Do you believe in evolution through natural selection?

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Do you believe in evolution through natural selection?

  • Yes, I believe that organisms evolved without the direction of a supreme being

    Votes: 283 69.5%

  • Yes, but a supreme being guided their evolution

    Votes: 83 20.4%

  • No, I am an intelligent design proponent

    Votes: 19 4.7%

  • HELL NO! I am a straight up creationist! Genesis is where its at!

    Votes: 22 5.4%
  • Total voters
    407
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codswallop said:
Ok, but then it makes a belief in God only as reasonable as a belief in any unproven postulate, noodly or otherwise.
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Isn't that what it's called? A belief God? I'm the type of person who wants proof before being able to dismiss something. Do you believe in ghost? Do you believe that when we die, it's just lights off? There are many things that can't be proven yet but someday they will be and until that day comes, so be it.
 
StormingWynn said:
We constructed that word to fit the Universe. It doesn't mean it is.
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How is the universe above/beyond natural? In case you don't follow, that would be what the prefix super- of supernatural implies.

Additionally, arbitrarily assigning definitions to words in order to support your arguments does not make your positions more logical or mind-blowing.
 
angst019 said:
The origin of the universe(anything) cannot be known.
If the origin of the universe is unknown, it is supernatural.
Therfore, the universe is supernatural.
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Thanks for proving my point. We can explain when time started but we cannot explain where it came from.
 
StormingWynn said:
Isn't that what it's called? A belief God? I'm the type of person who wants proof before being able to dismiss something. Do you believe in ghost? Do you believe that when we die, it's just lights off? There are many things that can't be proven yet but someday they will be and until that day comes, so be it.
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do you believe in unicorns? leprechauns? the more proper stance would be to be skeptical until shown otherwise.
 
LOL at option 4. "genesis is where it's at!"

Couple problems here:

god created light on day one along with the day and night. The sun comes afterwards on the fourth day... Hmmm.. problem here? We have day, and evening, and light, BEFORE the sun.

Also, later in Genesis 2:4 and onwards:

Before any plant had appeared, before any rain had fallen, while a mist[11] watered the earth, Yahweh formed the man out of dust from the ground and breathed the breath of life into his nostrils. And the man became a "living being" (Heb. nephesh)...." (later on) "He made domestic animals and birds, and the man gave them their names, but none of them is a fitting helper."

This contradicts: 6th day: "God commands the land to bring forth living creatures (seventh command); He makes wild beasts, livestock and reptiles. He then creates Man and Woman in His "image" and "likeness" (eighth command)."

total contradiction. Man before animals or the other way around?
 
StormingWynn said:
Isn't that what it's called? A belief God? I'm the type of person who wants proof before being able to dismiss something. Do you believe in ghost? Do you believe that when we die, it's just lights off? There are many things that can't be proven yet but someday they will be and until that day comes, so be it.
Click to expand...

So you believe everything until a negative is proven? Boy, you must believe a lot of silly things then, because it's pretty difficult to prove a negative.
 
Here we go again, lets talk about logic.

Some of us here are talking about how unguided evolution cannot be the cause of human evolution. Some of us are saying that there is no way molecules and matter came from nothing, and that there must be something out there that "started" it all and caused the big bang, and that this something had to be "God".

If there is matter then there must be a god who created it?

Well this is a statement that veils an illogical core with the guise of logic. The existence of a God is a paradox if the line of reasoning that religion proposes is to hold. It holds that if there has to be a Creator then there has to be a Creator who made that Creator because how could that creator come from nothing?

Religion dates back to times where it was necessary for a group of people to control and give hope to people who had little to live for. Religion is the tooth fairy of adulthood. How is it that people can so readily deny something that is material, and evident. Something that is real and is evidence in front of their eyes. These same people believe that it is a MAGICAL being that created everything. Do you believe in Magic? If you answer NO then you CANNOT believe in a god or religion.
 
greatnt249 said:
So you believe everything until a negative is proven? Boy, you must believe a lot of silly things then, because it's pretty difficult to prove a negative.
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You're trying to disprove something that YOU CANNOT. And I believe in what I want. I'm not saying that evolution isn't real.
 
StormingWynn said:
Thanks for proving my point. We can explain when time started but we cannot explain where it came from.
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Actually, I proved that your logic was completely flawed. I restated the form of your argument and showed that it is clearly invalid. If you cannot explain the origin of something, it does not follow that it is supernatural.
 
angst019 said:
Actually, I proved that your logic was completely flawed. I restated the form of your argument and showed that it is clearly invalid. If you cannot explain the origin of something, it does not follow that it is supernatural.
Click to expand...

