DO vs PA ?

Get Your Med School Admissions Questions Answered!
This forum made possible through the generous support of SDN members, donors, and sponsors. Thank you.
hydrographer

hydrographer

Full Member
10+ Year Member
Joined
Dec 11, 2012
Messages
59
Reaction score
24
I'm in a bit of a pickle.

I'm 23, graduated college spring 2011, and have been applying to PA schools since May. I have gotten into three and have a deposit on one. Naturally, I have now decided to go into all out crisis mode about whether or not I will regret not at least attempting to get into medical school. SO, I am faced with the decision of either declining these PA schools and giving it a go with DO schools in the upcoming cycle OR going to PA school and hope that I will be content with my choice.

Here are my reservations about PA school:
1. frustration of not being in full control of my patient's care all of the time and not have their full faith or trust all of the time.
2. not having a large enough scope of practice or education to quench my thirst for the rest of my career.
3. making a half or a third of the money and having a capped salary.

Here are my reservations about Med school:
1. I will devolve into a miserable lifeless zombie for 8 years and wish I had time to enjoy my 20's as I would as a PA
2. that doctor salaries will go down and PA scope of practice will go way up thus further blurring the line btw doc and PA and further increasing my regret of bearing the long med school journey
***3. will not get into med school and will have completely wasted another year or two of my life......


Just to give you a feel for my relative competitiveness, or lack thereof.....

-Biology major
-3.26 GPA (3.58 in last 60 credits)
-3.19 sGPA
-A and B in Bio 1 and 2, A's in both physics, A's in both orgos, B's in both chems
-MCAT- plan to take it in the spring. what score would give me a decent chance at DO schools?

-650 hours as volunteer EMT-aid
-400 or 500 hours as Emergency room scribe by the spring
-Decent amount of random volunteering over the years
-Licensed USCG Captain Since age 18
-Captain of high school volleyball and college club basketball


So,

do I put off PA school to give DO a shot?

do I even have a shot at DO school?

What are your thoughts on the career outlook of PA vs Doc?

looking back, did you think med school was worth it while you were going through it?

can you have a life through med school and residency?


ANY thoughts on these matters are GREATLY appreciated!
Members don't see this ad.
 
hydrographer said:
I'm in a bit of a pickle.

I'm 23, graduated college spring 2011, and have been applying to PA schools since May. I have gotten into three and have a deposit on one. Naturally, I have now decided to go into all out crisis mode about whether or not I will regret not at least attempting to get into medical school. SO, I am faced with the decision of either declining these PA schools and giving it a go with DO schools in the upcoming cycle OR going to PA school and hope that I will be content with my choice.

Here are my reservations about PA school:
1. frustration of not being in full control of my patient's care all of the time and not have their full faith or trust all of the time.
2. not having a large enough scope of practice or education to quench my thirst for the rest of my career.
3. making a half or a third of the money and having a capped salary.

Here are my reservations about Med school:
1. I will devolve into a miserable lifeless zombie for 8 years and wish I had time to enjoy my 20's as I would as a PA
2. that doctor salaries will go down and PA scope of practice will go way up thus further blurring the line btw doc and PA and further increasing my regret of bearing the long med school journey
***3. will not get into med school and will have completely wasted another year or two of my life......


Just to give you a feel for my relative competitiveness, or lack thereof.....

-Biology major
-3.26 GPA (3.58 in last 60 credits)
-3.19 sGPA
-A and B in Bio 1 and 2, A's in both physics, A's in both orgos, B's in both chems
-MCAT- plan to take it in the spring. what score would give me a decent chance at DO schools?

-650 hours as volunteer EMT-aid
-400 or 500 hours as Emergency room scribe by the spring
-Decent amount of random volunteering over the years
-Licensed USCG Captain Since age 18
-Captain of high school volleyball and college club basketball


So,

do I put off PA school to give DO a shot?

do I even have a shot at DO school?

What are your thoughts on the career outlook of PA vs Doc?

looking back, did you think med school was worth it while you were going through it?

can you have a life through med school and residency?


ANY thoughts on these matters are GREATLY appreciated!
Click to expand...

Not all physicians' salaries will go down. The gap between family medicine and subspecialties will decrease. The scope of practice for PAs will most likely only increase in primary care. Honestly, I would take PA acceptance and go with it....unless you want to work in a specialty where you would have 100% control over your practice as a physician.

