Do skull bones move poll

[homeboy]

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But when somebody that is a student of a profession dismisses the main tenet of said profession as bullsh-t maybe that person has landed him/herself in the wrong field.

But herein lies the problem: the "tenet" of our profession is not osteopathic manipulation; the "tenet" of osteopathic medicine is the same as the tenet MDs subscribe to: patient care, and you don't achieve patient care through manipulation alone.

If you're lamenting the fact that DO students are not as supportive of OMM as practitioners such as yourself, you're in a nostalgic dream world. Medical school application has become a grueling process, and a large percentage of students see the end goal of being a doctor achieved regardless of the route. Being a practicing DO as you said you are, I'm surprised you have not faced this realization already, unless you practice in one of the few DO enclaves in the country (Ohio, MI, Iowa...)

The fact I'm not a practicing physician doesn't mean I can't recognize a pile of bullcrap when I see it.

If the validity of a profession was solely determined by its' practictioners, chiropractic schools would open up at universities.

 

[HVLA]

I understand where you are coming from. No matter where you come from philosophically I feel that any DO should understand that there is (at the minimum) some benefit from OMT for certain conditions.

If the validity of a profession was solely determined by its' practictioners, chiropractic schools would open up at universities.

I totally agree. Unfortunately we live in a world where politics and the bottom line rule most of our academic processes. Florida State University was all set to open the first public chiropractic college this year until the politics got nasty. The word is that Arizona State is next and Texas Tech and Texas A&M are looking to acquire Parker College and Texas Chiro College (respectively) within the next few years. I suppose it is only a matter of time?

 

[homeboy]

I understand where you are coming from. No matter where you come from philosophically I feel that any DO should understand that there is (at the minimum) some benefit from OMT for certain conditions.



I totally agree. Unfortunately we live in a world where politics and the bottom line rule most of our academic processes. Florida State University was all set to open the first public chiropractic college this year until the politics got nasty. The word is that Arizona State is next and Texas Tech and Texas A&M are looking to acquire Parker College and Texas Chiro College (respectively) within the next few years. I suppose it is only a matter of time?

I entirely agree, and the politics are just as bad in our profession...look at all the schools opening up. We may be opening up schools and "training" students at a faster rate than the allopaths, but at what cost to the profession?...

And I don't doubt that most DOs / DO students recognize some level of benefit of OMT, but not at the same level as the AOA professes.

 

[FutureNavyDOc]

Plain and simple, the skull bones don't move in an adult. Claiming that they do is only going to hurt our profession and our credibility.

I offer this simple analogy:
Would you rather buy a used car from a guy who claims it can fly or one who knows it can't?


By the way, apparently some people at DMU are upset about comments made on here regarding OMM, the lack of research related to it and things of that nature and have been whining to administration like 1st graders.

Grow up. If you have a problem with something someone is saying on here, get a user name and dispute it, don't run to an administrator in hopes they can scare people back into line.

Heaven forbid someone question the holy grail that is OMM. If every aspect of OMM is proven to be false and ineffective, does that make DO's less qualified physicians? No, we still have the other 99.9% of our medical education that has actually been proven!


Now that I've posted this, I suppose I should just sit back and wait for my e-mail asking me to come meet with the Dean because I might have offended someone who has based their entire life's value on the "inherent motility of the CNS.

 

[OSUdoc08]

Plain and simple, the skull bones don't move in an adult. Claiming that they do is only going to hurt our profession and our credibility.

I offer this simple analogy:
Would you rather buy a used car from a guy who claims it can fly or one who knows it can't?


By the way, apparently some people at DMU are upset about comments made on here regarding OMM, the lack of research related to it and things of that nature and have been whining to administration like 1st graders.

Grow up. If you have a problem with something someone is saying on here, get a user name and dispute it, don't run to an administrator in hopes they can scare people back into line.

