mrcoolio01

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If you have a DO degree and get an MD (allopathic) board (http://www.osteopathic.org/index.cfm?PageID=faq_cons#certallopathic, http://www.abms.org/)

does this mean you will have the MD title as well?

e.g.
John Smith, DO, MD

I have seen some people do this like this guy http://www.twbookmark.com/authors/65/1847/
(i don't know, maybe he paid $65 in California in the 60's to get the MD)

No matter how much you tell me about how DO's are the same as MD's, I will always still want the MD title. So please don't try to convince me otherwise. I want to know if I can get the MD title in addition to DO, because I will be be specializing just like an MD. And frankly, most of the patients I will see won't really know what a DO is.

If a DO is really as good as an MD, then why can't we have equivalent titles?
BTW - I already know about the carribean program (http://www.uhsa.ag/pstudent/four/resdt/) but think it's a bad idea.
 

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An equivilant title is in the eye of the beholder. I will one day be a DO by choice and whether I consider that as good, better, or worse then an MD is irrelevent. It is the distinct degree that I will be earning and practicing with.

If you are so gung-ho on having an MD after your name, your only legit options are to transfer to an MD school (there are apparently a few that will allow this up to a certain point in your medical training) or start from square one and re-apply to an allopathic school through AMCAS.
 

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mrcoolio01 said:
If you have a DO degree and get an MD (allopathic) board (http://www.osteopathic.org/index.cfm?PageID=faq_cons#certallopathic, http://www.abms.org/)

does this mean you will have the MD title as well?

e.g.
John Smith, DO, MD
No. For example, I know someone who is board certified in PM&R (an allopathic specialty), but he's a DO. DOs can do allo specialties (and most do) and get board certified, but they retain their DO degree.
mrcoolio01 said:
I have seen some people do this like this guy http://www.twbookmark.com/authors/65/1847/
(i don't know, maybe he paid $65 in California in the 60's to get the MD)
Who knows. Also, NYCOM has a program specifically for foreign MDs who want to earn DO degrees. Needless to say, all of these grads have both the MD and DO degrees. And of course, AT Still himself was both an MD and the founder of osteopathic medicine.
mrcoolio01 said:
No matter how much you tell me about how DO's are the same as MD's, I will always still want the MD title. So please don't try to convince me otherwise. I want to know if I can get the MD title in addition to DO, because I will be be specializing just like an MD. And frankly, most of the patients I will see won't really know what a DO is.
Yeah I hear this "most of the patients I see won't know what a DO is" argument, but why does it matter? They're gonna know you're a physician. And most patients don't give a rats ass as long as they're getting proper medical treatment. 90% of the public doesn't know what a DO is, but so what? If they don't know and ask, give them a simple explanation.

Consider likely scenarios...

In an emergency situation, the last thing on the patient's mind is the degree of the physician. If an old man comes in to the ER and complains of severe chest pain, he doesn't think to himself, "Boy, I sure hope I get an MD to treat me!" He's thinking, "Oh my gosh I think I'm having a heart attack! I need medical help immediately!"

And if a primary care physician refers a patient to a cardiologist/surgeon/anesthesiologist, the patient knows he/she is going to see a cardiologist/surgeon/anesthesiologist. Again, they know they're seeing a physician. If the primary care physician says, "I think you should see this cardiologist. Dr. Smith is the best in the area." Does the patient care if the doc is a DO or an MD? No. The patient wants the physician that can provide the best treatment.

The way I see it premeds and osteopathic students are way too worried about this issue. The only time it will probably make a difference is if someone is looking through a phone book. And really, this will have very little (if any) effect on the volume of patients you get.

So I take it you're at a DO school now? If you want the MD you're gonna have to enroll in an allopathic program. You could attempt a transfer into a US allo school (not likely) or perhaps some of the foreign medical schools (I know Ross takes transfers with advanced standing). But with all that extra time and money, I couldn't imagine why you would want the MD that bad. And US osteo schools match better than Caribbean schools 99+ % of the time when it comes to residencies. Keep that in mind.
mrcoolio01 said:
If a DO is really as good as an MD, then why can't we have equivalent titles?
BTW - I already know about the carribean program (http://www.uhsa.ag/pstudent/four/resdt/) but think it's a bad idea.
DOs FOUGHT to be recognized as separate (unique) but equal. Why would they want the MD title? You mentioned the California issue--look more into the history of that. I think you'll have a greater understanding and appreciation for osteopathic medicine.