Your gpa is on the low end for DO schools. A 30+ is what I would think you would need on the MCAT to be competitive.
 
If you don't have that fire in your belly and the road seems too long and hard, go PA. There is nothing wrong with that. It's a great career.

If you really want to be a physician, you need to get your stats within range and give it your best shot. Your effort will be amply rewarded.
 
Members don't see this ad :)
mnhockeyfan said:
Not all physicians' salaries will go down. The gap between family medicine and subspecialties will decrease. The scope of practice for PAs will most likely only increase in primary care. Honestly, I would take PA acceptance and go with it....unless you want to work in a specialty where you would have 100% control over your practice as a physician.

Your gpa is on the low end for DO schools. A 30+ is what I would think you would need on the MCAT to be competitive.
Click to expand...

This.
 
Agreed with above. I have similar numbers and I can tell you that an MCAT around 30 will open a lot of doors to you. Aim for 30. With around a 30 you could be pretty certain of getting in somewhere DO, if you apply well.

As for the main question, if you are viewing the training process as a long dragging hell, maybe think about PA. Fire in the belly is required. PA is a very good career, and it's only getting better. Beware how competitive PA is getting though.
 
I've heard many PAs state that they love their jobs and it seems many people value the balance between the amount of time invested and the eventual autonomy and salary that results. For what it is worth, the PAs I've worked with seem to live comfortable lives and get to do so much faster than their MD/DO counterparts, who are still training while the PA has already begun to practice.

As for scope of practice, this seems to be variable to the institution you work in. When I was doing my clinical paramedic training I saw PAs that ran the major trauma room at a decently large trauma center. Yes, there was an attending physician and resident typically also assigned to the major trauma rooms, but the PA seemed to do many things on their own. I've seen them intubate, run cardiac arrests, etc. Many of them worked quite autonomously and basically stopped by to consult with the physician every few hours or when they required advice on a drug regimen or specific procedure. Some of them were trusted to the point where they were almost indistinguishable from physicians. I never met a physician that didn't value their contribution. Now, with that said, it did seem like they were perpetual residents. In fact, their scope often seemed to be identical to the more senior residents in the ED. This was a pretty collegial institution, so I don't really know if it would matter. Everyone got along.

I've also been the places where they're relegated to urgent care/rapid care sections of the ED. I think there is value in working in these types of environments, but I don't know if I could do it all of the time. In their defense, here too I've seen a good bit autonomy.

I think the biggest development in the physician assistant profession is really the same one as for MD/DO. I see the DNP degree as an interesting development. I know a lot of people loathe it here on SDN, but I have a healthy respect for a profession that has lobbied its way to greater and greater scopes of practice. I don't agree with all of it, but you have to admit that it took great marketing, lots of money, and coordinated effort to get the type of scope creep nurses have accomplished. I think this will lead to a doctorate war between both mid-level professions (PA vs NP) while physicians stand back and watch, probably helplessly. I've already seen and worked in hospitals that have a "preference" between the two mid-levels. Some hospitals seem to use NPs exclusively while others prefer the PA model. Nursing seems to be a well coordinated lobby, which should scare anyone with a brain and an understanding of how money flows in politics.

As for MD/DO, I think many specialties are changing. Most physicians will tell you that they don't have the complete autonomy they did 20 years ago. Between hospital administrators, billing requirements, and the constant march of evidence based practice, it's not as peachy cream as it used to be. Everyone has a boss, but now it is more in your face. Some of this is probably good (see evidence based practice), but some of it is probably just irritating. Every profession has its downsides, but I think few have the personal rewards that being a physician does.
 
I would go PA in fact it's my plan if I don't get into D.O school any way. PAs make a lot of money, some even more than doctors in some areas. But it all depends. Plus you don't have to get a 30 on the MCAT for D.O school that's more M.D. My opinion it should be a high 20 but nothing below a 24. But yes aim for that 30 because it WILL increase your chances
 
Columbia09 said:
I would go PA in fact it's my plan if I don't get into D.O school any way. PAs make a lot of money, some even more than doctors in some areas. But it all depends. Plus you don't have to get a 30 on the MCAT for D.O school that's more M.D. My opinion it should be a high 20 but nothing below a 24. But yes aim for that 30 because it WILL increase your chances
Click to expand...

