DO seems way more competitive

[Hustler101]

Well obviously. Tbh though, if I were in something like FM I'd rather make 200k/year and be able to spend 20-30 minutes with each patient than make 250k/year and spend less than 10 minutes with each patient. Not just for the patient's sake, but because I would enjoy my job much, much more, which is worth that 50k to me in the long run.



This is solid, only thing I'd say is to drop that resident pay from 59k to 49k. I don't know any residencies other than military ones with a base pay over 55k, and the ones over 50k are in fields that work you to the bone like ortho.

Most patients don't need nearly that much time. My doc is great and sees 6-7 patients per hour on average.

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[BorntobeDO?]

You're actually closer than I thought:
http://www.medscape.com/features/slideshow/compensation/2013/anesthesiology

If you look at the hours though, only 27% are working 40 hours or less and over 40% work more than 50 hours per week.

I have spent quite a bit of time looking at Anesthesia. I also work with them everyday. I think a normal anesthesiologist would expect to work 50+ hours in a hospital practice. The ones at my hospital do 76 days of 24 hour calls a year, plus their regular 500-1500ish days. I would even dare to say you can expect 60 hours if you want to be in the 500+ crowd. But its there for those who want it.

PS - TY for the props 35% was pretty close to my guess.

 

[kalat]

This is solid, only thing I'd say is to drop that resident pay from 59k to 49k. I don't know any residencies other than military ones with a base pay over 55k, and the ones over 50k are in fields that work you to the bone like ortho.

Yeah, I did this a few months ago, and I was thinking that as I was looking at it. I'm not sure why it's that high. I'd have to redo all the calculations to fix it unfortunately (which I didn't want to do). The good part is it does not affect the first two options which pay $0 during residency and therefore are only working off the post-residency salary.

 

[MightBeACylon439]

Good post. I agree that going into medicine you should plan to take 10 years to pay back the loans (unless primary care, then 20 with PAYE). It will be very hard to tell your spouse and family that they still have to live like paupers even tho your income after probably 9 years finally went up.

Look at other options such as the HPSP or FAP (military), or other things like practicing in less desirable area's for a little while that will pay off your loans. For my I chose to do HPSP, I figured I know the military...and I am ok with what it entails. I do not know 400k of loans...so I figured I'd go with the enemy that I know.

Ultimately its up to you, but there are options out there if you are willing to put up with a temporary inconvenience.

 

[BorntobeDO?]

Look at other options such as the HPSP or FAP (military), or other things like practicing in less desirable area's for a little while that will pay off your loans. For my I chose to do HPSP, I figured I know the military...and I am ok with what it entails. I do not know 400k of loans...so I figured I'd go with the enemy that I know.

Ultimately its up to you, but there are options out there if you are willing to put up with a temporary inconvenience.

I agree, I am actually picking the temporary (3-4 years) rural area practice plan over the military. The money is close (slight win for military). But at least a rural area in the US isn't a year long deployment to IRAQ away from my family.

 

[MightBeACylon439]

I agree, I am actually picking the temporary (3-4 years) rural area practice plan over the military. The money is close. But at least a rural area in the US isn't a year long deployment to IRAQ away from my family.

Very true, again you have to find what is right for you.

 

[Stagg737]

The problem with this is that private practices vary. If you structure your practice towards maximum revenue you'll get a far different outcome than if you just do the typical bread and butter stuff in your field.
It's not all about hours but also about efficiency. More patients per time = more revenue. But you need the skills to maintain a standard of care.

Also 400k-500k is nottt "very rare." There are physicians making over a million a year... spine surgeons averaged at 1 mil/year a few years ago. I would classify making well over 1 mil a year as being "very rare." There are also docs making 3-20 million.

Spine surgeons did not average 1 mil/year, I know because I worked for a group of about 30 of them and the guys that were purely clinical didn't touch 7 figures. 'Very rare' may have had too much emphasis, but it is certainly not common when taking all 820,000 physicians in the U.S. into account. For the most part, those that are making 7 figures are not just doing clinical work. They are either in administration, get ridiculous grants from research, own their own practice (and make money off other docs), or work with pharma or with corporations as consultants. The only person I've ever heard of making 7 figures purely off clinical work did a ridiculous amount of IME's for insurance companies (which pay about $1,000 for a 10-15 minute consult). The guys making over a million are the zebras.