The link you mention here (I've heard about it too), like you say, is a bad idea.

All that said, I would prefer to go the MD route for several reasons even though I will probably apply to a few DO schools when the time comes. But I think you're painting a very unfair portrait of osteopathic medicine and not giving the respect it warrants.
 

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mrcoolio01 said:
No matter how much you tell me about how DO's are the same as MD's, I will always still want the MD title. So please don't try to convince me otherwise.
A simple solution to this problem: don't apply, attend, or graduate from a DO schools :idea:

To answer your original question, NO!!!

DO and MD are degrees given out by schools. If your school gives you a "doctor of medicine" degree, then it is an MD. If it says "doctor of osteopathy" or "doctor of osteopathic medicine", then it is a DO. These are college degrees, nothing more, nothing less (like a BA v BS)

Post-nominal letters such as PA-C, CRNA, CRNP, RN, etc. are not college degrees.

Also, technically, those with MBBS/MB ChB/MBBCh are not suppose to use the title MD in the US (although they can get away with it). If you look at the authors in JAMA, you will see that those w/ MBBS are states as such
 

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You ask why can't DO's and MD's have equivalent degrees? Well, they are equivalent, they are just not the same. The DO is trained as extensively as the MD and is just as qualified to practice. The only difference is OMM and the letters behind the name. I am going to become an MD, but I have enormous respect for DO's and do not consider myself "better" than my osteopathic counterparts, because the distinction is negligible between the two degrees.
 

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The DO and MD degrees are equivalent except that DOs actually have more training than MDs. If you do not want to have the initials D.O. at the end of your name i agree with a previous post that you should not apply to osteopathic medical school.

I have a question for ya...have you ever wondered what degree your dentist has? There are two degrees given out in dental schools depending on the institution you graduate from. Theres a D.D.S. (doctor of dental surgery) or D.M.D ( doctor of dental medicine). Both types of degrees have the exact same training. No one questions if one degree is better than the other. Contradicting myself however it is not exactly the same scenario for D.Os. and M.Ds. but in theory it is. It could very well be one of the few examples out there that is similar to the case at hand when a professional degrees is questioned.
 

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yep, this guy definitely paid the fee in the 60's to get the m.d. degree. if you look it up on the ama website, you'll find that he graduated from uc irvine (which used to be a d.o. school).

mrcoolio01 said:
I have seen some people do this like this guy http://www.twbookmark.com/authors/65/1847/
(i don't know, maybe he paid $65 in California in the 60's to get the MD)
 
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I'm really on the fence here... My application is absolutely brilliant except for a red flag (low verbal score to be specific). I've always wanted to be an MD, but slowly am beginning to accept the fate that no allopathic school will take me, even after nailing the interviews. Burns me up inside (in a sad way), because I damn well know I'm good enough.

On the other hand, osteopathic schools EASILY took me (I have my eye on NYCOM), but I don't want to follow a route that is irreversible. It would be ridiculous for a DO to go back to an allopathic school to get the MD, that plus imagine trying to explain yourself during the interview! I have nothing against osteopathy; rather, I very much like their difference with allopathy. It still doesn't change the fact that I still want an MD title. Yes, I'll admit it - I have an inferiority complex. My whole life, the DO credentials will be a reminder that I've had to settle for something less than I hoped for.

Anyone else in a similar situation? Would anyone recommend being an FMG instead, or taking a year off to do something productive and reapplying for MD?

Thanks all
 

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If the title is a big deal for you, please don't go to an Osteopathic school.
 

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mrcoolio01 said:
Burns me up inside (in a sad way), because I damn well know I'm good enough.

On the other hand, osteopathic schools EASILY took me (I have my eye on NYCOM), but I don't want to follow a route that is irreversible.
mrcollio01

while you must ultimately decide what's important to you and which path to take, based on your 2 posts in this thread, I highly recommend against going the DO route.