With the OP's GPA, a 30+ is essentially needed to be successful at the better DO schools.
 
I agree that in your situation, you should go ahead to PA school. Your GPA is on the low end for PA and DO schools and it's quite a leap to expect you could get into DO school without knowing your MCAT yet.
23 is young enough to change your mind.
Keep in mind this is from a woman who was in PA school at 24 and will graduate DO school at 40.
 
I was in this same predicament a few years ago...and your choice all depends on what you 'like'.

As a Physician you are locked into a specialty. You can not change from surgery to internal med. As a PA you can move around every couple of years. You will not get board. Despite what people say as a doctor you will make more money but you will also have more debit and more over head. Not often are PAs included in a malpractice suit. PA school is shorter, but not all inclusive which is a problem for me. I personally want to know about the body in greater detail than PA school teaches.

Downsides

Autonomy depends on the Doc you work with and how much they trust you. In many hospitals, the docs can leave once all the patients are seen and can be reachable by pager. As a PA you HAVE TO BE THERE. You are generally a salaried employee and big healthcare abuses the mid-levels much more than the Physicians. In Primary care practice...many doctors put the PAs on call more...but some don't..it depends on the practice. It is a different type of employment contract, one that I personally could not live with. Money and quality of life differ very little between the two professions...in the beginning. For example...local hospital starts PAs out at 75k in various schedule nights/weekends it varies. They do give raises but generally if you work for 'big-medicine' you will limit your income. So after 27 months of school you start making 75k out the door and your friends are still in med-school. You have 80k in loans. Now after two years, you have made 150k...your friends are now residents and they are making around 48k plus free food, but have 250k in loans. Three more years go by and you have a salary of 100k. So roughly you have made 75+75 +75+85+100=410k. Your friends have finished Internal medicine residency and have been signed to a contract of...220k a year plus malpractice covered, only 84*12 hour shifts a year and 1 on-call a month. plus 100$ an hour for every hour you volunteer to work above your 84 contracted days (365 days a year) (BTW this is the local contract at my local hospital) So...two more years pass and you have made 610k total...your friends have made 440k plus an additional 20k for over time and the 142k made during residency...602k...2 more years...you have earned 810k and they have earned 1mil. Your friend has more debit but...no that much more.


O and if you are worried about your scores being acceptable for Med-school...I suggest you visit the underdog thread...many many people get in with 23M and 3.1/3.3
 
Canoedad said:
I was in this same predicament a few years ago...and your choice all depends on what you 'like'.

As a Physician you are locked into a specialty. You can not change from surgery to internal med. As a PA you can move around every couple of years. You will not get board. Despite what people say as a doctor you will make more money but you will also have more debit and more over head. Not often are PAs included in a malpractice suit. PA school is shorter, but not all inclusive which is a problem for me. I personally want to know about the body in greater detail than PA school teaches.

Downsides

Autonomy depends on the Doc you work with and how much they trust you. In many hospitals, the docs can leave once all the patients are seen and can be reachable by pager. As a PA you HAVE TO BE THERE. You are generally a salaried employee and big healthcare abuses the mid-levels much more than the Physicians. In Primary care practice...many doctors put the PAs on call more...but some don't..it depends on the practice. It is a different type of employment contract, one that I personally could not live with. Money and quality of life differ very little between the two professions...in the beginning. For example...local hospital starts PAs out at 75k in various schedule nights/weekends it varies. They do give raises but generally if you work for 'big-medicine' you will limit your income. So after 27 months of school you start making 75k out the door and your friends are still in med-school. You have 80k in loans. Now after two years, you have made 150k...your friends are now residents and they are making around 48k plus free food, but have 250k in loans. Three more years go by and you have a salary of 100k. So roughly you have made 75+75 +75+85+100=410k. Your friends have finished Internal medicine residency and have been signed to a contract of...220k a year plus malpractice covered, only 84*12 hour shifts a year and 1 on-call a month. plus 100$ an hour for every hour you volunteer to work above your 84 contracted days (365 days a year) (BTW this is the local contract at my local hospital) So...two more years pass and you have made 610k total...your friends have made 440k plus an additional 20k for over time and the 142k made during residency...602k...2 more years...you have earned 810k and they have earned 1mil. Your friend has more debit but...no that much more.


