child Psychiatry. The nurses run the inpatient unit and do a great job of it. You wouldn't be handling any controlled substances there, so the substance history would be a non-issue for employment.

You could also pursue being a psychiatric nurse practitioner after a few years of that. My brother loves his psych NP.

I think that would be a good way to pursue your interest in the medical/science aspects of psychiatry.

 

[jhmmd]

I am currently a 22 year old junior pre-med neuroscience student in Kentucky. I have planned the last several years of my life around my goal of becoming a doctor of psychiatry.

In February 2017, I recieved several drug-related criminal charges but was only convicted of a 4th degree misdemeanor for possession of heroin (yes, that can be a misdemeanor! I am very lucky!). In April 2019, I was convincted of a 4th degree misdemeanor for domestic violence after I faught back when my abusive ex-boyfriend was beating me.
EDIT: I also had emergency brain surgery at the end of 2017 and I had to spend the next 2ish years recovering from this and taking a hiatus from college due to the resulting effects, including epilepsy. I had a chunk of my temporal lobe removed and I was sometimes having 5-10 seizures within just 3 or 4 days. I was not exactly thinking too clearly at this time. I have now learned to adapt and my epilepsy is under control.

I have been clean and sober today since June 24, 2019 and I have truly changed my life around. I plan on taking the MCAT and applying to medical school in the summer of 2022 and beginning in fall 2023. My charges will not be available for expungement until 7 years after my plea dates, which will be May 2024 and April 2026.

Do these criminal charges greatly hinder my ability to get into medical school? Will they affect my ability to work in a hospital during medical school? How much/how little? Is there no hope? What should I do?

I have been told that I will be asked if I have been convicted of any criminal charges during an interview, and will likely also be asked if I have had any charges expunged for entry into a residency program. Will I have to answer yes? If I manage to get my charges expunged, will I have to admit to getting them expunged? Could they see these charges regardless?

Would it be totally crazy and stupid to go to the medical admissions office of the school I attend and ask them about it?

I'm happy to expand on whatever you'd like. Thank you in advance for your help! I sincerely appreciate it!

EDIT: I have read the story of Leigh Sundem! I am fully aware of that tragedy.

EDIT #2: I just want to thank all of you again for your help, advice, and taking time out of your very busy schedules to share your knowledge. I truly appreciate every single one of you and I cannot thank you enough.

Hey there,
Sounds like you have had a lot of struggles. My heart goes out to you as a survivor of abuse.
I didn't see much in your post about why you are interested in medicine.
Is there anything else that you could see yourself doing? You know what they say, "Only choose to become a doctor if you truly cannot see yourself doing anything else, because the journey to becoming one is long and hard."
Good luck with everything <3

 

[ThatOneShyGirl]

How would you feel about nursing? I was a clinical research assistant in Child Psychiatry. The nurses run the inpatient unit and do a great job of it. You wouldn't be handling any controlled substances there, so the substance history would be a non-issue for employment.

You could also pursue being a psychiatric nurse practitioner after a few years of that. My brother loves his psych NP.

I think that would be a good way to pursue your interest in the medical/science aspects of psychiatry.

I would have to start all over with my bachelor's degree, which is definitely not something I want to do because of the time and money it'd take. I had considered becoming an NP a few years ago... I guess I should have gone that route. I feel that my charges would likely cause some issues there too though.

 

[ThatOneShyGirl]

Hey there,
Sounds like you have had a lot of struggles. My heart goes out to you as a survivor of abuse.
I didn't see much in your post about why you are interested in medicine.
Is there anything else that you could see yourself doing? You know what they say, "Only choose to become a doctor if you truly cannot see yourself doing anything else, because the journey to becoming one is long and hard."
Good luck with everything <3

Thank you so much for your comment!
I truly have no idea what other careers are out there that would fit my interests. To sum up why becoming a doctor of psychiatry interests me: I am very interested in chemistry/biology/neuroscience, medicine and how/why certain drugs and treatments work the way they do and how treatments are progressing and evolving, what causes/potentiates/reduces illnesses and health problems, the brain and how/why it works, and mental health/psychology (but I do NOT want to be a therapist/counselor/psychologist!). Do you have any suggestions? I am pretty unaware of job titles in healthcare and whatnot that are not super common!

 

[jhmmd]

Thank you so much for your comment!
I truly have no idea what other careers are out there that would fit my interests. To sum up why becoming a doctor of psychiatry interests me: I am very interested in chemistry/biology/neuroscience, medicine and how/why certain drugs and treatments work the way they do and how treatments are progressing and evolving, what causes/potentiates/reduces illnesses and health problems, the brain and how/why it works, and mental health/psychology (but I do NOT want to be a therapist/counselor/psychologist!). Do you have any suggestions? I am pretty unaware of job titles in healthcare and whatnot that are not super common!

