Do people actually write "Bad Letters"?!

[Kasra321]

I've been asking for feedback on my unsuccessful application, and I've been occasionally told that I should rule out the possibility of a "Bad" letter.

But, what is considered a bad letter?

Does it ever happen that a recommender intentionally write something negative about the applicant? Something that could, potentially, sabotage the application?
Wouldn't they let you know if they were not going to write a supportive letter?

Or, is a letter consider "bad" when it is superficial, generic, too short, unenthusiastic and not addressing the prompt?

Also, how important is the English proficiency of the recommender? Could the 'applicant' be judged if there are technical mistakes in a letter?


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[Alienman52]

I've been asking for feedback on my unsuccessful application, and I've been occasionally told that I should rule out the possibility of a "Bad" letter.

But, what is considered a bad letter?

Does it ever happen that a recommender intentionally write something negative about the applicant? Something that could, potentially, sabotage the application?
Wouldn't they let you know if they were not going to write a supportive letter?

Or, is a letter consider "bad" when it is superficial, generic, too short, unenthusiastic and not addressing the prompt?

Also, how important is the English proficiency of the recommender? Could the 'applicant' be judged if there are technical mistakes in a letter?


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile

I think a "bad letter," is exactly what you have said, and I have bolded above. I think if a recommender didn't know you well enough (or didn't like you for that matter), they'd say to find someone else to write you a letter. (unless they have a personal vendetta towards you, and they are also a terrible person themselves...)

As far as english proficiency, one of my recommenders was ESL, and I made out fine.

 

[hiyaman]

Did you ask your writers for a Strong and Positive LOR? Its important to use that language because it helps to prevent short generic letters

 

[Promethean]

It doesn't even require a deliberate and malicious attempt to undermine. It could just be that someone damned the applicant via faint praise.

There is an unwritten code to LORs. They have to be effusive and over the top with praise. "I strongly recommend that you consider this excellent student for your program." This is so the norm, that if someone who is unfamiliar with this phenomenon might write something that sounds fine... but just fine, not emphatic. "Student is a good student and would be likely to do well in medical school."

There are also certain words that, if used in any other setting, would be laudatory, but which are signals of awfulness in a LOR. "His performance is solid." Ugh... you know what else is "solid?" Rocks, and other dense things. Someone might have thought they were giving a compliment, but if they called you solid, they may as well have called you bright as a block of granite.

 

[marcelo12]

If the person doesn't know you well or does not have specific examples of your aptitude to write about, then it is probably going to be a weak letter.

 

[efle]

Most people will not agree to write a letter if they would have lethal negative things to include in it.

Some people will write a bland/generic letter that only talks about the person's exam performance with template filler. That's what "bad/weak letter" usually refers to.

As mentioned above, this is why you need to ask the prof (preferably in person) if they feel they know you well enough to write a very strong letter of support for your application.

 

[MeltingIceCube]

Back in the day, I had a job at a Uni where LOR for a grad program would come across my desk daily. The worst generic letter I had ever seen said, "I'm not sure why person x asked me for a letter. He/she received an A in my class". And that was it.

 

[cactusman]

The worst generic letter I had ever seen said, "I'm not sure why person x asked me for a letter. He/she received an A in my class". And that was it.

That class must have been either really huge or really grade-inflated if the professor couldn't come up with anything else.

 

[efle]

Back in the day, I had a job at a Uni where LOR for a grad program would come across my desk daily. The worst generic letter I had ever seen said, "I'm not sure why person x asked me for a letter. He/she received an A in my class". And that was it.

Was that written by a PhD/professor?? Horrible for them to agree when they knew they'd torpedo their application.

 

[gyngyn]

Most LOR's are "bad" in that they tell us nothing about the applicant.
A Letter of Evaluation should address at least some of the qualities in these guidelines: https://www.aamc.org/download/332578/data/lettersguidelinesbrochure.pdf

 

[MeltingIceCube]

It was written by a PhD who was known to lack social skills. It was a small class. The head of my department, after reading the letter, said "Why on earth would you ask this guy/girl for a LOR?".

Ask wisely, my friends.

 

[efle]

It was written by a PhD who was known to lack social skills. It was a small class. The head of my department, after reading the letter, said "Why on earth would you ask this guy/girl for a LOR?".

Ask wisely, my friends.

I could never have had your job (school letter service?) because I'd feel compelled to use one of the anonymous temporary email sites to give the students a heads-up not to include that letter.

 

[Promethean]

I could never have had your job (school letter service?) because I'd feel compelled to use one of the anonymous temporary email sites to give the students a heads-up not to include that letter.

