DO resident completing and MD fellowship

This forum made possible through the generous support of SDN members, donors, and sponsors. Thank you.
B

BlakeC93

Full Member
10+ Year Member
Joined
Jun 28, 2012
Messages
48
Reaction score
0
Points
1
  1. Pre-Medical
Advertisement - Members don't see this ad
If I were to get a D.O. at the Oklahoma State University College of Osteopathic Medicine, then complete an Orthopedic Surgery residency at the Oklahoma State University College of Osteopathic Medicine, would I be able to apply to allopathic fellowships, like a Spine Surgery fellowship? What kind of process would it be? What kind of speed bumps would I face? What kind of chance would I have to get the spot? Thanks!
 
BlakeC93 said:
If I were to get a D.O. at the Oklahoma State University College of Osteopathic Medicine, then complete an Orthopedic Surgery residency at the Oklahoma State University College of Osteopathic Medicine, would I be able to apply to allopathic fellowships, like a Spine Surgery fellowship? What kind of process would it be? What kind of speed bumps would I face? What kind of chance would I have to get the spot? Thanks!
Click to expand...

325552-bigthumbnail.jpg
 
...that...that doesn't really answer my question...
 
Lets first worry about getting into med school. Then you can worry about whether or not you still like orthosurg at the end of those 4 years ok?
 
Let's answer my question and leave the condescending remarks to the allopathic boards. I have a good reason to ask the question.
 
BlakeC93 said:
Let's answer my question and leave the condescending remarks to the allopathic boards. I have a good reason to ask the question.
Click to expand...

So asking premeds about concerns one would have as a resident seemed like a good idea to you?

I'd advise you to go to the medical student boards and ask this question, or you know...use google.
 
BlakeC93 said:
Let's answer my question and leave the condescending remarks to the allopathic boards. I have a good reason to ask the question.
Click to expand...

no you don't. you may think you have a good reason, but you don't.

generally no. i think right now it is POSSIBLE, but there is a policy in the works that says that DOs must do an MD residency to do an MD fellowship. plus, ortho surgery is one of the few fields left are "heavily biased" against DO training. The PDs are too old school I guess. not going to happen. But you are asking a lot of "ifs" and you are getting your cart before the horse.
 
I believe you can get into an MD fellowship after a DO residency, but you would not be eligible for the MD boards. You would have to petition the AOA and then take the equivalent DO boards for it to be "board certified"

Confusing? Yes. but so is OMM
 
FrkyBgStok said:
no you don't. you may think you have a good reason, but you don't.

i think right now it is POSSIBLE, but there is a policy in the works that says that DOs must do an MD residency to do an MD fellowship. .
Click to expand...

This is true...however, the status of the policy is unknown as the AMA/AOA battle it out. Hopefully it won't pass in its present state.

Oh, and just to tell you before you ask: you don't become an MD once you finish an ACGME approved residency/fellowship. Your DO initials remain intact.
 
Advertisement - Members don't see this ad
Mbeas said:
you don't become an MD once you finish an ACGME approved residency/fellowship. Your DO initials remain intact.
Click to expand...

What? I didn't read that in the manual....
 
BlakeC93 said:
If I were to get a D.O. at the Oklahoma State University College of Osteopathic Medicine, then complete an Orthopedic Surgery residency at the Oklahoma State University College of Osteopathic Medicine, 1)would I be able to apply to allopathic fellowships, like a Spine Surgery fellowship?
2)What kind of process would it be? What kind of speed bumps would I face?
3)What kind of chance would I have to get the spot? Thanks!
Click to expand...

I only know this because the DO i shadow did this....

1) Yes
2) Same as every MD faces that wants to get into an MD fellowship, however the speed bumbs you may encounters are in academic medicine. If after your fellowship you wanted to work for an allo residency program, they will not hire you. They expect an MD residency and an MD fellowship. If you don't have any interest in working in academic medicine then your fine.
3) Good assuming everything else is in order.

Keep in mind though, everyone else is correct on this thread. This is not some thing you need to be concerned with right now. Get into medical school then sweat this stuff, just keep in mind regardless of the letters behind your name you can get into a MD residency in ortho.
 
As of right now, technically, yes. The FP I shadowed had a Sports Med MD fellowship. They are trying to close that avenue and force it so that only MD trained residents can do MD fellowships.
 
Wish I would have seen this earlier so that I could say, good job for looking ahead.

I'm not sure why the knee jerk response here is, "get into medical school first". Everyone should have a 5 and 10 year plan as well as career goals. It's ok to ask about residency and fellowship opportunities, even as a high schooler. it's ok to suggest one focuses on the now, but not ONLY the now!