Sounds like you have a pretty solid foundation for why you want to be a psychiatrist then.
Check out the stickied threads in this forum and on the main site.
Not quite sure what you meant because you asked for suggestions (for other careers?) after rattling off your reasons for "why medicine."
1) Is medicine something you truly want, and anything less than that is unacceptable? Yes? Then start reading this forum for advice, take notes, and start talking to people you know so you can gain clinical experience.
2) Will another healthcare career or a different career altogether bring you peace and joy? Then pursue that instead.

I also thought you might enjoy this:

 

[ThatOneShyGirl]

Sounds like you have a pretty solid foundation for why you want to be a psychiatrist then.
Check out the stickied threads in this forum and on the main site.
Not quite sure what you meant because you asked for suggestions (for other careers?) after rattling off your reasons for "why medicine."
1) Is medicine something you truly want, and anything less than that is unacceptable? Yes? Then start reading this forum for advice, take notes, and start talking to people you know so you can gain clinical experience.
2) Will another healthcare career or a different career altogether bring you peace and joy? Then pursue that instead.

I also thought you might enjoy this:

View attachment 333094

Hah, I do like that image!! Thanks for sharing!
I asked about alternative careers because I have heard around 50 people this past week tell me that I will not be successful. I do not want to set myself up for failure and potentially waste hundreds of thousands of dollars and several years all for nothing.
Perhaps I would be interested in another career but I just don't know it yet! I really don't know of many job titles in healthcare nor many other fields that'd potentially satisfy some of my interests, so I'm definitely open to any and all suggestions anyone has.

 

[lumya]

Do you have any suggestions? Thank you for mentioning "neurophysiology technician!" I just Googled it and it actually sounds interesting to me. I am clueless as to what other careers in the medical field I would enjoy because I don't even know of many career titles that aren't MD/DO/NP/PA/RN! Please let me know if you know if any other careers I'd be interested in--I haven't heard of much!

I'm sure I'm missing a ton of careers since I only have exposure to ones my friends have gone into. But other than intraoperative monitoring technician, I've also met perfusion specialists, imaging (MRI/CT) technicians (I think they're nuclear medicine technicians?), speech pathologists, I knew a girl who was a counselor for children with autism specifically but I'm not sure what the title is, genetic counselor, and radiation therapists (for cancer treatment). One friend of mine from college did a masters in orthopedics and prosthetics and she has an amazing job making prosthetics for children. She goes on these service trips twice a year with her company to tune up prosthetics and replace them with larger ones in low-income countries and she really loves her job.

I am certain there are tons of other jobs I'm not thinking of, but there are definitely a variety of non-physician options out there.

 

[ThatOneShyGirl]

I'm sure I'm missing a ton of careers since I only have exposure to ones my friends have gone into. But other than intraoperative monitoring technician, I've also met perfusion specialists, imaging (MRI/CT) technicians (I think they're nuclear medicine technicians?), speech pathologists, I knew a girl who was a counselor for children with autism specifically but I'm not sure what the title is, genetic counselor, and radiation therapists (for cancer treatment). One friend of mine from college did a masters in orthopedics and prosthetics and she has an amazing job making prosthetics for children. She goes on these service trips twice a year with her company to tune up prosthetics and replace them with larger ones in low-income countries and she really loves her job.

I am certain there are tons of other jobs I'm not thinking of, but there are definitely a variety of non-physician options out there.

Thank you so much!! I had never heard of "intraoperative monitoring technician," and after a Google search, it sounds like it could be interesting. Your friend's prosthetics job sounds cool too. I also just heard about "medical scientists," which sounds extremely interesting to me—probably the most out of anything I've heard—but I'm still not entirely sure what it entails and I'd hate to spend an extra 4 years in school if it wasn't to get an MD/DO degree (but it seems like I don't have many options!). Thank you again for your comment and mention of different job titles! There are probably hundreds of careers that I have yet to hear of, and there's bound to be something that I'd have a much greater chance of success with but not be bored to death of and develop a bitterness due to not following my MD/DO dreams. Please let me know if you hear of or remember anything else! Thank you so much!
EDIT: grammar

 

[mwsapphire]

Heroin and domestic violence... that application is going nowhere.

TBH this would normally be my atitude, but why did she get a DV charge for fighting back at her abusive boyfriend who was beating her. If anything, he likely did much more damage to her, seeing the physicality difference between most women and men. The BF likely had a history of abuse , too, so I'm

Like, this is really bothering me it's not an ordinary DV charge like what the heck. She fought back when she was being beaten? What kind of dumb cop convicts the woman being battered and not the man battering her???? I already have a headache and this is making it worse. This seems like a bad charge to me.