So what do you call something that can't be explained? Natural? That's the only other option.
 
bleargh said:
uhh... no. surprisingly, there are more adjectives in the dictionary than "natural" and "supernatural"
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Geez, I'm talking about something either being Real or Not, Natural or Supernatural.

What, we're going to lable God as sexy now?
 
StormingWynn said:
So what do you call something that can't be explained? Natural? That's the only other option.
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I can't disprove the existence of the Leprechaun, does it follow that it's sound logic to believe in it? :luck:
 
StormingWynn said:
So what do you call something that can't be explained? Natural? That's the only other option.
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Here's a revolutionary idea. When we don't understand something, we can just admit it! Call it currently unexplained (and work to understand and explain it, objectively of course). We don't need to feel compelled to mythologize about it. And if we do, we should at least be honest that it is only mythology.
 
StormingWynn said:
So what do you call something that can't be explained? Natural? That's the only other option.
Click to expand...

Listen, I am neither arguing in favor of or against the existence of the supernatural. I am simply saying that an inability to explain something's origin does not imply that it is unexplainable.

You, for instance, most probably can not explain quantum mechanics, C++ computer code, or what about the guitar solo at the end of Freebird makes it so awesome, but that does not imply that these topics are unexplainable (or supernatural).
 
teenmachinery1 said:
LOL at option 4. "genesis is where it's at!"

Couple problems here:

god created light on day one along with the day and night. The sun comes afterwards on the fourth day... Hmmm.. problem here? We have day, and evening, and light, BEFORE the sun.

Also, later in Genesis 2:4 and onwards:

Before any plant had appeared, before any rain had fallen, while a mist[11] watered the earth, Yahweh formed the man out of dust from the ground and breathed the breath of life into his nostrils. And the man became a "living being" (Heb. nephesh)...." (later on) "He made domestic animals and birds, and the man gave them their names, but none of them is a fitting helper."

This contradicts: 6th day: "God commands the land to bring forth living creatures (seventh command); He makes wild beasts, livestock and reptiles. He then creates Man and Woman in His "image" and "likeness" (eighth command)."

total contradiction. Man before animals or the other way around?
Click to expand...

anyone vote for option 4?
 
angst019 said:
Listen, I am neither arguing in favor of or against the existence of the supernatural. I am simply saying that an inability to explain something's origin does not imply that it is unexplainable.

You, for instance, most probably can not explain quantum mechanics, C++ computer code, or what about the guitar solo at the end of Freebird makes it so awesome, but that does not imply that these topics are unexplainable (or supernatural).
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Others can, thus making them something that can be explained.

Basically what I'm asking is that if someone can explain to me why God doesn't exist then I will gladly throw away my belief.
 
StormingWynn said:
Others can, thus making them something that can be explained.

Basically what I'm asking is that if someone can explain to me why God doesn't exist then I will gladly throw away my belief.
Click to expand...
again, since you keep ignoring this very salient point - why limit yourself to god?

unicorns! talking hush puppies! as seen on tv products that actually don't suck!
 
StormingWynn said:
Others can, thus making them something that can be explained.

Basically what I'm asking is that if someone can explain to me why God doesn't exist then I will gladly throw away my belief.
Click to expand...

Whether or not others can explain God has no bearing on the argument. To go back to my previous example, the question of a squirrel's naturalness or supernaturalness is independent of the perceptions of human beings.
 
StormingWynn said:
Others can, thus making them something that can be explained.

Basically what I'm asking is that if someone can explain to me why God doesn't exist then I will gladly throw away my belief.
Click to expand...

:smack:

No one is arguing for/against the existence of God or asking you to throw away your belief in God, since God's existence cannot be proven/disproven. God is apart from science because God's existence is nonfalsifiable.

However, evolution is falsifiable; to those who don't believe in evolution, what is your scientific theory to the contrary?
 
why would they use tables when they have perfectly fine TUMMIES!
 
greatnt249 said:
:smack:

No one is arguing for/against the existence of God or asking you to throw away your belief in God, since God's existence cannot be proven/disproven. God is apart from science because God's existence is nonfalsifiable.

However, evolution is falsifiable; to those who don't believe in evolution, what is your scientific theory to the contrary?
Click to expand...

Well there you go. LOL, I was just defending my belief and we've come to a consensus? I believe in evolution 100% by the way.
 
StormingWynn said:
...I was just defending my belief...
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I must have missed that part. You never really explained why it's reasonable to believe in a god but not in unicorns, leprechauns, and the Holy FSM.
 
Arguing about the existence of god is like wiping your ass. It's a little smelly, sort of fun, and you may even find a "kernel" (of truth)!
 
codswallop said:
I must have missed that part. You never really explained why it's reasonable to believe in a god but not in unicorns, leprechauns, and the Holy FSM.
Click to expand...


Theist: That box has a leprechaun in it.

Atheist: I don't believe that...why do you?

