DO Students doing away rotations at ACGME programs

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UAbio9301

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Have you ever come across a program that charges a ridiculous fee to Osteopathic/IMG students that aren't in the respective state?

I just saw a program I was really interested in, and to do a 4 week rotation there I would have to pay them $3200 dollars. How is this not blatant discrimination? I would be more understanding if this were a more widespread notion, but I only saw this at ONE program doing extensive research.

If anyone else has come across this, please comment.

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Have you ever come across a program that charges a ridiculous fee to Osteopathic/IMG students that aren't in the respective state?

I just saw a program I was really interested in, and to do a 4 week rotation there I would have to pay them $3200 dollars. How is this not blatant discrimination? I would be more understanding if this were a more widespread notion, but I only saw this at ONE program doing extensive research.

If anyone else has come across this, please comment.

Yes. I believe UColorado had something like that if a DO wanted to do an externship/Sub-I there.
 
Have you ever come across a program that charges a ridiculous fee to Osteopathic/IMG students that aren't in the respective state?

I just saw a program I was really interested in, and to do a 4 week rotation there I would have to pay them $3200 dollars. How is this not blatant discrimination? I would be more understanding if this were a more widespread notion, but I only saw this at ONE program doing extensive research.

If anyone else has come across this, please comment.

Have some self respect and don't go to a program that makes you pay a fee for being a DO student
 
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Yes. I believe UColorado had something like that if a DO wanted to do an externship/Sub-I there.

They do. $4000 for non-residents. It's 75% off for a few primary care specialty options... but that doesn't make it cheap.

Have some self respect and don't go to a program that makes you pay a fee for being a DO student

Agreed. I can tolerate the application fees in the $100 range, but if they want $4000 I'm going to assume they're "not just that into" us. Why spend four weeks rotating at a place not likely to look at you for interviews?
 
I'm guessing this nonsense will all be void come the merger? Squeezing in a couple last-minute bucks.
 
Would this apply to non-residents in general(MD/DO) or just DO non-resident--- because i'd imagine RVUCOM-Colorado would be exempted in this situation--right??

Nope! If you are a DO non-resident it's 4K, resident is 2K.

(http://www.ucdenver.edu/academics/c...airs/extern/Documents/OsteoAdditionalInfo.pdf)
I'm guessing this nonsense will all be void come the merger? Squeezing in a couple last-minute bucks.

I don't think the merger is going to change this at all. It's pretty blatant that they do not want them rotating into competitive departments within their campus.
 
Would this apply to non-residents in general(MD/DO) or just DO non-resident--- because i'd imagine RVUCOM-Colorado would be exempted in this situation--right??
Yeah, RVU students are exempt from this. There was an amendment from the Colorado Medical Society that approved the measure last year.
 
Nope! If you are a DO non-resident it's 4K, resident is 2K.

(http://www.ucdenver.edu/academics/c...airs/extern/Documents/OsteoAdditionalInfo.pdf)


I don't think the merger is going to change this at all. It's pretty blatant that they do not want them rotating into competitive departments within their campus.

Yeah, RVU students are exempt from this. There was an amendment from the Colorado Medical Society that approved the measure last year.

Yeah I heard from RVUCOM(interview day) that they had people rotate through UColorado but no mention of fee. I'm curious if this will open the doors to those in RVUCOM-Utah branch....to my understanding both RVUCOM-Colorado and RVUCOM-Utah intend to stop the "mothership" phenomenon and pool all resources(rotation access included) together for both respective school branches. This could in turn lead to the opening of these wards to more students(Utah and Colorado DO students)
 
Yet they interview DOs for some specialties.

A very odd conundrum that's for sure.
Yeah I heard from RVUCOM(interview day) that they had people rotate through UColorado but no mention of fee. I'm curious if this will open the doors to those in RVUCOM-Utah branch....to my understanding both RVUCOM-Colorado and RVUCOM-Utah intend to stop the "mothership" phenomenon and pool all resources(rotation access included) together for both respective school branches. This could in turn lead to the opening of these wards to more students(Utah and Colorado DO students)

Hmm that would be interesting to see if RVUCOM will do something of the sort to help with the whole pay to rotate thing.
 
