DO physicians can get MD title?

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Lol then refer to my previous post.... It is valid here too 🙂
 
SpecterGT260 said:
THAT is why you missed the point. You cannot neglect those things. It is like comparing the sun and moon as similar - and guess what, they did that until we got over that whole center of the universe thing. You are denying the key differences in something in order to make an otherwise trivial point. Learning OMM is nothing like learning o-chem or physics simply because we will not remember and use everything we learned. That is just like saying apples are different from dogs because one is red. Yes... technically true... but that will not earn you your coveted golden star because there are much larger and more relevant differences to be discussed. And I suspect the comment on using diel alder was an attempt at sarcasm, but in the context of exactly how far you missed the point it is one of the most asinine things I have ever heard.
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What are you even doing in medicine? You should be in a courtroom arguing against things people didn't say. If it wasn't my intention to compare evidence, then why are you arguing about comparing evidence? Are you autistic? You seem to deal in absolutes and struggle with abstract thought. Oh congratulations Sheldon you understood my sarcasm! Your analogies make NO sense, apples are different than dogs because one is red? Just listen to yourself, you are ranting so much you stop making sense after the first two sentences.

You guys are bashing the DO degree for the practice of OMM and think you are on a high horse because you go to an MD school. I don't care what you think about osteopathic medicine. To put it in your own words, there is nothing wrong with saying the sun and moon are both galactic bodies. But of course you chime in and would say "no you're an idiot because one is fiery and gives us light and one is rocky and gives us ocean waves." Completely irrelevant to the original point of them being simply galactic bodies.
 
Man, this thread is like a step back in time. :laugh:
 
You don't seem to understand when highlighting a distinction detracts from a discussion more than it adds.... Medicine is evidence based and you supported adopting non evidence based ideas on the basis that we won't use everything we learn anyways. My tendency to argue against that is why I am in medicine.... But why are you? Your argument spits in the face of a core concept of modern medicine.


"other health professions". What exactly do you do?
 
auburnO5 said:
When someone is really sick, assuming the person is somewhat educated, they want to see an MD, not a DO.
Click to expand...

Wrong. When someone is really sick, assuming the person is somewhat educated, they want to see MD or DO Physician in closest proximity to them.
 
If anyone is interested in evidence based OMM:

Published in the American Journal of Obstetrics & Gynecology http://www.ajog.org/article/S0002-9378(09)00843-6/abstract

http://www.om-pc.com/content/2/1/5

Haldeman, S, Kohlbeck, F, McGregor, M. Unpredictability of
Cerebrovascular Ischemia Associated With Cervical Spine
Manipulation Therapy: A Review of Sixty-Four Cases After Cervical
Spine Manipulation. Spine. 27(1):49-55, January 1, 2002

• A Systematic Review of the Risk Factors for Cervical Artery
Dissection Sidney M. Rubinstein, MSc; Saskia M. Peerdeman,
MD, PhD; Maurits W. van Tulder, PhD; Ingrid Riphagen, MSc;
Scott Haldeman, MD, PhD. Stroke. 2005;36:1575-1580.

Dabbs V, Lauretti WJ.
"A risk assessment of cervical manipulation vs. NSAIDs for the
treatment of neck pain."
J Manipulative Physiol Ther 1995 Oct;18(8):530-6

Haldeman S, Kohlbeck FJ, McGregor M. Unpredictability of
cerebrovascular ischemia associated with cervical spine manipulation
therapy. SPINE 27:49-55.

• Assendelft WJ, Bouter LM, Knipschild PG. Complications of spinal
manipulation. J of Family Practice (1996) 42:475-480.

• Vick DA, McKay C, Zangerle CR. The safety of manipulative treatment:
review of the literature from 1925 to 1993. JAOA (1996) 96:113-115

• Schmitt HP. Anatomical structure of the cervical spine with reference to
the pathology of manipulation complications. J of Manual Medicine
(1991) 6:93-101.

• Murphy: Current understanding of the relationship between cervical
manipulation and stroke: what does it mean for the chiropractic
profession?. Chiropractic & Osteopathy 2010 18:22

Easton JD, Sherman DG. Cervical manipulation and stroke. STROKE
(1977) 8:594-597.

• Daneshmend TK, Hewer RL, Bradshaw JR. Acute brain stem stroke
during neck manipulation. BMJ (1984) 288:189.