 

[zorcandpals]

TBH this would normally be my atitude, but why did she get a DV charge for fighting back at her abusive boyfriend who was beating her. If anything, he likely did much more damage to her, seeing the physicality difference between most women and men. The BF likely had a history of abuse , too, so I'm

Like, this is really bothering me it's not an ordinary DV charge like what the heck. She fought back when she was being beaten? What kind of dumb cop convicts the woman being battered and not the man battering her???? I already have a headache and this is making it worse. This seems like a bad charge to me.

Beyond the standard there are 2 sides to the story. The criminal justice system is all sorts of messed up and things like this happen.

 

[RespectTheChemistry]

TBH this would normally be my atitude, but why did she get a DV charge for fighting back at her abusive boyfriend who was beating her. If anything, he likely did much more damage to her, seeing the physicality difference between most women and men. The BF likely had a history of abuse , too, so I'm

Like, this is really bothering me it's not an ordinary DV charge like what the heck. She fought back when she was being beaten? What kind of dumb cop convicts the woman being battered and not the man battering her???? I already have a headache and this is making it worse. This seems like a bad charge to me.

YES!!!! Thank you for posting this.

 

[mwsapphire]

Beyond the standard there are 2 sides to the story. The criminal justice system is all sorts of messed up and things like this happen.

But I mean, I feel like this can be mostly explained as a heroin charge ( or an illegal substance possession charge) , if the " DV" charge can be explained.

 

[zorcandpals]

But I mean, I feel like this can be mostly explained as a heroin charge ( or an illegal substance possession charge) , if the " DV" charge can be explained.

The problem I see, assuming OP cant get it expunged/dropped, is that most people have faith/believe that the system works alot better than it does. All they will see is a conviction and immediately discount whatever explanation OP provides or worse, think that they arent taking ownership of the mistake. For something as serious as DV and as much of a sellers market as the med school admit game is, I don't necessarily blame the med school but whenever these things come up it definitely pains me to see.

 

[Goro]

TBH this would normally be my atitude, but why did she get a DV charge for fighting back at her abusive boyfriend who was beating her. If anything, he likely did much more damage to her, seeing the physicality difference between most women and men. The BF likely had a history of abuse , too, so I'm

Like, this is really bothering me it's not an ordinary DV charge like what the heck. She fought back when she was being beaten? What kind of dumb cop convicts the woman being battered and not the man battering her???? I already have a headache and this is making it worse. This seems like a bad charge to me.

None of us were there and we only have the OTS side of the story. If you were text to serve on a jury in a domestic violence case would you automatically assume that the boyfriend is guilty?

The cops at the scene aren't there to arbitrate Justice, they're there to make the arrest and let the judge and jury make the final decision.

 

[jhmmd]

TBH this would normally be my atitude, but why did she get a DV charge for fighting back at her abusive boyfriend who was beating her. If anything, he likely did much more damage to her, seeing the physicality difference between most women and men. The BF likely had a history of abuse , too, so I'm

Like, this is really bothering me it's not an ordinary DV charge like what the heck. She fought back when she was being beaten? What kind of dumb cop convicts the woman being battered and not the man battering her???? I already have a headache and this is making it worse. This seems like a bad charge to me.

This is a complicated issue and not the first time I've heard about something like this. At its core it boils down to anti-feminist attitudes and ignorance.
Also, just wanted to add that the police don't convict people; judges do.
Edit: just read Goro's post above.

 

[ThatOneShyGirl]

YES!!!! Thank you for posting this.

I was in rehab at the time and we didn't exactly fight back with the charge much at all because we just wanted to get it over with ASAP.

 

[Deltasidearm]

I truly have no idea what other careers are out there that would fit my interests. To sum up why becoming a doctor of psychiatry interests me: I am very interested in chemistry/biology/neuroscience, medicine and how/why certain drugs and treatments work the way they do and how treatments are progressing and evolving, what causes/potentiates/reduces illnesses and health problems, the brain and how/why it works, and mental health/psychology (but I do NOT want to be a therapist/counselor/psychologist!). Do you have any suggestions?

As others have repeatedly said, healthcare is not a good career choice given your history. My suggestion is to do research. You'll have much better odds of finding a suitable and successful career in that than trying to be involved in direct patient care, which won't really scratch these interests deeply anyway.

 

[ThatOneShyGirl]

As others have repeatedly said, healthcare is not a good career choice given your history. My suggestion is to do research. You'll have much better odds of finding a suitable and successful career in that than trying to be involved in direct patient care, which won't really scratch these interests deeply anyway.

