DO programs

[tjmDO]

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Why doesn't anyone here talk about the DO programs? I am looking for info on the DO EM programs. Anyone with any information, lets here it!!!

thanks

 

[stoic]

Let me be the first to suggest that you do a search. This topic has come up a few times.

It's my understanding that a lot of DO EM programs have really low patient volumes/acuity, making them less desirable for really learning about how to handle things in the pit. That said, there are some good ones out there. Check into the programs in NY and OH. Some of the others on the board will be able to get you more specific details about the good programs and the programs you might want to avoid.

Peace,
S.

 

[raptor5]

http://www.acoep.org/

There are programs missing from their site. I emailed them several times. I have been waiting for a reply for many months. I would search the forum for information about your post as it has been discussed several times. To summarize what I have read on the message boards. Some good, some bad, some in danger. Stick with an allo program. But read for yourself b/c I know very little.

 

[docflanny]

Two very reputable DO programs are Mt. Clemens General in Mt. Clemens, MI. This is a 300 bed hospital with a brand new ED and the best technology I've seen so far in my limited tour of 6 hospital systems. The attendings are very friendly and there's a good deal of variety and acuity. It's important that you do a rotation there though.

Another is MSU-Lansing, MI. The program is a combined MD/DO program with 60% of the time spent at Sparrow Hospital a 750 bed hospital and 40% of the time at Ingham Regional Medical Center a 400 bed hospital. The ED at Sparrow is a little older, but they are remodeling it. Overall, the residents are very friendly and you're granted a associate faculty position at MSU. Good program. They take 5 DOs/5 MDs each year.


Matt Flannigan, DO
Sparrow Hospital PGY1

 

[tjmDO]

Thanks Doc
Can you tell me anything about botsford, genesys, and CCOM's EM programs?

thanks

 

[nadeem]

Hi,

...It's been a while since i lurked around this forum, hope evryone is doing well and having fun with their respective residencies...anyways the website for the program is below. The program was my first choice. I have no regrets about joining the program (with the 2 month experience i have eh?). If you have any further questions that you feel would not be on our website, please feel to send me a message....

🙂

Take care,
Ahmed

http://mwunet.midwestern.edu/ccomemres/

 

[Aloha Kid]

I agree.

For some reason, there is still very little comprehensive circulating information around regarding Osteopathic ER residencies. The thought that you have to do a rotation at the facility you are interested in and find out for yourself some basic information is ridiculous.

We don't have 36 extra elective months to check every one out. Not to mention the high amount of osteopathic residencies out there with low volume, no trauma, and poor teaching.

Here is my list of some of the better Osteopathic EM residencies I have heard of personally through word of mouth. This is definitely not an all inclusive list.

1. Midwestern - CCOM
2. Mt. Clemens
3. Doctors Columbus Ohio
4. Genesys Michigan
5. Grandview Ohio

The programs which I hear have caution signs around them are

1. Colton, CA. Hasn't even started, but given the AOA track record, probably will close just as fast as it started.
2. Kingman AZ. Also a new program. The old ER group which originally started the program got outbidded and ousted. The new group is struggling with a new set of residents who by the way replaced an old set of residents that took off once the old group got outbidded.
3. Florida - Last I heard, was in the process of closing
4. Southwestern OK - Malignant

 

[DrMom]

4. Southwestern OK - Malignant

I'll second this one. Even though I want to stay in Oklahoma, I will not be applying to this program. Every time they came to promote themselves at my school the entire program was run differently...major changes. They also are very much a good-old-boy program.

 

[joaquin13]

If you are truly interested in doing a DO EM program, go to the AOA national convention (next one is in Nov in San Francisco) and the ACOEP (american college of osteopathic emergency physicians) have their own meetings. You can meet PDs or chief residents, etc closely and get a chance to get to know the different programs. Also, they have a spring meeting in Phoenix every year with a much smaller number of students. This is a good chance to meet with the different programs and really decide where you want to go.

 

[Homunculus]

They also are very much a good-old-boy program.

works fine for the good ol' boys though 😎

are they really that bad? the students from my class that went there were good people. what happened?

--your friendly neighborhood peds er working caveman

 

[DrMom]

works fine for the good ol' boys though 😎

are they really that bad? the students from my class that went there were good people. what happened?