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The University of Florida Gainesville charges 3200 for EM rotation for out of state DO's but UF Jacksonville does not. That's a head-scratcher.
 
Is it common for away rotations to charge a fee, and that these fees are exorbitant? Or is charging a fee odd of itself? Just curious.
 
Is it common for away rotations to charge a fee, and that these fees are exorbitant? Or is charging a fee odd of itself? Just curious.

Yes it's common to charge a fee, but not common to charge only to DO's and not common for them to be more than a couple hundred dollars.
 
If you are competitive for the program and you would really like to go I say pay it. Overall compared to all that has been paid for education its not the worst ( stings though). Would also show you arent playing around and the program is important to you. That has to be worth something to PDs trying to screen out outsiders right?


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How do you guys pay the fee associated with away rotations?

Can you request a higher loan? Or do you just go for max COA and work with what you got?
 
You guys should try to petition your school to reimburse the costs of these away rotations. You are paying your med school for clinical rotations, and if you aren't using their rotations for those weeks, they don't really have any reasonable argument for why they wouldn't at least reimburse part of the cost.

Even my money hungry, for-profit DeVry-owned Caribbean medical school reimbursed us the cost for non-affiliated rotations, with no limit on the number of such rotations you could do.
 
You guys should try to petition your school to reimburse the costs of these away rotations. You are paying your med school for clinical rotations, and if you aren't using their rotations for those weeks, they don't really have any reasonable argument for why they wouldn't at least reimburse part of the cost.

Even my money hungry, for-profit DeVry-owned Caribbean medical school reimbursed us the cost for non-affiliated rotations, with no limit on the number of such rotations you could do.

4th year at my school we have to set up everything and we have to pay for everything out of pocket. They keep our tuition.


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What do they charge you for?
The tuition you pay during the clinical years is in exchange for the clinical rotations the medical school provides for you. Your post makes it sound like your school doesn't provide any 4th year rotations. If that's the case, then that is quite the racket.

Do they give you a list of available rotations at various sites for 4th year, but it's up to you to actually sign up for them? If that's the case it's ok, but that's not how I read your previous post.
 
The tuition you pay during the clinical years is in exchange for the clinical rotations the medical school provides for you. Your post makes it sound like your school doesn't provide any 4th year rotations. If that's the case, then that is quite the racket.

Do they give you a list of available rotations at various sites for 4th year, but it's up to you to actually sign up for them? If that's the case it's ok, but that's not how I read your previous post.

How I understand it, Its more like they approve and allow. We have to set up all of our rotations through VSAS. They only set up 3rd year rotations for us. I am not sure if we get much more support than that. Most 4th years disappear until graduation I just figured it was a DO thing.


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Is it common for away rotations to charge a fee, and that these fees are exorbitant? Or is charging a fee odd of itself? Just curious.

Some places are free while others charge ~$120 or something.

I don't think I've seen a rotation above $120 except for the one mentioned above.
 
@the argus I believe many DO schools do offer reimbursements. I know mine does. Like you said they aren't paying their preceptors anymore so there is no reason as to why not and seeing as my school pays $1000 per student per month they will actually save money paying audition reimbursements at many places.
 
WorldChanger,

Your school is screwing you guys over. My school offers reimbursement for all auditions. I just need to provide receipts.
 
@WorldChanger36 I sense your pessimism on the thread recently against DOs and specialties stems with the frustration with your school
 
Yet they interview DOs for some specialties.

Yeah, this is actually pretty common. I recently interviewed at a program that doesn't let DOs rotate in the whole system period. That program regularly takes DOs. It's a university wide policy, not a real program specific thing.

Heck, the big University system near me doesn't let students from my school rotate there, and I've heard several PDs complain about it saying that things were much better for them before, and that they're working to change the policy now. University wide policies regularly don't take into account what's good for individual programs.
 
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What exactly are they charging you for then? Sounds like quite the racket.