So, good job for the real answers here. It looks like you got the right answer from worldchanger and triage and kudos from me for planning ahead. Good luck this cycle and in your future endeavors.
 
@BlakeC93 the answer to your question is no. the proposal to limit aoa trained DOs to complete acgme fellowships passed last month.

http://www.osteopathic.org/inside-a...ily-report-blog/Lists/Posts/Post.aspx?ID=2756

before you jump into any conclusions, ask yourself the following:

1) how many acgme accredited spine fellowships are there? not all acgme trained orthopods go onto fellowships

2) are there any non-accredited ones, in which case you can apply to those after doing aoa ortho

3) finally, get into med school first before worrying about this stuff
 
Advertisement - Members don't see this ad
donkeykong1 said:
@BlakeC93 the answer to your question is no. the proposal to limit aoa trained DOs to complete acgme fellowships passed last month.

http://www.osteopathic.org/inside-a...ily-report-blog/Lists/Posts/Post.aspx?ID=2756

before you jump into any conclusions, ask yourself the following:

1) how many acgme accredited spine fellowships are there? not all acgme trained orthopods go onto fellowships

2) are there any non-accredited ones, in which case you can apply to those after doing aoa ortho

3) finally, get into med school first before worrying about this stuff
Click to expand...

I don't think it has been passed yet.

That link says the AMA passed a resolution; not the ACGME. It goes on to say, "this resolution will not compel the ACGME to withdraw its proposed Requirements." I could be wrong.
 
DolFAN said:
Lets first worry about getting into med school. Then you can worry about whether or not you still like orthosurg at the end of those 4 years ok?
Click to expand...

I don't know why people always say this. I think people should be well informed about the limitations of osteopathic medicine before applying.
 
BlakeC93 said:
Let's answer my question and leave the condescending remarks to the allopathic boards. I have a good reason to ask the question.
Click to expand...

you understand that this statement is condescending to allopathic people, right? irony....

and you may think you have a good reason to ask the question, but honestly google could give you the answer if you were only to look up the status of the new policy proposal on the subject rather than asking to be spoon fed the answer and aside from that, your reasons are what sounds good to a pre med. There is approximately a 99% chance that you will not be in a position to apply to an ACGME fellowship for ortho for a combination of getting in to med school, deciding you like ortho after actually having tried it in rotations, successfully matching ortho in either AOA or preferably ACGME (which is very difficult for DO but preferable if you want the fellowship), and then having the proper credentials that an ACGME fellowship will be interested in you, and also at that point, after ~10 years, deciding you want more training rather than to just go work and make money. All these combined, Id say we are a little premature with this issue.....

TL;DR
google it
 
the wording here is deliberately cryptic but "The AMA is a parent organization of the ACGME, but this resolution will not compel the ACGME to withdraw its proposed Requirements". This basically means the ACGME got the green light for the proposal from the AMA...hence proposal will pass the next time the acgme convenes
 
donkeykong1 said:
@BlakeC93 the answer to your question is no. the proposal to limit aoa trained DOs to complete acgme fellowships passed last month.

http://www.osteopathic.org/inside-a...ily-report-blog/Lists/Posts/Post.aspx?ID=2756

before you jump into any conclusions, ask yourself the following:

1) how many acgme accredited spine fellowships are there? not all acgme trained orthopods go onto fellowships

2) are there any non-accredited ones, in which case you can apply to those after doing aoa ortho

3) finally, get into med school first before worrying about this stuff
Click to expand...

While the ACGME's proposal would limit DOs' ability to train in their programs, the resolution calls upon the AMA to partner with stakeholder organizations, including the ACGME and the AOA, to develop and revise residency and fellowship accreditation standards in order to recognize the alignment of the educational experience of allopathic and osteopathic residents.
Click to expand...

this smells like a double edged sword if ive ever heard one.... (wait... I used the wrong sensory imagery there.....)

But Id bet this will lead to MDs in the AOA match just as quick as it will protect DOs in AGCME fellowships. (bold)
The other way this could be interpreted is that the AOA will have to meet ACGME accreditation standards in order to be eligible for fellowships. (underlined)
queue ominous music.
 
Last edited:
donkeykong1 said:
the wording here is deliberately cryptic but "The AMA is a parent organization of the ACGME, but this resolution will not compel the ACGME to withdraw its proposed Requirements". This basically means the ACGME got the green light for the proposal from the AMA...hence proposal will pass the next time the acgme convenes
Click to expand...

