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Do Student Failing Usmle Step 1

Discussion in 'Medical Students - DO' started by SIMRAN111, Nov 28, 2005.

  1. SIMRAN111

    SIMRAN111 New Member
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    1. Does anyone know the consequences of a DO student failing USMLE step 1 and wanting to take USMLE step 2... Will the ERAS allow them to post their results from USMLE step 2 if they do not want to report their scores from step 1.

    2. Also would the programs know of their scores if they do not report it.. I am just interested in knowing how the whole thing works for DO students.

    3. Are the Comlex scores good enough to get into decent comp residencies like ER/ anesth???

    I would appreciate any information. Thank you.
     
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  3. OSUdoc08

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    You need to take the USMLE for most ACGME ER programs (per program directors.)
     
  4. Thousandth

    Thousandth Ride This!
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  5. OSUdoc08

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    I spoke with several ACGME residency directors, and they spoke to the contrary.

    It depends on where you apply. A majority of the places I am looking into want you to take it.
     
  6. Wednesday

    Wednesday Senior Member
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    I don't think you can take Step II if you haven't passed Step I (maybe COMLEX I counts?). You should look into that. Additionally, when scores go out from ERAS, they release everything up to a certain date. This is why you can transmit Step I without Step II (if you haven't taken it before you release you scores) but I don't think you can selectively not submit one score in the midst of others if you've taken exams after the one you failed.
     
  7. nrddct

    nrddct carlover
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    What about DO friendly states such as the NE? Do ACGME residencies in these states accept complex scores for EM or other specialties?
     
  8. OSUdoc08

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    Most residencies in Oklahoma that I know of accept COMLEX. On the other hand, the residency directors I've spoken to in Texas prefer the USMLE.

    Contact the specific programs you are interested in, and ask them what they prefer.

    I know people that had intended upon applying to ACGME residencies, and did not take the USMLE. After multiple rejections, they regret that decision.

    This is not to say there aren't certain programs that accept just COMLEX, because there are.
     
  9. Sugar72

    Sugar72 Senior Member
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    You should take the USMLE if you are thinking about applying to allopathic residencies - especially competitive ones. Yes, most programs will take comlex if you only have comlex scores - but it makes it easier for the program to compare you to other applicants. There are some places that require USMLE step one and step 2.

    If you don't take USMLE step one you can still take Step 2 in your fourth year. If you take step one and fail, on your ERAS application just don't submit your USMLE transcript. A couple of people in the class ahead of me did that - then no program knows you failed it. I don't know if you can take step 2 if you failed step one - but even if you can - your fail will show up on your USMLE transcript there will be no way to hide it.

    I did better on the USMLE than i did on the comlex and the writing of the USMLE is vastly superior to the comlex. do not fear it - just suck it up, study some biostatistics and spend another joyful day in front of a computer at your friendly prometric center.
     
  10. Sugar72

    Sugar72 Senior Member
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    sorry let me try again


    1. Does anyone know the consequences of a DO student failing USMLE step 1 and wanting to take USMLE step 2... Will the ERAS allow them to post their results from USMLE step 2 if they do not want to report their scores from step 1.

    your step 1 score would be reported

    2. Also would the programs know of their scores if they do not report it.. I am just interested in knowing how the whole thing works for DO students.

    no

    3. Are the Comlex scores good enough to get into decent comp residencies like ER/ anesth???

    not likely unless you only apply to DO residencies
     
  11. apass

    apass Senior Member
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    1. The consequences are a. you failed and you will not be allowed to sit for the USMLE step II without passing step one. B. if you are applying to programs and they ask you if you took the USMLE you have to tell them you did and that you failed. Otherwise there are no other issues besides that failing would be miserable.

    2. No the programs would not know your scores. If you fill out an application you can just list your comlex score. You would not release your scores from the USMLE

    3 FOR THE LOVE OF GOD - YES - I think this is the most annoying question that is seen repeatedly on this site. I am a third year and know of several fourth years that have average scores that are interviewing and ER programs all over in the country - yes ACGME programs. These students are fromt the south and want to return home and there are few if any AOA programs there. To be honest just look up the residency. For example - Washington University has a DO professor on staff in the EM program. He is a graduate of the kansas city. Call him and talk to him.

    Okay let me know if you have any other questions.
     
  12. (nicedream)

    (nicedream) Fitter Happier
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    Couldn't one just lie and say they did not take it?
     
  13. DeLaughterDO

    DeLaughterDO Ghost in the Machine
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    Ummm.. that would be unethical and speak of bad character. If they found out that you did in fact take the exam (I don't know how they would find out, but just hypothetically... these things have a way of getting around, especially in medicine), you would probably immediately be taken off their match list - and I can guarantee the PD at that program would tell everyone he/she knows about it. You probably wouldn't get in anywhere...