Heaven forbid someone question the holy grail that is OMM. If every aspect of OMM is proven to be false and ineffective, does that make DO's less qualified physicians? No, we still have the other 99.9% of our medical education that has actually been proven!


Now that I've posted this, I suppose I should just sit back and wait for my e-mail asking me to come meet with the Dean because I might have offended someone who has based their entire life's value on the "inherent motility of the CNS.

Trauma.

 

[FutureNavyDOc]

Trauma.

Yes and the femur can bend in half about it's long axis in trauma. Does that mean we should start claiming we can make it do so in a therapeutic situation?



You're grasping at straws, much like the others in the small number of people who refuse to realize Cranial Manipulation is as much a farce as claims of the earth being flat.

OSUdoc, you have proven once again your inability to have an intelligent debate on any topic without resorting to outlandish claims and ridiculous examples. Cranial has never been proven to have any benefit and it never will be. By allowing it to hang around as part of the curriculum, we are merely providing evidence for those who would say DO's aren't as intelligent or qualified as MD's.
See my previous analogy about car salesmen. Which one would you trust?

 

[OSUdoc08]

Yes and the femur can bend in half about it's long axis in trauma. Does that mean we should start claiming we can make it do so in a therapeutic situation?



You're grasping at straws, much like the others in the small number of people who refuse to realize Cranial Manipulation is as much a farce as claims of the earth being flat.

OSUdoc, you have proven once again your inability to have an intelligent debate on any topic without resorting to outlandish claims and ridiculous examples. Cranial has never been proven to have any benefit and it never will be. By allowing it to hang around as part of the curriculum, we are merely providing evidence for those who would say DO's aren't as intelligent or qualified as MD's.
See my previous analogy about car salesmen. Which one would you trust?

Actually, it has. Read the research. I'm sorry that it makes you so unhappy that you must attack other members of SDN.

 

[FutureNavyDOc]

Actually, it has. Read the research. I'm sorry that it makes you so unhappy that you must attack other members of SDN.

I've read the research. A study of 5 people does not prove anything. I can "prove" daily DRE's cure erectile dysfunction with a study of 5 people.

I want solid un-biased research with a decent sized study group. It hasn't been done. Want to know the secret why? Because those who support cranial are afraid of having their own research prove themselves wrong and make them look like fools and the overwhelming majority of DO's and physicians in general who don't believe in craniosacral therapy see no point in doing research to disprove something that is so blatantly misconceived.

I'm not attacking anyone, I'm merely stating facts about your inability to have a coherent fact based discussion on any topic. The simple fact that you defend OMM and Cranial time and time again yet you have no plans nor desire to use them show you for the hypocrite you are. If you want to be the best physician you can be and you believe OMM and Cranial are valid and efficacious treatments why wouldn't you plan to use them in practice?

 

[OSUdoc08]

I've read the research. A study of 5 people does not prove anything. I can "prove" daily DRE's cure erectile dysfunction with a study of 5 people.

I want solid un-biased research with a decent sized study group. It hasn't been done. Want to know the secret why? Because those who support cranial are afraid of having their own research prove themselves wrong and make them look like fools and the overwhelming majority of DO's and physicians in general who don't believe in craniosacral therapy see no point in doing research to disprove something that is so blatantly misconceived.

I'm not attacking anyone, I'm merely stating facts about your inability to have a coherent fact based discussion on any topic. The simple fact that you defend OMM and Cranial time and time again yet you have no plans nor desire to use them show you for the hypocrite you are. If you want to be the best physician you can be and you believe OMM and Cranial are valid and efficacious treatments why wouldn't you plan to use them in practice?

I'm not defending cranial. I'm defending the fact that you have such an antagonist view over something of which you know nothing.

 

[FutureNavyDOc]

I'm not defending cranial. I'm defending the fact that you have such an antagonist view over something of which you know nothing.

..of which I know nothing?

I attended every cranial lecture and lab and I got 100% of the cranial questions on the exam right.