--your friendly neighborhood peds er working caveman

can't attest to your classmates at all as all the residents I met from there are from before you graduated. The one from your class I know of who went there is a good guy, though.

The program just really concerned me because there were so many dramatic changes each time they showed up. It just didn't seem like a stable program. Just my $0.02 interpretation. 🙂

 

[raptor5]

Here is my list of some of the better Osteopathic EM residencies I have heard of personally through word of mouth. This is definitely not an all inclusive list.

I'll add one. Lehigh Valley Hospital. Time split b/t 2 campuses (10 miles apart). One is community based the other is the highest volume level 1 center in PA. Hospital has many other residencies, of which EM is the only osteopathic one although the IM program may be a dual.
http://www.lvheducation.com/residency/

 

[Seaglass]

highest volume level 1 center in PA

I've rotated at Lehigh, and I find that hard to believe.

 

[raptor5]

I've rotated at Lehigh, and I find that hard to believe.

Just quoting their website. I am thinking that the statement on their website might be misleading. It is a level one center, and b/t all of their ERs they have the highest volume, not necessarily trauma. Not sure if the 17th street hospital has an ER.

Edit:
Correction, website says busiest not highest volume.

 

[bobo]

I was not too impressed with the EMED residents at Muhlenberg, though most of them had a pretty high opinion of themselves. While the Lehigh main hospital certainly is pretty busy and nice and modern, most of your time is spent in the Muhlenberg ED, which is a pretty slow ED in a small community hospital. As I recall, you are only shipped over to LV main for trauma. While they may be busy I just can't see them having much of a knife and gun club.

 

[Aloha Kid]

Ahh,

The truth of someone who has rotated there finally comes out. I've been asking around. A few of the interns I have been working with did an internship year at Grandview ohio. From what they say, it's a pretty crappy ER program. ALmost no trauma, small ER, the typical things we worry about with make shift Osteopathic ER programs.

Based on these interns opinions I have to take Grandview off the list.

I did hear Mt. Clemens was a good program. But, you have to rotate there in order to be accepted.

 

[DrQuinn]

I was not too impressed with the EMED residents at Muhlenberg, though most of them had a pretty high opinion of themselves. While the Lehigh main hospital certainly is pretty busy and nice and modern, most of your time is spent in the Muhlenberg ED, which is a pretty slow ED in a small community hospital. As I recall, you are only shipped over to LV main for trauma. While they may be busy I just can't see them having much of a knife and gun club.

I vaguely remember while I rotated at Einstein in Philly (4 year program) that they did their trauma rotations at Lehigh. Basically from what i gathered Lehigh gets a lot of trauma but odesn't have its own program, but gets visiting residents.

 

[raptor5]

I vaguely remember while I rotated at Einstein in Philly (4 year program) that they did their trauma rotations at Lehigh. Basically from what i gathered Lehigh gets a lot of trauma but odesn't have its own program, but gets visiting residents.

From what I know, which is very little is that Lehigh Valley Hospital or Lehigh Valley Health Network is comprised of 3 hospitals (Muhlenberg, 17th Street, and Cedar Crest) Cedar Crest being the campus with the Level 1 center. Just by looking at the physicians (Labcoats as they are a clinical campus for Penn State) you would not know the difference as to which campus they work at. The EM residency is based out of Muhlenberg but many rotations are done out of the Cedar Crest Campus which is where the majority of their residencies are located at (Except for Dental).

As per their website "Residents will train in the emergency room at Muhlenberg, as well as at Lehigh Valley Hospital Cedar Crest & 1-78 in Allentown. The Cedar Crest site includes Pennsylvania's first and busiest Level I Trauma Center, which includes an accredited pediatric trauma program and Burn Center. The emergency rooms are staffed by one emergency medicine group under a single department of emergency medicine. Residents will be part of a team that cares for more than 94,000 patients a year, including more than 1,000 trauma patients. As part of the region's largest tertiary care facility, Muhlenberg offers the opportunity to acquire the distinct training needed to care for the vast spectrum of illnesses encountered in the emergency department setting. "

While they may be busy I just can't see them having much of a knife and gun club.

After living in this area for some time I would agree as it is not a metro area even though the area it serves is large.

