DO vs PA ?

[darklabel]

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You are still young. Go for the DO route. Get some good clinical experience like ER Scribing. Your gpa is a bit low, so def. rock the MCAT. DO is the way to go.

I work with alot of PAs and NPs, and they all say, that if they could change one thing, it would be to become a doctor.

Classic case of "grass is always greener". PAs and DNPs will always say go MD/DO because of autonomy, income, etc etc while physicians will always say how you should go PA/DNP because of less schooling, job security, good hours vs income, less risks etc etc.

OP, don't listen to anyone saying you should go DO or PA. It is ultimately up to you. Learn about the 2 professions before committing to anything. Your GPA is a little low, but you'll definitely be able to get somewhere with a decent MCAT (You don't need a 30+ just to get in somewhere, but a 30+ will open many doors to favorable DO schools, especially based on location, rotations to hospitals in your area that you'd like to work in etc etc)

Don't think just because you're questioning it, it means you're not fit to be a doctor. You'll read many times about people who just weren't ready or had other careers before making the switch later in life. Also don't see medical school training as a waste of 4 years, rather it is 4 years of educating yourself to save people and give yourself the education of a lifetime.

And in my opinion that you can ignore, I think you'll have less regrets if you went the DO route instead of the PA route. If you were a practicing doctor, I can't see how you'll regret your decision if you're happy with medicine as opposed to being a PA, you may not like the fact you are just under being a physician and may decide later to do a bridge program and regret not doing it earlier.

Just my .02

 

[MedPR]

Nope.

Otherwise, janitors, secretaries, social workers, etc, would all be clinical care providers.

Being in a clinical care area and doing direct patient care is clinical.

As I had linked in my previous post: http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/clinical see definition usage a.

Clinical experience isn't the same as "clinical care provider."

Yup.

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[Columbia09]

To the OP, how did you go about getting the hundreds or even thousands of hours of health care experience needed to be a PA? And what schools did you apply to/how many hours did they require?

 

[racerwad]

Per your own link: clinical = direct observation of the patient. There is a difference between clinical experience and providing clinical care.

Again, by the definition you provided, scribes certainly get a lot of clinical experience.

HA!

Please, you should know that clinical experience implies providing care. Otherwise, why wouldn't we (as pre-meds) just stuck with volunteering and shadowing? "Direct observation" means nothing. Why should we bother doing stuff as 3rd and 4th year medical students? Wouldn't just directly observing be good enough to develop our clinical judgement skills?

Anyhow, I'm willing to accept that I may be wrong about the scope of practice that scribes have in various EDs. But, I don't think that any doc (or anyone else with legit "clinical experience") would say that simply observing a patient, however directly, counts as clinical experience.

 

[MedPR]

HA!

Please, you should know that clinical experience implies providing care. Otherwise, why wouldn't we (as pre-meds) just stuck with volunteering and shadowing? "Direct observation" means nothing. Why should we bother doing stuff as 3rd and 4th year medical students? Wouldn't just directly observing be good enough to develop our clinical judgement skills?

Anyhow, I'm willing to accept that I may be wrong about the scope of practice that scribes have in various EDs. But, I don't think that any doc (or anyone else with legit "clinical experience") would say that simply observing a patient, however directly, counts as clinical experience.

LizzyM the adcom does. Good enough for me.

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[oms2]

let's put this to bed.
scribe programs are considered clinical experience.
e.g.
http://utnews.utoledo.edu/index.php...n-early-clinical-experience-assist-physicians
Medical student scribes gain early clinical experience, assist physicians
By Meghan Cunningham : March 10th, 2011
"The Scribe Program is a unique opportunity for our first- and second-year medical students to gain clinical experience that is not offered at other institutions," said Dr. Jeffrey P. Gold, chancellor, executive vice president for biosciences and health affairs, and dean of the College of Medicine and Life Sciences. "The education fostered by these students working alongside our University physicians will strengthen not only their medical knowledge and clinical decision making, but patient interaction and bedside manner as well. It allows for a firsthand view of a broad spectrum of clinical medicine."