I've tried cranial on friends and family and despite the OMM fellows telling me I have "perfect technique" all I've gotten for results are worse headaches than before I did anything and people annoyed at me.

As such, I know as much if not more about cranial than anyone on here who hasn't done extra coursework in Cranial outside of the normal DO curriculum.

 

[OSUdoc08]

..of which I know nothing?

I attended every cranial lecture and lab and I got 100% of the cranial questions on the exam right.

I've tried cranial on friends and family and despite the OMM fellows telling me I have "perfect technique" all I've gotten for results are worse headaches than before I did anything and people annoyed at me.

As such, I know as much if not more about cranial than anyone on here who hasn't done extra coursework in Cranial outside of the normal DO curriculum.

Why would you do cranial on people? That's silly.

 

[FutureNavyDOc]

Why would you do cranial on people? That's silly.

I agree, but I wanted to give it a full on chance to see if it was legit or not from personal experience.


Since we're in agreement it is silly, why does it continue to exist in the curriculum?

 

[OSUdoc08]

I agree, but I wanted to give it a full on chance to see if it was legit or not from personal experience.


Since we're in agreement it is silly, why does it continue to exist in the curriculum?

Because it works on kids. You can't deny that their skull bones DO move.

 

[FutureNavyDOc]

Because it works on kids. You can't deny that their skull bones DO move.

I sure can deny it. Their skull bones don't move.

There, I denied it.


Just because the sutures haven't fully fused doesn't mean they move! The growth plates of the long bones in children have not fully fused, that doesn't mean that they articulate!

It doesn't work on kids. I've tried it and it didn't work for me, and research has never proven any efficiacy on kids or any other age group for that matter.

 

[OSUdoc08]

I sure can deny it. Their skull bones don't move.

There, I denied it.


Just because the sutures haven't fully fused doesn't mean they move! The growth plates of the long bones in children have not fully fused, that doesn't mean that they articulate!

It doesn't work on kids. I've tried it and it didn't work for me, and research has never proven any efficiacy on kids or any other age group for that matter.

Thanks for the helpful response....

 

[FutureNavyDOc]

Thanks for the helpful response....

Thanks for once again avoiding the issue.


All I am saying is once and for all, prove to me that the skull bones move and I'll believe it. Prove to me that cranial has any efficacy (in a reasonable study, not 5 flippin people) and I'll believe it. No one has succesfully done either of those, therefore I don't believe Cranial or that the skull bones move in a rhythmic manner and I would hope that no educated person would. It boggles my mind that some do and hold that belief so strongly.

 

[OSUdoc08]

Thanks for once again avoiding the issue.


All I am saying is once and for all, prove to me that the skull bones move and I'll believe it. Prove to me that cranial has any efficacy (in a reasonable study, not 5 flippin people) and I'll believe it. No one has succesfully done either of those, therefore I don't believe Cranial or that the skull bones move in a rhythmic manner and I would hope that no educated person would. It boggles my mind that some do and hold that belief so strongly.

No thanks. I'm going into EM. Good luck to you.

 

[FutureNavyDOc]

No thanks. I'm going into EM. Good luck to you.

I know you're planning EM, and you also don't think you'll need any surgical skills in EM. Good luck to you as well.

 

[HVLA]

Why are there Sharpey's fibers in the sutures?

 

[Dr. Ram-Rod]

Why are there Sharpey's fibers in the sutures?

I'm baaacckkk (for one post, I've enjoyed reading the last few sound demolishings of cranial)-- Better question why don't you get arthritis in the skull? You can get it an any other joint in the body.

 

[FutureNavyDOc]

I'm baaacckkk (for one post, I've enjoyed reading the last few sound demolishings of cranial)-- Better question why don't you get arthritis in the skull? You can get it an any other joint in the body.

Good point.


What the heck are Sharpey fibers and what do the signify?

All I know is that they can exist in the teeth.

 

[HVLA]

Sharpey's fibers exist in every joint.