It is quite the racket. I'll chime in. I go to a DO school, and I am paying over 55K just in tuition (normal tuition was 45K) for my two months of summer and the entire fourth year. I am not doing any of rotations that are affiliated with my school, although a lot of these rotations are often full with 3rd year students and some of my fourth year classmates have had trouble finding rotations through something similar to a "lottery" process.

I have set up all of my rotations on my own, my school (clinical coordinator) just had to approve them. So, I did all of the leg work through VSAS or through contacting a preceptor/institution. My school basically got 55K to approve the rotation, so yes, it is quite the racket. It is ALLLLLL ABOUT THE $$$$. The school is paying the preceptors that are affiliated with my institution nothing, and obviously not paying any preceptor/institution not affiliated with my school.

And if there was every any doubt that it was about anything besides money and a piece of paper at graduation....why do you think most DO schools (mine at least) get 1 month of "vacation" to study for boards, interview, and take "vacation" (HA). Because they can't charge you for tuition if you are on vacation, which is why they keep you in school for as long as they can. My last day of rotations is 5 days before graduation, whereas every single MD student that I met during my away rotations got 3-4 months off and could enjoy themselves and actually go on a vacation and decompress before residency. Yeah, let that sink in.

If you end up using 2 weeks (ha) to study for boards, which you'll need more time than that if you're preparing to take Step 2, which you should take, that leaves you with 2 weeks of "vacation" time for interviews. For this reason, many students try to schedule rotations with preceptors who are understanding and let you willingly miss clinic/work to go interview since your CAREER depends on it. If you don't have a preceptor like that, too bad, no vacation for you. And, let me point out that this isn't about vacation. It is about having a feasible amount of time to do things that are vital to your success...studying for boards and going on interviews. And, if the school finds out that you did this, actively skipped a rotation to go on interviews just to avoid taking "vacation" time, well then they will grill you on professionalism.

It is quite the ponzi scheme, hence why DO schools are popping up left and right, as mentioned on the DO threads, despite unanimous consensus from the medical community that there needs to be a stop to this due to lack of GME funding and a stagnant number of residency spots.

To the undergraduate students reading this, who are interested in becoming doctors, take a good hard look at MD programs and if you don't get in reapply. The road for DO students is becoming exponentially more difficult, expensive, and painful. I encourage all prospective students to take a good hard look at these threads, talk to people at the schools you are applying to and ask for their honest opinion, you'll know who is being truthful and who is sugar coating it.
 
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@the argus I believe many DO schools do offer reimbursements. I know mine does. Like you said they aren't paying their preceptors anymore so there is no reason as to why not and seeing as my school pays $1000 per student per month they will actually save money paying audition reimbursements at many places.

Hey, @ortnakas is this the case at LECOM?
 
Have to admit I don't totally understand the situation you quoted, but no I don't think so.

Sorry, as in if a student wants to do a rotation that requires a fee say $250 does LECOM reimburse that student afterwards (I guess I didn't really need to quote that reply lol)?
 
Don't you guys/gals have to sign up for VSAS if you want to some of your rotations outside of your home institutions? I don't understand the whole thing about paying an institution for an away rotation...
 
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Don't you guys/gals have to sign up for VSAS if you wan't to some of your rotations outside of your home institutions? I don't understand the whole thing about paying an institution for an away rotation...

Some rotations don't charge anything through VSAS. I was able to do several away rotations without paying a fee. However, rotations at certain institutions require fees, ranging anywhere from $750-$4,000. This is because the institution that you are trying to rotate at doesn't have a affiliation agreement with your school.

But yes, it is possible to do away rotations through VSAS without paying a fee.
 
Some rotations don't charge anything through VSAS. I was able to do several away rotations without paying a fee. However, rotations at certain institutions require fees, ranging anywhere from $750-$4,000. This is because the institution that you are trying to rotate at doesn't have a affiliation agreement with your school.

But yes, it is possible to do away rotations through VSAS without paying a fee.
Not to mention not all programs offer rotations through VSAS. I set up some rotations at ACGME residency programs through those programs' own in house applications.
 
