DO students do not take notes on rotations, have no patient experience.

[Kahuku Monkey]

I can't believe people are taking this thread seriously!!

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[neworleans8]

If by OP you are referring to the person who started the thread in the Osteo forum...ok (but I saw more of a conversation taking place over there)

If by OP you are referring to the troll with 1 post that started this thread, then please explain what topic he introduced that is important....in this thread I observed an OP basically saying that students should go Caribbean because DO schools suck and then proceeded to advertise how great Carib schools are.

Sorry if I wasn't clear - I didn't mean to cite any one example or person's post. Just a general feeling I get from having been reading and following these threads for months. It wasn't supposed to be an attack - I just think the conversations are really helpful and it's important that negative aspects, as well as positive ones, are openly shared.

I could also just be very bad at recognizing troll posts.

 

[Bacchus]

So basically what you're saying is that: person in referenced thread did not take any initiative.

I can't speak about the person. It is frustrating to write a practice note because you know its not going to be used. It's even more frustrating if your residents don't review said notes to give you insight. That said, you still have to take the initiative to learn, because regardless of your rotations you will be expected to be a competent intern.

 

[Drwatsom]

I know people say that if you put work into picking your rotations, you can get ward-based, good preceptors etc. However, I am having a hard time understanding how this works logistically. You find rotations you want (at hospitals your DO school may or may not be affiliated with) and aggressively contact that hospital until they agree? Sorry if this is a dumb question.

Maybe ill eat my words in the future, but the clinical curriculum of medical school is what I am most excited about. The idea of getting subpar experience just plan sucks.

I feel the same. I know so little regarding rotations... Most students I have talked to just say "don't worry about that now. Just focus on the school and pre-clinical education."
I understand step1: determinant.
But aren't your rotations and the recommendations you get from them also important?

The only osteopathic school I remember that put emphasis on rotations was NYCOM. But now that they are diluting with other schools idk anymore.

And why don't osteopathic schools have their own teaching hospitals instead of opening up more campuses.

 

[hallowmann]

...And why don't osteopathic schools have their own teaching hospitals instead of opening up more campuses.

Don't some DO schools have teaching hospitals? Especially the ones that have been around for >100 yrs and those that have osteopathic hospitals near them.

 

[MedPR]

Don't some DO schools have teaching hospitals? Especially the ones that have been around for >100 yrs and those that have osteopathic hospitals near them.

Very few do. And the ones that do are almost all public.

Sent from my SGH-T999 using SDN Mobile

 

[user3]

and why don't osteopathic schools have their own teaching hospitals instead of opening up more campuses.

+1

 

[user3]

Very few do. And the ones that do are almost all public.

Sent from my SGH-T999 using SDN Mobile

and the state DO schools are the only ones that come remotely close to being able to compete with MD schools. The DO world would probably be in a better place today had there been more MSU's, UNT's, and UMDNJ's opened rather than X Y and Z freestanding/tiny liberal arts school COM.

 

[Ravizzle]

I thought you wanted to go on a cruise with me. But you're right, we'll be as close as you get.

How about we go to a Carib med school that is ON a cruise!

Sent from my Galaxy S2

 

[Siggy]

Since this is the most recent MD v DO thread, I'd just like to point out why DO>MD.

Alphabetical order.

/thread.

 

[Kahuku Monkey]

How about we go to a Carib med school that is ON a cruise!

Sent from my Galaxy S2

Hell yes!! Tropical drinks in OPP lab, suntanning by the pool watching lectures on iPad, study groups at the pool bar. It would be le-gen-dary!!

 

[Kahuku Monkey]

Since this is the most recent MD v DO thread, I'd just like to point out why DO>MD.

Alphabetical order.

/thread.

Actually this is Caribbean MD vs DO.
Therefore, alphabetically,
Caribbean MD>DO

 

[Kahuku Monkey]

.

 

[JGimpel]

Us DOs are still surprised we can put together 2 words to make a sentence, of course we're not allowed to write real notes in charts. We barely learned how to write anything. Maybe one day...

Anyone else had to write on those lame hot pink/red note papers in the charts? If there was any doubt that you were a med student, writing in one of those definitely sealed it. One of the best things about my DO education, black pen on white paper; attending wrote using my note as the primary source. I was a trusted part of the team. That's not a DO or MD thing, but I appreciated that the most.

My n=1 says that pre-meds should look at the location/quality of core rotation sites when looking to choose one school over the other. You know where all the numbers and variability in getting the most choice in residency comes from? How well you self-study in your first 2 years and the quality of your clerkships in the last 2, so make sure you've got your criteria chosen properly.

Kahuka self-bumped 3 times within a few minute time span. What offshore medical school do you work for? Used [email protected] to create an SDN account.