Why would you get arthritis in a suture? It's not like the move much.

 

[Dr. Ram-Rod]

Sharpey's fibers exist in every joint.

Why would you get arthritis in a suture? It's not like the move much.

Well, if they move and a joint exists-- why couldn't RF (rheumatoid factor) get in there? Shouldn't a good popultion of Rh. Arthritis suffers have evidence of change in the sutures (i.e. minor pannus/evidence of inflammation) and/or pain? If the movement is so small that it doesn't allow for a antibody to get in-- how could you feel the motion in the first place?

If any of the cranial supporters can give a logical explination to the above I'd like to hear it.

 

[FutureNavyDOc]

Sharpey's fibers exist in every joint.

Fair enough, but what are they? What is their nature/purpose?

Interestingly enough, according to numerous reliable internet sources, Sharpey's fibers also exist in the teeth.

Does this mean the teeth articulate as well?

Should we create a dental OMM course also?



Ram-rod has a good point! Antibodies are small enough to get into nearly every portion of the body, excluding of course the cornea and testicles among other locations, how could they not get into the skull joints if they move enough to be palpated?

Antibody heavy chains are in the 500 aa length range, assuming that they are 1000 amino acids in length total, I would challenge anyone to be able to palpate an antibody placed on a flat surface. If you claim you can palpate the cranial bones moving yet cannot palpate the antibody, you are then admitting that antibodies could and would be in the "joint space" between the cranial bones, therefore RA should occur.

 

[Richie Truxillo]

In my personal experiences with cranial, I'm voting NO for now.

Now, does that mean I'm right? I'm willing to accept the fact that the cranial bones move if someone can find me some good concrete evidence.

I'm still waiting for someone to radiotag lympathics to prove the pedal pump works too. I'm hoping the Osteopathic community will drift away from using sham procedures as a control group for their research eventually. Why?

Because there is power in the human touch and there isn't anyone here that can deny that. For some reason, just touching patients affects them in some way. Herein lies the difficulty of researching "hands-on" techniques since some patients just feel better when someone physically touches them.

Anyway, back to your regularly scheduled flamewar.

 

[homeboy]

i think i've posted this before, but thought it was worth reiterating: whether the skull bones move or not is a mute point (so i guess my post is mute given the thread title...). The real issue is, even if they do move (let's move past the first obstacle and assume yes, they do move...)--is there any data to support the notion that the PRM can be detected (vis-a-vis movable cranial bones) on a continually reliable basis?
And EVEN if it CAN...is there a statistically significant benefit to cranial therapy (whatever form it takes)?

AND moreover...are there any statistically significant data to show that cranial dysfunctions even cause problems necessitating manipulation or that are even fixable with manipulation?

I understand the basis of cranial requires the skull bones to move, but even if the cranial camp won that argument, it doesn't equate to pathology / efficacy of treatment / reliability of detection, etc...

This is not flame-baiting or instigating...these are legitimate questions that should not be interpreted as naivity or disrespect.

 

[Dr. Ram-Rod]

i think i've posted this before, but thought it was worth reiterating: whether the skull bones move or not is a mute point (so i guess my post is mute given the thread title...). The real issue is, even if they do move (let's move past the first obstacle and assume yes, they do move...)--is there any data to support the notion that the PRM can be detected (vis-a-vis movable cranial bones) on a continually reliable basis?
And EVEN if it CAN...is there a statistically significant benefit to cranial therapy (whatever form it takes)?

AND moreover...are there any statistically significant data to show that cranial dysfunctions even cause problems necessitating manipulation or that are even fixable with manipulation?

I understand the basis of cranial requires the skull bones to move, but even if the cranial camp won that argument, it doesn't equate to pathology / efficacy of treatment / reliability of detection, etc...

This is not flame-baiting or instigating...these are legitimate questions that should not be interpreted as naivity or disrespect.