@the argus I believe many DO schools do offer reimbursements. I know mine does. Like you said they aren't paying their preceptors anymore so there is no reason as to why not and seeing as my school pays $1000 per student per month they will actually save money paying audition reimbursements at many places.
for 4th year only, right? do you have to give them receipts that show what you spent the 1000 on?
 
for 4th year only, right? do you have to give them receipts that show what you spent the 1000 on?

Don't know the logistics just know it's a thing from talking to a current 4th year and he's only for 4th year during audition season
 
It is quite the racket. I'll chime in. I go to a DO school, and I am paying over 55K just in tuition (normal tuition was 45K) for my two months of summer and the entire fourth year. I am not doing any of rotations that are affiliated with my school, although a lot of these rotations are often full with 3rd year students and some of my fourth year classmates have had trouble finding rotations through something similar to a "lottery" process.

I have set up all of my rotations on my own, my school (clinical coordinator) just had to approve them. So, I did all of the leg work through VSAS or through contacting a preceptor/institution. My school basically got 55K to approve the rotation, so yes, it is quite the racket. It is ALLLLLL ABOUT THE $$$$. The school is paying the preceptors that are affiliated with my institution nothing, and obviously not paying any preceptor/institution not affiliated with my school.

And if there was every any doubt that it was about anything besides money and a piece of paper at graduation....why do you think most DO schools (mine at least) get 1 month of "vacation" to study for boards, interview, and take "vacation" (HA). Because they can't charge you for tuition if you are on vacation, which is why they keep you in school for as long as they can. My last day of rotations is 5 days before graduation, whereas every single MD student that I met during my away rotations got 3-4 months off and could enjoy themselves and actually go on a vacation and decompress before residency. Yeah, let that sink in.

If you end up using 2 weeks (ha) to study for boards, which you'll need more time than that if you're preparing to take Step 2, which you should take, that leaves you with 2 weeks of "vacation" time for interviews. For this reason, many students try to schedule rotations with preceptors who are understanding and let you willingly miss clinic/work to go interview since your CAREER depends on it. If you don't have a preceptor like that, too bad, no vacation for you. And, let me point out that this isn't about vacation. It is about having a feasible amount of time to do things that are vital to your success...studying for boards and going on interviews. And, if the school finds out that you did this, actively skipped a rotation to go on rotations just to avoid taking "vacation" time, well then they will grill you on professionalism.

It is quite the ponzi scheme, hence why DO schools are popping up left and right, as mentioned on the DO threads, despite unanimous consensus from the medical community that there needs to be a stop to this due to lack of GME funding and a stagnant number of residency spots.

To the undergraduate students reading this, who are interested in becoming doctors, take a good hard look at MD programs and if you don't get in reapply. The road for DO students is becoming exponentially more difficult, expensive, and painful. I encourage all prospective students to take a good hard look at these threads, talk to people at the schools you are applying to and ask for their honest opinion, you'll know who is being truthful and who is sugar coating it.

This isn't a "bad apple." This is a realist. You can't spell don't without DO. I cannot wait for somebody to put the hammer down. Where is my tuition going? Where is this person's tuition going?
 
Rotations sites have to pay faculty academic time. Some house students. Many feed them. This isn't free. Many hospitals just eat the cost as the cost for doing business and recruiting, some don't. When you are a University based hospital like most allopathic schools, the tuition you pay helps pay for all those costs to run clinical rotations. But many (not all) DO schools take the funding and then you go off and rotate at places and they don't pay a dime to the hospital. Thats not your fault, and IMO the students shouldn't be punished or expected to pay a fortune when they already are. But the schools should be held accountable if they aren't willing to reimburse sites. What are people paying tuition in years 3 and 4 for if some of these schools send students unfunded to clinical sites?
 
General question for all of you experienced students on this thread: how long does it take to set up/apply for all of the away rotations you want to do in your fourth year? And when (in the timeline of medical school) do you apply for said rotations?
 
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