DO vs. St. George's University

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trag08

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Whats your opinion on attending St. George's University in Grenada vs. DO schools? Which one is more beneficial for residencies outside of primary care.
 
DO. no question about it.
 
Your goal should be to go to a US medical school. This includes both MD and DO programs.
 
In my opinion it depends on what you want to do. If it is something like surgery then I think SGU is better. I have talked about this exact topic with my brother who went to SGU and is a surgeon. If you do well on your USMLE, you may get exactly where you want, but you will get a good job from SGU.
 
You should go to a US MD medical school, preferably a highly ranked one on the coast.
 
jyb5011 said:
In my opinion it depends on what you want to do. If it is something like surgery then I think SGU is better. I have talked about this exact topic with my brother who went to SGU and is a surgeon. If you do well on your USMLE, you may get exactly where you want, but you will get a good job from SGU.
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The idea that you cant become a surgeon (or that its very unlikely) as a DO is ridiculous. Likewise, the idea that if you go DO you will be forced in to primary care is ridiculous.
 
Nobody is saying you cannot be a surgeon as a DO, it is just more difficult because you usually have to jump through hoops for MDs. Same goes for carribean. It goes without question that a US MD school is the best option
 
DO route = 99% chance of landing residency FMG/IMG = 40% get a residency spot. Plus if you are going for a "competitive" residency (man i hate that term) osteopathic physicians have their own residencies that allopathic students (including FMG/IMG) can't apply for
 
jyb5011 said:
Nobody is saying you cannot be a surgeon as a DO, it is just more difficult because you usually have to jump through hoops for MDs. Same goes for carribean. It goes without question that a US MD school is the best option
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Yes, a US MD school is the best option for an MD residency. But in terms of becoming a surgeon, there are other pathways for DOs (which caribbean grads do not have). For example, DO residencies.
 
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FMG/Foreign school statistics don't apply the same to certain Caribbean schools. Schools like SGU have a better match rate than 40%...MUCH better and nearly the same as the US. So that's irrelevant for Trag's question about SGU vs. DO. You're right though, DO students have their own residency placements they can apply for so they do have that security. I think it really depends on your personal preferences and willingness to work hard imho. Either route can be fruitful if you put in the time.
 
When you come in asking this of pre-meds do you really expect an answer that comes with experience or expertise on the topic? Not that anyone here has given stupid answers minus jyb, but you need to seek answers from people that have hard numbers or statistics on the fact. Add to that people who have been through both to see what their take is.
 
No question in my mind: choose the DO school in the US.
 
US School all the way
 
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SGU is the best Caribbean option, and a legit path to becoming a physician. Between SGU and a DO school.. its hard to say. They offer/don't offer different things. There are plenty of other threads on this topic, but beware that many times people use these arguements in an attempt to justify their own career decisions. :luck:

EDIT: Someone above said that it is unlikely that a DO student could get forced into primary care. Rather, it is very likely that this could happen to either a DO student or a C-MD student. Allopathic residency spots are staying steady, and DO schools and class sizes are proliferating like crazy. Caribbean schools are even in various stages of opening their own DO schools in the states. As non-USMD students grow rapidly while residency spots are constant, it will become increasingly difficult for these students to match into even moderately competitive residencies.
 
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Decicco said:
SGU is the best Caribbean option, and a legit path to becoming a physician. Between SGU and a DO school.. its hard to say. They offer/don't offer different things. There are plenty of other threads on this topic, but beware that many times people use these arguements in an attempt to justify their own career decisions. :luck:

EDIT: Someone above said that it is unlikely that a DO student could get forced into primary care. Rather, it is very likely that this could happen to either a DO student or a C-MD student. Allopathic residency spots are staying steady, and DO schools and class sizes are proliferating like crazy. Caribbean schools are even in various stages of opening their own DO schools in the states. As non-USMD students grow rapidly while residency spots are constant, it will become increasingly difficult for these students to match into even moderately competitive residencies.
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This shouldn't be a significant problem over the next 5-7 years I would say.
 
jyb5011 said:
Nobody is saying you cannot be a surgeon as a DO, it is just more difficult because you usually have to jump through hoops for MDs. Same goes for carribean. It goes without question that a US MD school is the best option
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If you're a competitive applicant coming from the "BIG" DO schools: PCOM, KCOM, CCOM, DMU, you won't have a problem matching into a DO surgery residency.