Speaking of that... is there any service one can use to review one's letters, while maintaining confidentiality? Like could someone arrange to have their letters sent to such a service, have them review the letters, and rank them or maybe flag ones that an applicant should think twice about using? If they didn't reveal the content of the letters to the student, and only provided general advice on which letters were best to use, would that be a thing?

I'd considered trying to find a way to send my letters to a neutral party to have them evaluate them in this way, but I never followed through on it because I wasn't sure if that was entirely ethical to do. I didn't care to censor anything that my letter writers may have wanted to say about me... I was concerned about whether they got my pronouns right. A couple of my letters were from science professors that I knew before I transitioned, and I thought it would be problematic if some of my letters were calling me "he" while some called me "she." It ended up not being an issue, since I got in, and all of my letters going forward should be congruent in the use of masculine pronouns. But I still kinda wonder...

Has anyone had someone review their letters before they sent them? Is this a thing which is done?

 

[efle]

I'm sure letter writers can agree to send a copy of the letter to whomever they want. They can even choose to share it with you after you've waived your ability to see it.

It's just a question of whether they are comfortable writing it for you after you've said "send it to XYZ instead of our school letter holding office"

 

[Promethean]

I'm sure letter writers can agree to send a copy of the letter to whomever they want. They can even choose to share it with you after you've waived your ability to see it.

It's just a question of whether they are comfortable writing it for you after you've said "send it to XYZ instead of our school letter holding office"

My letters were all sent to Interfolio. I didn't have a school letter holding office, because my undergraduate education was, like most things about me, somewhat complicated.

I think that Interfolio will send the letters to just about anyone in academia, just not to the candidate themselves. So, if there were a third party letter evaluation service, I believe that Interfolio would likely forward the letters on without any fuss.

 

[efle]

My letters were all sent to Interfolio. I didn't have a school letter holding office, because my undergraduate education was, like most things about me, somewhat complicated.

I think that Interfolio will send the letters to just about anyone in academia, just not to the candidate themselves. So, if there were a third party letter evaluation service, I believe that Interfolio would likely forward the letters on without any fuss.

Yeah I suppose if you're using something like Interfolio, you could just ask anyone in academia you know if they'd glance at it for you and have them sent a copy.

 

[efle]

Can you tell I am not a big fan of the letter system?

You mean LoRs should not be a part of this process, or just that there needs to be some central LoR submission system to AMCAS?

 

[Goro]

Anything where the writer says something bad about the applicant. These are so rare that they stand out, and as such, are rather lethal to one's chances.
But, what is considered a bad letter?

Well, yeah.

Joe X was not a team player...

OR

Jill had a habit of blaming her team members...

OR

Jack was consistently late for lab and kept making the same mistakes, even following advice on how to avoid them...

OR

Jane had some trust or control issues and so would do all the work of her lab partners

OR

Jerry sometimes has trouble letting go; he will mull over a failed experiment and berate himself too much over it.

OR

Jan talked a good talk, but couldn't walk the walk when she needed to perform at the level we expect.

These were real life examples. They weren't out and out Donald Trump-like flame attacks, they were letters of evaluation, assessing good and bad. This is actually what we want to see, but sadly, rarely get.

I myself have written only one bad letter, for someone who I felt did not belong in med school.

When I was a post-doc, there was a PhD student in the lab who was not a nice person. A Mexican post-doc in the lab and I used to call her "La Serpiente" (the Snake). She later left and took an MS instead. I heard from her about 1-2 years later, when she was thinking of going to grad school again, and she asked if "I could write her a LOR?"

I said "sure". She never followed up. That's one letter I sure would have loved to send!

Does it ever happen that a recommender intentionally write something negative about the applicant? Something that could, potentially, sabotage the application?

Not necessarily. There's a difference when someone asks me "Dr Goro, will you write me a LOR?" vs "Dr Goro, can you write me a good LOR?" I have told people "I don't think I can write you a good LOR".

Wouldn't they let you know if they were not going to write a supportive letter?

See the wise gyngyn's response above.
Or, is a letter consider "bad" when it is superficial, generic, too short, unenthusiastic and not addressing the prompt?

We don't care.
Also, how important is the English proficiency of the recommender? Could the 'applicant' be judged if there are technical mistakes in a letter?

 

[Lawpy]

These were real life examples. They weren't out and out Donald Trump-like flame attacks, they were letters of evaluation, assessing good and bad. This is actually what we want to see, but sadly, rarely get.

but i thought adcoms want to see evaluative letters that objectively focus only on the good aspects? since admissions is a negative process, any mention of a negative would mean a red flag and an automatic trashing of the application.

 

[Goro]

Good, evaluative LORs can either leave out anything bad, or so spin it that the bad things seem trivial, or they're not things that we worry about to begin with. Saying someone is shy is fine. Saying that they're withdrawn is a different matter.

but i thought adcoms want to see evaluative letters that objectively focus only on the good aspects? since admissions is a negative process, any mention of a negative would mean a red flag and an automatic trashing of the application.