Most patients don't need nearly that much time. My doc is great and sees 6-7 patients per hour on average.

For some patients you don't, for some you do. I'd rather be able to not feel rushed and do a thorough job with each patient. It just makes it that much more enjoyable for me. Besides, if you use a direct model or concierge medicine you can make 300k+ as an FM and spend 20-30 minutes with each patient anyway.

 

[Hustler101]

Spine surgeons did not average 1 mil/year, I know because I worked for a group of about 30 of them and the guys that were purely clinical didn't touch 7 figures. 'Very rare' may have had too much emphasis, but it is certainly not common when taking all 820,000 physicians in the U.S. into account. For the most part, those that are making 7 figures are not just doing clinical work. They are either in administration, get ridiculous grants from research, own their own practice (and make money off other docs), or work with pharma or with corporations as consultants. The only person I've ever heard of making 7 figures purely off clinical work did a ridiculous amount of IME's for insurance companies (which pay about $1,000 for a 10-15 minute consult). The guys making over a million are the zebras.



For some patients you don't, for some you do. I'd rather be able to not feel rushed and do a thorough job with each patient. It just makes it that much more enjoyable for me. Besides, if you use a direct model or concierge medicine you can make 300k+ as an FM and spend 20-30 minutes with each patient anyway.

That one was based off of some SDN posts. But nonetheless they made quite a bit.
But here's the thing... if one's goal with their MD/DO is $$$ why not do the stuff that brings in the highest profit? Hence my point about averages not being valid in this context.

Also what is concierge medicine?

 

[BorntobeDO?]

That one was based off of some SDN posts. But nonetheless they made quite a bit.
But here's the thing... if one's goal with their MD/DO is $$$ why not do the stuff that brings in the highest profit? Hence my point about averages not being valid in this context.

Also what is concierge medicine?

Two basic models IMO- The hybrid one where you take the insurance but also charge a monthly fee to increase your availability to patients by reducing total patient volume (while keeping your bottom line decent) OR

A Cash-only practice where you charge a monthly fee based on the person health and the patient gets either unlimited or a lot of visits a year (and you don't accept insurance). Its a direct care model that cuts out insurance. Not for the faint of heart, and it takes time to build up a good practice. If you want to do it on your own you will almost certainly have to start out taking all insurances for a couple years, and then transition to a direct care model once you have a good patient base built up.

 

[Desired Member]

Ah, funny story. I realized I had this typo, undeserved instead of undeserved. So they redelivered it per my request so I could fix it and then I had to resubmit it knowing fully well

that I lose my spot in the queue. Paranoid and Neurotic. I know.

This reminds me of when I went to my university's writing center for help with my secondaries, and the guy that was supposed to be helping me changed "underserved" to "undeserved." Still cracks me up

 

[AlteredScale]

No, we'll be fine. @AlteredScale, go slap some sense to your new bf.

To my new bf? What? I don't know where you getting at but it's coming across quite crass.


Let's keep this thread on topic guys.

 

[67552931811]

I am just glad I still feel like I have a decent chance at mid range specialties. It would suck to be like the Caribbean and have basically five choices (Bad IM program, FM, Peds, Path, OBGYN).

Actually, if you go carib, and are a solid applicant, plenty of top-tier and mid-tier IM programs are available to you. For whatever reason, there are a lot of top-tier IM programs that take IMGs/FMGs but don't consider DOs.

 

[IslandStyle808]

wha... ?

130k is a ridiculously high income for a median... most people make 30-50k tops.

You want to try anecdotes? I know plenty of docs who are very happy with the money. Know of ones making in the 400-500 range without working insane hours. There are also plenty making well over 500.

Medicine is by far the best field to go into for money. No other fields come even close to it.