You can check some of my past posts (I know in at least one of them) I've quoted the researchers (2 different studies) and their 'findings'... the motion was in the few hundreds of a micrometer range-- I don't remembering any disproof that this 'finding' could be analytical error caused by respiration, blood flow etc...

 

[OSUdoc08]

You can check some of my past posts (I know in at least one of them) I've quoted the researchers (2 different studies) and their 'findings'... the motion was in the few hundreds of a micrometer range-- I don't remembering any disproof that this 'finding' could be analytical error caused by respiration, blood flow etc...

Which of these studies were on children?

 

[FutureNavyDOc]

Which of these studies were on children?

Does it matter who they were on?

The fact remains that the supposed cranio-sacral impulse has never been proven to be palpable consistently with any level of inter-examiner reliability. Additionally, cranial manipulation has never been proven to be efficacious.


Just because the bowels move and I can feel someone's bowels moving with a high level of inter-examiner agreement doesn't mean we should manipulate the bowels or that manipulation of the bowels provides any therapeutic benefit. Ever heard of a post-op ileus?

 

[OSUdoc08]

Does it matter who they were on?

The fact remains that the supposed cranio-sacral impulse has never been proven to be palpable consistently with any level of inter-examiner reliability. Additionally, cranial manipulation has never been proven to be efficacious.


Just because the bowels move and I can feel someone's bowels moving with a high level of inter-examiner agreement doesn't mean we should manipulate the bowels or that manipulation of the bowels provides any therapeutic benefit. Ever heard of a post-op ileus?

That must be why >50% of my OMM questions of Step I were how to treat GI disorders with OMM (autonomic nervous system, somatovisceral responses, viscerosomatic responses, etc.) 🙄

P.S. You seem to exude bitterness when it comes to osteopathic manipulation. Were you one of those folks who went to DO school because they were rejected from MD schools?

 

[FutureNavyDOc]

That must be why >50% of my OMM questions of Step I were how to treat GI disorders with OMM (autonomic nervous system, somatovisceral responses, viscerosomatic responses, etc.) 🙄

P.S. You seem to exude bitterness when it comes to osteopathic manipulation. Were you one of those folks who went to DO school because they were rejected from MD schools?

Yes, I had a fair amount of OMM and Cranial questions on my boards too including asking whether or not the cranial impulse decreases when a person is depressed. Does this mean that its true? If it is, I guess we have an osteopathic mood ring



I was accepted at MD and DO schools. I chose a DO school because it was the closest school to where my then fiance was finishing up undergrad. If I had been accepted at an MD school that was closer that is where I would have gone. My choice had nothing to do with DO vs MD. I've seen both in practice enough to know that the training is for all intensive purposes equal. Interestingly enough, to this day I have only seen 1 DO outside of an OMM specialist do any OMM in a clinical setting and I have never seen one do cranial nor do I ever expect to.

I didn't know we'd be taught unproven theories like Cranial as though they were proven facts and that we'd be called "non-believers" and "Fake DO's" if we didn't believe every claim made about cranial. Did you know cranial can cure ADD, Colic, Migraines, and thousands of other illnesses? I didn't either, but we were told so in lecture so it must be true. Nevermind that it has never been proven to be efficacious in treating anything. All the claims and posturing about cranial remind me of the time I took my car in for an oil change and was told I needed $800 worth of work or my engine wouldn't last another 1000 miles and I was expected to believe this without questioning. I went to a reputable mechanic, had $50 worth of work done and 50,000 miles later my car still runs fine. Just because someone who is supposedly an authority on something says something doesn't mean it's accurate.

I also didn't know about the beaurocratic BS of the AOA regarding the match etc.