By not having a problem you must have great letters of rec, awesome board scores, and great audition.
 
trag08 said:
Whats your opinion on attending St. George's University in Grenada vs. DO schools? Which one is more beneficial for residencies outside of primary care.
Click to expand...

You're posing this question to pre-meds, in the pre-med forum, to a bunch of college kids who haven't even set foot in a medical school yet? How would they know?
 
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Oh god why ....

Most of the time, whenever I post in a thread that involves the letters 'DO' in the pre-allo forum I end up with an infraction. Therefore, my goal in this thread is to post without getting an infraction (fingers crossed). OP, this really boils down to one thing in my opinion ... is the DO behind your name going to bother you. If not, I really can't suggest SGU over a DO school - keep in mind that as previous posters said, people use these threads to push agendas, so I mine as well state that I am applying to both US MD and US DO schools, but wouldn't go off shore.

DOs will always have their own residencies, and as others have mentioned, certain Carribean schools have trouble placing residents and as the spots tighten up, the FMGs will be the first to feel the hit. Another thing to keep in mind is that most people around here throw around the notion that when it comes to matching ACGME residencies ... DOs usually do better than FMGs. Also, the notion that you would be forced into primary care IS absurd ... it's honestly far more likely for an FMG. Take a look at any solid DO school match list ... students match into gas, rads, g-surg, ortho ... etc on both the ACGME and AOA (DO) residency side. I think, if given the option, you should consider staying in the US for medical school. There appear to be too many risks studying off shore.

Infraction ???? :scared:
 
In Trag's defense, it appears any issue similar to this posted in the med student or resident forums is moved here. Doesn't make sense to me but that's how the mods do it around here.
 
Decicco said:
SGU is the best Caribbean option, and a legit path to becoming a physician. Between SGU and a DO school.. its hard to say. They offer/don't offer different things. There are plenty of other threads on this topic, but beware that many times people use these arguements in an attempt to justify their own career decisions. :luck:

EDIT: Someone above said that it is unlikely that a DO student could get forced into primary care. Rather, it is very likely that this could happen to either a DO student or a C-MD student. Allopathic residency spots are staying steady, and DO schools and class sizes are proliferating like crazy. Caribbean schools are even in various stages of opening their own DO schools in the states. As non-USMD students grow rapidly while residency spots are constant, it will become increasingly difficult for these students to match into even moderately competitive residencies.
Click to expand...

Not a correct statement. The money came from a guy who earned it from operating a Caribbean school, but RVU is it no way associated with any offshore school. Being for profit, however, is another issue entirely.

Also, I don't know about this "DO schools and class sizes are proliferating like crazy," statement either. My 2007 MSAR lists 125 MD schools, yet now there are 130. Yes, some new DO schools have opened up in the interim as well. But even now, some ACGME residency spots go unfilled (in the lesser desired specialties, but those spots exist nonetheless). Just a thought.

But really, I have the philosophy that if you're meant to be successful, you will be, whether or not you attend (insert prestigious school here). I say pick whatever option works best for your given circumstances, and do your darndest to perform at a high level in medical school. I would say that goes for everyone, regardless of what school they eventually matriculate at.
 
beachblonde said:
Not a correct statement. The money came from a guy who earned it from operating a Caribbean school, but RVU is it no way associated with any offshore school. Being for profit, however, is another issue entirely.

Also, I don't know about this "DO schools and class sizes are proliferating like crazy," statement either. My 2007 MSAR lists 125 MD schools, yet now there are 130. Yes, some new DO schools have opened up in the interim as well. But even now, some ACGME residency spots go unfilled (in the lesser desired specialties, but those spots exist nonetheless). Just a thought.

But really, I have the philosophy that if you're meant to be successful, you will be, whether or not you attend (insert prestigious school here). I say pick whatever option works best for your given circumstances, and do your darndest to perform at a high level in medical school. I would say that goes for everyone, regardless of what school they eventually matriculate at.
Click to expand...