Your heart is not into it, your mind isn't into it, and you already have developed a sense of "shame" associated with being a DO and attending/graduating from DO school. If you attend an osteopathic school with this mindset, coupled with the stress that is typically found in any med school, there could be problems down the road.

Whether to wait a year to reapply, or go FMG - that's up to you. Every year many people decide to reapply or go FMG instead of DO - which is their choice and no one can fault them for it.
 

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mrcoolio01 said:
I'm really on the fence here... My application is absolutely brilliant except for a red flag (low verbal score to be specific). I've always wanted to be an MD, but slowly am beginning to accept the fate that no allopathic school will take me, even after nailing the interviews. Burns me up inside (in a sad way), because I damn well know I'm good enough.
Okay! I thought I was the only one with such confidence (minus the good gpa, mcat, brilliant application and interview).

mrcoolio01 said:
On the other hand, osteopathic schools EASILY took me (I have my eye on NYCOM), but I don't want to follow a route that is irreversible. It would be ridiculous for a DO to go back to an allopathic school to get the MD, that plus imagine trying to explain yourself during the interview! I have nothing against osteopathy; rather, I very much like their difference with allopathy. It still doesn't change the fact that I still want an MD title. Yes, I'll admit it - I have an inferiority complex. My whole life, the DO credentials will be a reminder that I've had to settle for something less than I hoped for..
inferiority complex??? YES... maybe do Post-Bac and re-apply to MD program... also since you already got interviews, you have a good chance of getting another. Just add some research or improve MCAT and you will become a great MD. But your inferiority complex may not be fixed. Sorry

mrcoolio01 said:
Anyone else in a similar situation? Would anyone recommend being an FMG instead, or taking a year off to do something productive and reapplying for MD?..
YES.. you should do it for sure. Do research... re-do MCAT... etc.. if you go to DO school you will be so miserable.. and hence you will make me pissed off... and I would have to put you on my nauty list and will start saying bad things about you! You know how it is. You will become a big famous MD one day and look down on us little pathetic DOs. :thumbdown:

Good luck in the carribeans!
 

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yahtzee4758 said:
The DO and MD degrees are equivalent except that DOs actually have more training than MDs..
With all do respect.

That is a sad excuse for DO's to use. DO's learn OMT, but MD's spend as much time in school.. so they must be learning something more than DO's. So people should stop saying this.
 

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mrcoolio01 said:
If you have a DO degree and get an MD (allopathic) board (http://www.osteopathic.org/index.cfm?PageID=faq_cons#certallopathic, http://www.abms.org/)

does this mean you will have the MD title as well?

e.g.
John Smith, DO, MD

I have seen some people do this like this guy http://www.twbookmark.com/authors/65/1847/
(i don't know, maybe he paid $65 in California in the 60's to get the MD)

No matter how much you tell me about how DO's are the same as MD's, I will always still want the MD title. So please don't try to convince me otherwise. I want to know if I can get the MD title in addition to DO, because I will be be specializing just like an MD. And frankly, most of the patients I will see won't really know what a DO is.

If a DO is really as good as an MD, then why can't we have equivalent titles?
BTW - I already know about the carribean program (http://www.uhsa.ag/pstudent/four/resdt/) but think it's a bad idea.
Troll.

:thumbdown:
 

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If you check the history of osteopathy you'll find that there was legislation introduced in CA in 1955, The Cline Report, which forced all DO's in California to assimilate their titles to MD. The DO's actually fought this legislation and most were devastated when forced to identify themselves as MD's. Across the country other DO's fought to keep this from becoming a national occurrence. As a result this happened only in CA, once.

Those that are proud of the DO profession are pleased with the fact that this does not happen on a regular basis, because there is a slight distinction between MD's and DO's. Neither is better then the other when it comes to practicing medicine- DO's just have training in OMT.

It really comes down to personal choice. If your ego is that big that you'll put off med school for another year for 2 little letters behind your name then by all means do it. I would recommend against foreign schools however. This decision was easy for me after interviewing with a representative from a foreign school who told me flat out to go to a US DO school rather then a foriegn school, as your opportunities for clinicals and residencies are much better.