O and if you are worried about your scores being acceptable for Med-school...I suggest you visit the underdog thread...many many people get in with 23M and 3.1/3.3
Click to expand...

:confused:
 
Members don't see this ad :)
Canoedad said:
I was in this same predicament a few years ago...and your choice all depends on what you 'like'.

As a Physician you are locked into a specialty. You can not change from surgery to internal med. As a PA you can move around every couple of years. You will not get board. Despite what people say as a doctor you will make more money but you will also have more debit and more over head. Not often are PAs included in a malpractice suit. PA school is shorter, but not all inclusive which is a problem for me. I personally want to know about the body in greater detail than PA school teaches.

Downsides

Autonomy depends on the Doc you work with and how much they trust you. In many hospitals, the docs can leave once all the patients are seen and can be reachable by pager. As a PA you HAVE TO BE THERE. You are generally a salaried employee and big healthcare abuses the mid-levels much more than the Physicians. In Primary care practice...many doctors put the PAs on call more...but some don't..it depends on the practice. It is a different type of employment contract, one that I personally could not live with. Money and quality of life differ very little between the two professions...in the beginning. For example...local hospital starts PAs out at 75k in various schedule nights/weekends it varies. They do give raises but generally if you work for 'big-medicine' you will limit your income. So after 27 months of school you start making 75k out the door and your friends are still in med-school. You have 80k in loans. Now after two years, you have made 150k...your friends are now residents and they are making around 48k plus free food, but have 250k in loans. Three more years go by and you have a salary of 100k. So roughly you have made 75+75 +75+85+100=410k. Your friends have finished Internal medicine residency and have been signed to a contract of...220k a year plus malpractice covered, only 84*12 hour shifts a year and 1 on-call a month. plus 100$ an hour for every hour you volunteer to work above your 84 contracted days (365 days a year) (BTW this is the local contract at my local hospital) So...two more years pass and you have made 610k total...your friends have made 440k plus an additional 20k for over time and the 142k made during residency...602k...2 more years...you have earned 810k and they have earned 1mil. Your friend has more debit but...no that much more.
Click to expand...

I wish my debit was high. My debit card is currently crying. :mad:
 
MedPR said:
Why? Lots of people question if 8+ years of being poor and overworked is worth it.
Click to expand...

I think that being a physician is a calling, not just a job. It is something you are passionate about and are willing to work hard regardless of the compensation. If you have to question yourself and debate if its right for you, I dont think you should go into the field. This is just my opinion. Maybe I am wrong, but so far, the best doctors I've met were the once that said, I can't imagine doing anything else.
 
Dr.TurkandJD said:
I think that being a physician is a calling, not just a job. It is something you are passionate about and are willing to work hard regardless of the compensation. If you have to question yourself and debate if its right for you, I dont think you should go into the field. This is just my opinion. Maybe I am wrong, but so far, the best doctors I've met were the once that said, I can't imagine doing anything else.
Click to expand...

:rolleyes:
 
I completely agree! It is a calling and I can not imagine doing anything else with my life. For me...I thought I couldn't get into med school so I considered PA school...for a brief moment.

It just ergs me when people talk about the high debit vs time vs every other excuse. And then talk about being POOR! I know poor, I have lived poor and it is not 75k or 220k a year. Poor is wondering if the lights will be on next week or if you will have heat next month. Even low paid docs make 120k. So what if they have to work 80 hrs a week. For me it is better than swinging a hammer for 60 hours a week in the cold for 32k a year.
 
Thanks for the feed back everyone.

PrimaDonna, may I ask you what made you feel the urge to pursue a DO degree after you became a PA?

Dr. Turkland, I would be surprised if most aspiring physicians didn't question themselves and debate wether med school was right for them- its a pretty large commitment. And I'm not so much concerned with the lack of money through out the med school and residency years, more concerned over wether or not I will be over worked to the point of misery. And if someones calling is to clinically treat patients, it can be done the PA route as well.

I'm thinking I'll study my ass off all spring, take the MCATS in April, and if I really do a number on them I might consider declining these school and applying to DO and PA (again) schools simultaneously in June. Keeping this as an option might even get me into a better PA school, as I will have accrued many more patient care experience hours by then.
 
I had a 3.2 and a 24 MCAT. Apply med school if you want it, but it is a commitment.
 