 

[homeboy]

Yes, I had a fair amount of OMM and Cranial questions on my boards too including asking whether or not the cranial impulse decreases when a person is depressed. Does this mean that its true? If it is, I guess we have an osteopathic mood ring



I was accepted at MD and DO schools. I chose a DO school because it was the closest school to where my then fiance was finishing up undergrad. If I had been accepted at an MD school that was closer that is where I would have gone. My choice had nothing to do with DO vs MD. I've seen both in practice enough to know that the training is for all intensive purposes equal. Interestingly enough, to this day I have only seen 1 DO outside of an OMM specialist do any OMM in a clinical setting and I have never seen one do cranial nor do I ever expect to.

I didn't know we'd be taught unproven theories like Cranial as though they were proven facts and that we'd be called "non-believers" and "Fake DO's" if we didn't believe every claim made about cranial. Did you know cranial can cure ADD, Colic, Migraines, and thousands of other illnesses? I didn't either, but we were told so in lecture so it must be true. Nevermind that it has never been proven to be efficacious in treating anything. All the claims and posturing about cranial remind me of the time I took my car in for an oil change and was told I needed $800 worth of work or my engine wouldn't last another 1000 miles and I was expected to believe this without questioning. I went to a reputable mechanic, had $50 worth of work done and 50,000 miles later my car still runs fine. Just because someone who is supposedly an authority on something says something doesn't mean it's accurate.

I also didn't know about the beaurocratic BS of the AOA regarding the match etc.

Bottom line: men of principle object to incongruencies (whether they are directly affected by them or not) if they are contrary to the symmetry of logic one has followed up to this point in life. Craniosacral is a prime example.

 

[mathman]

..of which I know nothing?

I attended every cranial lecture and lab and I got 100% of the cranial questions on the exam right.

I've tried cranial on friends and family and despite the OMM fellows telling me I have "perfect technique" all I've gotten for results are worse headaches than before I did anything and people annoyed at me.

As such, I know as much if not more about cranial than anyone on here who hasn't done extra coursework in Cranial outside of the normal DO curriculum.

Have you ever had Cranial Therapy yourself? If you did, what was your experience like? Do you remember if the practioner was skilled/certified and to what degree?

 

[homeboy]

Have you ever had Cranial Therapy yourself? If you did, what was your experience like? Do you remember if the practioner was skilled/certified and to what degree?

I have, and the practitioner was certified with the 40 hr cranial course, and is solely an OMM doc.
Listen, having never experienced something like cranial is no basis to disqualify someone's argument. I've never experienced magnetic healing or a palm-reading, but I'm still pretty sure they're ridiculous.

 

[FutureNavyDOc]

Have you ever had Cranial Therapy yourself? If you did, what was your experience like? Do you remember if the practioner was skilled/certified and to what degree?

Yeah, I sat though 6 hours of lecture and 6 hours of lab, took a lab practical on it and had exam questions on it and didn't miss a point on the practical or the exam. Our prof is a full-time OMM DO who teaches the 40 hour cranial course over the summer, skill is another question entirely.

I thought it was the most bogus waste of time in my life. I thought I felt something once, asked one prof and she said I had it and said my partner has a right SB/rotation. 1 minute later another prof said it was a left torsion. If even the "skilled experts" can't consistently pick up a "strain pattern" and agree on it, how can anyone else expect to do so especially when they probably don't even exist?



Along the lines of what homeboy said, I've never been to an astrologist and had my palm read nor have I ever taken my dog for accupuncture, but I'm still pretty sure both are as bogus as the Nigerian Tribal Chief who keeps e-mailing me asking me to send him $1,000 cash so he can liberate his $5million fortune to split with me.

 

[Old brain]

#7 Today, 11:27 PM
Ob1


Sense the activity?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HZKsUa2uzjc&mode=related&search=

neurology at its finest moment


If you watch this carefully and wonder does the Nolman valve actually move the skull bones, then consider this video and pay close attention to her ear. The auditory meatus, the largest pair of foramen is how sound travels into the skull, the ear is centered around the fixed hole in the temporal bone. You could not move the temporal bone without moving the ear.

See for yourself, the Nolman valve in action.