 

[johnthestreak]

does anybody know anything about Memorial in York and about the Einstein program in Philly. I'm worried about york being too low volume.
thanks

 

[DrQuinn]

I interviewed at York (the MD program) and they said the other program gets no experience in trauma. I vaguely remember as a student learning that the DO York program sees ~18k a year.

Einstein is a great program. Dually accredited. I know a lot of alum from the program (at sessamoid's old digs) and they were great. Four years. I did a rotation there and the residents are super sharp (as they should be after a four year program). I just... don't want... four years.

 

[Seaglass]

I have actually been into the "ER" at memorial in York when we went there on a run from the NICU at York Hosp - looks like a tiny place with maybe 10-15 beds. All trauma goes to York Hosp.

 

[sunshine2004]

I was wondering if anyone has participated in the ED/FP program at MSU? I am doing a traditional internship currently and looking to apply to ED/FP programs for 2005.

 

[eadysx]

I was wondering if anyone has participated in the ED/FP program at MSU? I am doing a traditional internship currently and looking to apply to ED/FP programs for 2005.

Are there many programs that have EM/FP?

E-

 

[doc0875]

I would avoid Doctors Hospital. They have only their reputation to carry them. I have worked there & the good reputation they seem to carry is not justified anymore. The North hospital closed & the lectures often do not happen. Furthermore, many ex-residents have sued the hospital for such things as wrongful termination, sexual discrimination, etc. Also, the DME (Dr. Hilliard) can be a real ASS. Ask him about the long drawn out law suit against him & the hospital by Vern Reynolds, D.O. a few yrs ago. Go elsewhere for training, trust me.

 

[fuegorama]

Are there many programs that have EM/FP?

E-

Do a search. Massive thread on this a few months ago.
F

 

[fuegorama]

Impressions on Mt. Sinai in Florida?

 

[iliacus]

Not sure about the program itself, but the ED director Dr. Lang stop by and gave a talk at our school. He seems like a descent guy and offered to help us in any way he could. I was impressed by him. Hope that helps.

 

[Captain Solo]

I would avoid Doctors Hospital. They have only their reputation to carry them. I have worked there & the good reputation they seem to carry is not justified anymore. The North hospital closed & the lectures often do not happen. Furthermore, many ex-residents have sued the hospital for such things as wrongful termination, sexual discrimination, etc. Also, the DME (Dr. Hilliard) can be a real ASS. Ask him about the long drawn out law suit against him & the hospital by Vern Reynolds, D.O. a few yrs ago. Go elsewhere for training, trust me.

I guess everyone has an opinion. I found the program at Columbus to be strong. They had one of the best set up didactic schedules and it was all protected time. I am not sure in my time there that I ever heard of lectures not happening. You were being truthful about the DME from what I have heard, although I never had an interaction with him as a student. Dr. Frazer is a great PD, seems to take quite a bit of interest in his residents. They are having a new ED built, but still in a poor location in town. Hopefully the residents will see more time at Grant Medical Center (level 1). The Children's Hospital rotation is better than most MD prgrams. Along from what I have heard about the MI programs, Doctor's in Columbus is one of the top in the DO world.

 

[Freeeedom!]

This is a serious (yet only an opinion) from a DO that is a 3rd year EM resident (me) in an MD EM program. If you honestly want the best training, you need to seriously consider an allopathic program. I am only telling you the truth. Avoid the DO EM programs, far too unstable, far too many residents in other specialties to support the low level of pathology and patient visits. Trust me. Think allopathic if you are going into EM. Look for dually accredited programs. If you consider Ohio, there are MUCH better programs in the state of Ohio than Doctors or Grandview. Michigan has Lansing which is dual.
Do your homework before you commit.

 

[DrQuinn]

This is a serious (yet only an opinion) from a DO that is a 3rd year EM resident (me) in an MD EM program. If you honestly want the best training, you need to seriously consider an allopathic program. I am only telling you the truth. Avoid the DO EM programs, far too unstable, far too many residents in other specialties to support the low level of pathology and patient visits. Trust me. Think allopathic if you are going into EM. Look for dually accredited programs. If you consider Ohio, there are MUCH better programs in the state of Ohio than Doctors or Grandview. Michigan has Lansing which is dual.
Do your homework before you commit.