Thank you for your reply!!
Research usually requires a PhD though, right? I would hate to waste all of that time and money on a doctorate degree unless it's to become an MD/DO.
Also, how could I get involved in research at that level? What kind of job title would that have?

 

[Deltasidearm]

Thank you for your reply!!
Research usually requires a PhD though, right? I would hate to waste all of that time and money on a doctorate degree unless it's to become an MD/DO.
Also, how could I get involved in research at that level? What kind of job title would that have?

You can get involved with research at all levels: HS diploma, BS/BA, MS, PhD. What you are responsible for and your pay, in general, correlates with your experience and education level. If you want to be leading a lab and your own research, then you essentially need the PhD. If you are content working and contributing to the research led by someone else then a BS is sufficient. Each has its own benefits and going all the way for a PhD is not necessarily the best career move, depending on what you want.

Science PhD's take a long time to earn but they are completely funded. You get paid to get the degree.

Honestly, it sounds to me like you shouldn't even be thinking seriously about medicine at this point in time. You need to get more exposure to other fields and career paths because you can't even know if medicine is the right path for you without it.

 

[ThatOneShyGirl]

You can get involved with research at all levels: HS diploma, BS/BA, MS, PhD. What you are responsible for and your pay, in general, correlates with your experience and education level. If you want to be leading a lab and your own research, then you essentially need the PhD. If you are content working and contributing to the research led by someone else then a BS is sufficient. Each has its own benefits and going all the way for a PhD is not necessarily the best career move, depending on what you want.

Science PhD's take a long time to earn but they are completely funded. You get paid to get the degree.

Honestly, it sounds to me like you shouldn't even be thinking seriously about medicine at this point in time. You need to get more exposure to other fields and career paths because you can't even know if medicine is the right path for you without it.

I have not thought seriously about much else because I have been set on this goal for several years now. Now that I've been told dozens and dozens of times that it is unattainable and I should give up ASAP, I am forcing myself to try to be okay with alternatives and I'm trying to make myself become even remotely interested in other things.

 

[jsat]

TBH this would normally be my atitude, but why did she get a DV charge for fighting back at her abusive boyfriend who was beating her. If anything, he likely did much more damage to her, seeing the physicality difference between most women and men. The BF likely had a history of abuse , too, so I'm

Like, this is really bothering me it's not an ordinary DV charge like what the heck. She fought back when she was being beaten? What kind of dumb cop convicts the woman being battered and not the man battering her???? I already have a headache and this is making it worse. This seems like a bad charge to me.

If all the circumstances you assume are true then yeah it is messed up. But that's for the court to decide not for an admissions committee. There's 2 sides to every story of domestic violence. From what it sounds like the case already went through the court and stayed on her record which means she either plead guilty or plead not guilty and the court still charged her due to sufficient evidence/insufficient story. Courts take into account every single thing you listed. You can claim whatever you want on a forum or even an interview, but it's harder to do that in court which is why admissions committees shouldn't be determining the validity of the charges.

 

[jsat]

Thank you for your reply!!
Research usually requires a PhD though, right? I would hate to waste all of that time and money on a doctorate degree unless it's to become an MD/DO.
Also, how could I get involved in research at that level? What kind of job title would that have?

Science PhDs are usually funded and cover the cost of tuition. You usually receive a stipend of around 30k for doing a teaching fellowship with the school or something along those lines. So your cost should be $0.00. I wouldn't do a PhD program if you had to spend money on it tbh. There's even funded masters degrees programs, I know because I did one for my masters in biochemistry. I had to teach for the dept and review grant proposals and as a result they covered my tuition and I got a 32k stipend per year. Funded masters programs are out there you just have to do some digging. They aren't as easy to find as funded PhDs though

 

[Instatewaiter]

You past may not reflect who you are as a person, but Medicine as a profession is a risk-averse and conservative. In addition, med school is a crucible and I've seen it break even healthy students. Thus, I'd have qualms about your relapsing.

My first thought as well

 

[Goro]

Thank you for your reply!!
Research usually requires a PhD though, right? I would hate to waste all of that time and money on a doctorate degree unless it's to become an MD/DO.
Also, how could I get involved in research at that level? What kind of job title would that have?

Get an MS and then you can become a lab tech, even a lab manager.

