DO seems way more competitive

[tom10]

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You can always do the IBR/PAYE thing. Depending on your debt and expected annual income, you may end up saving money in the long run.

This is why I'm only paying $270 a month. If you are speaking of the 10 year loan forgiveness working for a not for profit or an area in need, there is talks of limiting the reimbursement to only ~$58k.

 

[mathnerd88]

Please see my previous post. I don't know a single person making 80k out of college in any field other than biomedical engineering and that is just one guy. Anesthesia can easily make $400k as an attending first year out and that isn't even working hard. ER can make 500k with 15 shifts a month. The whole doctors not making much money this is really garbage unless you're doing academia and even then, you're not exactly roughing it.

I also know plenty of people buying a home right out of medical school. Yes, medical school, not residency. Loans are easy to get when you're a physician. "$330k in the hole and you want a loan? Ha! You're nuts!....Oh, you just graduated medical school? Here's $250k no questions asked."

Uhh...you're wrong about anesthesia making that much. How do I know? My sister is an attending anesthesiologist.

$400k is without health insurance and malpractice insurance and tax. Take all of that away, you'll make WAY less than you think.

You keep thinking that it is EASY to find a job out of medical school. That's not true.

 

[IslandStyle808]

Let's put it this way. Consultants straight out of college already make at least $80k a year, not even with signing bonuses. By the time doctors are out of residency, consultants already have made $640k ahead of you AND don't have loans. (That's also assuming their pay never increases, but it does per year.) Adding your student loans and interest, you are about almost a million dollars behind.

By the time you become a doctor, consultants already make almost the same pay as you. I believe people have the completely WRONG idea about how much doctors actually make. Back in the 90's and early 2000's doctors made WAY more. With the healthcare system changing, it won't be as lavish anymore.

Being a doctor DOES NOT give you as much money as you think. My sister is an attending as an anesthesiologist is still making not as much. Guess how much doctors make as a resident? Only $50-60k a year. Want to buy a house? You're going to have to wait until you're almost 40.

If you want to be a doctor for the money, you're out of your mind. Marry someone with a nice job to also help you.

He is not talking about making bank, he is taking about having a decent living. You can't just compare it to fields like being an actuary or being in phrama. You need to compare it with everything else.

Here is an example. There is a field call neuroclinical psychology. You need to do 4-5 years in a doctorate, 1 year internship, and 2 years fellowship (7 years of training). You will be paying back around 200K after you finish. Guess how much they make on average? 90K a year! The people who make more have to be very good at setting up shop and getting clients. You'd be better off as a psychiatrist making at LEAST 200K with 300K of debt coming out. Plus you deal with very similar patients anyway.

If you don't look at other fields, good and bad, you won't understand whether medicine is really worth it or not.

 

[TheBoneDoctah]

Uhh...you're wrong about anesthesia making that much. How do I know? My sister is an attending anesthesiologist.

$400k is without health insurance and malpractice insurance and tax. Take all of that away, you'll make WAY less than you think.

Your sister is one doctor. I know many anesthesiologist a making that much.

 

[tom10]

Uhh...you're wrong about anesthesia making that much. How do I know? My sister is an attending anesthesiologist.

I am absolutely not wrong. Your sister is either working in an area "more desirable" than the midwest or in academia. I know exactly how the anesthesiologists get paid and have seen their income from the past year. One, who works way too much, hit over 700k.

 

[mathnerd88]

Your sister is one doctor. I know many anesthesiologist a making that much.

Yes, but you don't know NEW ones.

I already stressed that it was very profitable in the 90's and the 2000's. You don't know what Obamacare does and how it will affect the future of healthcare.

It JUST started, so it is changing the whole healthcare system around. Hello bundled payments! No more overcharging for miscellaneous services.

 

[Postictal Raiden]

This is why I'm only paying $270 a month. If you are speaking of the 10 year loan forgiveness working for a not for profit or an area in need, there is talks of limiting the reimbursement to only ~$58k.

No, I'm referring to the 25/20 year repayment plan under IBR/PAYE.

 

[mathnerd88]

I am absolutely not wrong. Your sister is either working in an area "more desirable" than the midwest or in academia. I know exactly how the anesthesiologists get paid and have seen their income from the past year. One, who works way too much, hit over 700k.