I second Freeeeeeeeedom's thoughts. As a DO, I had the option of choosign between DO and MD programs. I interviewed at one MD/DO dually accredited program (Einstein), and a MD program (Univ of MD). As a DO student, I spent time with the EM residents at a DO EM residency and surfed the net oh so much about them (even when emra had their forums). I knew one PGY-2 who went to a DO EM residency and three months in, it closed, with no warning. She luckily was able to match into another DO EM residency but there are some shakeups about that program.

I agree with Freeedom. You cannot compare the average DO EM residency with the MD EM residency... the MD EM residency is far superior.

That being said, I have ONE attending (the only DO attending at my program) who graduated from a DO program and he is sharp as a tack (albeit a little slow). If you are a DO and are atleast an AVERAGE applicant, I think you should shoot for an MD residency.

Back to my Miller Lites.
Q

 

[tjmDO]

Quinn,

Why is it that you and all of the other DO's constantly rip the DO em residencies. If it weren't for recent horrible events such as sept 11th. You may not have a spot at an MD institution, an FMG may have it. As a DO who will probably have to attend an Osteopathic Progam I find it problematic that DO's run from the very programs that are made for them and leave the next generation with less than the previous. It's not like you'll automatically have another DO in your program every year. For some folks the osteopathic residencies are it!

 

[OSUdoc08]

Quinn,

Why is it that you and all of the other DO's constantly rip the DO em residencies. If it weren't for recent horrible events such as sept 11th. You may not have a spot at an MD institution, an FMG may have it. As a DO who will probably have to attend an Osteopathic Progam I find it problematic that DO's run from the very programs that are made for them and leave the next generation with less than the previous. It's not like you'll automatically have another DO in your program every year. For some folks the osteopathic residencies are it!

For the most part,

DO programs require 4 years
MD programs require 3 years

why waste the extra year?

 

[bcrosspac]

Quinn,

Why is it that you and all of the other DO's constantly rip the DO em residencies. If it weren't for recent horrible events such as sept 11th. You may not have a spot at an MD institution, an FMG may have it. As a DO who will probably have to attend an Osteopathic Progam I find it problematic that DO's run from the very programs that are made for them and leave the next generation with less than the previous. It's not like you'll automatically have another DO in your program every year. For some folks the osteopathic residencies are it!

tjmDO:

I can tell you that from my perspective, DO residencies are typically at smaller training institutions. As that pertains to emergency medicine training, I don't necessarily think that it is enough pathology by the sheer volume. I can also say that it is a numbers game as there are far less osteopathic programs compared with allopathic. However, the BIGGEST reason to cross lines is the duration. I firmly believe that one can be well trained in 3 years and the fact that most allopathic programs are 3 years in duration seconds that. So, when I asked the AOA if they would approve any 3 year allopathic EM residency, they said no. So instead of having me remain an AOA member, attend annual osteopathic events, and fufill the other requirements of a DO who wishes to have their allopathic training approved by the AOA, they have alienated me and I have no intention of remaining an AOA member. So while I am not "blasting" the DO programs, I can say that the AOA does not go out of their way to keep DO's loyal to the cause.


Also, many allopathic residencies programs have begun to realize that osteopathic medical training is equal in quality to allopathic and that we perform as well if not better in the residency program. I do not think ostepaths are being more widely accepted due to 9/11; it is because we have earned that right.

Just my .02.

 

[tjmDO]

You are right about the extra year, it does suck!! I do think that slowing the influx of FMG's has opened doors, as well as the realization that DO's are infact at the same level as our Allopathic couterparts. I am not trying to take things from people. I have just done really poorly on step I and I would hate to be reticuled because I couldn't get into an allopathic EM res. I would like to know more about the DO EM progams, but the bashing leads me to believe that my fellow DO's will consider me inferior if I train in an osteopathic program.

You have got to understand that.

 

[DrQuinn]

You are right about the extra year, it does suck!! I do think that slowing the influx of FMG's has opened doors, as well as the realization that DO's are infact at the same level as our Allopathic couterparts. I am not trying to take things from people. I have just done really poorly on step I and I would hate to be reticuled because I couldn't get into an allopathic EM res. I would like to know more about the DO EM progams, but the bashing leads me to believe that my fellow DO's will consider me inferior if I train in an osteopathic program.

You have got to understand that.