You will get in if you apply next cycle, and while a 30+ obviously gives you max odds, I think your cycle will still be successful with something a bit lower.

Dr.TurkandJD said:
I think that being a physician is a calling, not just a job. It is something you are passionate about and are willing to work hard regardless of the compensation. If you have to question yourself and debate if its right for you, I dont think you should go into the field. This is just my opinion. Maybe I am wrong, but so far, the best doctors I've met were the once that said, I can't imagine doing anything else.
Click to expand...

A calling, sure, but one I didn't hear until two career changes later. Right now? I've never been more sure. Three, even two years ago? Not so much. I debated and explored plenty before deciding to apply. It's a calling, but you'd be smart to get informed and not just dive into something you may not be prepared to handle.
 
Can you defer your PA acceptance a year to give the DO cycle a shot?
 
coolingglasses said:
You will get in if you apply next cycle, and while a 30+ obviously gives you max odds, I think your cycle will still be successful with something a bit lower.



A calling, sure, but one I didn't hear until two career changes later. Right now? I've never been more sure. Three, even two years ago? Not so much. I debated and explored plenty before deciding to apply. It's a calling, but you'd be smart to get informed and not just dive into something you may not be prepared to handle.
Click to expand...

Bro, you were unsure you wanted to throw away your 20s just so you can be a physician? You're going to be a terrible doc. All the best ones are born with a stethoscope and reflex hammer in hand.
 
MedPR said:
Bro, you were unsure you wanted to throw away your 20s just so you can be a physician? You're going to be a terrible doc. All the best ones are born with a stethoscope and reflex hammer in hand.
Click to expand...

Well I was born with a stethoscope and reflex hammer FOR hands...

I kid I kid....








But seriously
 
MedPR said:
Bro, you were unsure you wanted to throw away your 20s just so you can be a physician? You're going to be a terrible doc. All the best ones are born with a stethoscope and reflex hammer in hand.
Click to expand...

Technically, I'd be throwing away my late 20s and 30s :laugh:
 
I'd go to PA school. You're already in and PA is a great career. Unless you have a burning desire and the monetary support to spend months studying for the MCAT then go through a ton of applications to schools which may or may not accept you I would stick with the PA program where you already have a spot.

DO pros - More money, more scope. Cons - training is really long, you are pretty much stuck in whatever field you choose.

PA pros - shorter, less debt, career flexibility, less stress since you have oversight. Cons - less money, smaller scope, less prestige in the eyes of SDN premeds.
 
hydrographer said:
The short answer: I wanted independence, deeper knowledge, to be the leader of the team, and to never have my license tethered to a supervising physician ever again.
I was willing to sacrifice 6-7 more years of my life for these rewards. I don't feel that I am losing any of these years at all--my life has been mostly work anyway. It sucks being poor again but in the end I will be happier.
I'm not a PA personality.
Feel free to read the last 7 yr of my post history to get the details :)
Click to expand...
 
People shouldn't worry so much about med school being hard and that you have to work your ass off as a doctor. EVERYONE pays their dues and works their ass off. I have a friend who was starting a couple of small companies. He works 7 days a week all day but he loves what he does. If he didn't love it so much, the businesses would probably have failed already. As a doctor, you are going to be busting your ass like anyone else does at the bottom of the ladder. Then once you are established you can decide how much you want to work depending on how much money you want to make..as a hospitalist at least. I know a doctor that works 15 shifts a month and makes about 150k a year. Plus does some teaching and research here and there. She travels all the time and does some pretty cool stuff on the side. She loves medicine and has lead a successful career as a result. If you go into this **** with the wrong reasons, you will definitely not be happy. Usually, these are the doctors that tell you do not go into medicine.
 
You are still young. Go for the DO route. Get some good clinical experience like ER Scribing. Your gpa is a bit low, so def. rock the MCAT. DO is the way to go.

I work with alot of PAs and NPs, and they all say, that if they could change one thing, it would be to become a doctor.
 
premed123467 said:
You are still young. Go for the DO route. Get some good clinical experience like ER Scribing. Your gpa is a bit low, so def. rock the MCAT. DO is the way to go.

I work with alot of PAs and NPs, and they all say, that if they could change one thing, it would be to become a doctor.
Click to expand...

Being an ED scribe is great experience, but it definitely isn't clinical.

If it's even a question between the two, go to medical school.
 