Ob1

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Last edited by Ob1 : Today at 11:45 PM. Reason: Observation

 

[Old_Mil]

Oh and I agree debate is great and a healthy part of any discipline. But when somebody that is a student of a profession dismisses the main tenet of said profession as bullsh-t maybe that person has landed him/herself in the wrong field.

OMT hasn't been the main tenent of Osteopathy for half a century or more. Modern medicine is a four legged table that for the most part stands on Pathology, Pharmacology, Physiology, and Microbiology/Immunology. Perhaps it is those who share your viewpoint who should have become Chriopractors -- you're certainly the vocal minority.

 

[8744]

I have to say I'm shocked at some of the quackery they teach you guys in DO school.

 

[sddoc]

Since when do physicians make decisions on whether a medical phenomenon occurs by polling? Good plan guys!

 

[Portier]

They move.

We voted.

 

[DOnut]

I replied to this forum 3 years ago when I was a second year med student. I'm now a physician. I feel the same way. They Do NOT MOVE, unless a hammer is applied with force.

 

[J1515]

but I'm still pretty sure both are as bogus as the Nigerian Tribal Chief who keeps e-mailing me asking me to send him $1,000 cash so he can liberate his $5million fortune to split with me.

What the hell? I got the same email and he told me I was the only one he was splitting his fortune with and that the check is in the mail. Oh well, I guess there's enough there to be split 3 ways.

Back to the topic, excellent point about rheumatoid factor, antibodies, and arthritis. I think someone here should build up the courage and spring that question upon their OMM department and see what they say.

 

[Dr JPH]

If even the "skilled experts" can't consistently pick up a "strain pattern" and agree on it, how can anyone else expect to do so especially when they probably don't even exist?

Agreed.

Does CSF move? Yes.

Are there dural and fascial connections in the head and spinal cord? Yes.

Does the CNS have some sort of inherent motion? (as witnessed by neurosurgeons) Yes.

Is any of this going to cause skull bones to move? No. Sorry.

Thats my professional opinion.

Sincerely,

Your friendly neighborhood OMM Fellow

 

[FizbanZymogen]

Yes JPHazelton, we finally agree on something related to OMM! Thank you for your response. I'm going to go have a cheeseburger now to celebrate our new found friendship. Peace

 

[FizbanZymogen]

But herein lies the problem: the "tenet" of our profession is not osteopathic manipulation; the "tenet" of osteopathic medicine is the same as the tenet MDs subscribe to: patient care, and you don't achieve patient care through manipulation alone.

If you're lamenting the fact that DO students are not as supportive of OMM as practitioners such as yourself, you're in a nostalgic dream world. Medical school application has become a grueling process, and a large percentage of students see the end goal of being a doctor achieved regardless of the route. Being a practicing DO as you said you are, I'm surprised you have not faced this realization already, unless you practice in one of the few DO enclaves in the country (Ohio, MI, Iowa...)

The fact I'm not a practicing physician doesn't mean I can't recognize a pile of bullcrap when I see it.

If the validity of a profession was solely determined by its' practictioners, chiropractic schools would open up at universities.

Couldn't have said it better myself Homeboy. We are first and foremost physicians regardless of our degrees (In my case I will begin becoming a physician this fall). Some people I know were MD rejects and so went DO. Who freakin cares! They want to be physicians not MD's or DO's. If you think OMM is a pile of $%^ then don't use it and practice according to your conscience. If you believe it works go for it. But please don't tell people who are going to become or are already DO's who don't buy the whole OMM program that they are unworthy to be DO's.

 

[Doc 2b]

I can't believe any of you whack o's think they move. Hell you can put your hand on a wall and feel it move if you "believe." What horse****! I'm embarassed for you.

 

[NYCDoc80]

There is a recent articel in teh JAOA that stated that I think the lambdoidal (is this spelled right, I'm so tired, I don't remember) moved due to all the muscle attachments. The saggital one was fused or partially fused...it did a study of only 34 skulls though, so its probably not as accurate, you'd need to study more like 1000 skulls to get a better answer. I am in no way an expert in OMT, never felt the cranial rhythm in school...just what I saw in the journal.