    Happy lying!

    jd
     
  14. apass

    apass Senior Member
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    I agree with DelaughterDO - you can't LIE! Professionalism is a huge issue in medical schools these days. I guess you could lie sure that is your decision but I would never do that.
     
  15. Sugar72

    Sugar72 Senior Member
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    I am an MS4 applying to anesthesiology programs right now and I have friends applying to EM programs and apass is right there are programs (most programs) that will take only comlex scores - they know that as DO's comlex is your licensing exam. Unless there is a DO on staff that is comfortable with the comlex scoring, it is difficult for them to compare you to allopathic applicants. USMLE is still required at some programs. Unless you are 100% sure you want to stay osteopathic for residency I would urge everyone to sit for USMLE step 1.

    Anesthesiology is pretty competitive this year and I am 100% sure I wouldn't have half of the interview offers I have now if I hadn't taken the USMLE.
     
  16. apass

    apass Senior Member
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    I am just a third year and I did sit for and pass the UMSLE but I am thinking of not reporting my score because it was just below average but still thank God with in the Standard deviation. If I beat the minimum requirments then yes I will list it otherwise if no min on the USMLE is known then I will exclude it. One of the professors at our school strongly recomended that we take the USMLE while others thought it hurt the COMLEX and that we are osteopathic medical students not allopathic.

    In my class about half the class sat for the USMLE - I think our pass rate was about 85%.
     
  17. bones

    bones Osteopathic Physician
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    This will vary regionally around the country. The top programs (that i know of) all over the country in all specialties take comlex- and all programs that i know of in regions of the country with DO schools also take comlex. The only ones that are USMLE-only are backwater allopathic programs with little to no exposure to DO's. These places may have docs with anti-DO sentiment anyway.
     
  18. apass

    apass Senior Member
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    Excellant - I completely agree. Thanks for stating this
     
  19. (nicedream)

    (nicedream) Fitter Happier
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    Then what is the point of having the option of not reporting scores if they can just ask you about it? Give me a break. They can't find out. If you took it, failed, did not report scores, and were then asked if you took the exam - you would say "yes I did, and I failed" ? Yeah, that's a great way to get on the top of the rank list....
     
  20. apass

    apass Senior Member
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    Most likely if you failed you are not going to be at the top of the rank list anyways - seriously if you didn't pass then your grades probably reflect along with your COMLEX scores.
     
  21. (nicedream)

    (nicedream) Fitter Happier
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    I didn't mean literally at the top of the list. If they find out you failed, which they will if you tell them you took it and didn't report, that guarantees you not even being ranked. By your logic, there is no point to not reporting scores because they will find out you failed anyway by you being honest - so if you fail the USMLE, I guess in your opinion theres no point in even applying to programs.
     
  22. Sugar72

    Sugar72 Senior Member
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    It is not about places that WON"T take you without USMLE scores it is about making it easier for programs to compare you with the majority of other applicants. It is not that programs are biased or are anti-DO...it is just easier for them to compare you to the other applicants. That being said - the computerized comlex is now going to the mysterious 2 digit number that is not a percentile much like the USMLE so it will be easier for them to compare. I know more than one person who wishes they would have taken the USMLE step 1 when they took the comlex. Good luck to all.
     
  23. DrMom

    DrMom Official Mom of SDN
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    The new 2 digit score will most definitely NOT make it easier to compare the scores. It is on a completely different scale from the USMLE 2 digit score. In fact, a really good COMLEX 2 digit score looks like a bad USMLE score.
     
  24. Sugar72

    Sugar72 Senior Member
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    You know I wondered about that - my new 2 digit score for comlex step one is literally 6 points lower than my previous 2 digit score. WOW what an incentive to take the USMLE. I guess I misspoke - I think I read somewhere on this forum that the new scaling was supposed to make it more comparable to the USMLE. Thanks for straightening me out.
     
  25. Thousandth

    Thousandth Ride This!
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    According to rumors flying around our schools Student Goverment, starting with this years boards there will be NO option on reporting scores. This means that if you sit for the USMLE and do bad/fail these scores will be released regardless of your desires. Again this is just rumor now but if true it throws a whole wrench into it. Besides the plan fact of the matter is our schools prepare us for taking the COMLEX not the USMLE. I do believe that I read somewhere that the national average of DO's passing the USMLE is only 60%. I know this was close to what the class ahead of ours did this past year, several who did well on COMLEX failed the USMLE.