If you want to live in the middle of nowhere, that's your prerogative. Most physicians don't wanna go there. That's why they pay a lot more.

Don't forget, you have to think about your kids too. I would prefer them living in more desirable locations so they can have a chance at better schooling.

 

[tom10]

If you want to live in the middle of nowhere, that's your prerogative. Most physicians don't wanna go there. That's why they pay a lot more.

I wouldn't call a city of 150k the middle of nowhere, but I see you are now changing the direction of the conversation so I digress.

 

[mathnerd88]

I wouldn't call a city of 150k the middle of nowhere.

How about the public school system?

Like I said, there's a reason why they pay more. It is less desirable area for a reason.

Obviously, in ANY profession, you can make more if you go to a less desirable location. That wasn't my point. It's all about supply and demand. Most physicians care about where they live for the rest of their careers. Money isn't important when you're unhappy where you are.

 

[TheBoneDoctah]

Yes, but you don't know NEW ones.

I already stressed that it was very profitable in the 90's and the 2000's. You don't know what Obamacare does and how it will affect the future of healthcare.

It JUST started, so it is changing the whole healthcare system around. Hello bundled payments! No more overcharging for miscellaneous services.

Even with the decrease in salaries, you are still
Making GOOD money. I'll take being a physician and making good money that isn't as much as it used to be OVER being a lab assistant and making $16 an hour my entire life.

 

[mathnerd88]

Even with the decrease in salaries, you are still
Making GOOD money. I'll take being a physician and making good money that isn't as much as it used to be OVER being a lab assistant and making $16 an hour my entire life.

But you don't have to be a lab assistant...you can get your masters and then make $100k in industry a year. That's good money too.

My point is this...if you want to be a physician for the money, you're in the WRONG business. Don't expect to live a lavish lifestyle. You're also spending an extra 4 years in school with another 4 years in residency with many more exams and stress.

 

[tom10]

How about the public school system?

Like I said, there's a reason why they pay more. It is less desirable area for a reason.

Well, I came from a school in that city which was very good. Plenty of awards and its just a public school. There are three particularly good schools, one being private. There are some average schools and two particularly below average schools. I had everything available to me. I will say though, it is not a destination city. It is a decent city with a low cost of living with a few extremely nice neighborhoods which is where pretty much all the doctor's live. Anyway, we're getting a bit off topic. You can PM me if you want to know more.

 

[TheBoneDoctah]

But you don't have to be a lab assistant...you can get your masters and then make $100k in industry a year. That's good money too.

My point is this...if you want to be a physician for the money, you're in the WRONG business. Don't expect to live a lavish lifestyle.

I agree with you that if you are only going for money it's a bad idea, but saying that the money isn't good in itself is misleading.

 

[Gandyy]

I agree with you that if you are only going for money it's a bad idea, but saying that the money isn't good in itself is misleading.

If you live extremely conservatively after residency, then I dont understand how a 300k loan cannot be paid off in a 2 or 3 years even on a PCP physician salary.

If you want to buy 15 ferraris and 94 private jets first, then you cant complain about the loan.

 

[mathnerd88]

If you live extremely conservatively after residency, then I dont understand how a 300k loan cannot be paid off in a 2 or 3 years even on a PCP physician salary.

If you want to buy 15 ferraris and 94 private jets first, then you cant complain about the loan.

$300k loan can be paid off in 2 or three years if there was no interest. However, every year you're probably going to have to pay $24k in interest per year STARTING from residency. That $300k loan can easily become $400k-$420k you owe by the time you come out of residency. After taking away your taxes and living extremely conservatively, you're going to have to pay it off in 5 years or a little longer.

You also have to probably think about a house and a car by then, because you're in your early 30's if you're not taking any gap years. If you take gap years, then you would be nearing your mid 30's by the time you graduate residency. Oh yeah, and kids too. Did I mention having a family is also really expensive?

I'm not saying it is not financially feasible...just that it isn't going to be a good and lavish lifestyle as most people think. Not until you are at least 40 or older.

 

[Seth Joo]

The thing is.... DO schools are as competitive are MD schools (2.5 applicants to 1 seat). The difference is the pool of applicants applying to DO schools (lower stats as a whole). With the recession lifting, increasing tuition, and mid-level pathways becoming more prevalent, there will be a point where medical school won't be worth it from a financial perspective.