 

[Skeeks]

*chuckle*

 

[Skeeks]

Very few do. And the ones that do are almost all public.

A couple of the non state schools with teaching hospitals include TUNCOM KCOM and DMU.

 

[felix2929]

Very few do. And the ones that do are almost all public.

A couple of the non state schools with teaching hospitals include TUNCOM KCOM and DMU.

Umm KCOM and DMU don't. I dont' know what TUNCOM is so I can't comment. KCOM is next to a hospital but it is a small community hospital and there aren't enough spots for all of the students to rotate there so their students are sent all over the place just like many other DO schools.

 

[NontradCA]

Thanks, Obama.

 

[felix2929]

The take home message is that not all DO schools are the same, just as not all MD schools are the same. There are a few MD schools where their clinical educational experiences are also subpar. You have to look at the individual school and their curriculum as well as their clinical affiliation. You can't make broad generalization about DO schools, just as you can't about MD schools.

I would like for pre medical students to start asking schools about the clinical education. Just like match list and complex pass rate, letting schools know that you view clinical education and opportunities as important factors in picking a school will motivate the schools to increase their effort in increasing the quality of clinical experience. If no one ask, then there is less pressure to improve these affiliations and experiences.

I did ask about this at several of my interviews however often the interviewers were ill prepared to answer these questions. The students who we tended to have access to were usually 1st years (at KCOM we also saw 2nd year students) none of whom know much more about the clinical education than the interviewees. Also since practically every student gets sent somewhere else (at least at the schools i interviewed at KCOM, DMU, CCOM, KCUMB) the experience is so different for each student that it was really hard to nail down specifics since in the future you may end up at a different hospital with a different preceptor. It was very frustrating.

 

[GUH]

and the state DO schools are the only ones that come remotely close to being able to compete with MD schools. The DO world would probably be in a better place today had there been more MSU's, UNT's, and UMDNJ's opened rather than X Y and Z freestanding/tiny liberal arts school COM.

Sorry, I fail to see why a state school automatically delivers higher-quality education than a private school. Please elaborate.

 

[felix2929]

Sorry, I fail to see why a state school automatically delivers higher-quality education than a private school. Please elaborate.

because of the superior clinical education when you have your own teaching hospital

 

[GUH]

because of the superior clinical education when you have your own teaching hospital

Ah; gotcha.

Very few do. And the ones that do are almost all public.

A couple of the non state schools with teaching hospitals include TUNCOM KCOM and DMU.

I wasn't aware that TUNCOM had an affiliated teaching hospital for its students... and I'm going there in the Fall. Which hospital is it?

 

[MedPR]

Ah; gotcha.



I wasn't aware that TUNCOM had an affiliated teaching hospital for its students... and I'm going there in the Fall. Which hospital is it?

Fix your quote. I didn't say that TUNCOM had a hospital.

 

[MedPR]

A couple of the non state schools with teaching hospitals include TUNCOM KCOM and DMU.

No they don't.

 

[MedPR]

Sorry, I fail to see why a state school automatically delivers higher-quality education than a private school. Please elaborate.

It's not automatically better. There is just less deviation (and more regulation) at one site versus several sites.

 

[DrCalculi]

State DO schools have a public mission to fulfill, so they get a lot of support from the medical establishment when it comes to training and making sure everyone is qualified and clinically on par with their MD counterparts. Their rotation sites are typically fixed and their students seldom have to travel.

 

[GUH]

State DO schools have a public mission to fulfill, so they get a lot of support from the medical establishment when it comes to training and making sure everyone is qualified and clinically on par with their MD counterparts.

Forgive me for being skeptical about the .gov having the best interests of medical students at heart, especially after what happened to UMDNJ-SOM (soon to be RowanSOM) this past year.

Their rotation sites are typically fixed and their students seldom have to travel.

This makes more sense. But this one sounds like it really boils down to convenience then.

 

[MedPR]

State DO schools have a public mission to fulfill, so they get a lot of support from the medical establishment when it comes to training and making sure everyone is qualified and clinically on par with their MD counterparts. Their rotation sites are typically fixed and their students seldom have to travel.

Public mission has nothing to do with it. Nobody is concerned with DOs being equivalent to MDs except SDN.

 

[Skeeks]

Umm KCOM and DMU don't. I dont' know what TUNCOM is so I can't comment. KCOM is next to a hospital but it is a small community hospital and there aren't enough spots for all of the students to rotate there so their students are sent all over the place just like many other DO schools.

TUNCOM is Touro University in Nevada.

No they don't.

Maybe we have different definitions of affiliated hospitals. Are we talking about hospitals that they are associated with (I use the terms affiliated and associated interchangably) or are you talking about hospitals that have the university's name?