Theist: I heard him talking.

Atheist: I don't believe that either...in fact, I have no evidence that leprechauns exist.

Theist: Well, either there's a leprechaun in the box or there isn't, right?

Atheist: Right.

Theist: So it's 50/50...and since I heard him talk, I'm sure that there's a leprechaun in there.

Atheist: Either there's a leprechaun in the box or not, but that doesn't mean the odds are 50/50.

Theist: Of course it does.

Atheist: Actually, it doesn’t, but could you offer some evide...

Theist: Hang on! He's just told me that if you don't believe he's in there, he'll chain you to a tree after you're dead and stick his shillelagh up your ass for 10,000 years!

Atheist: Um, wow, but I was asking if you could offer some additional evidence beyond your claim that you heard him. I didn't hear him say that, by the way.

Theist: Well, you're not listening hard enough.

Atheist: Ok (listens)...noth...

Theist: Give it TIME! You've got to sincerely WANT to hear him...

Atheist: If he's in there, I'd like to know it...I'll keep listening.

Theist: Did you hear that?

Atheist: Nope, nothing.

Theist: You're either lying or you're so closed minded that he's not letting you hear him.

Atheist: Not letting me? Leprechauns can choose who can hear them?

Theist: Of course! He could open this lid, show himself to me...and you'd never see it, you'd think the box was closed the whole time. They're MAGIC!

Atheist: Well, do you have any evidence for any of this? I mean, I've never seen a leprechaun...I have no reason to think they even exist and every time you tell me how to prove it, the tests fail.

Theist: No, YOU fail. It worked for me.

Atheist: (Motions toward a handful of people to one side) Well, there are other people here who have tried this...and it failed for them.

Theist: Yes, but these people (motions toward a huge group off to another side) heard it. In fact there are WAY more people over here who will tell you they heard it.

(The Atheist moves off to ask them a few questions.)

Atheist: I talked to some of them...they all have a slightly different take on this. Some say it's a leprechaun; others say it's a fairy; still others say it's a goblin. They don’t all describe the same voice and they apparently have conflicting messages that they claim came from inside the box. Most of them simply said that they knew other people who claimed to know what was in the box.

Theist: Ah, yes! There's actually a troll in the box with the leprechaun. He sometimes pretends to be the leprechaun, or a fairy, or a goblin in order to fool those other people - but you'll notice they STILL heard something.

Atheist: Yes, some say that, but others don't.

Theist: Well, that troll sometimes blocks the sounds so people can't hear it.

Atheist: So, how do you know, when you hear the leprechaun, that you aren't hearing the troll?

Theist: Don't be absurd! The leprechaun is my friend; he makes sure that I only hear him.

Atheist: But how can you be sure...if you think there's a troll there too, who pretends to be a leprechaun...how can you know? Maybe there's ONLY the troll and he's just ****ing with you.

Theist: Now you're just being thick. Look, there's a box, right?

Atheist: Yup.

Theist: Now why would there be a box here unless there was something in it?? There MUST be something in it, right?

Atheist: No, the box could be empty.

Theist: No it couldn't, or there'd be no reason for the box to exist! Boxes are for holding things. We all know that.

Atheist: So you're claiming that the box could not possibly be empty?

Theist: Correct.

Atheist: And you don't see that as a flawed premise?

Theist: No, and it's confirmed by the fact that I heard a leprechaun.

Atheist: How did you hear him?

Theist: He talks to me telepathically.

Atheist: Oh, so you didn't mean to listen with my ears, you meant listen with my mind?

Theist: Your heart.

Atheist: That doesn't listen...

Theist: Your metaphoric heart!

Atheist: Ok...but that guy says he heard it with his ears.

Theist: He's wrong...he's hearing the troll.

Atheist: But I don't even hear the troll.

Theist: He's blocking you.

Atheist: Ok...how do you know all of this?

Theist: The leprechaun told me.

Atheist: Ok, so you've made appeals to magic, telepathy, leprechauns, trolls and non-empty boxes....you've offered no evidence. I'm sorry, but I don't believe you.

Theist: Don't forget the shillelagh!

Atheist: Right… and you've made threats about things that'll happen after I'm dead - when there's no evidence that there's any 'me' to experience anything after I'm dead. I just don't believe your claim.

Theist: What if you're wrong? Isn't that a lot to risk? He says he's got a pot of gold for you if you believe...isn't that worth believing?

Atheist: Look, even if I could make myself believe, which I can't, why would I want to do that? If there's no leprechaun in there, then I've wasted the opportunity find out what's really in the box. And if he wants me to follow his instructions...

Theist: Oh, he does...I've written them down for you, here...

Atheist: (Looks at the list) Then I'll have wasted time doing things that...does that say "Do not eat poo"?