I agreed with a lot of your points until this statement. There are definitely occupations out there that rival medicine. For example, dentistry.

http://www.ada.org/~/media/ADA/Science and Research/HPI/Files/10_sdpi.ashx

Look at Table 19 (pg. 31) and full time salaries for a solo practitioner general and specialists. The general practitioners are making $235K for an average 40 hours a week. The specialists are making $400K with an average of 40 hours a week.

The salaries of most physicians are based on a 60-70 hour schedule, with 250K being at the lower end average for physician salaries. Dentist salaries rival and at times surpass physician salaries hour-per-hour (depending on what fields you are comparing).

 

[Stagg737]

That one was based off of some SDN posts. But nonetheless they made quite a bit.
But here's the thing... if one's goal with their MD/DO is $$$ why not do the stuff that brings in the highest profit? Hence my point about averages not being valid in this context.

Also what is concierge medicine?

Handsome Rob is basically right and highlighted some of the problems with it. However, in a true concierge model you receive money directly from the patient out of pocket and insurance is not involved at all. Traditionally it worked somewhat like the pay corporate lawyers receive, where you are paid monthly/yearly to be on retainer for a couple of clients and then you charge them for services when they need to be rendered. You would have few clients and typically much more free time since you wouldn't technically have any set hours, but would instead be 'on call' 24/7/365.

More recently, it's been making a resurgence and people have been using 'direct care' synonymously with concierge med. Direct care is more like what Rob was describing where you have thousands of clients who pay a monthly fee to have access to medical care whenever they need. In this model patients don't typically pay for treatment from you as they've already paid through their monthly fees. When it's done properly, a doc will typically be able to have appointments that last 30-45 minutes/patient and the physician will make well more than the average PCP while the patient pays much less than they would for insurance. The biggest problems are that it's not a feasible model for most fields other than FM or psych because the cost of lab tests and treatment gets expensive, and as Handsome Rob said it takes time to build up your patient base.

There are quite a few groups out there that are pulling this model off very nicely though. Here's a link to AtlasMD which uses the direct care model. You can get an idea of what they cover and how much it costs to use it as a patient. We had one of the guys from the Wichita branch come in and speak to one of our clubs about it, and he said the guys in his practice average 600-800 patients per doc (most PCPs have around 2,000) none of them were making less than 300k. If you're looking at going into FM it's definitely a model worth considering, especially if you can jump into a group that already has an established patient population.

http://atlas.md/wichita/faq/

 

[kenjixshadow]

@AlteredScale "bf" wasn't in boyfriend, but as boy friend. Back to topic, he is quite worried of DO not getting competitive residencies. I don't think that is true and I meant you should speak to your classmate about it since I know you're presumed to aim for something competitive. Sorry about the earlier post. It came out quite poorly. Also after page 2, this thread is way off topic -- starting from there, ppl got off to money rather than how competitive of getting into DO schools.

 

[Gandyy]

In an effort to steer the thread back to its original purpose, what do you guys think the 2015 entering class DO MCAT and GPA averages are going to be?

Has it gotten to the point where we are looking at low tier MD level (3.7/28-29) across the board for the top 2/3rds of DO schools?

 

[MightBeACylon439]

In an effort to steer the thread back to its original purpose, what do you guys think the 2015 entering class DO MCAT and GPA averages are going to be?

Has it gotten to the point where we are looking at low tier MD level (3.7/28-29) across the board for the top 2/3rds of DO schools?

Wouldn't be surprised, the stats necessary seem only to go up.

People are so worried about what the residency merger will mean...it really is all speculation at this point but from those more in the know in the D.O. World say it will mean a tighter squeeze to IMG/FMG, placing more emphasis on an education from a US medical school.

To tie this in to the actual subject, it means that the application pool for US medical schools will grow as people become wise to the fact that they simply have so little chance of ANY residency if they go Caribbean. With an increased applicant pool will come increased competition, and they only direction stats to get you in will have to go is up.

 

[Gandyy]

Wouldn't be surprised, the stats necessary seem only to go up.