 

[MedPR]

let's put this to bed.
scribe programs are considered clinical.
e.g.
http://utnews.utoledo.edu/index.php...n-early-clinical-experience-assist-physicians
"The Scribe Program is a unique opportunity for our first- and second-year medical students to gain clinical experience that is not offered at other institutions," said Dr. Jeffrey P. Gold, chancellor, executive vice president for biosciences and health affairs, and dean of the College of Medicine and Life Sciences. "The education fostered by these students working alongside our University physicians will strengthen not only their medical knowledge and clinical decision making, but patient interaction and bedside manner as well. It allows for a firsthand view of a broad spectrum of clinical medicine."

We are talking about scribing as an undergraduate.

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[EarthtoneJon]

Here are my reservations about Med school:
1. I will devolve into a miserable lifeless zombie for 8 years and wish I had time to enjoy my 20's as I would as a PA

I understand your reservation, but you can't think of it this way. Life is about the journey. I remember people telling me to "major in something else" or "persue something else" in college if I wanted to "have fun." Looking back, they were wrong. I see college as mostly fun, occasional studying. Yeah, I studied for 2 hours per day, and I was in class for 4 hours per day...but I was awake for 16. That's a lot of hours to do whatever the heck I wanted.

Now people are telling me I'll "have no life" in medical school. I can't say for sure until I get there and get through it, but I have a feeling they're wrong.

College, a job, medical school, law school, joining the millitary- whatever- none of it involves putting yourself in a cryogenic freezer and sending you to the future. You will not miss out on your 20s. You will wake up every day, meet new people, face new challenges, and have time to yourself. If it were literally all work and no play, nobody would do it. This is what I'm telling myself, anyway. I promised myself that I would have a blast in medical school, in whatever ways my schedule allows, and I'll be damned if I don't do it. What was that saying? Grab life by the horns?

 

[racerwad]

We are talking about scribing as an undergraduate.

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I am talking about scribing at any time.

LizzyM's opinion is valuable but since she isn't a clinician, I'm going to disagree with her opinion on this point. Well, I guess she could be/have been a clinician along with being an ADCOM but...I'd still disagree with her if that were the case, so I guess that point is moot.

Anyhow, you'll see the distinction down the road, I hope. We'll just agree to disagree for now.

I do think that they (scribes) are one of the keys to returning some efficiency to the ED and their value is substantial.

 

[Mbeas]

.

 

[MedPR]

I am talking about scribing at any time.

LizzyM's opinion is valuable but since she isn't a clinician, I'm going to disagree with her opinion on this point. Well, I guess she could be/have been a clinician along with being an ADCOM but...I'd still disagree with her if that were the case, so I guess that point is moot.

Anyhow, you'll see the distinction down the road, I hope. We'll just agree to disagree for now.

I do think that they (scribes) are one of the keys to returning some efficiency to the ED and their value is substantial.

Then only reason this debate is relevant is because adcoms want to see clinical experience. If an adcom says it's clinical, then for our purposes as premeds it is clinical

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[racerwad]

Except that it doesn't.

Just out of curiosity, what would you consider volunteering in an emergency room? Is that a "non-clinical experience"?...I think we can both agree that you learn better by actually practicing a technique rather than just watching something do the technique. That's not what the debate is about.

I would argue that when pre-meds say that they have "clinical experience" they are trying to imply that there was more to that "experience" than just watching. In the same way, I believe that when people read "clinical experience," they are assuming that this person has had some direct, hands-on, impact on outcome kind of experience with patients. That's certainly how I see it.

Volunteering in the ED (which I have done) is definitely non-clinical experience. It's job-shadowing.

If we choose to define clinical experience as "direct observation" but not actual patient care, I think that devalues the term. As you said, there is something different between watching and doing. For me, my clinical experience involved me starting IVs, intubating, writing charts, etc and that made a difference in how I viewed things.

Personally, whenever I talk to pre-meds, I will always tell them that clinical experience means working with patients directly, not being a scribe (although that has a different kind of value that is just as good - exposure to a physician's decision making process).