Theist: Yup...great rule, isn't it?

Atheist: Yeah, but what about "Drop money in the box"

Theist: He's got needs too...pots of gold don't grow on trees.

Atheist: I thought he was magic.

Theist: He is...but, well, the money is so we can tell other people what the leprechaun wants.

Atheist: Why doesn't he tell them?

Theist: He could, but...well, he will, if they're open too it. Some, like you, are fooled by the troll.

Atheist: Why doesn't he get rid of the troll.

Theist: It's a mystery, but we're sure he will eventually.

Atheist: Anyway, if this isn't true, then I'll have wasted a lot of time and money on something false...only to avoid a threat that wasn't real.

Theist: Yeah...but what if you're wrong.

Atheist: Ok...look, I'm done. I do NOT believe there's a leprechaun in the box.

Theist: How can you be sure?

Atheist: I'm not, but I don't believe there is.

Theist: How can you say there's no leprechaun in the box!

Atheist: I didn't...I said I don't believe there is one.

Theist: Same thing.

Atheist: No it isn't...however, now that I've considered and rejected your claim...

Theist: Don't do it!

Atheist: I'm willing to say that I actually do believe there is no leprechaun in that box.

Theist: NO! You're making an irrational claim...you think you know everything?!??!

Atheist: No, I'm not claiming that I'm absolutely certain that there's no leprechaun in the box...but I actually believe, to some degree of certainty that there isn't...because if there were, I'd expect there to be some evidence to support it, and investigations keep coming up empty. I'll be back with some tools...we're going to open that box.

Theist: You can't open the box.

Atheist: Why not.

Theist: You just can't, it's impossible.

(Another person walks up)

Agnostic: He's right. Neither of you know what's in the box. You're both equally absurd to assert that you DO know.

Atheist: I didn't assert that I'm absolutely certain, I simply stated what my belief is...and it's based on the evidence, or lack thereof

Agnostic: Don't be silly...you're just as dogmatic as he is.

Atheist: I'm not dogmatic about this at all - I'd just like to open the box and find out.

Agnostic: The box is impervious.

Atheist: How do you know?

Agnostic: Um, well, I don't...it just seems impervious.

Atheist: Really, do you have other impervious things to compare it to?

Agnostic: Well, um, no...but I'm sure it's impervious.

Atheist: If you'll forgive me, as we're essentially on the same side in that we reject his assertion...

Agnostic: I don't reject it, I don't reject anything

Atheist: Do you accept his claim?

Agnostic: I don't know.

Atheist: You don't know whether you accept his claim?

Agnostic: No, I mean I don't know if he's right or not.

Atheist: Well, neither do I, but that's not what I asked.

Agnostic: The box is impervious

Atheist: Well, you sound just as dogmatic about our inability to know as he does about his private communications with the leprechaun.

Agnostic: Now you're just being rude

Atheist: Look, I'm going to open this box

Agnostic: Silly atheist....

(The atheist manages to drill a tiny hole in the box...)

Atheist: Look, it's not impervious! I've got a hole here. We may eventually be able to investigate this in more detail.

Theist: You switched boxes!

Atheist: No, this is the box.

Agnostic: It's STILL impervious; your little hole doesn't give you enough information to support your claim.

Atheist: I can continue to investigate...and so far, there's no evidence to support the theist's claims.

Theist: You switched boxes!

Atheist: No I didn't.

Theist: Then, um...he's hiding. He needs you to believe without seeing him, so he's hiding.

Atheist: That makes no sense.

Theist: The troll has created an illusory hole that is providing you with false information about what's in the box!

Atheist: /sigh

Agnostic: That might be possible, I really couldn't say.

Atheist: No, I bet you couldn't.

The theist walks away, to tell other people about the leprechaun in the box.

The agnostic tries not to be anywhere near either of them, while secretly keeping an optimistic eye on the atheist's activities.

The atheist goes about his life, occasionally finding new ways to investigate the box, but he tries to enjoy his life while preventing the theist from ruining it by imposing the leprechaun's rules on everyone.
 
StormingWynn said:
Well people were arguing, not you, that the belief in God is not logical.
Click to expand...
index-1.gif
 
codswallop said:
I must have missed that part. You never really explained why it's reasonable to believe in a god but not in unicorns, leprechauns, and the Holy FSM.
Click to expand...

I never said you can believe in God but not in unicorns etc. I said I choose to believe in what I want which is God. You can believe in anything you want, but until someone can prove those things don't exist, they cannot prove you wrong.
 
StormingWynn said:
I never said you can believe in God but not in unicorns etc. I said I choose to believe in what I want which is God. You can believe in anything you want, but until someone can prove those things don't exist, they cannot prove you wrong.
Click to expand...
:laugh:
 
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