 

[MichelleVsMedSt]

I cannot prove that the bones are moving. BUT I do feel something. I don't know if its the bone or if I'm feeling through to the pulsations of the arteries or CSF fluctuations. What I do know is that I have stopped people's pain. I have stopped migraines and helped insomnia by doing the CV4 technique. I have treated tension headaches by doing suture spreading techniques. Thats not faith, its results.

 

[jhug]

JP- for no real reason other than curiosity...what made you switch your feelings about cranial? I had noticed early on you were more open to the idea (and was surprised because we seem to agree on most things and i was shocked to see you defending quackery)
michelle- as was stated earlier, there is something in "the touch" that is therapeutic...holding someones hand, rubbing an owie, whatever...and getting someone to buy into a treatment is also therapeutic- that's why you see 10% of men taking placebo instead of viagra who claim to have better "performance"...cranial is *at best* a placebo...so should we be taught, tested, and held responsible for fallacy-laced placebo treatments? I would say that is unethical and wrong...quite un-osteopathic.

 

[Dr JPH]

JP- for no real reason other than curiosity...what made you switch your feelings about cranial? I had noticed early on you were more open to the idea

I think it would be foolish to simply write off any potentially useful treatment modality before fully understanding it and learning about it...not to mention trying to use it. So when presented with the idea of cranial I feel the best approach is to take the anecdotal claims with a grain of salt and really research what is going on...not something that can be done overnight.

So as an OMM Fellow cranial was the last hurdle...the final frontier for me.

Since 2003 I have taken 3 separate cranial courses as well as helped in a few others. I am a member of the cranial academy and have even participated in research studying the cranial model. I have helped teach cranial in OMM lab, as it is part of the required curricula of DO schools.

Here is what bothers me about cranial as it is taught:

1. No concise model. There are several different methods of describing cranial and a few are intertwined, but none have me convinced. When one model doesnt fit perfectly there are several ways that people try to explain things to make the model fit.

2. Lack of inter examiner reliability. There are a few new studies coming out on this so I can't go too far, but basically you can have a cranial pattern and 6 people will describe it 6 different ways. Are they all interpreting the same thing? Maybe...maybe not.

3. Lack of convincing research. True...most of OMT doesnt have very strong research backing, but most of what is used has a sound biomechanical and physiologic basis. When it comes to cranial research the research that is supportive of OMT is suspect at best and the research that is against cranial is quickly mocked by the cranial field. Brings me to my last point....

4. Cranial has an almost cult following. It seems enough for most of these folks that there is no true understood mechanism, no solid research and no agreement among peers.

Now...have I used cranial on patients? Yes.

As I said above, I could not in good faith argue against something unless I myself have tried it, seen it or had it done.

Do I get results? Sometimes...but they are inconsistent.

Who benefits from cranial? Patients who believe they will benefit and patients who are told this is their "last hope".

What do I think is happening?

Are people feeling something with cranial? Yes. I think they are feeling myofascial and musculoskeletal structures that are surrounding the temporal and zygomatic bones. I DO NOT think they are feeling the movement of the dura, temporal bones of CSF.

A simple exercise is to place your hands on a person in the vault hold. Have the patient clench their teeth, push their tongue against the roof of their mouth, push their tongue backwards...all of those will produce movements that the cranial people say "mimick" cranial movements. I dont think they are mimicking anything...I think thats what you are really feeling.

So I think cranial therapy is often no more than myofascial release to the skull and upper cervical region.

So...those are my own personal feelings. Developed over the last 5 years...particularly the last 3 through patients, courses and research.

So just as a reminder to those of you in here who want to bach on cranial...thats fine and its you right, but at least take the time to study what it is you are fighting against before opening your mouth. It will make you sound a lot smarter and bolster your argument that much more.