• Krueger BR, Okazaki H. Vertebral-basilar distribution infarction
following chiropractic cervical manipulation. Mayo Clinic Proceedings
(1980) 44:322-332

• Parkin PJ, Wallis WE, Wilson JL. Vertebral artery occlusion following
manipulation of the neck. NZ Med J (1978) 88:441-443.

• Mueller S, Sahs AL. Brain stem dysfunction related to cervical
manipulation. Neurology (1976) 26:547-550

• Magee, David J., Orthopedic Physical Assessment ED 5. Chapter 3.
Elsevier (2008).

• Malanga, G. A., Nadler, S. F., Musculoskeletal Physical Examination:
An Evidence-Based Approach. Chapter 3. Elsevier (2006).
 
johnnydrama said:
.....If you aren't fighting against OMM, you're just further invalidating your degree. And the more credibility your degree gives to OMM, the less I want it associated with mine.....
Click to expand...

I think it's the other way around. If you're an osteopath calling bs on OMM, you're basically calling bs on what makes you a DO (and not an MD).
 
SpecterGT260 said:
You don't seem to understand when highlighting a distinction detracts from a discussion more than it adds.... Medicine is evidence based and you supported adopting non evidence based ideas on the basis that we won't use everything we learn anyways. My tendency to argue against that is why I am in medicine.... But why are you? Your argument spits in the face of a core concept of modern medicine.


"other health professions". What exactly do you do?
Click to expand...

Once again you are putting words in my mouth. I never supported the adoption of non evidence based ideas. I am into medicine for the same reasons you are, evidence based practice of treating people. Which is why I do research, to obtain the evidence. I work right next door to a DO doing the same thing. He probably doesn't even use OMM, so there's really no harm in learning stuff you choose not to use if that's what it takes to become a physician. Plain and simple.

I'm not spitting in any core concept of medicine that says don't use something that doesn't work. That was exactly my point to begin with so now we've done a 180 and finally landed on the same side that if it doesn't sit well with you then don't use it. You're just complainig about one class in a DO school that most students don't use after graduation.

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AnthroDocFL said:
Once again you are putting words in my mouth. I never supported the adoption of non evidence based ideas. I am into medicine for the same reasons you are, evidence based practice of treating people. Which is why I do research, to obtain the evidence. I work right next door to a DO doing the same thing. He probably doesn't even use OMM, so there's really no harm in learning stuff you choose not to use if that's what it takes to become a physician. Plain and simple.

I'm not spitting in any core concept of medicine that says don't use something that doesn't work. That was exactly my point to begin with so now we've done a 180 and finally landed on the same side that if it doesn't sit well with you then don't use it. You're just complainig about one class in a DO school that most students don't use after graduation.

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Click to expand...

I feel bad for you that you cannot see the invalidity of your argument.... But it's not worth pursuing I suppose....

There were 3 other people that rejected the comparison as well.... Not that I'm suggesting you bend to peer pressure.... But is it so hard to admit the analogy was pretty weak?
 
SpecterGT260 said:
I feel bad for you that you cannot see the invalidity of your argument.... But it's not worth pursuing I suppose....
Click to expand...

I feel bad for you that you blame people for learning one course that they will probably not use. Because in the end we will both be physicians with equal practicing rights. Good luck to you.

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Now who is putting words in people's mouths? 🙄

What is a "other health professions student"?
 
SpecterGT260 said:
Now who is putting words in people's mouths? 🙄

What is a "other health professions student"?
Click to expand...

I was in a Master's program for pharmacology and now have an MS. So at one point I was a Health Student... a distinction many make when in a graduate program.

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AnthroDocFL said:
I feel bad for you that you blame people for learning one course that they will probably not use. Because in the end we will both be physicians with equal practicing rights. Good luck to you.

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Click to expand...

1. Never blamed anyone for anything
2. Never said it was grounds to deny practicing rights

I'm not saying you mean to say these things either but these are the only ways your statement makes sense in context. This is where you got lost in the ochem thing. You don't seem to be able to follow a logical argument well. "OMM won't always be used just like dies alder reactions" is not a valid counterpoint to "aspects of OMM are not based on good science". Your point relies on acceptance of degree use as the key difference between the teachings. This is why I used the apples and dogs thing. It isn't a hard analogy to follow.... Instead of attacking me for your inability to hang you should probably spend some time trying to decipher the meaning. Basically, I reject your earlier comparison, not because you claim the two are unused, but WHY you claim they are unused. Neither OMM or basic ochem are used in standard practice but the fact that ochem is taught does not validate teaching OMM. You miss the key difference while capitalizing on a coincidental difference to make your point. The argument is a fallacy.
 
donkeykong1 said:
Wrong. When someone is really sick, assuming the person is somewhat educated, they want to see MD or DO Physician in closest proximity to them.
Click to expand...