When I said those schools did have affiliated hospitals I meant hospitals that are local to the campus that have established rotation sites for the school.

Edit: After rereading I realize my mistake. I read too quickly and inserted associated hospitals for teaching hospitals. There is a big difference. I apologize, MedPR and felix are right. There are no "Teaching Hospitals" at those three locations.

They do, however, have good reputable hospitals that they are associated with where a lot of your clinical education occurs and residency positions are available.

 

[user3]

Sorry, I fail to see why a state school automatically delivers higher-quality education than a private school. Please elaborate.

read costales's quote here...could not have stated it better.

The big state DO schools have an inherent advantage, and I believe they play a role in protecting the DO degree in the eye of the public and looking after their graduates. They share the same ecosystem within the state with the other state universities, including access to some resources. Faculty and staff are government employees and supported by an entrenched bureaucracy, politicians and alumni throughout the state. They can self-perpetuate and influence policy in the same way as the state MD schools.

 

[GUH]

The big state DO schools have an inherent advantage, and I believe they play a role in protecting the DO degree in the eye of the public and looking after their graduates. They share the same ecosystem within the state with the other state universities, including access to some resources. Faculty and staff are government employees and supported by an entrenched bureaucracy, politicians and alumni throughout the state. They can self-perpetuate and influence policy in the same way as the state MD schools.

Yeah that sounds pretty hokey.

 

[MedPR]

TUNCOM is Touro University in Nevada.



Maybe we have different definitions of affiliated hospitals. Are we talking about hospitals that they are associated with (I use the terms affiliated and associated interchangably) or are you talking about hospitals that have the university's name?

When I said those schools did have affiliated hospitals I meant hospitals that are local to the campus that have established rotation sites for the school.

Edit: After rereading I realize my mistake. I read too quickly and inserted associated hospitals for teaching hospitals. There is a big difference. I apologize, MedPR and felix are right. There are no "Teaching Hospitals" at those three locations.

They do, however, have good reputable hospitals that they are associated with where a lot of your clinical education occurs and residency positions are available.

By your definition, all schools have affiliate hospitals.

Not all MD academic hospitals share the same name as the school. WashU and Barnes Jewish, for example.

Sent from my SGH-T999 using SDN Mobile

 

[Drwatsom]

Actually this is Caribbean MD vs DO.
Therefore, alphabetically,
Caribbean MD>DO

American DO > Caribbean MD

 

[Mr Kenobi]

Actually this is Caribbean MD vs DO.
Therefore, alphabetically,
Caribbean MD>DO

American DO > Caribbean MD

 

[as1212559]

Thanks, Obama.

This.

 

[Kahuku Monkey]

Outstanding! I have learned from the masters. I shall now take my DO spot and like it.

 

[DocEspana]

I'm curious. What qualifies as a university hospital in this conversation? That the hospital calls itself such and states your school is the university it refers to? What if it claims affiliation with more than one school formally? Does it have to be geographically within a small proximity of the school? Does the school need to be literally inside of it/on its campus? Does it have to be able to accommodate every student? Most students? Some students?

This conversation needs definitions before we keep making specious arguments about the presence or lack of teaching hospitals. Perhaps a debate of the relevance of certain definitions that are too strict or too lenient is required too.

 

[felix2929]

I'm curious. What qualifies as a university hospital in this conversation? That the hospital calls itself such and states your school is the university it refers to? What if it claims affiliation with more than one school formally? Does it have to be geographically within a small proximity of the school? Does the school need to be literally inside of it/on its campus? Does it have to be able to accommodate every student? Most students? Some students?

This conversation needs definitions before we keep making specious arguments about the presence or lack of teaching hospitals. Perhaps a debate of the relevance of certain definitions that are too strict or too lenient is required too.

Yea, I think people are using some different definitions on here. Like MedPR said, if you just say a school has hospitals "affliated with it" then that is every medical school out there including the carribbean schools who send students here for rotations. When I think of a school having a teaching hospital I think of a hospital (or system of multiple hospitals) with multiple residency training programs and enough space for all of their students to take turns rotating through at least the core programs in third year, IM, Surg, Psych, OB. Possibly even inpt pediatrics.

 

[Siggy]

American DO > Caribbean MD

Technically the Caribbean schools are in America... just not the United States of America.

 

[MedPR]

Technically the Caribbean schools are in America... just not the United States of America.

Technically we are all in China

Sent from my SGH-T999 using SDN Mobile

 

[NontradCA]

Technically we are all in China

Sent from my SGH-T999 using SDN Mobile

Thanks, Obama.





Sorry, too easy.

 

[Siggy]

Technically we are all in China

Sent from my SGH-T999 using SDN Mobile

Well, the Sino-American Treaty worked out pretty good on Firefly.

/Shiny.