It was actually the son of the guy who founded AUC and RVU has no connection with Caribbean schools (also, good post!!).
 
beachblonde said:
Not a correct statement. The money came from a guy who earned it from operating a Caribbean school, but RVU is it no way associated with any offshore school. Being for profit, however, is another issue entirely.
Click to expand...

RVU was established by a family that owns a Caribbean school. I wasn't implying that it was like a satellite campus or something. This thread indicates that there is more of this in the works.

For more information
 
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trag08 said:
Whats your opinion on attending St. George's University in Grenada vs. DO schools? Which one is more beneficial for residencies outside of primary care.
Click to expand...

Some people want to be close to home and stay within the contigious USA. A lot of people have said DO, no doubt. But consider this - if you're in Grenada, maybe you'll acquire some other skills that will benefit you for a lifetime (i.e. learning Spanish, being immersed in a different culture, etc.)
 
cbrons said:
Some people want to be close to home and stay within the contigious USA. A lot of people have said DO, no doubt. But consider this - if you're in Grenada, maybe you'll acquire some other skills that will benefit you for a lifetime (i.e. learning Spanish, being immersed in a different culture, etc.)
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The official language, English, is used in the government, but Grenadian Creole is considered the lingua franca of the island. French Patois (Antillean Creole) is still spoken by about 10%–20% the population. Some Hindi/Bhojpuri terms are still spoken amongst the Indian descendants, mostly those pertaining to the kitchen; such as aloo, geera, karela, seim, chownkay, and baylay. The term bhai, which means 'brother' or 'partner' in Hindi, is a common form of greeting amongst Indo-Grenadian males of equal status. Aside from a marginal community of Rastafarians living in Grenada, nearly all are mainstream Christians, about half of them Roman Catholics; Anglicanism is the largest Protestant denomination with Presbyterian and Seventh Day Adventist taking up the remainder. Most Churches have denomination-based schools but are open to all. There is a small Muslim population mostly from Gujarati Indian immigrants who came many years ago and set up some merchant shops.
 
trag08 said:
Whats your opinion on attending St. George's University in Grenada vs. DO schools? Which one is more beneficial for residencies outside of primary care.
Click to expand...

You're better off going the DO route, career-wise. However, I have a former college classmate who went to SGU and judging by her facebook pictures, the island is really kind of pretty and I definitely wouldn't mind being there right now.

The attrition rate for osteopathic schools are lower, I think that their board rate passes are highter (SGU skews their board pass rates because they only allow people who are likely to pass the boards take the boards), and the DO schools will probably take care of you better since they are non-profit (with the exception of RVU) and there with the sole purpose of churning out the best physicians they can instead of making money. But most of them aren't next to the beach.
 
trag08 said:
Whats your opinion on attending St. George's University in Grenada vs. DO schools? Which one is more beneficial for residencies outside of primary care.
Click to expand...

Are you not considering US allopathic programs?
 
If you haven't been exposed to living in places outside of the US for long periods of time, you will most likely be miserable at SGU. Remember, it's a 3rd world country. Don't expect it to be like the US. My brother has been there since 1st year pre-med (bought into a bunch of stories, not really his fault). Could have very easily gotten into a good US medical school since he's really smart but took the SGU route. Anyway I went down there and it's not exactly the best place to be. The ocean is nice for a while but you start to get sick of it and according to my brother, you start to feel detached from the rest of the world and feel completely isolated. But when you're in med school, you're studying all the time in your room anyway, it's just when he was there for pre-med it sucked ass.
 
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I would choose DO over Caribbean, no question in my mind whatsoever. I might even pick a DO school over alot of US MD schools. The only foreign schools I could see myself picking over US MD schools are those in Israel, I hear they're really good. Of course, I want to have a family, and hauling a family/establishing a family in Israel would be a big challenge.

A few people keep suggesting that MD residencies are the only good choice for DO grads. I don't know why. Someone on another thread said that there might be a variance in quality between DO residencies, due to the tendency for them to be in community hospitals rather than academic centers. That's a good point, but alot of MD residencies are in community hospitals as well, if I'm not mistaken.
 
trag08 said:
Whats your opinion on attending St. George's University in Grenada vs. DO schools? Which one is more beneficial for residencies outside of primary care.
Click to expand...