 

[Knicks17]

I am pretty sure some people write some negative oriented even though you might now expect it. Case in point: one of my doctor friend reviews and interviews apps for residency match at a med school. In one of the letters the person writing it, ambiguously stated that the applicant had an affair going on in the school. They called up the guy who wrote the letter and he confirmed their suspicions. They director then rejected the kid because he did not want to deal with his baggage even though the appilicant had a pretty solid app

 

[Promethean]

I am pretty sure some people write some negative oriented even though you might now expect it. Case in point: one of my doctor friend reviews and interviews apps for residency match at a med school. In one of the letters the person writing it, ambiguously stated that the applicant had an affair going on in the school. They called up the guy who wrote the letter and he confirmed their suspicions. They director then rejected the kid because he did not want to deal with his baggage even though the appilicant had a pretty solid app

Sharing rumors about someone's personal relationships in an academic recommendation letter is unacceptable. How did the letter writer know that the applicant was having an affair? Did they actually observe inappropriate intimacy, or were they making an assumption based on partial information or heresay. Maybe they misinterpreted a friendship, or maybe there was an open relationship, or maybe someone was talking up something they didn't really know about.

I do think that honesty in intimate relationships speaks to integrity of character generally... but if you are going to impact someone's career based on a judgment about that, you'd better have all the information. Otherwise, you are no better than any other common gossip.

 

[Promethean]

Yeah I suppose if you're using something like Interfolio, you could just ask anyone in academia you know if they'd glance at it for you and have them sent a copy.

Sure. And that was what I was going to do when I decided that was ethically dicey. That is why I was asking whether there was some existing letter review service, something that could assure everyone concerned that the content of the letter would not be revealed to the applicant, while still giving the applicant some indication of whether the letter would be good to use.

I get that not allowing the applicant read the letters makes it possible for writers to be candid. But I wish there were a way to screen for really egregious things... Like I've heard of letter writers sending letters naming particular schools, which then get sent to all of the ones the applicant applied to. Great, so all your schools can know that you were into Princeton Plainsboro enough to talk up your interest to your prof... and we all know how hard it is to get in there.

Or, I just got a letter addressed to Gabriella <Promethean's Last Name>. Like a pretty official kind of letter. Now I have to go investigate whether there is a Gabby with my last name (UNLIKELY! it is an Ellis Island special that maybe 20 people in the world have, and I know who they all are) or whether I am now registered in this very important official database under an incorrect name (and gender?) It would be great to have a way to screen if a letter writer flaked out and spent the whole letter singing the praises of your classmate who also happened to ask her to write for them, too.

 

[3member]

Speaking of that... is there any service one can use to review one's letters, while maintaining confidentiality? Like could someone arrange to have their letters sent to such a service, have them review the letters, and rank them or maybe flag ones that an applicant should think twice about using? If they didn't reveal the content of the letters to the student, and only provided general advice on which letters were best to use, would that be a thing?

...

Has anyone had someone review their letters before they sent them? Is this a thing which is done?

This isn't relevant to the topic, but a useful fact is that Interfolio was able to let me know whether my LORs were submitted on letterhead!...if that helps anyone here at all... or not. =P

 

[blackroses]

As someone who's thought about applying to medical school and taken the pre-reqs, but is now applying to graduate school, I must say I agree with you so strongly. I think it would be great to have such a service available for prospective graduate or professional students. Sometimes you have professors in whose classes you did well, and who you at least feel you have a good relationship with, but there may be that strange, perhaps irrationally insecure suspicion you have that they have some secret vendetta against you and really agreed to write a LOR so that they could sabotage your chances (especially if you're someone with trust issues). I think this can happen even when you did ask for a LOR in a way that indicated your desire for a good LOR. Of course, in certain fields where intellectual discourse can get intense and discuss controversial issues, one's worries might become pretty realistic, it would seem to me. Like you, though, I don't know of any such service, though I'd be willing to pay for a legitimate one.



That actually is interesting. It would at least give you a sense of how professional and conscientious your LOR-writers tried to be in making their letters.

I'm really feeling this right now . Let's just say that one professor I want to ask for a LOR is drinking buddies with my partner's ex, who has most definitely said some not-so-flattering things about me!

 

[sunshinefl]

I could tell that one of my writers was going to struggle following the directions of how to send the letter in.... but I maintained the integrity of the process and didn't have him hand it to me to mail in. Well, when it posted to Interfolio I saw it said 7 pages. I knew he couldn't possibly have written 7 pages and must have sent the supporting documents I gave him along with the letter. I called Interfolio and they were willing and able to go in and detach the other pages from his letter.