It varies by location. DOs are fairly well accepted in the Midwest, but if you're on the East coast, DOs have much less acceptance.

Personally, I would make the judgment of which physician to choose based upon a) medical school reputation and b) residency reputation.

DO schools are just low-mid tier (being generous) MD programs with a bit of magic thrown in...

As long as the physician got into a decent ACGME residency I might look past a DO degree, but DO + DO residency = would not trust the individual with myself, friends or family.
 
SpecterGT260 said:
1. Never blamed anyone for anything
2. Never said it was grounds to deny practicing rights

I'm not saying you mean to say these things either but these are the only ways your statement makes sense in context. This is where you got lost in the ochem thing. You don't seem to be able to follow a logical argument well. "OMM won't always be used just like dies alder reactions" is not a valid counterpoint to "aspects of OMM are not based on good science". Your point relies on acceptance of degree use as the key difference between the teachings. This is why I used the apples and dogs thing. It isn't a hard analogy to follow.... Instead of attacking me for your inability to hang you should probably spend some time trying to decipher the meaning. Basically, I reject your earlier comparison, not because you claim the two are unused, but WHY you claim they are unused. Neither OMM or basic ochem are used in standard practice but the fact that ochem is taught does not validate teaching OMM. You miss the key difference while capitalizing on a coincidental difference to make your point. The argument is a fallacy.
Click to expand...

Again I never made the attempt to argue WHY as it was you who wanted to pursue the why and the evidence based side of your argument because it was never part of mine. Your entire argument is based on one sentence taken out of context because you skimmed over the preceding sentence and you painted as black and white when I made no attempt to equate the two on grounds of evidence, practice rights, or the difference between the validity of each degree. My point was never based on the "acceptance of degree use." And yes it is hard to follow an argument when the other party wants to attack you for something you never said.

However, my point was and still remains that there are certain topics that we learn in school that we may not be thrilled about, but that is no reason to attack the student because that is what they must learn if they are in a DO program. Don't hate the player, hate the game.

Look, I'm not here to defend OMM because my point was that regardless of what a student believes, if they have to learn it they have to learn it. Without getting super particular on whether they are based on fact or theory, which is what your argument has been this entire time, it stands that if you don't care about something but are required to learn it then you just have to suck it up and carry on. That's all I ever said. You can bash the validity of OMM all you want but I want no part in it.

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johnnydrama said:
It varies by location. DOs are fairly well accepted in the Midwest, but if you're on the East coast, DOs have much less acceptance.

Personally, I would make the judgment of which physician to choose based upon a) medical school reputation and b) residency reputation.

DO schools are just low-mid tier (being generous) MD programs with a bit of magic thrown in...

As long as the physician got into a decent ACGME residency I might look past a DO degree, but DO + DO residency = would not trust the individual with myself, friends or family.
Click to expand...

Ok so since you judge physicians solely based on med school/residency reputation. Say you needed G-d forbid to undergo Coronary artery bypass surgery. Based on what your INSURANCE refers within coverage network, you had an option of choosing a cardiothoracic with 20+ years of experience who is a DO who completed his Gen Surg. residency+fellowship at an AOA program. On the other hand you have a newly minted state school MD grad who completed his residency and fellowship at his university medical center ACGME. You would choose the latter right?

Anyways Physician Recruiters wherever, east, west, north, south care about one thing board certification/eligibility and whether or not you had any past history which would bring about any liability issues.
 
I am a MBBS educated outside of North America. Well, guess what, I have got teased many many many times here because my degree is not a MD. For instance, my brother-in-law is a Canadian MD and he teases me as well.

Also I should mention: Because of the extremely competitive nature of Canadian medical schools' admission ( e.g. average entrance GPA is higher than 3.75 for most Canadian medical schools), some Canadian MDs also tease their American counterpart. They often laugh: how come many Americans can get in MD schools with a GPA 3.5 ? No wonder their drop rates in medical schools are much higher.