    Another point of view is if the resideny requires you to take the USMLE chances are that they are not going to take a DO period. One of the best options to figure out "DO friendly" residencies (at least for EM, which is what the OP was asking) is use the EMRA Match guide. every resideny listed has the number of current DO residents and teh number or DO's for the past 5 years. It also breaks this down for IMG's as well. A good indicator is if they havent had any DO's in the past 5 years and they dont have any now then they will not have any in the near future.
     
  26. apass

    apass Senior Member
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    Okay I know the point of this wasn't to point out the percentage of DOs passing the USMLE but this year we (KCUMB) had an about an 80-85% pass rate and I have always seen an average pass rate of 70 percent or above - okay it was 73% in 2003 and 67% in 2002 just wanted to say that even though it doesn't really matter.
     
  27. apass

    apass Senior Member
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    Well I think you are really stretching this one. I know a few people that have not passed the USMLE in the class ahead of me and are applying to both osteopathic and allopathic programs - I don't think most people ask about the test at all. All you have to do is fill out the application form - you don't have to fill in your USMLE scores. I don't know what else to recommend - I am not in this position and if I was I would not mention anything unless asked. I don't think I would lie about it because I don't know if they can find out if you sat for the test or not.
     
  28. DeLaughterDO

    DeLaughterDO Ghost in the Machine
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    Nicedream;

    I agree with you - I said I don't now how they'd find out... But they may ask you if you took the USMLE.. hell, they ask women if they plan on getting married or having a child during residency (all illegal questions, btw), so why wouldn't they ask that?

    And if asked, and you lie, you are telling a lot about yourself - even if they never find out, you'll always know.

    again, happy lying, cheating, and whoring!

    jd
     
  29. (nicedream)

    (nicedream) Fitter Happier
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    No, because they have no right to know.
     
  30. (nicedream)

    (nicedream) Fitter Happier
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    This may be, but some students do better on the USMLE than on the COMLEX. I would not be surprised if this were the case for me, as my strengths are pharm/micro/path/phys and my weaknesses are omm/anatomy.
     
  31. DeLaughterDO

    DeLaughterDO Ghost in the Machine
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    no RIGHT to know? They have no right to know most of the things they ask you on your application or at your interview. That does not mean they will not ask...
     
  32. (nicedream)

    (nicedream) Fitter Happier
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    I just don't think you are obligated to be honest when being asked a question which the questioner doesn't have the right to know. If you do not report a score, that means they don't get to know your score, period. By asking if you took it and you saying yes, that does tell them your score (failed). Therefore the appropriate response, in my opinion, would be to say you did not take it. The end result is the same - they don't know your score, which is the intention of optional reporting in the first place.
     
  33. OSUdoc08

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    Glad to know we are continuing the tradition of integrity in medicine.

    You're a winner!

    :thumbup:
     
  34. (nicedream)

    (nicedream) Fitter Happier
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    You're gay, but I don't go around posting about it on the internet.
     
  35. DeLaughterDO

    DeLaughterDO Ghost in the Machine
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    I didn't realize there was EVER a time when one is not obligated to be honest... Hell, I thought that's what honesty was all about.

    If one didn't plan on reporting the score, why take the exam? Just to say you did and MAYBE if you passed it and MANAGED to do well, then MAYBE you'll tell someone about it? Why not just save the $$$ and not bother? Then you're not stuck in this situation where you're forcing yourself to be dishonest in order to fool programs about your performance on board exams.

    Personally, I don't think reporting scores should be optional, but that's just me. Maybe then, people would take these exams a little more seriously and actually apply a little effort to studying.
     
  36. DeLaughterDO

    DeLaughterDO Ghost in the Machine
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    This is rude and uncalled for
     
  37. (nicedream)

    (nicedream) Fitter Happier
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    Why the hell do you care what other people are doing?
     
  38. (nicedream)

    (nicedream) Fitter Happier
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    It's not rude to say "you're a winner!" ?
     
  39. DeLaughterDO

    DeLaughterDO Ghost in the Machine
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    Because LYING is wrong and brings down the rest of us trying to better ourselves and our profession.

    I didn't say that. I merely said it is rude to comment on a person's sexuality in a public forum - true or not. Another one of those things that is none of yours, mine, or anyone else's business. OSUdoc had a point, though..
     
  40. (nicedream)

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    I didn't mean about the lying, I meant about other people reporting scores or how much effort they put into studying. If they want to go into the test and wing it, that's their prerogative.

    As for OSUdoc, I have no idea if he's gay or not, I was using it in the colloquial, offensive sense.

    I have a point too - it's that everyone should mind their own damn business.
     