 

[ThatSerb]

Thanks for your reply!
What do you suggest then? Do you know of many similar careers that I may enjoy (not psychologist/therapist/counselor!)?

you could look into being an autopsy assistant at the coroner's office. or even a death investigator.

its a job that involves lots of science and you work directly with a doctor (the pathologist). lots of times, in my county at least, the autopsy assistant can get promoted to a death investigator. investigators make great money (6 figures at least I would say, depends on state probably), and do a lot of interesting work. its a good mix of science, investigative work, and personal work (talking to family members, law enforcement, etc)

 

[mwsapphire]

If all the circumstances you assume are true then yeah it is messed up. But that's for the court to decide not for an admissions committee. There's 2 sides to every story of domestic violence. From what it sounds like the case already went through the court and stayed on her record which means she either plead guilty or plead not guilty and the court still charged her due to sufficient evidence/insufficient story. Courts take into account every single thing you listed. You can claim whatever you want on a forum or even an interview, but it's harder to do that in court which is why admissions committees shouldn't be determining the validity of the charges.

I see what you mean now, it would be a judge, jury , and court who determines whether the charge sticks, that does make sense. I see what @Goro was saying now. If the charge actually made it through the system then it would be hard to argue it, even if OP isn't at fault. That's unfortunate.

Tbh, substance abuse, unfortunately, is extremely harshly viewed in medicine. There's the tragic Sunderland case, but so many examples of student doctors who have gotten help for addiction being blackballed in medicine.

 

[jhmmd]

I see what you mean now, it would be a judge, jury , and court who determines whether the charge sticks, that does make sense. I see what @Goro was saying now. If the charge actually made it through the system then it would be hard to argue it, even if OP isn't at fault. That's unfortunate.

Tbh, substance abuse, unfortunately, is extremely harshly viewed in medicine. There's the tragic Sunderland case, but so many examples of student doctors who have gotten help for addiction being blackballed in medicine.

And rightly so. If you arrested in the middle of the night, would you want your doctor on call in a melatonin-Benadryl-Ambien stupor, too drunk and/or under the influence to think properly? Or would you want them to yawn, roll over, and sprint to the bedside and save your life?

May sound harsh but that's how it is.

 

[RespectTheChemistry]

I was in rehab at the time and we didn't exactly fight back with the charge much at all because we just wanted to get it over with ASAP.

I certainly understand. <3

I was just trying to voice some support for you because I know the system can be unfair. I am sorry you are in this situation.

Congratulations on your sobriety. I am proud of you. <3

 

[mwsapphire]

And rightly so. If you arrested in the middle of the night, would you want your doctor on call in a melatonin-Benadryl-Ambien stupor, too drunk and/or under the influence to think properly? Or would you want them to yawn, roll over, and sprint to the bedside and save your life?

May sound harsh but that's how it is.

Is benedryl considered a drug that impairs judgement? Wow I didn't know that.
Yeah, I feel like if a Doc is on call for a clinic/hospital at night then no melotonin/sleep aides should be taken, but I never thought of avoiding benedryl if you have a cold or something.

 

[jhmmd]

Is benedryl considered a drug that impairs judgement? Wow I didn't know that.
Yeah, I feel like if a Doc is on call for a clinic/hospital at night then no melotonin/sleep aides should be taken, but I never thought of avoiding benedryl if you have a cold or something.

That's not what I said.
Not meant to be misconstrued as medical advice

 

[Flareicus]

Thanks for your reply!
What do you suggest then? Do you know of many similar careers that I may enjoy (not psychologist/therapist/counselor!)?

Depends on which side of a physician's career interests you the most. If you're really interested by just the science and how things work, you can look into research. With a bachelor's you can probably find a research assistant/tech position and push up to higher levels if it remains interesting to you. As others have said, there's a wide range of entry points in a lab heiarchy. The idea of spending another 4-6 years obtaining a PhD is daunting, but you can get experience at the base level before committing (basically what I did to rule out pursuing research before fully focusing on med).

If you're interested in patient care, you can look for other positions within the healthcare team, nursing/PA may be options though you should also look into licensing standards for that. There are a wide variety of nursing degrees and some of the more advanced ones which require higher schooling have a lot of overlap with premed reqs. If that turns out to be a viable path for you, you could use your senior year to shore up the remaining reqs and apply. You could pursue positions which are more specialized (physical therapist, occupational therapist, nutritionist, speech therapist, etc.). If you're completely unsure, I would look into getting a position with a lower barrier of entry (MA, technician, etc.), and then seeing what positions you work with that interests you. This path would also have the small advantage of setting a foundation for applying to medical school should your legal position change significantly.

 

[BillytheEchidna]

Thank you for the reply!
I didn't know much about neuropathologists. That is one of the reasons I posted here too—if it truly is impossible for me to achieve my dreams, then what other fields/careers would I be interested in? I feel that I have little-to-no knowledge of similarly interesting fields. Everyone just keeps telling me to become a therapist, and I am just not interested in that at all. I'm far more interested in the medical/science aspect of psychiatry. Thank you again! Please let me know if you have any other career suggestions, because I'm all ears!