If you do decide to go DO and still can't get over the title- some DO's prefer to just go by "Dr. Smith" instead of including the letters behind their name. This will also eliminate the concern that your patients will not know what DO means.

Anyway- only you can make this decision. I would recommend that you speak with current MD's, DO's and foreign grads before making any decision. Get all the facts and opinions before discluding any school.
 

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mxxena said:
If you check the history of osteopathy you'll find that there was legislation introduced in CA in 1955, The Cline Report, which forced all DO's in California to assimilate their titles to MD. The DO's actually fought this legislation and most were devastated when forced to identify themselves as MD's. Across the country other DO's fought to keep this from becoming a national occurrence. As a result this happened only in CA, once.

Those that are proud of the DO profession are pleased with the fact that this does not happen on a regular basis, because there is a slight distinction between MD's and DO's. Neither is better then the other when it comes to practicing medicine- DO's just have training in OMT.

It really comes down to personal choice. If your ego is that big that you'll put off med school for another year for 2 little letters behind your name then by all means do it. I would recommend against foreign schools however. This decision was easy for me after interviewing with a representative from a foreign school who told me flat out to go to a US DO school rather then a foriegn school, as your opportunities for clinicals and residencies are much better.

If you do decide to go DO and still can't get over the title- some DO's prefer to just go by "Dr. Smith" instead of including the letters behind their name. This will also eliminate the concern that your patients will not know what DO means.

Anyway- only you can make this decision. I would recommend that you speak with current MD's, DO's and foreign grads before making any decision. Get all the facts and opinions before discluding any school.
A survey of patients will show that most don't actually know whether their physician is an M.D. or D.O.

This is especially true in a hospital, where anyone with a white coat is called "Doctor" even if I have "medical student" written in 3 places on my person.
 

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OSUdoc08 said:
A survey of patients will show that most don't actually know whether their physician is an M.D. or D.O.

This is especially true in a hospital, where anyone with a white coat is called "Doctor" even if I have "medical student" written in 3 places on my person.
Definitely true. Even when I was shadowing a doc at a small clinic, none of the patients cared as long as they got their meds. No one sees your title, it just doesn't matter, and that's probably the least of concerns a patient would have.
 

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If it means that much to you, spend a year doing prep for the verbal part of the mcat and retake it. If you think being a DO is gonna give you an inferiority complex, FMG will too although maybe it won't come up as much. Also consider residency placement options available to FMGs.

There are also always one year master programs you can do that increase your chances of admission next cycle. But if it's your MCAT not your grades that are below par, that might not be a good option for you.

I would probably just retake the mcat and apply next year, if everything else is good getting an 8, or maybe even a 7 could give you a good shot at US allo schools.
 

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I agree, the easiest thing to do would be to re-take the MCAT. You obviously did well in the sciences so it should be cake. Just do a lot of reading before your next one.

BTW, does anyone ever ask their dentist why he is a DMD and not a DDS? NO one cares! Get over it. Dont' be a DO you will have a chip on your shoulder for the rest of your life. Just my 2 cents.

BMW-




crys20 said:
If it means that much to you, spend a year doing prep for the verbal part of the mcat and retake it. If you think being a DO is gonna give you an inferiority complex, FMG will too although maybe it won't come up as much. Also consider residency placement options available to FMGs.

There are also always one year master programs you can do that increase your chances of admission next cycle. But if it's your MCAT not your grades that are below par, that might not be a good option for you.

I would probably just retake the mcat and apply next year, if everything else is good getting an 8, or maybe even a 7 could give you a good shot at US allo schools.
 

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mrcoolio01 said:
I'm really on the fence here... My application is absolutely brilliant except for a red flag (low verbal score to be specific). I've always wanted to be an MD, but slowly am beginning to accept the fate that no allopathic school will take me, even after nailing the interviews. Burns me up inside (in a sad way), because I damn well know I'm good enough.