It's still my opinion that clinicians will define "clinical experience" differently than pre-meds (and apparently some ADCOMs) do. I'm aware that part of the job of the pre-med is to do the ******ed "dance of impressiveness" for admissions. I just think that we're setting the bar too low by saying that clinical experience is simply watching other people do work. Weak.

 

[MedPR]

I would argue that when pre-meds say that they have "clinical experience" they are trying to imply that there was more to that "experience" than just watching. In the same way, I believe that when people read "clinical experience," they are assuming that this person has had some direct, hands-on, impact on outcome kind of experience with patients. That's certainly how I see it.

Volunteering in the ED (which I have done) is definitely non-clinical experience. It's job-shadowing.

If we choose to define clinical experience as "direct observation" but not actual patient care, I think that devalues the term. As you said, there is something different between watching and doing. For me, my clinical experience involved me starting IVs, intubating, writing charts, etc and that made a difference in how I viewed things.

Personally, whenever I talk to pre-meds, I will always tell them that clinical experience means working with patients directly, not being a scribe (although that has a different kind of value that is just as good - exposure to a physician's decision making process).

It's still my opinion that clinicians will define "clinical experience" differently than pre-meds (and apparently some ADCOMs) do. I'm aware that part of the job of the pre-med is to do the ******ed "dance of impressiveness" for admissions. I just think that we're setting the bar too low by saying that clinical experience is simply watching other people do work. Weak.

That's great but the only definition that matters is the one determined by adcoms.

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[racerwad]

That's great but the only definition that matters is the one determined by adcoms.

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One day, you'll be a clinician, too.

 

[MedPR]

One day, you'll be a clinician, too.

Yes and at that time my opinion of "clinical experience" will be meaningless in the context of medical school applications unless I am an adcom member.

As premeds the only thing we need to worry about is how adcoms are viewing our application. If they think scribing is clinical, then (for application purposes) it is clinical. You're free to have your own opinion and subscribe to whatever beliefs you want, but in the application process the adcoms are the shepherds and we are the sheep.



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[DocVapor]

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/clinical

"Clinical experience" has anything to do with what goes on around patients. Direct observation counts. Just because someone isn't "doing something" or "treating the patient" doesn't mean they don't gain anything from watching, thinking, and discussing later. It doesn't even have to be related to treating the patient. Just obtaining information about how physician practices run, what makes them work, the relationships between physicians and their nurses/techs, etc. is highly valuable information for the individual thinking about going to medical school. It helps them get a better understanding (still a long way from being a complete understanding) of what being a physician is. If they still want to go to medical school, then that's important.

Starting IV's, pushing drugs, working codes, writing charts is great clinical experience. But if you go through all that to learn how to treat a patient beforehand and come out with no feel for all of the other intangibles, you are way too focused. Med school will reteach all of that to you. To expect individuals to have to learn all of that (maybe poorly) before medical school would be redundant and a waste of a lot of people's time. Widen your eyes while you still can.

 

[racerwad]

Yes and at that time my opinion of "clinical experience" will be meaningless in the context of medical school applications unless I am an adcom member.

As premeds the only thing we need to worry about is how adcoms are viewing our application. If they think scribing is clinical, then (for application purposes) it is clinical. You're free to have your own opinion and subscribe to whatever beliefs you want, but in the application process the adcoms are the shepherds and we are the sheep.



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I've already mentioned before that we're going to have to agree to disagree. I understand your point about what adcoms want. I believe that position allows the bar to be lowered and won't actually help with your training.

 

[racerwad]

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/clinical

"Clinical experience" has anything to do with what goes on around patients. Direct observation counts. Just because someone isn't "doing something" or "treating the patient" doesn't mean they don't gain anything from watching, thinking, and discussing later. It doesn't even have to be related to treating the patient. Just obtaining information about how physician practices run, what makes them work, the relationships between physicians and their nurses/techs, etc. is highly valuable information for the individual thinking about going to medical school. It helps them get a better understanding (still a long way from being a complete understanding) of what being a physician is. If they still want to go to medical school, then that's important.

I dunno, sounds like just job shadowing to me I do agree that it is very valuable.