You're very welcome! I am a lab technologist. There are several types of us, but all require some sort of formal program. I am dual-certified as a histotechnologist and cytotechnologist (screens pap smears and other body fluid specimens, looking for cancer cells and other findings... a pathologist makes the final diagnosis, but we do the first look and circle areas of interest). Histotechnologists perform microtomy of tissue biopsies and other specialized techniques to help the pathologist diagnose disease. You also have medical technologists and these guys and gals can specialize in a whole bunch of different areas or be generalists: microbiology, blood bank, hematology, chemistry, serology, HLA, etc. You pretty much need an ASCP certification to work in a clinical lab of any kind at most places, but they are not hard to get if you go through a formal program and prepare for the board exams. Check this out: Learn About Careers. You would still have to apply for a license in some states, which would include background checks, but I'd wager that it is not nearly as hard to navigate as medical school/residency. You might also look into electron microscopy (EM) technologist training programs. Neuroscience relies heavily on EM.

I found my program after I got rejected from dental school 12 years ago and I have been working in the laboratory for ten years. I love my field, but I not-so-secretly want to be a pathologist.

 

[dersz]

I have a misdemeanor that I expunged recently, and I currently plan on not including it on my AMCAS. Here is information from the 2020 AMCAS applicant guide

"You must indicate if you have ever been convicted of, or pleaded guilty or no contest to, a misdemeanor crime, excluding (1) any offense for which you were adjudicated as a juvenile, (2) any convictions that have been expunged or sealed by a court, or (3) any misdemeanor convictions for which you completed any probation and for which the court dismissed the case (in states where applicable). You need not disclose any instance in which you:

• Were arrested but not charged
• Were arrested and charged, with the charges dropped
• Were arrested and charged but found not guilty by a judge or jury
• Were arrested and found guilty by a judge or jury, with the conviction overturned on appeal
• Were arrested and found guilty but received an executive pardon

As for residency, I am unaware of what guidelines are used.

(Link: https://aamc-orange.global.ssl.fast...35ac84f3e6/2020amcasapplicantguide-060419.pdf)

 

[LunaOri]

You're very welcome! I am a lab technologist. There are several types of us, but all require some sort of formal program. I am dual-certified as a histotechnologist and cytotechnologist (screens pap smears and other body fluid specimens, looking for cancer cells and other findings... a pathologist makes the final diagnosis, but we do the first look and circle areas of interest). Histotechnologists perform microtomy of tissue biopsies and other specialized techniques to help the pathologist diagnose disease. You also have medical technologists and these guys and gals can specialize in a whole bunch of different areas or be generalists: microbiology, blood bank, hematology, chemistry, serology, HLA, etc. You pretty much need an ASCP certification to work in a clinical lab of any kind at most places, but they are not hard to get if you go through a formal program and prepare for the board exams. Check this out: Learn About Careers. You would still have to apply for a license in some states, which would include background checks, but I'd wager that it is not nearly as hard to navigate as medical school/residency. You might also look into electron microscopy (EM) technologist training programs. Neuroscience relies heavily on EM.

I found my program after I got rejected from dental school 12 years ago and I have been working in the laboratory for ten years. I love my field, but I not-so-secretly want to be a pathologist.

If you’re looking into lab careers, consider Pathologist Assistant, which pays very well

 

[BidingMyTime]

I would disagree. IF she can get it expunged My cousin assaulted me and was kept out of nursing school for now. But she is getting her misdemeanor expunged bc she took a plea in abeyance. It might be too late for our friend here. But I would imagine that my cousin will still get into nursing school since she was a dumb 18 yr old. Our friend here was assaulted and probably has a great story to share. Wonder what a lawyer might say.

Just like medical school, getting accepted into nursing school doesn't mean she will ever be licensed as a nurse. Yes, it varies from state to state, but sometimes nursing boards are even harder on past criminal convictions than medical boards. I have heard of more than one nurse, who got a BSN, and then could never actually practice as a nurse.

I completely disagree with people telling you to consider other healthcare careers. Your convictions, especially the DV conviction, are likely to be a problem getting licensed in any healthcare career

I know it sucks. Everyone makes mistakes in life, and you have done a great job in correcting the mistakes you've made. But I think you should seriously consider another field. You probably really need to do a career assessment, and talk with a career counselor, to see where to go from.

You mention not wanting to restart your bachelor's, but many of your core bachelor's classes will transfer. Yes, if you completely change majors, you make have to do an extra 1 - 2 years.....but this will be far preferable to getting an MD, and then never being able to practice as a doctor.

Would she be able to go to a different country, become a doctor there, take the boards and if she passes practice here?
Op is there anything you can do to get the dv charge dropped? I don't know much about the legal system but if things went down like you said there has to be some way you can appeal it.