People are so worried about what the residency merger will mean...it really is all speculation at this point but from those more in the know in the D.O. World say it will mean a tighter squeeze to IMG/FMG, placing more emphasis on an education from a US medical school.

To tie this in to the actual subject, it means that the application pool for US medical schools will grow as people become wise to the fact that they simply have so little chance of ANY residency if they go Caribbean. With an increased applicant pool will come increased competition, and they only direction stats to get you in will have to go is up.

Yea, we will have to see. Honestly, it would be very frustrating to see DO graduates come to any harm as far residency is concerned with this merger. If anyone should get the short end of the the stick its Caribbean grads even more so than FMG's IMHO. US Grads first.

 

[Dreamstoo]

I'm always surprised meeting pre med/pre dental students who told me they were told as long as they had a 3.0+ GPA they could get into a DO school. I think some people underestimate it. There are DO schools out there with 3.5-3.6 averages.

 

[Hustler101]

I agreed with a lot of your points until this statement. There are definitely occupations out there that rival medicine. For example, dentistry.

http://www.ada.org/~/media/ADA/Science and Research/HPI/Files/10_sdpi.ashx

Look at Table 19 (pg. 31) and full time salaries for a solo practitioner general and specialists. The general practitioners are making $235K for an average 40 hours a week. The specialists are making $400K with an average of 40 hours a week.

The salaries of most physicians are based on a 60-70 hour schedule, with 250K being at the lower end average for physician salaries. Dentist salaries rival and at times surpass physician salaries hour-per-hour (depending on what fields you are comparing).

Yes but dentistry's job market is going a poor direction. It'll be veryy difficult to find work in a semi-decent area in the future let alone a desirable one. Also dentistry really is not a versatile enough field to be able to tolerate it for money... If you hate the mouth and teeth you'll be beyond miserable. At least medicine has a lot of fields and this means you have some options to play with... even in primary care you can shape your practice in different ways.
Medicine also has a higher income ceiling and allows you to make more by focusing on maximum revenue.

 

[Stagg737]

I'm always surprised meeting pre med/pre dental students who told me they were told as long as they had a 3.0+ GPA they could get into a DO school. I think some people underestimate it. There are DO schools out there with 3.5-3.6 averages.

I'd go so far as to say that having a 3.5, or at the very least 3.4, average has become typical of DO schools minus a few outliers. As more people keep applying, it means MD schools can be more selective about who they accept. That means higher GPAs for both MD and DO schools should the institutions choose to set their standards as such.

 

[Dreamstoo]

I'd go so far as to say that having a 3.5, or at the very least 3.4, average has become typical of DO schools minus a few outliers. As more people keep applying, it means MD schools can be more selective about who they accept. That means higher GPAs for both MD and DO schools should the institutions choose to set their standards as such.

I would say 3.3+. However I have met ORM who had successful cycles with 3.1/26 but unique ECs like a student athlete.

 

[ChrisMack390]

Well obviously. Tbh though, if I were in something like FM I'd rather make 200k/year and be able to spend 20-30 minutes with each patient than make 250k/year and spend less than 10 minutes with each patient. Not just for the patient's sake, but because I would enjoy my job much, much more, which is worth that 50k to me in the long run.



This is solid, only thing I'd say is to drop that resident pay from 59k to 49k. I don't know any residencies other than military ones with a base pay over 55k, and the ones over 50k are in fields that work you to the bone like ortho.

grooooooan

 

[Stagg737]

Average GPA for incoming DO students was a 3.41 in 2014. So I guess 'most' schools would be above a 3.3, but there are also a few schools that either need to significantly improve or potentially get shut down. Just my opinion though.Straight from AACOMAS:

http://www.aacom.org/docs/default-source/data-and-trends/2011-14-AProfRpt.pdf?sfvrsn=18

grooooooan

Hahaha, not going to lie, I didn't even catch that pun myself when I was writing that...