Just go the PA route. You already have on your mind that medicine makes you zombie. Personally, I look forward to the struggles. You can always join one of bridge PA to DO programs if you change your mind.

Sent from my SCH-R910 using SDN Mobile
 
^^just FYI, at this time there is just one PA-DO bridge (I'm in the first class) and no PA-MD bridges (not counting the offshore sketchy schools).
I typically don't advise folks to do it this way--much more expensive route--but I did have that in the back of my mind for this particular candidate who has already been admitted to PA school.
 
Mbeas said:
:confused:

it definitely IS clinical.
Click to expand...

How is that?

My understanding is that they are there when stuff is done, but they don't do things like techs or CNAs do. Do they draw labs or start IVs, hang or give meds, write their own notes (instead of transcribing verbal dictation), have one on one time with the patient fulfilling any orders, apply splints/casts/bandages/dressings etc?

I would define clinical as anything that involves direct patient care and responsibility like RNs, paramedics, RTs, CNAs, ED techs, etc, etc.

Perhaps this is just my own misconception but I thought that scribes were just that, scribes; they only helped the doc with completing the chart. I'm definitely not saying they don't see and experience a lot. All that one on one time with a physician would be fantastic! But if they aren't seeing patients alone, I don't see how that's clinical?

Maybe it's different from hospital to hospital and scribes are more like techs? If that's the case then I'm 100% wrong and I take back what I said. Otherwise, not clinical :D
 
racerwad said:
How is that?

My understanding is that they are there when stuff is done, but they don't do things like techs or CNAs do. Do they draw labs or start IVs, hang or give meds, write their own notes (instead of transcribing verbal dictation), have one on one time with the patient fulfilling any orders, apply splints/casts/bandages/dressings etc?

I would define clinical as anything that involves direct patient care and responsibility like RNs, paramedics, RTs, CNAs, ED techs, etc, etc.

Perhaps this is just my own misconception but I thought that scribes were just that, scribes; they only helped the doc with completing the chart. I'm definitely not saying they don't see and experience a lot. All that one on one time with a physician would be fantastic! But if they aren't seeing patients alone, I don't see how that's clinical?

Maybe it's different from hospital to hospital and scribes are more like techs? If that's the case then I'm 100% wrong and I take back what I said. Otherwise, not clinical :D
Click to expand...

Being in a patient care area is the definition of clinical experience.

If clinical experience meant actually doing something then 99% of premeds wouldn't get clinical experience because they're all unqualified to do the things you listed.

Sent from my SGH-T999 using SDN Mobile
 
MedPR said:
Being in a patient care area is the definition of clinical experience.

Sent from my SGH-T999 using SDN Mobile
Click to expand...

Nope.

Otherwise, janitors, secretaries, social workers, etc, would all be clinical care providers.

Being in a clinical care area and doing direct patient care is clinical.

As I had linked in my previous post: http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/clinical see definition usage a.
 
MedPR said:
Being in a patient care area is the definition of clinical experience.

If clinical experience meant actually doing something then 99% of premeds wouldn't get clinical experience because they're all unqualified to do the things you listed.

Sent from my SGH-T999 using SDN Mobile
Click to expand...

Yup.
 
racerwad said:
I would define clinical as anything that involves direct patient care and responsibility like RNs, paramedics, RTs, CNAs, ED techs, etc, etc.
Click to expand...

Per your own link: clinical = direct observation of the patient. There is a difference between clinical experience and providing clinical care.

Again, by the definition you provided, scribes certainly get a lot of clinical experience.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Next unread thread

Similar threads

PapaGuava
2023-2024 Philadelphia College of Osteopathic Medicine (PCOM-PA)
11 12 13 14 15
Replies
749
Views
132K
saren99
S
Taskha
Some thoughts after watching the Med School Insider Video ''Competitiveness of Med School vs Pharmacy vs Dental vs PA vs Business vs Law''
Replies
3
Views
2K
DO2015CA
DO2015CA
S
PCOM-PA Biomedical Sciences to DO?
Replies
23
Views
2K
madiso30
madiso30
PapaGuava
2022-2023 Philadelphia College of Osteopathic Medicine (PCOM-PA)
28 29 30 31 32
Replies
2K
Views
254K
Medkid2222
M
E
DO and PA programs
Replies
5
Views
2K
de Ribas
D
Top