 

[Drwatsom]

Technically the Caribbean schools are in America... just not the United States of America.

You must not be from the US.
Only... THE REST OF THE WORLD uses "America" as the primordial definition.
Then again, I said "American" and that usage is almost entirely : United States citizen. (With the exception of a few 20th century latinamerican writers)
Or so my dictionary seems to think so. So... THECHNICALLY speaking, I'm ok.

 

[Siggy]

You must not be from the US.
Only... THE REST OF THE WORLD uses "America" as the primordial definition.
Then again, I said "American" and that usage is almost entirely : United States citizen. (With the exception of a few 20th century latinamerican writers)
Or so my dictionary seems to think so

No... I'm a US citizen. I also understand the history of the word (stupid cartographers putting their name in places it don't belong).

Besides, being technically correct is the best kind of correct.

 

[survivordo]

I would like for pre medical students to start asking schools about the clinical education. Just like match list and complex pass rate, letting schools know that you view clinical education and opportunities as important factors in picking a school will motivate the schools to increase their effort in increasing the quality of clinical experience. If no one ask, then there is less pressure to improve these affiliations and experiences.

This is a great point. Pre-clinical education is pretty standard and is definitely about what you yourself put into it. While you need to push yourself during clinical years as well there are some rotations where you won't even be given that opportunity. Clinical rotations are where you begin to learn how to function like an actual doc, they are imperative to succeeding on audition rotations and in turn getting a residency spot. The quality of rotations offered should be considered heavily when considering which school to attend regardless of MD or DO.

Survivor DO

 

[GUH]

This is a great point. Pre-clinical education is pretty standard and is definitely about what you yourself put into it. While you need to push yourself during clinical years as well there are some rotations where you won't even be given that opportunity. Clinical rotations are where you begin to learn how to function like an actual doc, they are imperative to succeeding on audition rotations and in turn getting a residency spot. The quality of rotations offered should be considered heavily when considering which school to attend regardless of MD or DO.

Survivor DO

As someone who just went through the application process, this sounds good but is more difficult than one might expect. Even at respectable and well-established schools like CCOM, rotations are not completely set in stone and sites and preceptors can vary from year to year and even within a class. It's thus difficult to use rotation quality as a major factor in making a decision about which school to attend.

 

[felix2929]

As someone who just went through the application process, this sounds good but is more difficult than one might expect. Even at respectable and well-established schools like CCOM, rotations are not completely set in stone and sites and preceptors can vary from year to year and even within a class. It's thus difficult to use rotation quality as a major factor in making a decision about which school to attend.

word

 

[gmcguitar4]

As someone who just went through the application process, this sounds good but is more difficult than one might expect. Even at respectable and well-established schools like CCOM, rotations are not completely set in stone and sites and preceptors can vary from year to year and even within a class. It's thus difficult to use rotation quality as a major factor in making a decision about which school to attend.

They do vary but many schools have their main sites that are usually guaranteed. It definitely should be a major factor. Many schools try to glorify their curriculum for the first 2 years and display the amazing study spaces or the cafeteria in the school. Some of that stuff is nice but I really do not think they are the most important in my opinion. If you are looking at the long-term, rotation sites are def worth considering.

On all of my interviews, except NOVA, schools are very hesitant to answer questions about the rotation sites or just give some general answer about what they are doing to make rotations better.

 

[PTPoeny]

One of our best local sites (Lankenau) from what I last heard, does not let you modify the chart, meaning you do not document your encounters unless you write them down and toss them at the end of the day.

This is hospital policy, not school policy.

I did 2 rotations at Lehigh Valley (Arguably one of the best hospital systems outside Pittsburgh and Philadelphia) which did the same thing. We were not allowed to modify the chart and thus our outpatient notes were not used.

I know this is really late but...

Students only aren't allowed to modify the electronic chart. Surgery and OB still use entirely paper charts so the student H&Ps and notes are part of the chart. Also the EMR allows residents to be logged in multiple computers at once so I did a lot of documenting that way and the resident would just read over everything before they signed it.

But still frustrating. EMRs can be made to include students as I've rotated at plenty of places that provided for student note writing and ordering.

Geisinger and Hershey would both argue very loudly with you about Lehigh Valley

 

[Bacchus]

I know this is really late but...

Students only aren't allowed to modify the electronic chart. Surgery and OB still use entirely paper charts so the student H&Ps and notes are part of the chart. Also the EMR allows residents to be logged in multiple computers at once so I did a lot of documenting that way and the resident would just read over everything before they signed it.

But still frustrating. EMRs can be made to include students as I've rotated at plenty of places that provided for student note writing and ordering.

Geisinger and Hershey would both argue very loudly with you about Lehigh Valley

Haha. I'm not training at Lehigh next year so say what you want.