Taking the boards isn't the problem, its getting licensed. She can pass all the board exams and still not get licensed because of her criminal convictions. That will not change regardless of where she went to school at.

I would have to start all over with my bachelor's degree, which is definitely not something I want to do because of the time and money it'd take. I had considered becoming an NP a few years ago... I guess I should have gone that route. I feel that my charges would likely cause some issues there too though.

This has not been clear in your OP. How far along are you in your bachelor's degree, and what is your actual major? "Pre-med" is usually not an actual major.

Is benedryl considered a drug that impairs judgement? Wow I didn't know that.
Yeah, I feel like if a Doc is on call for a clinic/hospital at night then no melotonin/sleep aides should be taken, but I never thought of avoiding benedryl if you have a cold or something.

There are no hard and fast answers. Some people can be taking drugs under prescription and be quite stable and not impaired by those drugs. Others could be taking those same drugs under prescription and be impaired. Generally speaking, taking drugs acutely (like for a cold) are more likely to impair someone's judgement, then taking the same drug chronically. Yes, people have been convicted of DWI because they took Benadryl. *Any* drug, whether legal or not, that influences your behavior as an individual, can lead to a DWI conviction (or get you in trouble with your state board for practicing while taking it.)

 

[ThatOneShyGirl]

Just like medical school, getting accepted into nursing school doesn't mean she will ever be licensed as a nurse. Yes, it varies from state to state, but sometimes nursing boards are even harder on past criminal convictions than medical boards. I have heard of more than one nurse, who got a BSN, and then could never actually practice as a nurse.

I completely disagree with people telling you to consider other healthcare careers. Your convictions, especially the DV conviction, are likely to be a problem getting licensed in any healthcare career

I know it sucks. Everyone makes mistakes in life, and you have done a great job in correcting the mistakes you've made. But I think you should seriously consider another field. You probably really need to do a career assessment, and talk with a career counselor, to see where to go from.

You mention not wanting to restart your bachelor's, but many of your core bachelor's classes will transfer. Yes, if you completely change majors, you make have to do an extra 1 - 2 years.....but this will be far preferable to getting an MD, and then never being able to practice as a doctor.



Taking the boards isn't the problem, its getting licensed. She can pass all the board exams and still not get licensed because of her criminal convictions. That will not change regardless of where she went to school at.



This has not been clear in your OP. How far along are you in your bachelor's degree, and what is your actual major? "Pre-med" is usually not an actual major.



There are no hard and fast answers. Some people can be taking drugs under prescription and be quite stable and not impaired by those drugs. Others could be taking those same drugs under prescription and be impaired. Generally speaking, taking drugs acutely (like for a cold) are more likely to impair someone's judgement, then taking the same drug chronically. Yes, people have been convicted of DWI because they took Benadryl. *Any* drug, whether legal or not, that influences your behavior as an individual, can lead to a DWI conviction (or get you in trouble with your state board for practicing while taking it.)

I have 61 credit hours completed and I'm enrolled in 14 currently. I plan on taking 6 credits over the summer. I'm majoring in neuroscience and psychology.
I was just in a pre-med meeting yesterday where a guy went over his medical school application and showed that there are 15 boxes to elaborate on experiences with volunteering, tutoring, research, etc. He said that it is preferable to only list things which you've done for >40 hours. I have not done much of anything repeatedly for >10 hours... So, I think I've given up on my dream of becoming a doctor. I don't think I can cram >600 hours of service work and whatnot into one year. That is just insane. I spent the first few semesters of college trying to get sober and the last few recovering from brain surgery and trying to get straight A's. I guess I'm not cut out for this after all. Do you have any alternative career suggestions? I'd love to hear of some niche job titles that I may be interested in—I don't know of many job titles that aren't nurse, NP, PA, MD/DO

 

[RespectTheChemistry]

I'm a fellow Psych major and so excited to find other people into that. @ThatOneShyGirl

Hospital social work? In the ER where I shadowed, we had an awesome social worker who helped people access follow-up care/medications/whatever. That could be a way to use the Psychology without having to do therapy (which is definitely not some people's cup of tea and that's okay!).

Physical, occupational or speech therapy. These all utilize neuroscience.

Genetic counseling?

Neuroscience research as some people have already mentioned

Research assisting in a Neuroscience lab or Clinical Neurology research assisting

Neuropsychology, although you'd have to do the Clinical Psych PhD first to get to that

Audiology, which is actually pretty neat. It's testing hearing and setting hearing aids and sometimes cochlear implants.