On the other hand, osteopathic schools EASILY took me (I have my eye on NYCOM), but I don't want to follow a route that is irreversible. It would be ridiculous for a DO to go back to an allopathic school to get the MD, that plus imagine trying to explain yourself during the interview! I have nothing against osteopathy; rather, I very much like their difference with allopathy. It still doesn't change the fact that I still want an MD title. Yes, I'll admit it - I have an inferiority complex. My whole life, the DO credentials will be a reminder that I've had to settle for something less than I hoped for.

Anyone else in a similar situation? Would anyone recommend being an FMG instead, or taking a year off to do something productive and reapplying for MD?

Thanks all


Please DO NOT go to NYCOM or any other DO school! I would hate to see someone with your mindset have the same degree that I have. I don't mean that offensively, I mean it truthfully. Good luck in your pursuit of an MD.
 

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Go to the Caribbean... no question about it. If it will "remind you everyday that you settled for less" the Carib title won't remind you everyday... by all means (I say this for your good and not bashing you :thumbup: )
 
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Thanks alot all

I think I am going to go the DO path, because, in spite of everything I've said before, I really don't wan't to wait another year. I'll see, I may just do the carribean thing.. but for now I've made the decision not to wait, and to seize the opportunities I have. Moral of the story, I guess: don't let little things get in the way of your end goal.
 

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mrcoolio01 said:
Thanks alot all

I think I am going to go the DO path, because, in spite of everything I've said before, I really don't wan't to wait another year. I'll see, I may just do the carribean thing.. but for now I've made the decision not to wait, and to seize the opportunities I have. Moral of the story, I guess: don't let little things get in the way of your end goal.
Especially little things like personal beliefs and desires :thumbup:
 

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I have worked in a hospital for 1.5 years now and yesterday I ran into one of my favorite doctors and we were talking and much to my suprise I noticed on his badge that he was a DO. In all that time I had never even noticed. The man is one of the most respected doctors on the floor and when I asked several co-workers they didn't know either. I asked him point blank if he ever dealt with the whole "what is a DO" thing and he told me "son, when I walk into a sick persons room I tell them my name and that I am going to be their doctor and take care of them, and I have'nt had one yet to look at my badge and ask me about it". He also said "In fact I am so damn busy I haven't even thought about that crap in a long time." He said he did hear about it from other docs in school and residency some but all the patients want to know is that they are being taken care of. I thought it was interesting. Like someone said before, MD and DO are degrees and titles to put on name badges, what those degrees make you is a doctor and that's all patients care about. As for your personal dillema, that's easy, go to an M.D. school and quit wasting our time. If you have to ask and reask and defend your thinking here then your mind is made up and you should be an M.D. You going to a D.O. school would be a disgrace to those of us who WANT to be DO's. Just my 2¢...
 

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mrcoolio01 said:
I'm really on the fence here... My application is absolutely brilliant except for a red flag (low verbal score to be specific). I've always wanted to be an MD, but slowly am beginning to accept the fate that no allopathic school will take me, even after nailing the interviews. Burns me up inside (in a sad way), because I damn well know I'm good enough.

On the other hand, osteopathic schools EASILY took me (I have my eye on NYCOM), but I don't want to follow a route that is irreversible. It would be ridiculous for a DO to go back to an allopathic school to get the MD, that plus imagine trying to explain yourself during the interview! I have nothing against osteopathy; rather, I very much like their difference with allopathy. It still doesn't change the fact that I still want an MD title. Yes, I'll admit it - I have an inferiority complex. My whole life, the DO credentials will be a reminder that I've had to settle for something less than I hoped for.

Anyone else in a similar situation? Would anyone recommend being an FMG instead, or taking a year off to do something productive and reapplying for MD?

Thanks all

Just how low is your VR on the MCAT?
 

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JimmyMallo said:
I have worked in a hospital for 1.5 years now and yesterday I ran into one of my favorite doctors and we were talking and much to my suprise I noticed on his badge that he was a DO. In all that time I had never even noticed.
If you truly believe that DOs and MDs are equal, why was it so surprising?
 