Neither of those schools are ideal for competitive residencies, but there is more bias against IMGs than DOs. Additionally, DOs have their own residency spots in certain specialties. There is also the attrition factor at the Caribs and you may have financing problems. Therefore, in terms of residencies, DO will be better.

The main negatives of DOs compared to Caribbean schools are:

1. You will not be an MD, but a DO. There is still bias against DOs, whether in the medical community or among some patients.

2. DO schools don't focus on preparing for USMLE, so you may not be able to achieve high Step 1 scores to get into some specialties, but you can study on your own. In contrast, Caribbean schools are known to specifically teach you to the test and those people from there who do pass the test get very high scores - I think the average was 240 (compared to the national average of about 205 or so).

3. There is more international recognition for MDs than DOs.

I also don't agree that DOs will not be forced into primary care. I had published some statistics in another thread that clearly showed the worst case scenario could be that by 2015 40% of IMG residency spots are cut to be distributed to US seniors. Since most IMG spots are for primary care and since there will be more MDs for MD spots (almost 1000 increase by 2015), it means that DOs will be forced more into primary care. But that's not really a bad thing because by nature DO schools do focus mainly on primary care and prevention. Now that 40% cut in IMGs would be disastrous for the Caribbean schools.

I also read that SGU matches pretty well at NY residencies. As you can see, the choice is not that simple. If you don't have a preference for DO education and don't want to go into primary care, you should try your best to get into a US MD school.
 
cbrons said:
But consider this - if you're in Grenada, maybe you'll acquire some other skills that will benefit you for a lifetime (i.e. learning Spanish, being immersed in a different culture, etc.)
Click to expand...


Or you could go to a DO school in south FL and have the same experience. IT'S FREAKING RIDICULOUS DOWN HERE NOBODY $%^&E$#$%^& SPEAKS ENGLISH!
>.<

............sorry....I just got a little ...we'll say "annoyed" with the drivethrough at burgerking

*cough*

Carry on.

(by the way, I'm also of the opinion that a US school will provide you with a better option)
 
Decicco said:
RVU was established by a family that owns a Caribbean school. I wasn't implying that it was like a satellite campus or something. This thread indicates that there is more of this in the works.

For more information
Click to expand...

No one is certain about the future of more for-profit osteopathic schools in the US. The only comments made in the threads are from people claiming that they 'know someone who knows someone in the AOA,' etc. However, I think it should be noted that a. this thread was not created to discuss for profit education, please stay on top and b. the osteopathic community is outraged by a for-profit school and clearly sees it as an insult to the fantastic osteopathic medical schools out there. I urge you to not use this thread as an outlet for pushing any agenda, to stay on topic, and keep unfounded speculations as just that - rumors. Thanks.
 
Excelsius said:
In contrast, Caribbean schools are known to specifically teach you to the test and those people from there who do pass the test get very high scores - I think the average was 240 (compared to the national average of about 205 or so).
Click to expand...

I'd love to see a source that says the average Caribbean student passing USMLE score is 240 :laugh:

And the national average for the USMLE has been 222 as of late.
 
Is it just a rule in these type of threads that the OP only posts once before the rest of us take over😛?
 
singinfifi said:
Or you could go to a DO school in south FL and have the same experience. IT'S FREAKING RIDICULOUS DOWN HERE NOBODY $%^&E$#$%^& SPEAKS ENGLISH!
>.<

............sorry....I just got a little ...we'll say "annoyed" with the drivethrough at burgerking

*cough*

Carry on.

(by the way, I'm also of the opinion that a US school will provide you with a better option)
Click to expand...

:laugh:

That was my thought exactly. Wanna learn Spanish? There is no need to leave the US for that opportunity.

I remember reading somewhere of one guy's account of his experience in the Carib (don't remember which school, one of the top 3 though) and he recounted how bad the water was down there, and how he lost 15 lbs his first year because he got so ill from it. It's stuff like that that would keep me from leaving the US for med school; living in a different country just adds a whole different angle to it all. Do you really want to make things harder for yourself? Med school is tough enough.
 