Starting IV's, pushing drugs, working codes, writing charts is great clinical experience. But if you go through all that to learn how to treat a patient beforehand and come out with no feel for all of the other intangibles, you are way too focused. Med school will reteach all of that to you. To expect individuals to have to learn all of that (maybe poorly) before medical school would be redundant and a waste of a lot of people's time. Widen your eyes while you still can.

I would never suggest that people go to those lengths (that was just my own experience and I have never told anyone to do it). Definitely time wasted for very little benefit overall, I agree. I just think that, all things being equal, being an ED tech is a better experience than an ED scribe. Obviously, being a scribe is easier and the route that most of you all have taken so it's going to be vigorously defended. That's cool. If it works for you, fine. I still have a problem with the idea that watching stuff is equivalent to doing stuff.

 

[DocVapor]

I still have a problem with the idea that watching stuff is equivalent to doing stuff.

As a medic I agree with you. The question comes down to semantics. I consider my experiences as "patient care experiences" or some terminology along those lines. They are merely a subset of experiences underneath the whole umbrella of "clinical experience."

 

[MedPR]

I've already mentioned before that we're going to have to agree to disagree. I understand your point about what adcoms want. I believe that position allows the bar to be lowered and won't actually help with your training.

Oh I agree that it's not useful. It's good to be in the environment, but extended amounts of time are unnecessary as a premed. It's just another hoop/check box.

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[racerwad]

As a medic I agree with you. The question comes down to semantics. I consider my experiences as "patient care experiences" or some terminology along those lines. They are merely a subset of experiences underneath the whole umbrella of "clinical experience."

Words are the problem. That's why I prefer to check TART changes to really understand where people are at. 👍

 

[DocVapor]

Words are the problem. That's why I prefer to check TART changes to really understand where people are at. 👍

+1. lol.

 

[Mbeas]

That's why I prefer to check TART changes to really understand where people are at. 👍

now you're speaking my language

 

[JGimpel]

This is a variation on the "DO vs. MD" and "if I go to a lowly DO school, can I still do X" threads that have been trolled to death. Let's move this to the Pre K-12 thread and be done with it.

:troll:

 

[hydrographer]

To the OP, how did you go about getting the hundreds or even thousands of hours of health care experience needed to be a PA? And what schools did you apply to/how many hours did they require?

I volunteered at an Ambulance Service as an EMT-aid after college. I accrued a little over 500 hours. I applied to Yale, USC, Bethel U, Barry U, Bay Path, Le Moyne, Stony Brook, Campbell. Some required 500, some required 200, some required none at all (Campbell required 1000 actually). Totally varies. I got into Barry, Bethel, and Bay Path. Denied from Yale and Le Moyne. Still Waiting to hear from the others.

 

[hydrographer]

Darklabel and Earthtonejon great posts! Thanks everyone else too.. this has helped a lot.

 

[GopherMD]

This is a variation on the "DO vs. MD" and "if I go to a lowly DO school, can I still do X" threads that have been trolled to death. Let's move this to the Pre K-12 thread and be done with it.

:troll:

Where have I seen this post before...

The OP has a legit question between choosing medical school or PA school

 

[hydrographer]

Yeah Jgimpel I don't know where you're coming from with that this thread has been great.

Btw, what the hell is an OP

 

[GopherMD]

Yeah Jgimpel I don't know where you're coming from with that this thread has been great.

Btw, what the hell is an OP

Original poster

 

[Digsbe]

This is a decision you have to make for yourself. I'm struggling with a similar one right now in deciding if I want to discontinue in pharmacy school and apply to medical school.

Also, if you do indeed chose to go the PA route and then decide to go to DO school I know that LECOM has an accelerated program for PA graduates where you can get your DO in 3 years. LECOM has been one of the main medical schools that I've been looking into myself.

 

[JGimpel]

Yeah Jgimpel I don't know where you're coming from with that this thread has been great.

Btw, what the hell is an OP

I think I know where you're coming from.