 

[IslandStyle808]

Yes but dentistry's job market is going a poor direction. It'll be veryy difficult to find work in a semi-decent area in the future let alone a desirable one. Also dentistry really is not a versatile enough field to be able to tolerate it for money... If you hate the mouth and teeth you'll be beyond miserable. At least medicine has a lot of fields and this means you have some options to play with... even in primary care you can shape your practice in different ways.
Medicine also has a higher income ceiling and allows you to make more by focusing on maximum revenue.

As long as there is no rapid expansion of dentistry schools, then one should be able to find work in a semi-decent area in the future (maybe not a metropolis, but a least decent size city). They don't have mid-level encroachment that the medical field has and so salary and work opportunities won't suffer as much.

Plus I wouldn't be surprised if there are people who actually like dentistry, just like there are people who go into podiatry, pharmacy, or optometry because they like it. Medicine is one of the few fields where there is a such large variety of specialties to choose from. Point of my statement is to show that there are fields that rival medicine in income.

I am not sure why you think medicine allows you to focus on maximizing revenue. I think this is far more true for dentistry than it is medicine. There are physicians who care more about treating people than making profit. My dad (a physician), would see 10% of patients that had no insurance and couldn't pay (couldn't handle more than this). Even in the hospital setting, there will be people with no insurance and cannot pay that you have to treat. Only in a few areas of medicine can one truly focus on maximizing profits.

 

[mathnerd88]

I should encourage everyone to please read this article. Let me know what you think!

https://benbrownmd.wordpress.com/

"Yes, taking care of patients is rewarding. However, when physicians are unfairly reimbursed for their services they feel exploited. This feeling of exploitation or being taken advantage of is what bothers physicians the most. Physicians spend 40,000 hours training after high school and take out over a quarter million dollars in loans all so that when they are done they can work 60 hours per week, be paid less than they were expected, give about 40% of their income to the government in taxes and pay 25% of their net income to their student loan lender. They feel exploited because after all that they have sacrificed they are enslaved to the highly regulated healthcare industry, which unfairly pays them."

"The median gross income among internal medicine physicians is $205,441.7 The median net income for an internist who is married with two children living in California is then $140,939. Internal medicine is a three-year residency, so throughout residency they will earn a total net income of about $120,000 and spend about 35,000 hours training after high school. The total cost of training including interest, forbeared for three years and paid off over 20 years as explained above is $687,260. One study reported that the average hours worked per week by practicing Internal Medicine physicians was 57 hours per week.8 Another study reported the mean to be 55.5 hours per week.9 We will use 56 hours per week and assume they work 48 weeks per year. If they finish residency at 29 years old and retire at 65 years old they will work for 36 years at that median income.

[(140,939 x 36) + (120,000) – (687,260)] / [(56 x 48 x 36) + (34,000)] = $34.46

The adjusted net hourly wage for an internal medicine physician is then $34.46"

 

[kenjixshadow]

That article is so old, you can tell by Radiology was still competitive back then.

TL;DR: Internal Medicine doc makes $34.46 an hour throughout the lifetime, which is grossly underpaid compare to other professions. Thank you @mathnerd88 for such an insightful article. I'm sure everyone here would've learned something since we didn't know about this.

 

[mathnerd88]

That article is so old, you can tell by Radiology was still competitive back then.

TL;DR: Internal Medicine doc makes $34.46 an hour throughout the lifetime, which is grossly underpaid compare to other professions. Thank you @mathnerd88 for such an insightful article. I'm sure everyone here would've learned something since we didn't know about this.

So you're saying don't go into IM when you graduate from DO school? Don't most DO's go into FM?

 

[kenjixshadow]

So you're saying don't go into IM when you graduate from DO school? Don't most DO's go into FM?

No, it looks about 1:1 ratio in 2015 match list. IM counts as primary care until apply for fellowships to further sub-specialize.

 

[BorntobeDO?]