  41. somnolent

    somnolent Member
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    I like your honesty.
     
  42. OSUdoc08

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    :thumbup:

    This is a public forum. Don't post if you don't want others to read.
     
  43. (nicedream)

    (nicedream) Fitter Happier
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    I meant mind their own business about what others are doing about the USMLE - reporting or not reporting, studying or not studying, etc.
     
  44. DrMom

    DrMom Official Mom of SDN
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    You guys need to quit with the personal attacks...ALL of you. It is really quite silly & nonproductive to the OP's questions.
     
  45. Arch Guillotti

    Arch Guillotti Senior Member
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    Sorry but you are wrong on this one. Always be truthful, or it will hurt you in the end. I myself have been through a similar situation, since I passed Step I but did not have a very good score. I debated reporting it or not, and I debated what to do if I didn't report it and someone asked be about the USMLE at my interviews. Fotunately I did MUCH better on Step II (and III) so I went ahead and released my scores and didn't have to worry about it. Take it from someone who has been through the process - your attitude stinks.
     
  46. (nicedream)

    (nicedream) Fitter Happier
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    WWDD?
     
  47. Vince

    Vince Senior Member
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    IMPORTANT CONCEPT!!!! PLEASE READ!

    If you are a first or second year DO student and are pondering competitive specialities, you NEED to take USMLE Step 1. Study hard and take it because many ACGME program directors will have nothing else to compare you to other MD applicants. There will be some PDs who won't care, but its better to be on the safe side because competitive programs and/or programs in highly desirable locals might want the score.

    Also, and more importantly in my opinion. Many 1st and 2nd year students, whether MD or DO, have no clue what specialty they want to go into. There's the 1/3, 1/3, 1/3 rule that I heard once. Only a 1/3 of med students will start medical school "knowing" what specialty they are going into and actually go into it. Another 1/3 will decide third year while on clerkships what specialty they want, and the last 1/3 will either decide fourth year or probably end up changing their mind once in a specialty/during internship, and switching. Point being that maybe you want to do EM/Gas now, but after starting rotations maybe you'll decide you want to do Ophtho or Derm...and now what...you've already taken USMLE Step 1 with the thought of going into EM/Gas, and now you might be wishing you studied harder, or took USMLE Step 1 altogether. If you wait to take Step 1 later you'll likely have forgotten quite a bit.

    In my example: I was 90% sure that I was going into EM the first two years of medical school and I thought it important to take USMLE Step 1 so that PD's could compare. I thought EM was a fairly competitive specialty at the time and arguably it might be more so now. Little did I know at the time that after a few months on rotations my third year I became interested in radiology. Now its a whole new ball game....."I wish I had done better on Step 1, and maybe I'd get more interviews and feel better about my chances." I thought my Step 1 was fairly good for most ER programs, but when it came time my fourth year to apply for Rads....talk about nervous.

    So I always tell first and second year students when I see them, to study hard and take USMLE Step 1, and shoot for as high as you can get. In the end, if you still want to do FP or something, no loss....because it won't be that vital to have a stellar Step 1.......but if you decide you love Orthopedic Surgery....its definitely better to have a Step 1 of 250 going into the application process....it can only help you.
     
  48. apass

    apass Senior Member
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    Hate to say it but there is very little cross over in orthopedic surgery - It is highly competitive to get into the AOA approved programs. I don't agree with your above statement at all but it is too late and I am too tired to work on a response. Plus this topic has been debated recently with many good responses to what you have stated.
     
  49. kota315

    kota315 drive fast, take chances!
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    I too once thought that you needed to take the USMLE to be competative at allopathic residencies.... alas this is not the truth....the days of being locked out of allopathic residencies because you haven't taken the USMLE are fading into the sunset.... A friend of mine took only his COMLEX and is currently doing his ER residency at one of the largest LEVEL 1 trauma centers in Michigan. My Mentor, also a DO did his residency at the same facility, advised me that all you need is your COMLEX and that you should re-think doing your residency at any facility that wanted you to take the USMLE as they probably wouldn't treat you like an equal in the end. So to clear up the misconceptions....YOU DO NOT HAVE TO TAKE THE USMLE....if you are concerned, contact the facility that you are interested in and confirm with them.
     
  50. joedo

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    Hey there, question.. Does anyone know for certain if a DO student fails Step 1 can he/she take Step 2?

    Thanks.
     
  51. (nicedream)

    (nicedream) Fitter Happier
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    Good question, but why would you want to? When you reported your Step 2, your Step 1 would show up. I'm pretty sure no programs would rank anyone that failed Step 1.
     

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