A PA and DO are different types of study and length of training, as much as the first few years may have in common. I have no problem with PAs helping out, but to put them up against a medical doctor's level of training is not how I would approach finding out more about their respective pros and cons. If no other DOs take issue with having their 7+ years of training compared with 3, I'll gladly concede this point.

Search button guys; RTFM and use the SEARCH button!

 

[hydrographer]

You obviously didn't read my original post ("OP") or any of other people's posts after. This isn't a dick measuring contest between DOs and PAs, it's to help decide which route I should pursue in light of my specific circumstance.

 

[JGimpel]

You obviously didn't read my original post ("OP") or any of other people's posts after. This isn't a dick measuring contest between DOs and PAs, it's to help decide which route I should pursue in light of my specific circumstance.

You've decided to look at being a PA and got into at least one school.

You've decided that life as a physician will involve much sacrifice and the potential of being a mindless zombie at some time or another. Doctors don't punch a timecard and you will have to take a cab home from being unable to drive yourself sometimes. Yes, you get that tired.

You're history of hundreds of hours as a scribe shows that you're adept at taking notes from and for doctors.

As a Captain with prior service you've shown the ability to take orders well.

In a matter of a few hours, you appear to be loosing you're temper with being called out on starting a thread with "DO vs. X." You and everyone else that's been around SDN for more than a few days knows exactly what you were doing. You will not make it through a 12 hour shift with that little patience and baiting people for a faster response will get you in trouble no matter where you go. The 8-5 shift most PAs get will suit you better.

You do not have a "circumstance," you have a good option that others would look at as an opportunity and my vote would be to take it.

 

[MedPR]

You've decided to look at being a PA and got into at least one school.

You've decided that life as a physician will involve much sacrifice and the potential of being a mindless zombie at some time or another. Doctors don't punch a timecard and you will have to take a cab home from being unable to drive yourself sometimes. Yes, you get that tired.

You're history of hundreds of hours as a scribe shows that you're adept at taking notes from and for doctors.

As a Captain with prior service you've shown the ability to take orders well.

In a matter of a few hours, you appear to be loosing you're temper with being called out on starting a thread with "DO vs. X." You and everyone else that's been around SDN for more than a few days knows exactly what you were doing. You will not make it through a 12 hour shift with that little patience and baiting people for a faster response will get you in trouble no matter where you go. The 8-5 shift most PAs get will suit you better.

You do not have a "circumstance," you have a good option that others would look at as an opportunity and my vote would be to take it.

👍:beer:

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[hydrographer]

First you call this a Pre K-12 thread and now you're saying because I have a temper, no patience, and take orders well I should become a PA as opposed to a doctor? Way to be constructive buddy. I found this site literally the day before I posted this question so no I guess I don't know "exactly what I am doing". I guess I'm not as hip to the rules of medical blogging.

I did get into PA school. Yes, that is a great option that I am very grateful of. I also have the opportunity to apply to and potentially get into DO school. That is also a great option. My original post was an attempt to see what people with similar experiences thoughts were on the matter, not to start an argument over each field's level of training.

 

[Temperature101]

deleted....

 

[Temperature101]

DO is the better option since you are young...I have worked with a lot of PAs and almost all of them love their job but a good majority of them regretted that they did not go to med school...There is an urban myth in SDN that almost all doctors work 60+hrs/wk...I think this is overblown. I know a lot of primary care docs who work 40-45 hrs but they dont make a lot of money...Most of them say they are happy making 140-150k and have the time to spend with their families.

 

[GypsyHummus]

My two cents:

I very good friend of mine is in a PA program and she is relatively young, (21ish) and when I asked her why she chose to go to PA school as opposed to med, she just told me she didnt want to spend all that time in school. I think that medical school is a very taxing process.

Hit up this video, it helped me with making my decision: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Znh9lQ9mIVg at 13mins, she dives into the main difference.

 

[darklabel]

DO is the better option since you are young...I have worked with a lot of PAs and almost all of them love their job but a good majority of them regretted that they did not go to med school...There is an urban myth in SDN that almost all doctors work 60+hrs/wk...I think this is overblown. I know a lot of primary care docs who work 40-45 hrs but they dont make a lot of money...Most of them say they are happy making 140-150k and have the time to spend with their families.