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mrcoolio01 said:
Thanks alot all

I think I am going to go the DO path, because, in spite of everything I've said before, I really don't wan't to wait another year. I'll see, I may just do the carribean thing.. but for now I've made the decision not to wait, and to seize the opportunities I have. Moral of the story, I guess: don't let little things get in the way of your end goal.
In the long term, 1 year means nothing. You shouldn't do something now that you aren't going to be happy with just because it will save a year in the long run. I was in a similar situation as you a couple of years ago. Now I am in the 2nd year of a Masters program and have raised my MCAT 9 points. I never really thought about DO school. If you consider DO school as settling on something you don't really want as much as an MD (which, like it or not, is the reality for many DOs), then stick it out and get yourself into an MD program some how. It will be worth it in the long run if it's what you really want.
 

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GonnaBeAnMD said:
Go to the Caribbean... no question about it. If it will "remind you everyday that you settled for less" the Carib title won't remind you everyday... by all means (I say this for your good and not bashing you :thumbup: )
A Carib title, although not evident to your patients (until they check your profile), will be far "worse" than getting a D.O. At least everyone would immediately know that, with a D.O. degree, you received a high quality United States med school education. You can certainly not say that for all those doctors with sketchy foreign "M.D.'s".
 

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sga814 said:
A Carib title, although not evident to your patients (until they check your profile), will be far "worse" than getting a D.O. At least everyone would immediately know that, with a D.O. degree, you received a high quality United States med school education. You can certainly not say that for all those doctors with sketchy foreign "M.D.'s".
come on first of all the post that you quoted was the poster being facetious, secondly there are many FMG's that are very high quality doc's. To practice in the US they have to complete the same boards and jump through a lot of hoops. I personally would not have went to the Carib. for my education, but I am certainly not going to insult those that take that route.
 

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DORoe said:
come on first of all the post that you quoted was the poster being facetious, secondly there are many FMG's that are very high quality doc's. To practice in the US they have to complete the same boards and jump through a lot of hoops. I personally would not have went to the Carib. for my education, but I am certainly not going to insult those that take that route.

I apologize to those people who are planning on actually taking the carib route. When I said sketchy schools, I guess I was really referring to those people who graduate from strange schools in Eastern Europe or elsewhere, that claim to be med schools, but are really not.. and then some graduates of those schools try to pass off their diploma as an actual med school degree... while at the same time "mysteriously" obtaining the correct answers for the EFMG, after which they legally obtain an "MD". I guess I was being kinda biased because I personally know 3 people who have done that.

So- if you are planning on going to a fully accredited foreign medical school and legally obtaining a license in the U.S., good luck to you, and I truly look forward to seeing you as a professional.
 

tylrc

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Questions like this sort of make me wonder what your true ambition is... MD... DO?... bottom line, physician, you're helping people through the magic/science of medicine and you're doing it for OTHER people. So maybe you should ask yourself if you're doing this for the right reasons? I'm not saying you're not, but to be concerned about something this trivial isn't what you're in the 'business' for.
 

sga814

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tylrc said:
Questions like this sort of make me wonder what your true ambition is... MD... DO?... bottom line, physician, you're helping people through the magic/science of medicine and you're doing it for OTHER people. So maybe you should ask yourself if you're doing this for the right reasons? I'm not saying you're not, but to be concerned about something this trivial isn't what you're in the 'business' for.
damn straight!! only problem is- some people need to feed their egos and/or belittle others to make themselves feel better- so unless DO's actually become a "visible" minority, this trend will continue. My suggestion to the DO pre-meds is- go DO because you really want it, not as an alternative to MD. Otherwise you'll just end up trying to become a part of as many AMA boards as you can, ignore the AOA completely, and live with self-conceived shame your entire life.
 

docbill

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I agree DO should not be a back up for MD. Then people will live as closet MDs all their life. Hidding there degree behind Dr. JOE BLOW.

However, I will say that a DO degree is another mean for one to become a physician. It is an alternative option for those who want to be in the medical field. Originaly most don't hear about DO prof. we only hear about MD prof. Then when one reads more.. and become interested. And become converted to DO prof. Nothing wrong with that. I am one of those.

Would I be an MD instead? surreeee.. No prob.
Would I hide my DO degree behind my name? NO. contrary I will be proud and loyal to the means that helped me become a physician.

NOW CAN WE PLEASE END THESE MD vs. DO threads.
CAN WE NAME THEM MEDICAL PHIL INSTEAD.