J1515 said:
I'd love to see a source that says the average Caribbean student passing USMLE score is 240 :laugh:

And the national average for the USMLE has been 222 as of late.
Click to expand...

I haven't researched Carib schools, but one of the threads in the residency subforum mentioned that those students who do pass get an average of 240. The key word here is pass because I think about 50% or so of Carib students fail to pass it. So if you combine both, probably the average for Caribs would be 205, but I am not sure if there are any scientific studies proving this.
 
There was a heart-wrenching thread in the Residency subforum recently about a Caribbean student and the tough predicament he is in. This will help you see some of the downsides of the Caribbean schools: I'm starting to get really scared.
 
Excelsius said:
There was a heart-wrenching thread in the Residency subforum recently about a Caribbean student and the tough predicament he is in. This will help you see some of the downsides of the Caribbean schools: I'm starting to get really scared.
Click to expand...

Heart warming indeed.





It depends on what D.O. School your comparing St. George to.
 
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Excelsius said:
There was a heart-wrenching thread in the Residency subforum recently about a Caribbean student and the tough predicament he is in. This will help you see some of the downsides of the Caribbean schools: I'm starting to get really scared.
Click to expand...
bear in mind that he didn't technically ace his boards. from what I hear from a friend who is a Ross Student (i know this is hearsay), if you do well on your boards you should be alright, albeit you will be at a disadvantage.
 
FIREitUP said:
bear in mind that he didn't technically ace his boards. from what I hear from a friend who is a Ross Student (i know this is hearsay), if you do well on your boards you should be alright, albeit you will be at a disadvantage.
Click to expand...

I agree, but the point is that the attrition rates at the Caribbean schools are high. I think around half of them never make it. Probably part of the reason is because once you do fail, you have very few options: first, you have a lot of debts possibly because of worse financial aid than in US, and second, it is harder to get any money. Add to that residency: if you fail in the US, you have much better chances of retaking the test and matching somewhere. From Caribs, if you fail, even matching somewhere will be tough (because it is not easy even if you get average scores). But yes, if you do well, you should be fine. Some Caribbean students match into competitive specialties like radiology.

This person's story was very sad because you can see from his posts that he is a very congenial person, something you don't see among students here that much. Doctors definitely need more personalities like that.
 
jyb5011 said:
Nobody is saying you cannot be a surgeon as a DO, it is just more difficult because you usually have to jump through hoops for MDs. Same goes for carribean. It goes without question that a US MD school is the best option
Click to expand...

That just isn't true. You might have to jump through hoops if you want an ACGME residency. If you want an AOA residency then it doesn't matter. There are good and bad programs in booth. I know TONS of surgeons that are DOs. A lot more than Caribbean grads I know.
 
Established DO school vs St George ---> Established DO school wins.

Yet to be accredited DO school in BFW vs St George ---> St George wins.
 
Bacchus said:
This is an old article, but it shows some of the concerns for potential FMGs. It also gives a questionairre for those considering off shore schools.

http://www.naahp.org/resources_ForeignMed_Article.htm
Click to expand...

I'm skimming over that article now, and I would definitely recommend reading it for anybody considering a foreign medical school.

This is the best line in the whole article though:

"On rare occasions, international medical students have felt threatened by political unrest, hurricanes, earthquakes, and even a volcano."
 
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[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HNTxr2NJHa0[/youtube]
 
JackInTheBox said:
I'm skimming over that article now, and I would definitely recommend reading it for anybody considering a foreign medical school.

This is the best line in the whole article though:

"On rare occasions, international medical students have felt threatened by political unrest, hurricanes, earthquakes, and even a volcano."
Click to expand...

i didn't bother to read the article, but how is that unique to foreign schools? look at tulane and galveston. they've been hit hard too.
 
i think there is somewhat of a distinction that needs to be made with caribbean schools because some of the numbers getting thrown around here are NOT those relevant to st. george's. saying "caribbean schools do x,y,z" is much different than saying "SGU does xyz." this thread is specific to SGU, so leave all other caribean generalizations at the door people.

if those are your ONLY two options, study hard...you'll be fine either way. if you want to practice abroad, consider that DO will limit you.
 
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