I applied both MD and DO, I would say MD is much harder to get into than DO. I got only two interviews at MD schools and did not get into either school. I got a lot more interviews at DO schools and got several offers of admission. DO schools are getting harder to get into which is true but still I think someone with a 27 or higher MCAT should be okay for most schools. MD schools have also become tougher to gain admission as well, but I would not say DO schools are as tough to get into than MD schools.

Also the pool of applicants is different at both types of schools, the most competitive applicants apply MD while DO schools have more variation in applicant academic stats.

 

[IslandStyle808]

How about the public school system?

Like I said, there's a reason why they pay more. It is less desirable area for a reason.

Obviously, in ANY profession, you can make more if you go to a less desirable location. That wasn't my point. It's all about supply and demand. Most physicians care about where they live for the rest of their careers. Money isn't important when you're unhappy where you are.

I don't know where you have lived in the US. However, you can definitely get a decent education in a city of 150K. I have lived most of my life in a town with 40K people. There are two private school nearby and the public schools are okay. I knew one guy who went to West Point and another who went to Harvard and both were in public school.

It's true that going to a good school helps, but motivation on the student's part is more important. It's not like you have to go to a school in LA just to get into an elite college.

 

[oOKawaiiOo]

Selectivity refers to qualifications of the applicants. Competitiveness refers to the number of applicants per available seats
On an applicant to seat ratio, DO programs are more competitive than MD

View attachment 192808

What?!

 

[tom10]

$300k loan can be paid off in 2 or three years if there was no interest. However, every year you're probably going to have to pay $24k in interest per year STARTING from residency. That $300k loan can easily become $400k-$420k you owe by the time you come out of residency. After taking away your taxes and living extremely conservatively, you're going to have to pay it off in 5 years or a little longer.

Agreed. As a FM doc in the midwest, you'll probably top out at 190k if you work for a hospital. You can make more busy as hell in private practice, but we all know that takes YEARS to build up. Also, take 33% of that out because of taxes and it's going to take a little bit longer than you think Gandy, but its not like you were waaaaaay off or anything (no sarcasm).

 

[oOKawaiiOo]

@tom10 Do you know how much an ER physician (in the midwest) make? Just curious.

 

[mathnerd88]

I don't know where you have lived in the US. However, you can definitely get a decent education in a city of 150K. I have lived most of my life in a town with 40K people. There are two private school nearby and the public schools are okay. I knew one guy who went to West Point and another who went to Harvard and both were in public school.

It's true that going to a good school helps, but motivation on the student's part is more important. It's not like you have to go to a school in LA just to get into an elite college school.

That's true. However, a school can also hinder kids too if they're not good schools. I have some friends where the school did not allow the gifted kids to excel or nurture their growth because it would "make the others look bad."

 

[IslandStyle808]

I applied both MD and DO, I would say MD is much harder to get into than DO. I got only two interviews at MD schools and did not get into either school. I got a lot more interviews at DO schools and got several offers of admission. DO schools are getting harder to get into which is true but still I think someone with a 27 or higher MCAT should be okay for most schools. MD schools have also become tougher to gain admission as well, but I would not say DO schools are as tough to get into than MD schools.

Also the pool of applicants is different at both types of schools, the most competitive applicants apply MD while DO schools have more variation in applicant academic stats.

I suggest you look at gonnif's post. What I meant by competitive was that purely in terms of how many people apply and how many get accepted. I definitely agree with you that MD is hard to gain acceptance to than DO, but it doesn't change the fact that DO is slightly more competitive. It is all dependent on the pool of applicants (stat wise), how many are applying, and what the schools are looking for.

 

[IslandStyle808]

That's true. However, a school can also hinder kids too if they're not good schools. I have some friends where the school did not allow the gifted kids to excel or nurture their growth because it would "make the others look bad."

I definitely believe what you are saying. However, it is not like you have to be living in a population of 1 million to have good educational opportunities. You can still have a decent amount of them in cities of even 80K.

 

[mathnerd88]

I definitely believe what you are saying. However, it is not like you have to be living in a population of 1 million to have a good educational opportunities. You can still have a decent amount of them in cities of even 80K.