I should encourage everyone to please read this article. Let me know what you think!

https://benbrownmd.wordpress.com/

"Yes, taking care of patients is rewarding. However, when physicians are unfairly reimbursed for their services they feel exploited. This feeling of exploitation or being taken advantage of is what bothers physicians the most. Physicians spend 40,000 hours training after high school and take out over a quarter million dollars in loans all so that when they are done they can work 60 hours per week, be paid less than they were expected, give about 40% of their income to the government in taxes and pay 25% of their net income to their student loan lender. They feel exploited because after all that they have sacrificed they are enslaved to the highly regulated healthcare industry, which unfairly pays them."

"The median gross income among internal medicine physicians is $205,441.7 The median net income for an internist who is married with two children living in California is then $140,939. Internal medicine is a three-year residency, so throughout residency they will earn a total net income of about $120,000 and spend about 35,000 hours training after high school. The total cost of training including interest, forbeared for three years and paid off over 20 years as explained above is $687,260. One study reported that the average hours worked per week by practicing Internal Medicine physicians was 57 hours per week.8 Another study reported the mean to be 55.5 hours per week.9 We will use 56 hours per week and assume they work 48 weeks per year. If they finish residency at 29 years old and retire at 65 years old they will work for 36 years at that median income.

[(140,939 x 36) + (120,000) – (687,260)] / [(56 x 48 x 36) + (34,000)] = $34.46

The adjusted net hourly wage for an internal medicine physician is then $34.46"

You realize that you are including 34000 hours of schooling time/residency. I dont know who in the world thinks that education should count as income years or that you spend over 3000 hours a year doing stuff in school including undergrad. Ridiculous.

Just flat on its face ridiculous. I am done here.

 

[JimmyB123]

I applied both MD and DO, I would say MD is much harder to get into than DO. I got only two interviews at MD schools and did not get into either school. I got a lot more interviews at DO schools and got several offers of admission. DO schools are getting harder to get into which is true but still I think someone with a 27 or higher MCAT should be okay for most schools. MD schools have also become tougher to gain admission as well, but I would not say DO schools are as tough to get into than MD schools.

Also the pool of applicants is different at both types of schools, the most competitive applicants apply MD while DO schools have more variation in applicant academic stats.

MD admissions and DO admissions are worlds apart. Getting into an MD school is considerably harder I agree.

 

[kenjixshadow]

MD admissions and DO admissions are worlds apart. Getting into an MD school is considerably harder I agree.

That's why they have more perks than us -- we have OMM and take both USMLE & COMLEX while they are given more opportunities to do research.

Please save me from the "but we don't technically need to take the USMLE." Sure, but with the merge, and if you apply to ACGME programs, you want PDs to compare apple to apple.

 

[user3]

I have spent quite a bit of time looking at Anesthesia. I also work with them everyday. I think a normal anesthesiologist would expect to work 50+ hours in a hospital practice. The ones at my hospital do 76 days of 24 hour calls a year, plus their regular 500-1500ish days. I would even dare to say you can expect 60 hours if you want to be in the 500+ crowd. But its there for those who want it.

PS - TY for the props 35% was pretty close to my guess.

have you read BladeMDA's posts about the future of anesthesia?

 

[67552931811]

 

[67552931811]

Nvm

 

[zylstrajs]

Yea, we will have to see. Honestly, it would be very frustrating to see DO graduates come to any harm as far residency is concerned with this merger. If anyone should get the short end of the the stick its Caribbean grads even more so than FMG's IMHO. US Grads first.

ACGME wanted a unified GME system and AOA and AACOM faced the prospect of (if not accepting this) a unified MD GME system being formed through association with the Caribbean schools. (~5000 grads annually).

The merger is positive for US graduates, MD and DO alike. I don't think anyone should get the short end of any stick, but if you need to characterize which group doesn't benefit from US DO/MD unified GME, its the Caribbean grads.

 

[AlbinoHawk DO]

ACGME wanted a unified GME system and AOA and AACOM faced the prospect of (if not accepting this) a unified MD GME system being formed through association with the Caribbean schools. (~5000 grads annually).

The merger is positive for US graduates, MD and DO alike. I don't think anyone should get the short end of any stick, but if you need to characterize which group doesn't benefit from US DO/MD unified GME, its the Caribbean grads.