Now I see many MDs attack DOs here !!! Even if they have the same practicing rights and privilege in medicine !!! I can't help asking: How many of MDs actually read the research articles about OMM and know the fact that many of OMM techniques (if not all) are actually supported by scientific evidence ?? I bet they don't read !!

So the "bad" nature of human beings is obvious enough !! Please keep your minds (and our minds) open, for the grand sake of our patients.
 
On a side note Specter, if you were me and were waitlisted at an MD school with little chance of getting off of it but was accepted to a DO school would you really reject the offer of becoming a doctor in 4 years only to throw your name in the hat again and run the risk of not getting in anywhere the second time?

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SkyRider said:
I am a MBBS educated outside of North America. Well, guess what, I have got teased many many many times here because my degree is not a MD. For instance, my brother-in-law is a Canadian MD.

Also I should mention: Because of the extremely competitive nature of Canadian medical schools' admission ( e.g. average entrance GPA is higher than 3.75 for most Canadian medical schools), some Canadian MDs also tease their American counterpart. They often laugh: how come many Americans can get in MD schools with a GPA 3.5 ? No wonder their drop rates in medical schools are much higher.

Now I see many MDs attack DOs here !!! Even if they have the same practicing rights and privilege in medicine !!! I can't help asking: How many of MDs actually read the research articles about OMM and know the fact that many of OMM techniques (if not all) are actually supported by scientific evidence ?? I bet they don't read !!

So the "bad" nature of human beings is obvious enough !! Please keep your minds (and our minds) open, for the grand sake of our patients.
Click to expand...

I posted a bunch of articles in this thread. Unsure whether or not some chose to at least take a glance at them though. What can i say? I guess pride just blinds people sometimes.
 
Unless things have changed in the past 3 years, DO schools are backup plans for people who can't get into medical school (obviously there are exceptions).

I'm not trying to fan the flames of a DO/MD debate, I just don't see how you can argue the above. I am at a very large top 20 academic institution, and I can count the number of DO's who I have encountered on one hand (they were all very well trained and educated btw).
 
AnthroDocFL said:
On a side note Specter, if you were me and were waitlisted at an MD school with little chance of getting off of it but was accepted to a DO school would you really reject the offer of becoming a doctor in 4 years only to throw your name in the hat again and run the risk of not getting in anywhere the second time?

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Click to expand...

Take what you can get, but that doesn't mean you need to rationalize OMM. Take a stand and try to bring it down from within.
 
auburnO5 said:
Unless things have changed in the past 3 years, DO schools are backup plans for people who can't get into medical school (obviously there are exceptions).

I'm not trying to fan the flames of a DO/MD debate, I just don't see how you can argue the above. I am at a very large top 20 academic institution, and I can count the number of DO's who I have encountered on one hand (they were all very well trained and educated btw).
Click to expand...

last time i checked DO schools are medical schools. Some DO schools have higher admission standards than MD schools. There are those who apply just DO and others MD/DO.
 
SkyRider said:
Now I see many MDs attack DOs here !!! Even if they have the same practicing rights and privilege in medicine !!! I can't help asking: How many of MDs actually read the research articles about OMM and know the fact that many of OMM techniques (if not all) are actually supported by scientific evidence ?? I bet they don't read !!
Click to expand...

Eh... Anytime an MD/DO argument comes up, I always drop the OMM stuff. It's pointless to bring up.

I hear so many allopathic students calling DO students "fake doctors"... yet they don't realize we have to take the same classes as MD students, know the same stuff, and even potentially take the same board exam (USMLE). It's not like the USMLE is different for DO students. Same board exam... same education (relatively), just not entirely the same opportunities.

So for an MD to call a DO a "fake doctor"... well, that's just ridiculous.
 
johnnydrama said:
Take what you can get, but that doesn't mean you need to rationalize OMM. Take a stand and try to bring it down from within.
Click to expand...

Haha there's way too much politics with that. I'm no politician and can't stand it.

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donkeykong1 said:
last time i checked DO schools are medical schools. Some DO schools have higher admission standards than some MD schools. There are those who apply just DO and others MD/DO.
Click to expand...

The very top DO schools are probably better than the worst MD schools. But middle tier MD programs are better than all DO programs.