That's too bad if its true.
 
donkeykong1 said:
the wording here is deliberately cryptic but "The AMA is a parent organization of the ACGME, but this resolution will not compel the ACGME to withdraw its proposed Requirements". This basically means the ACGME got the green light for the proposal from the AMA...hence proposal will pass the next time the acgme convenes
Click to expand...

right. being on the AOA site there is a specific positive flavor (after all they want applicants to apply....). What does the AMA or ACGME say about it?
 
SpecterGT260 said:
right. being on the AOA site there is a specific positive flavor (after all they want applicants to apply....). What does the AMA or ACGME say about it?
Click to expand...

More importantly, when does the ACGME next meet?

If I were not yet in medical school, I would assume that ACGME fellowships will be off limits to people who don't complete ACGME residencies by the time that became relevant to me.
 
Advertisement - Members don't see this ad
johnnydrama said:
More importantly, when does the ACGME next meet?

If I were not yet in medical school, I would assume that ACGME fellowships will be off limits to people who don't complete ACGME residencies by the time that became relevant to me.
Click to expand...

There are electing new people right now, I think. I was told they weren't going to decide this issue until after the elections.
 
cliquesh said:
That's too bad if its true.
Click to expand...

yep. but the trajectory of all this seems to be a consolidation of MD and DO GME. the first signs were in dually accredited programs. won't be surprised to see all program get D.A in the next few years...
 
donkeykong1 said:
yep. but the trajectory of all this seems to be a consolidation of MD and DO GME. the first signs were in dually accredited programs. won't be surprised to see all program get D.A in the next few years...
Click to expand...

I would.... You would be asking private entities to give up their autonomy. There really isnt any incentive to do this... I would say there is actually probably zero chance of dual accreditation making it big for a very long time. More likely it will remain the "2 party system" with a love-hate relationship as they try to play nice :meanie:
 
SpecterGT260 said:
I would.... You would be asking private entities to give up their autonomy. There really isnt any incentive to do this... I would say there is actually probably zero chance of dual accreditation making it big for a very long time. More likely it will remain the "2 party system" with a love-hate relationship as they try to play nice :meanie:
Click to expand...

hmmm..what is that supposed to mean? funding for residency programs comes form medicare.
 
donkeykong1 said:
hmmm..what is that supposed to mean? funding for residency programs comes form medicare.
Click to expand...

the AMA, AOA, and ACGME are not government agencies. They may have contracts with the government, but that doesnt mean that they are not private sector organizations.
 
SpecterGT260 said:
the AMA, AOA, and ACGME are not government agencies. They may have contracts with the government, but that doesnt mean that they are not private sector organizations.
Click to expand...

they are quasi-gov/private. the government has them on the noose now with cost cutting/accountability being the fad
 
They have that power all over the place. that doesnt mean the government is going to force them to dissolve current structures.

also, did you see my first post up here about the implications of the AOA's spin on this? I am curious what you thought.
 
SpecterGT260 said:
They have that power all over the place. that doesnt mean the government is going to force them to dissolve current structures.

also, did you see my first post up here about the implications of the AOA's spin on this? I am curious what you thought.
Click to expand...

I don't know. I heard someone from the AOA talk about this a month ago or so. They were saying that the proposal was aimed at IMGs and, inadvertently, DOs were also affected. She seemed pretty confidentant that things would work out for the AOA/DOs. She went on to say, that incase things do not go as planned, the AOA has already started an initiative to expand their fellowship programs. This proposal really only affects DOs in surgery and the surgical subspecialities, as well as radiology.
 
Advertisement - Members don't see this ad
cliquesh said:
I don't know. I heard someone from the AOA talk about this a month ago or so. They were saying that the proposal was aimed at IMGs and, inadvertently, DOs were also affected. She seemed pretty confidentant that things would work out for the AOA/DOs. She went on to say, that incase things do not go as planned, the AOA has already started an initiative to expand their fellowship programs. This proposal really only affects DOs in surgery and the surgical subspecialities, as well as radiology.
Click to expand...

I dont think you guys understand what I am getting at here.... despite relying on gov funds (which TONS of organizations do) they are private sector entities. It is unlikely that the government will simply restructure them as they do not have that authority. They can withhold funds to pressure the organizations to play nice, but it is very unlikely that the government will actually put down an explicit change and enforce it. That just doesnt really happen.
 
SpecterGT260 said:
also, did you see my first post up here about the implications of the AOA's spin on this? I am curious what you thought.
Click to expand...

i agree public relations was at work there. ama/acgme wouldn't really care. they have no interest in DOs unless they're paying annual dues
 
donkey, i found the PDF in there (that site is still a PITA)..... I am not reading all of that 😛
how about a synopsis of your point instead 👍
 
SpecterGT260 said:
I dont think you guys understand what I am getting at here.... despite relying on gov funds (which TONS of organizations do) they are private sector entities. It is unlikely that the government will simply restructure them as they do not have that authority. They can withhold funds to pressure the organizations to play nice, but it is very unlikely that the government will actually put down an explicit change and enforce it. That just doesnt really happen.
Click to expand...