Oh true. I'm talking about suburbs of those major cities in the northeast. My town's population only has 14k residents and our public school is excellent.

In PA, I know of some towns where they hinder students who excel.

I'm not familiar with the Midwest, but I'm sure those suburbs with good education are also already all filled with physicians.

 

[Gandyy]

$300k loan can be paid off in 2 or three years if there was no interest. However, every year you're probably going to have to pay $24k in interest per year STARTING from residency. That $300k loan can easily become $400k-$420k you owe by the time you come out of residency. After taking away your taxes and living extremely conservatively, you're going to have to pay it off in 5 years or a little longer.

You also have to probably think about a house and a car by then, because you're in your early 30's if you're not taking any gap years. If you take gap years, then you would be nearing your mid 30's by the time you graduate residency. Oh yeah, and kids too. Did I mention having a family is also really expensive?

I'm not saying it is not financially feasible...just that it isn't going to be a good and lavish lifestyle as most people think. Not until you are at least 40 or older.

Be that as it may, people still make the loan thing sound a lot worse than it really is. I agree with what you have said though.

I believe that the only time a loan is truly brutal is when you were admitted to medical school and didnt make it for whatever reason.

 

[mathnerd88]

Be that as it may, people still make the loan thing sound a lot worse than it really is. I agree with what you have said though.

Well, some people even have to add on their college loans to that...so that's something else to consider. I know someone who owes over $500k in loans just from college and graduate school.

 

[TheBoneDoctah]

Well, some people even have to add on their college loans to that...so that's something else to consider. I know someone who owes over $500k in loans just from college and graduate school.

Ouch. Hopefully I won't owe more than 180k when I graduate school. Hopefully.

 

[tom10]

@tom10 Do you know how much an ER physician (in the midwest) make? Just curious.

$400k-450k 12 12 hour shifts a month, 400 a bit on the low side. Locums can get $500k working 12 12s. Bigger cities like Indianapolis or Columbus are bound to be lower, but I don't have specific numbers. My buddy's friend claims he's getting $550k in KC for 12 12s, but if it smells like **** and looks like ****, well....

 

[Gandyy]

$400k-450k 12 12 hour shifts a month, 400 a bit on the low side. Locums can get $500k working 12 12s. Bigger cities like Indianapolis or Columbus are bound to be lower, but I don't have specific numbers. My buddy's friend claims he's getting $550k in KC for 12 12s, but if it smells like **** and looks like ****, well....

Yea but I imagine some ER docs thrive on the action that an ER can provide. So if you like it, and are doing 12 12's a month for 400k.... then.... I think you are good.

 

[tom10]

Yea but I imagine some ER docs thrive on the action that an ER can provide. So if you like it, and are doing 12 12's a month for 400k.... then.... I think you are good.

.

Can't argue with that. 400k ain't bad haha

 

[Mad Jack]

How would they become as competitive as MD schools when DO typically costs more money, the residency options pale in comparison, and the fact that its actually a tougher road considering OMM plus the extra exams? Obviously it can't and won't. Not to mention all those who need the "MD" after their names.

It has gotten more competitive the past few cycles, but this is it IMO - we're seeing DO just about maxed out on the competitiveness scale given the facts above and the combination of an uncertain future of healthcare and the very uncertain outcome of the merger. The merger actually has me very concerned about the future of DO's.

I'm betting it will continue to get more competitive. Despite increasing uncertainty, decreasing reimbursements, increasing regulations, and a more than doubling of enrollment, DO stats have continued to climb. We've got at least one school with an average MCAT in the 30s. Will it ever be as competitive as MD? No. Will it continue to get more competitive? Oh hell yes.

 

[oOKawaiiOo]

$400k-450k 12 12 hour shifts a month, 400 a bit on the low side. Locums can get $500k working 12 12s. Bigger cities like Indianapolis or Columbus are bound to be lower, but I don't have specific numbers. My buddy's friend claims he's getting $550k in KC for 12 12s, but if it smells like **** and looks like ****, well....

Why did I think it was only 250k? That is so much!

 

[Seth Joo]

I suggest you look at gonnif's post. What I meant by competitive was that purely in terms of how many people apply and how many get accepted. I definitely agree with you that MD is hard to gain acceptance to than DO, but it doesn't change the fact that DO is slightly more competitive. It is all dependent on the pool of applicants (stat wise), how many are applying, and what the schools are looking for.