That's not at all that happened, and there never was a GME association with the Caribbean. Where do these kinds of rumors even start?

It was the government that forced both MD and DO into a unified system because they didn't want to deal with having 2.

 

[BorntobeDO?]

have you read BladeMDA's posts about the future of anesthesia?

Not sure, I have read all of the stickies posts so if he was there I saw it. But more importantly I work in surgical services with CRNA's and Anesthesiologist. The group I work with is running the dreaded 1:4 anesthesia to CRNA ratio and all physcians are partners in a physician owned group. Like I said earlier they do 76 days of 24 hour call (1 full weekend a month, plus 1 day of 24 call during each week). They have also incleased their focus on regional blocks in the last couple years for pain control post op for total joints. This is where Anesthesia is at/going. Just like the dentist you will be forced into some sort of big group if you want to practice in a desirable location where the only real choice is physician owned or not. I plan to fellowship if I go down this path for the ability to work outside the hospital/OR.

 

[Hustler101]

I should encourage everyone to please read this article. Let me know what you think!

https://benbrownmd.wordpress.com/

"Yes, taking care of patients is rewarding. However, when physicians are unfairly reimbursed for their services they feel exploited. This feeling of exploitation or being taken advantage of is what bothers physicians the most. Physicians spend 40,000 hours training after high school and take out over a quarter million dollars in loans all so that when they are done they can work 60 hours per week, be paid less than they were expected, give about 40% of their income to the government in taxes and pay 25% of their net income to their student loan lender. They feel exploited because after all that they have sacrificed they are enslaved to the highly regulated healthcare industry, which unfairly pays them."

"The median gross income among internal medicine physicians is $205,441.7 The median net income for an internist who is married with two children living in California is then $140,939. Internal medicine is a three-year residency, so throughout residency they will earn a total net income of about $120,000 and spend about 35,000 hours training after high school. The total cost of training including interest, forbeared for three years and paid off over 20 years as explained above is $687,260. One study reported that the average hours worked per week by practicing Internal Medicine physicians was 57 hours per week.8 Another study reported the mean to be 55.5 hours per week.9 We will use 56 hours per week and assume they work 48 weeks per year. If they finish residency at 29 years old and retire at 65 years old they will work for 36 years at that median income.

[(140,939 x 36) + (120,000) – (687,260)] / [(56 x 48 x 36) + (34,000)] = $34.46

The adjusted net hourly wage for an internal medicine physician is then $34.46"

Those are BS calculations that disregard the variables I listed. You cannot generalize physicians into one basket when discussing income...

 

[allantois]

I should encourage everyone to please read this article. Let me know what you think!

https://benbrownmd.wordpress.com/

"Yes, taking care of patients is rewarding. However, when physicians are unfairly reimbursed for their services they feel exploited. This feeling of exploitation or being taken advantage of is what bothers physicians the most. Physicians spend 40,000 hours training after high school and take out over a quarter million dollars in loans all so that when they are done they can work 60 hours per week, be paid less than they were expected, give about 40% of their income to the government in taxes and pay 25% of their net income to their student loan lender. They feel exploited because after all that they have sacrificed they are enslaved to the highly regulated healthcare industry, which unfairly pays them."

"The median gross income among internal medicine physicians is $205,441.7 The median net income for an internist who is married with two children living in California is then $140,939. Internal medicine is a three-year residency, so throughout residency they will earn a total net income of about $120,000 and spend about 35,000 hours training after high school. The total cost of training including interest, forbeared for three years and paid off over 20 years as explained above is $687,260. One study reported that the average hours worked per week by practicing Internal Medicine physicians was 57 hours per week.8 Another study reported the mean to be 55.5 hours per week.9 We will use 56 hours per week and assume they work 48 weeks per year. If they finish residency at 29 years old and retire at 65 years old they will work for 36 years at that median income.

[(140,939 x 36) + (120,000) – (687,260)] / [(56 x 48 x 36) + (34,000)] = $34.46

The adjusted net hourly wage for an internal medicine physician is then $34.46"

They should repeat the calculation for PhD recipients and see what comes out