Some people apply to just DO programs due to self selection, irrational desire to perform OMM, or location.

But let's be honest, most are applying out of necessity.

I would have gone the Ph.D. route before pretending I believed in OMM.
 
johnnydrama said:
The very top DO schools are probably better than the worst MD schools. But middle tier MD programs are better than all DO programs.

Some people apply to just DO programs due to self selection, irrational desire to perform OMM, or location.

But let's be honest, most are applying out of necessity.

I would have gone the Ph.D. route before pretending I believed in OMM.
Click to expand...

This is the fact that nobody on here wants to believe.
 
johnnydrama said:
The very top DO schools are probably better than the worst MD schools. But middle tier MD programs are better than all DO programs.

Some people apply to just DO programs due to self selection, irrational desire to perform OMM, or location.

But let's be honest, most are applying out of necessity.

I would have gone the Ph.D. route before pretending I believed in OMM.
Click to expand...

I would agree when it comes to Research, yes middle tier MD beats out DO any day. But primary care..the US News rankings speak for themselves.

I honestly only "believe" in evidence based OMM, and so should you since as an attending you should be eligible in Peer Review of academic medical journals, and be intelligent enough to decipher what is evidence based and what isn't.
 
johnnydrama said:
The very top DO schools are probably better than the worst MD schools. But middle tier MD programs are better than all DO programs.

Some people apply to just DO programs due to self selection, irrational desire to perform OMM, or location.

But let's be honest, most are applying out of necessity.

I would have gone the Ph.D. route before pretending I believed in OMM.
Click to expand...

Sigh.

Dude is crossing the border into troll-dom. Middle tier MD programs are better than all DO programs? Says who? You?

Generalizations as facts again. The internet is getting boring. 😴

You've made some pretty gritty statements in this thread, and I think we all get it. You think OMM is a joke. Thousands of DO students agree with you. There are many crapshoot classes we need to take to get that "Dr." in front of our names. I don't think it's being expressed as a miracle cure anywhere, so what the hell is it to you?

Do your thing, and let other people do theirs.
 
donkeykong1 said:
I would agree when it comes to Research, yes middle tier MD beats out DO any day. But primary care..the US News rankings speak for themselves.

I honestly only "believe" in evidence based OMM, and so should you since as an attending you should be eligible in Peer Review of academic medical journals, and be intelligent enough to decipher what is evidence based and what isn't.
Click to expand...

Primary care rankings tell you nothing.
 
johnnydrama said:
I would have gone the Ph.D. route before pretending I believed in OMM.
Click to expand...

You would rather be endlessly hunting for grant money? Ugh, no thanks... I don't even know why people get their MD PhD if all they plan to do is practice medicine at an academic institution and do research on the side. The tuition coverage is quite appealing though.

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johnnydrama said:
The very top DO schools are probably better than the worst MD schools. But middle tier MD programs are better than all DO programs.

Some people apply to just DO programs due to self selection, irrational desire to perform OMM, or location.

But let's be honest, most are applying out of necessity.

I would have gone the Ph.D. route before pretending I believed in OMM.
Click to expand...


By taking your logic and opinion, may I make such a claim as: The worst and newest Canadian medical school is better than MOST American MD schools ! Just FYI: Northern Ontario Medical school in Canada was only established in 2005, the average GPA of accepted students is 3.75. And the students board exam passing rate is indeed 100%, and their match rate is also 100% for serveral years in a row.

As for University of Toronto medical school (one of the oldest in Canada), the average GPA of accepted students is 3.85, MCAT 11.6 for each section. May I make a such a claim: The U of T medical school is better than 99% of American MD schools.

Are you satisfied with my claims based on your fishy logic here ?? My point has been made !
 
donkeykong1 said:
I would agree when it comes to Research, yes middle tier MD beats out DO any day. But primary care..the US News rankings speak for themselves.

I honestly only "believe" in evidence based OMM, and so should you since as an attending you should be eligible in Peer Review of academic medical journals, and be intelligent enough to decipher what is evidence based and what isn't.
Click to expand...

The primary care rankings are a little fishy.

One of the main criteria is percentage of the class going into primary care, which in theory sounds good, but in reality how many of those people really wanted to go into primary care vs had no other options? Even in DO programs, many people would choose to specialize if the option were available.