You have a different pool of applicants at MD and at DO schools. MD schools usually have much higher GPAs and MCATs while those for DO schools tend to have stats that are not as strong as those who applied MD. So in this way, the fact that stats are generally lower for DO schools compared to MD schools, its somewhat easier to get into a DO program in comparison to an MD one.

 

[tom10]

Why did I think it was only 250k? That is so much!

Don't forget taxes, buddy. At that level, you're paying 40% federal tax. Your thought is not too far off for California though.

 

[Gandyy]

Don't forget taxes, buddy. At that level, you're paying 40% federal tax.

^^^

After the government loots you of all of your income you are probably left with around 250k or so.

 

[IslandStyle808]

You have a different pool of applicants at MD and at DO schools. MD schools usually have much higher GPAs and MCATs while those for DO schools tend to have stats that are not as strong as those who applied MD. So in this way, the fact that stats are generally lower for DO schools compared to MD schools, its somewhat easier to get into a DO program in comparison to an MD one.

In my first post.

The thing is.... DO schools are as competitive are MD schools (2.5 applicants to 1 seat). The difference is the pool of applicants applying to DO schools (lower stats as a whole). With the recession lifting, increasing tuition, and mid-level pathways becoming more prevalent, there will be a point where medical school won't be worth it from a financial perspective.

There is a difference between more competitive and harder to get into. DO schools are slightly more competitive because of the number of applicants to the number of seats. MD schools are harder to get into because it takes higher stats to get into one (the selectivity that gonnif is referring to above). This is what I meant.

 

[nRomaleos]

Selectivity refers to qualifications of the applicants. Competitiveness refers to the number of applicants per available seats. The difficulty for an individual to achieve GPA/MCAT for MD acceptance is what most applicants mean when they say "harder" for a student to get accepted to MD school. That is selectivity; it is not competitiveness

On a selectivity basis (GPA/MCAT) yes, MD have higher GPA/MCAT as a pool of applicants. Thus MD is more selective
On a Applicant to Seat Ratio, the DO pool has more applicants per available seat. Thus DO is more competitive

41% of MD applicants matriculate in the cycle that they apply with 2.43 applicants per seat (roughly 2 in 5 who apply start MD school)
36% of DO applicants matriculate in the cycle that they apply with 2.78 applicants per seat (roughly 1 in 3 who apply start DO school)

see my previous post for numbers
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/do-seems-way-more-competitive.1141763/#post-16560821

lols. this reminds me of epi professor spending an hour helping people understand "reliability vs. validity" or "specificity vs. sensitivity".

 

[Bea5T]

How would they become as competitive as MD schools when DO typically costs more money, the residency options pale in comparison, and the fact that its actually a tougher road considering OMM plus the extra exams? Obviously it can't and won't. Not to mention all those who need the "MD" after their names.

It has gotten more competitive the past few cycles, but this is it IMO - we're seeing DO just about maxed out on the competitiveness scale given the facts above and the combination of an uncertain future of healthcare and the very uncertain outcome of the merger. The merger actually has me very concerned about the future of DO's.

More applicants = more competitive. It's doesn't get more complicated then that.

 

[Bea5T]

Let's put it this way. Consultants straight out of college already make at least $80k a year, not even with signing bonuses. By the time doctors are out of residency, consultants already have made $640k ahead of you AND don't have loans. (That's also assuming their pay never increases, but it does per year.) Adding your student loans and interest, you are about almost a million dollars behind.

And athletes make millions once they're drafted to a professional sports team. Point is, don't compare the baseline physician to the top of the heap, those types of jobs aren't easy to land and you definitely work your ass off to make that paycheck. These types of jobs are few and far between and only landed by the brightest in their respective fields.

 

[mathnerd88]

And athletes make millions once they're drafted to a professional sports team. Point is, don't compare the baseline physician to the top of the heap, those types of jobs aren't easy to land and you definitely work your ass off to make that paycheck. These types of jobs are few and far between and only landed by the brightest in their respective fields.

Consultants make way more than $80k. The average already make $89k a year.

If you don't want to compare that, then there are also plenty of jobs from industry that can make around $100k after getting a masters. Industry after graduation is probably around $50k-$60k a year.