 

[Flareicus]

I have 61 credit hours completed and I'm enrolled in 14 currently. I plan on taking 6 credits over the summer. I'm majoring in neuroscience and psychology.
I was just in a pre-med meeting yesterday where a guy went over his medical school application and showed that there are 15 boxes to elaborate on experiences with volunteering, tutoring, research, etc. He said that it is preferable to only list things which you've done for >40 hours. I have not done much of anything repeatedly for >10 hours... So, I think I've given up on my dream of becoming a doctor. I don't think I can cram >600 hours of service work and whatnot into one year. That is just insane. I spent the first few semesters of college trying to get sober and the last few recovering from brain surgery and trying to get straight A's. I guess I'm not cut out for this after all. Do you have any alternative career suggestions? I'd love to hear of some niche job titles that I may be interested in—I don't know of many job titles that aren't nurse, NP, PA, MD/DO

You aren't required to fill out all 15 activities. On top of that, you don't need all the hours within one year. Most applicants do so over their entire undergrad career, and many still fail to reach the ideal thresholds by graduation. They correct these later by taking gap years where they focus on clinical/volunteering shortcomings before applying. You would have plenty of time to fill in these gaps after graduation.

There are other obstacles you face that must be considered, but lacking the requisite experiences shouldn't be what finalizes your decision.

 

[ThatOneShyGirl]

You aren't required to fill out all 15 activities. On top of that, you don't need all the hours within one year. Most applicants do so over their entire undergrad career, and many still fail to reach the ideal thresholds by graduation. They correct these later by taking gap years where they focus on clinical/volunteering shortcomings before applying. You would have plenty of time to fill in these gaps after graduation.

There are other obstacles you face that must be considered, but lacking the requisite experiences shouldn't be what finalizes your decision.

Although you're not required to fill out all 15, I already don't have a great chance of getting in--so it'd be a whole lot better if I did fill out all 15 in detail with >40 hours each!
I don't want to sit around volunteering/working for free after my bachelor's and building up debt and getting older just to apply and maybe not even get in...
The guy who showed his application in last night's meeting also showed that he had >10 AP courses from high school on his transcript. My school didn't even offer that many! It's obvious that many people practically come out of the womb prepping to become a doctor. I wasted a few years of my life and it suddenly seems pretty clear that I just cannot compete with all of this now. I had no idea that so many volunteer hours were expected/suggested/preferred--I am many years behind already.

 

[LizzyM]

Given your psychology major, may I suggest trying to get some experience, paid or unpaid, as a research assistant to a faculty member.
After graduation, seek out a position at a university that is doing psychology research. It would be animal research or human research. It might be in a psychology department but might be in psychiatry, physiology, or even the business school. I think that you might be particularly interested in motivation for behavior and behavior change, impulse control, and the like. After some years of work experience, you may be able to determine if this line of scientific inquiry excites you and if you feel drawn to pursue a doctoral degree (PhD) in the field.

 

[ThatOneShyGirl]

Given your psychology major, may I suggest trying to get some experience, paid or unpaid, as a research assistant to a faculty member.
After graduation, seek out a position at a university that is doing psychology research. It would be animal research or human research. It might be in a psychology department but might be in psychiatry, physiology, or even the business school. I think that you might be particularly interested in motivation for behavior and behavior change, impulse control, and the like. After some years of work experience, you may be able to determine if this line of scientific inquiry excites you and if you feel drawn to pursue a doctoral degree (PhD) in the field.

Thank you! I think this is exactly what I'm going to do. I recently spoke with my advisor because I was curious about research, and she told me to email a psychology professor here at my university to get involved in psychology/neuroscience research. I have spent a ridiculous amount of hours over the past week trying to find other careers that I may enjoy, and research--medical research in particular--seems to be the only real thing I've found.
I was initially thinking about the PA route, but the sheer amount of experience hours needed/recommended is just crazy to me (according to one site, the average applicant had 2,664 hours of patient contact, 756 hours of "other healthcare experience," 338 hours of community service, 2,155 hours of other work experience, and 94 hours of healthcare shadowing). It is crazy to me that--before even applying to PA school--the average applicant has nearly 3 years of 40 hour work weeks for experience! Just to be a PA!

 

[doctorsmom5594]

Please don't do this OP. You would make a hard residency match pretty much impossible. If you can't get into medical school the old fashioned way then that's a glaring signal you wouldn't be able to match either. Like it's been said before though, it's possible you could get into a U.S. medical school (probably not after a couple more years of distance from the most recent incident) but then have difficulty finding a residency to match to or even get a license. My recommendation would be to work and put significant distance between these incidents. If you don't have the maturity to take the long view and do this (which you seem to indicate you don't want to) then you are not ready for medical school anyway.

My daughter agrees with you. She said violence is a separate question and no program director will want to deal with it.