Understood. But also read in my post that I said that I have known attendings who went to DO EM residencies and they are just fine (one at a Level 2 Trauma Center at Sessamoid's old digs, one where i'm at now), and they were just as good as anybody else.

But the system itself is riddled with holes. Example: That PGY-2 and the rest of the programs' residents who had to find OTHER programs to apply to because the program abruptly shut down. This was in a major urban city, too! There are a handful of good DO EM programs (Michigan has a few and the mt. sinai program in FL is good).
Q

 

[Freeeedom!]

Some of you must realize there is a difference between "bashing" and "criticism"...or just plain get thicker skin.
There are multiple problems with the DO GME mindset and it hurts its graduates. It is often times the Osteopathic GME mindset to simply "start a residency", literally I have heard with my own ears attendings with NO academic experience, no national speaking experience, and little research experience approached by hospital education directors to "start a residency in X". Having attendings and willing residents (and AOA support ) should not be the motivating factor behind residencies...it takes so much more.
There are MULTIPLE osteopathic teaching hospitals with more than 10 residencies in multiple fields...in hospitals that are less than 400 beds and aren't even trauma centers!!
Think of this, if the local DO hospital (a term which I hate) of 400 beds and a 40k ED census has residencies ranging from CT surgery to neurosurgery to ENT...what procedures do you think you may get in the ED??? Do you really think you will be first in line for the chest tube, the ear or lip lac, the hip or shoulder reduction, the trauma intubation? Of course not...those residents are DYING for procedures...often timese those residents go to >3 hospitals for call just to get their numbers.
I personally don't think that is fair for anyone involved. You get residents fighting for procedures that they need to have.
I am in a city with a DO residency (one of the best known in the country), and they come to OUR didactics ( a sure sign of weakness), they come to OUR journal clubs, their residents come to our hospitals for surgical call...they need to depend on other systems for numbers and for education.

I think that is cheating their residents. I think it is shameful that these residents bust their asses running all over the city to get their "numbers" and the attendings at their own hospitals can't even provide decent didactics or learning environments.
DO residencies need to consolidate and focus. Maybe then some of the problems would be solved...and fewer upstarts would close shortly after opening.

 

[tjmDO]

This of course is a never ending problem and will be a debate for the ages. I do think you are bashing however, because criticism is when you instruct the parties at hand of their problems, not behind their back. Anyway, I started this thread in hopes of learning about the different DO EM programs not the DO EM residencies as a group. I know they don't have the same facilities and volumes as the allopaths, but just tell me about the DO EM residencies that you know of.

 

[Freeeedom!]

Well get thicker skin Tjm. You must be of the "love it or leave it" breed, see ya can't always confront those that need to change (government, political leaders, administration, and hospital policy)...and it ain't "bashing" if it is the truth.

 

[tjmDO]

thanks freedom for letting me realize I am a "love or leave it" type. Give me a break! I am not an OMM guru or a die hard OMT can fix the world person. I am just a realist and I know that the DO residencies were created so we DO's would have a place to train. lets face it there are still places that do not allow osteopaths in. anyway no more pissin and moanin out of me. Just tell me what you know about the DO EM residencies

 

[Emo]

You are right about the extra year, it does suck!! I do think that slowing the influx of FMG's has opened doors, as well as the realization that DO's are infact at the same level as our Allopathic couterparts. I am not trying to take things from people. I have just done really poorly on step I and I would hate to be reticuled because I couldn't get into an allopathic EM res. I would like to know more about the DO EM progams, but the bashing leads me to believe that my fellow DO's will consider me inferior if I train in an osteopathic program.

You have got to understand that.

tjm,
Hey. I was in a similar position as you last year. I did not do so stellar on step 1 of the COMLEX ( didn't take the USMLE, either) and I performed even worse on step 2. I was debating between applying to DO or MD residencies. I ended up participating in both matches, sort of.
Of the DO programs, I interviewed at Columbus, Mount Sinai, and MSU-Lansing...all solid programs. I was actually offered a spot at Mount Sinai but declined, which was really, really difficult because I love South Florida. The thing is, I wasn't choosing a residency for its favorable location, or to demonstrate loyalty to our profession...I wanted to go to a program that would groom me to become a competent, even good EM doc. My decision was made with no regard to my crappy GPA and board scores. I ended up ranking only MSU's 2 linked programs and did not match. I took a huge risk and I waited for the allopathic match, with all of my 3 programs on my rank order list and matched.
Actually, I was willing to complete the osteopathic internship year as long as I was trained in EM at a place I wanted to go to. Now, I am approved to have my first year count as an AOA-approved internship year as long as I do a family medicine month in the first year (that's a whole other topic)...I need to thank Q for giving me some advice...Thanks Quinn!!!
Anyway, I hope this helps. Drop me a PM anytime.