My point being is that being a physician is not necessarily the best way to go if you care about money. It requires a lot of effort and testing and stress that it may not be worth it to those who just care about money.

Also, I'm comparing averages. The average DO physician makes around $160k a year.

 

[Bea5T]

Consultants make way more than $80k. The average already make $89k a year.

If you don't want to compare that, then there are also plenty of jobs from industry that can make around $100k after getting a masters. Industry after graduation is probably around $50k-$60k a year.

My point being is that being a physician is not necessarily the best way to go if you care about money. It requires a lot of effort and testing and stress that it may not be worth it to those who just care about money.

Also, I'm comparing averages. The average DO physician makes around $160k a year.

Gonna need a source for that number. hat's on the lower end of FM salaries, it's not like MD's make more for doing the same job.

 

[NonTrad16]

Consultants make way more than $80k. The average already make $89k a year.

If you don't want to compare that, then there are also plenty of jobs from industry that can make around $100k after getting a masters. Industry after graduation is probably around $50k-$60k a year.

My point being is that being a physician is not necessarily the best way to go if you care about money. It requires a lot of effort and testing and stress that it may not be worth it to those who just care about money.

Also, I'm comparing averages. The average DO physician makes around $160k a year.

I know two industry PhDs (Chem) making less than 100k after 5 years working. I know a bio MS grad who has his parents helping him pay rent in a high CoL city, making <45k after over 3 years. MSW make ~50k? I know a PhD with >20 years experience who makes 180k. Yes, you can make a lot of money out of undergrad. Yes, you can make money after a MS. But there are plenty of people with "good" degrees who are not earning that.

Generalizing to say "go get a ms and make 100k" is uselessly vague. That's not to say that earning over 100k is really going to make anyone happy, but to say that the average graduate of medical school with 200-300k in debt will have lifetime earnings near an average MS degree holder is misleading.

 

[TheBoneDoctah]

Gonna need a source for that number. hat's on the lower end of FM salaries, it's not like MD's make more for doing the same job.

Lol

MD and DO make the same salary. Let's just end this.

 

[mathnerd88]

Gonna need a source for that number. hat's on the lower end of FM salaries, it's not like MD's make more for doing the same job.

http://www.payscale.com/research/US/Degree=Doctor_ofa_Osteopathic_Medicine_(DO)/Salary

Also, I know a couple of DO's who told me what their ranges are.

If you go out into areas that are less desirable you get paid more. Around popular areas the pay is less. In NJ and PA, the average for DO's are only $150k.

 

[xBODOMx]

.

 

[TheBoneDoctah]

http://www.payscale.com/research/US/Degree=Doctor_ofa_Osteopathic_Medicine_(DO)/Salary

Also, I know a couple of DO's who told me what their ranges are.

If you go out into areas that are less desirable you get paid more. Around popular areas the pay is less. In NJ and PA, the average for DO's are only $150k.

Dude, D.O. and M.D. make the same amount of money. If you're a surgeon, you get paid for being a surgeon. Not for being an M.D. or D.O.

 

[mathnerd88]

Dude, D.O. and M.D. make the same amount of money. If you're a surgeon, you get paid for being a surgeon. Not for being an M.D. or D.O.

Wait. Where did I ever say DO and MD's aren't making the same amount of money? Maybe you should reread all my posts.

I never even mentioned MD at all...

Most DO's who practice don't end up in surgery. Most of them go into Family Practice and primary care.

 

[TheBoneDoctah]

Wait. Where did I ever say DO and MD's aren't making the same amount of money? Maybe you should reread all my posts.

I never even mentioned MD at all...

Most DO's who practice don't end up in surgery. Most of them go into Family Practice and primary care.

My bad. Thought that is what you were comparing. But yes, more D.O.'s go into primary care which obviously drives down the average. That doesn't mean a D.O. surgeon makes less than an M.D. surgeon though.

 

[mathnerd88]

My bad. Thought that is what you were comparing. But yes, more D.O.'s go into primary care which obviously drives down the average. That doesn't mean a D.O. surgeon makes less than an M.D. surgeon though.

Of course not. A surgeon is a surgeon. The only problem is that many good residency programs don't take DO's. DO's who do any specialty will make the same as MD's in the same specialty.