Like you I don't listen to SDNer's expectations, most here think they deserve 325k+ and anything below 200k a year is barely above the poverty line. Theres a reason most doctors don't come to these forums.

 

[Skeeks]

I think the difference is in clinical exposure, and clinical experience. I agree with both of you to an extent. clinical experience has to do with providing care yourself (my premed advisor tells us to get clinical experience if we can in areas such as being a CNA, which I have done, or by doing phlebotomy ect.). She also tells us that clinical EXPOSURE is essential to anyone applying to med school, this includes jobs not directly involved in patient care but where you dal with people in clinical settings and doctor shadowing. That is how I would define your experience, by stating whether it is clinical exposure or experience. Exposure is essential, experience is a definite bonus, but not necessarily required.

 

[GUH]

DO is the better option since you are young...I have worked with a lot of PAs and almost all of them love their job but a good majority of them regretted that they did not go to med school...There is an urban myth in SDN that almost all doctors work 60+hrs/wk...I think this is overblown. I know a lot of primary care docs who work 40-45 hrs but they dont make a lot of money...Most of them say they are happy making 140-150k and have the time to spend with their families.

Yup.
The family doc I shadowed usually just works mornings Monday through Thursday and enjoys his lifestyle, which includes supporting (AND SPENDING TIME WITH) his family.

 

[MedPR]

Yup.
The family doc I shadowed usually just works mornings Monday through Thursday and enjoys his lifestyle, which includes supporting (AND SPENDING TIME WITH) his family.

Can't imagine he makes much working half days 4 days per week.. Unless he is stacking patients on top of one another.

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[Temperature101]

Can't imagine he makes much working half days 4 days per week.. Unless he is stacking patients on top of one another.

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150k is ok for most people or at least for me...This is like 8k/month take home pay. Even you pay 2k/month for student loan, you still have 6k/month to pay you bills.

 

[MedPR]

150k is ok for most people or at least for me...This is like 8k/month take home pay. Even you pay 2k/month for student loan, you still have 6k/month to pay you bills.

I dont think FM makes 150k working part time. If they did, then the median pay for that specialty would be much higher.. No FM is making 150k working 16 hours per week. If they were then 40/wk FM would be making $375k

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[kinokoboy]

150k is ok for most people or at least for me...This is like 8k/month take home pay. Even you pay 2k/month for student loan, you still have 6k/month to pay you bills.

Don't forget taxes!!!

 

[Temperature101]

I dont think FM makes 150k working part time. If they did, then the median pay for that specialty would be much higher.. No FM is making 150k working 16 hours per week. If they were then 40/wk FM would be making $375k

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I meant 150k for 40-45hrs/wk

 

[MedPR]

I meant 150k for 40-45hrs/wk

I see. Well I'm pretty sure $150k gross ends up being less than $3k disposable after income tax,malpractice insurance, and loan payments (not to mention car payment, rent, utilities, health insurance, food, gas, etc).

 

[Jnet389]

I see. Well I'm pretty sure $150k gross ends up being less than $3k disposable after income tax,malpractice insurance, and loan payments (not to mention car payment, rent, utilities, health insurance, food, gas, etc).

No. My wife is an elementary school teacher and she takes home $3k a month.

 

[GUH]

I see. Well I'm pretty sure $150k gross ends up being less than $3k disposable after income tax,malpractice insurance, and loan payments (not to mention car payment, rent, utilities, health insurance, food, gas, etc).

I don't believe this guy still has any med school debt.
Now for full disclosure, it's possible that earlier in his career he was working more hours than he does currently. But the point stands that you don't have to work a lot of hours to make ends meet as a physician.

 

[MedPR]

I don't believe this guy still has any med school debt.
Now for full disclosure, it's possible that earlier in his career he was working more hours than he does currently. But the point stands that you don't have to work a lot of hours to make ends meet as a physician.

Well yea. I can make ends meet now with a $23k salary. Two incomes of $70k easily supports a family and comfortable lifestyle in most cities.

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