I was just responding to, "also, did you see my first post up here about the implications of the AOA's spin on this? I am curious what you thought."

And my point was, after listening to this AOA representative, I dont think the AOA is too concerned, so their "positive spin" was expected, at least by me.

And, yea, the AOA doesn't want to give up any power nor does the ACGME or AMA. I get it.
 
donkeykong1 said:
i agree public relations was at work there. ama/acgme wouldn't really care. they have no interest in DOs unless they're paying annual dues
Click to expand...

I meant more along the lines of the real world implications. When I read the AOAs spin on that ruling, what I am hearing is either across the board acknowledgement of sameness which could destroy any argument the AOA had to exclude MDs from the AOA match, or when they talk about restructuring accredidation I hear "the AOA will be forced to comply with ACGME standards" which again could result in MDs in the AOA match but could otherwise result in the AOA losing some of its power (in a "either you guys play ball with what we want or you're out of our club" sort of way)

This doesnt seem like a positive thing for the AOA in any way. Especially given the level of brixsh***ing that the AOA has been doing and when the resolution basically comes down that "Nope, we arent going to tell the ACGME not to do this" they are suddenly happy.... that is PR work at its best :laugh:
 
cliquesh said:
I was just responding to, "also, did you see my first post up here about the implications of the AOA's spin on this? I am curious what you thought."

And my point was, after listening to this AOA representative, I dont think the AOA is too concerned, so their "positive spin" was expected.

And, yea, the AOA doesn't want to give up any power nor does the ACGME or AMA. I get it.
Click to expand...

oh ok, then I misunderstood 👍
 
donkeykong1 said:
click on the link "text"

here i did it for u: http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/PLAW-105publ33/html/PLAW-105publ33.htm

basically clinton made the ama/aoa/acgme shut down a bunch of hospitals, freeze residency programs, a lot of dual accreditation came out of this
Click to expand...

SpecterGT260 said:
donkey, i found the PDF in there (that site is still a PITA)..... I am not reading all of that 😛
how about a synopsis of your point instead 👍
Click to expand...

right....

I am not aware of "a lot of dual accreditation" to begin with... We can wait and see what happens and until then just disagree, but I do not think the gov will simply lump the two together. And without reading everything I strongly suspect that the government did not do anything in this situation short of withholding money and having a few basic milestones that had to be met in order to get it back (which appear on the surface to be budget related). What "came out of this" is likely a result of the AMA and AOA doing their thing to make ends meet, but was not directly dictated by the government. This is what I was getting at. Since the government doesnt have the authority to dictate policy in this matter, I predict the AMA and AOA to find every way possible to remain independent while fulfilling expectations laid out by the gov to receive funding.
 
I think I found what you are talking about..... but it should be understood that this is not Clinton making anyone do anything. This is incentive based legislation. The AMA and AOA were perfectly capable of not doing anything.... Even though I am still searching for something that clearly indicates dual accreditation... A good bit of the language is either non specific or talks about each program type independently. if you have a specific section that would be nice....

Edit: and every time the word osteopathic is mentioned it in the context of limiting the number of both allopathic and osteopathic residents with respect to the hospitals fiscal reportings..... (per the "find" function) I still dont see how this is leading to dual accreditation short of a hail mary pass by hospitals desperate to save funding.
 
SpecterGT260 said:
I think I found what you are talking about..... but it should be understood that this is not Clinton making anyone do anything. This is incentive based legislation. The AMA and AOA were perfectly capable of not doing anything.... Even though I am still searching for something that clearly indicates dual accreditation... A good bit of the language is either non specific or talks about each program type independently. if you have a specific section that would be nice....
Click to expand...

What year are you, specter? I'm a 4th year
 
Advertisement - Members don't see this ad
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

Ho0v-man
DO vs Carib MD podcast episode
Replies
3
Views
2K
Ho0v-man
Ho0v-man
Meganerd2012
  • Question Question
DO acceptance or Conditional MD SMP acceptance
Replies
27
Views
6K
Meganerd2012
Meganerd2012
S
Interesting Take - Canadian MD vs US DO
Replies
2
Views
2K
sky778
S
M
Apply DO or wait a year to apply DO + MD
Replies
5
Views
3K
Mr.Smile12
Mr.Smile12
P
Worth completing secondaries?
Replies
1
Views
1K
Goro
Goro
Top Bottom