Em

 

[tjmDO]

Thanks EMO

You are right, I don't want to go to a residency because it is osteopathic or allopathic, I want to go somewhere that will allow me the opportunity to become a complete EM physician. I will most certainly apply to both DO and MD residencies, but if my step I score (187) keeps me out of the MD race I want to know that my osteopathic education will be a good one and that my fellow DO's will not look down upon that.

thanks

 

[Freeeedom!]

Look REALLY hard at the MD/DO programs (Einstein etc), look at Toledo which is a fantastic program and has a TON of DO's...look at Lansing. I realize your question is about DO programs, but if we are talking cars, I think you need to consider something besides a Kia or Hyundai.
Columbus is a good program, but suffers from the problems I have previously mentioned (too many residencies at a too small of a hospital) and suffers from Ohio State Being in town.
Seems Like Oklahoma State would be a reliable choice, as would Lansing. Midwestern suffers an identity problem, St. Barnabas is in the Bronx and is clearly a second tier NY program, Grandview suffers from being in the same city as Wright State, the other Ohio programs I would avoid like the plague.
Genesys is a big place, but really unknown to me...Botsford has too many other specialties.
If I were you, rotate at an Allopathic institution and a DO institution, apply to the match...if you don't match, then scramble into a DO program, there will be slots available.
If you can rotate at Toledo or Lansing...I would really look into those places.

 

[gree0411]

What are the other dually accredited programs besides Einstein? Thanks.

 

[Emo]

What are the other dually accredited programs besides Einstein? Thanks.

The MSUCOM program in East Lansing is dually accredited, i.e. you can sit for both boards. And I think there is another one in Newark, NJ.
Last year, to apply to Einstein you had to go through ERAS and participate in the MD match. This year, I heard that application to osteopathic programs will go through ERAS. I'm not sure what implications this will have on future applicants.

Em, DO

 

[VentdependenT]

CCOM program sounds good. I have a few fellow classmates in it. Lots of exposure but you rotate at many hospitals, which require driving. Cook County is one of em.

 

[docflanny]

Only DO fellowships are available via ERAS this year. Residency applications for DO or DO/MD (MSUCOM-Lansing) are still a paper applications that you have to request individually from the programs, unless, of course, the DO residencies have finally agreed on using their universal application.

Good luck to all the D.O.s out there who will be asked their verbal commitment in the next two months, 4 months ahead of the match in Feb. It's a frustrating time. Good luck. Great if you're confident you want to be at a specific DO program because you hear early.

 

[joshua_msu]

If you are a DO and are atleast an AVERAGE applicant, I think you should shoot for an MD residency.

Back to my Miller Lites.
Q

What would you say is average?

Where can I find a list of dually accredited residnecies? I looked a ACOEP's website and could not seem to find it. Thanks.

 

[joshua_msu]

For the most part,

DO programs require 4 years
MD programs require 3 years

why waste the extra year?

If you are a DO and choose the MD residency route, can you get your intership year waived if you choose to practice in Michigan or any of the other four or five states? Is it hard?

 

[DrQuinn]

If you are a DO and choose the MD residency route, can you get your intership year waived if you choose to practice in Michigan or any of the other four or five states? Is it hard?

Average Applicant = average board scores +/- one SD. Average GPA +/- one SD. Get it?

Out of the 400 people who applied to get the AOA internship waived by attending an MD residency, only FOUR have been rejected. Therefore, it is not hard at all to get the internship waived. The DO schools will keep this secret from you, as they want you to stay in the "osteopathic world." But in reality, it is so easy to get waived its not even an issue.

Q

 

[kungfufishing]

sometimes, they make it so hard to be a DO, and it sucks. Especially the prevalence of the "scare em so they'll stay in the fold" tactic.