I don't begrudge the existence of DO programs, I'm against the existence of the AOA and OMM. We need more medical schools, but we don't need another degree title with roots in 19th century hogwash.

I'll leave you guys alone now - I really don't care that much, but OMM makes me angry.
 
Nymphicus said:
Primary care rankings tell you nothing.
Click to expand...

those rankings are the only objective piece of garbage we have though lol😎

anyhoo, we need more Internists, Family Practioners, and Pediatricians, and there is no denying that DO schools do a fantastic job in inspiring new ones each year, while leaving the door open for DOs to specialize.
 
johnnydrama said:
The primary care rankings are a little fishy.

One of the main criteria is percentage of the class going into primary care, which in theory sounds good, but in reality how many of those people really wanted to go into primary care vs had no other options? Even in DO programs, many people would choose to specialize if the option were available.

I don't begrudge the existence of DO programs, I'm against the existence of the AOA and OMM. We need more medical schools, but we don't need another degree title with roots in 19th century hogwash.

I'll leave you guys alone now - I really don't care that much, but OMM makes me angry.
Click to expand...

no doubt. parts of it without solid research precedents make me feel the same way.
 
SkyRider said:
By taking your logic and opinion, may I make such a claim as: The worst and newest Canadian medical school is better than MOST American MD schools ! Just FYI: Northern Ontario Medical school in Canada was only established in 2005, the average GPA of accepted students is 3.75. And the students board exam passing rate is indeed 100%, and their match rate is also 100% for serveral years in a row.

As for University of Toronto medical school (one of the oldest in Canada), the average GPA of accepted students is 3.85, MCAT 11.6 for each section. May I make a such a claim: The U of T medical school is better than 99% of American MD schools.

Are you satisfied with my claims based on your fishy logic here ?? My point has been made !
Click to expand...

U of T's MCAT scores would tie it for 16th in the US (so not the 99th %ile).

A 3.75 would be in the low 30s I think, but GPAs are probably harder to compare across countries (or schools for that matter).

I know nothing about Canadian medical schools, but I'm sure they're good. If you can get into one, you should probably go there over a DO program.
 
SLC said:
:laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:


You're an odd duck johnnydrama!

Please though, tell me this: do Physical Therapists get your blood boiling too?
Click to expand...

I beg you just to let it die. Both sides have made decent points here. We fight over this much too often. Everyone just calm down! We're all going to be practicing together one day.
 
SLC said:
:laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:


You're an odd duck johnnydrama!

Please though, tell me this: do Physical Therapists get your blood boiling too?
Click to expand...
Awesome point. Perhaps johnnydrama needs to start considering a new career if MD acceptance doesn't happen. Also, Physical Therapy is extremely useful and will become even more useful as we proceed forward in medicine (personally if I can save a patient from surgery through Physical Therapy, then it is worth every cent and every moment of their time which is also coming from my personal experience). Folks, the point is that in the end you earn a Doctorate of Osteopathy degree so why are we wanting a Doctorate of Medicine degree/title?

Whilst in Medical School, you need to do those things to ensure your acceptance into a Residency program. If you this large of an issue with the DO title, then perhaps you seriously need to consider going into a different field if you are not accepted MD.

I strongly agree that OMM will or will not be used in practice depending on the Physician's specialty and their personal views on the subject. Stating that it is useless is one's personal viewpoint, some will swear by it and some will never use it again once they graduate. In the end, DO and MD students will run across those areas that they will never use again in practice but programs must establish a general education prior to graduation.

The AOA is a very strong organization and even if the AGME keeps with their current decision, trust me there will be other residency options available by the time that students graduate to accommodate the majority of graduating students (every year students don't match in both MD and DO programs). To me this is a huge difference than going to the Caribbean for training versus going DO, as they don't have as much control of residency programs.

I agree full heartedly that I will not be challenged that frequently (<5) by a patient wanting an MD, unless I am a complete ***** (in which case I should probably gtfo out of medicine anyway). My immature colleagues may challenge it, but in the end even that won't be that frequent in practice with the expansion of DOs in the field and the need for physicians.
 
SLC said:
You ever take a look at PT manipulations? Pseudoscience and Quackery right there.
Click to expand...

Yes, but they're fun to watch.

(Also, patients do need people to get them out of bed and walking. I don't want to do it, might as well get some eye candy to do it for us. If they called themselves doctors - like chiropractors for example - that would be a different story.)
 
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