Do you have to be at the top of your class at any school to match into competitive specialties?

[Browns99]

Well an adcom on here just confirmed what I said, so believe it if you want.



Lol



That’s actually not surprising. Top IM is very competitive.

So, ONE adcom confirmed it and now that means " most programs"...got it, LOL.

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[Dave1980]

I love how NYU seems to have taken over the #1 elite school everyone thinks of now and not Hopkins or Harvard. I guess that free tuition stunt is really working.

Dude, obviously it's a top school now. Maybe even THE top school. It was already really good to begin with and now it's free. A med school is primarily defined by the caliber of student it graduates and now NYU is now arguably the most competitive and desirable med school there is.

 

[efle]

Dude, obviously it's a top school now. Maybe even THE top school. It was already really good to begin with and now it's free. A med school is primarily defined by the caliber of student it graduates and now NYU is now arguably the most competitive and desirable med school there is.

I hope this narrative takes off so that other schools go tuition free. "Stop charging these few hundred students and you'll be top ranking in no time with this one easy trick! Top 5s hate it!"

 

[TelemarketingEnigma]

So is it usually the top 20% of scorers or do you have to be well liked amongst faculty?

Criteria vary by school, some publish them online if you’re really interested. Some break it into junior/senior rounds of selection, others do it all at once. For us, the top 40% of the class based on grades alone was eligible, then you had to fill out a long application including step scores, leadership, community service, and research, which was reviewed by a blinded committee. From there they picked a number equivalent to ~20% of the class. I don’t know how anything was weighted

 

[KnightDoc]

I hope this narrative takes off so that other schools go tuition free. "Stop charging these few hundred students and you'll be top ranking in no time with this one easy trick! Top 5s hate it!"

Most of their peers are in denial while others have quietly ramped up "recruitment money." Schools like Penn and Hopkins talk a good game about directing the money to those with demonstrating need while stepping up and matching merit offers when they don't want to lose someone. Other schools, like Harvard, however, are holding the line and just not doing merit scholarships.

The fact remains, however, it works. Everyone is afraid to be part of something new, until it has a track record because, well, it's only your future at stake. Make it tuition free, and then all bets are off. Just look at Kaiser and NYU-LI. This is why free tuition, at least for the first few years, is now part of the formula at any new school that aspires to not be in the bottom tier for at least the next generation.

 

[efle]

Most of their peers are in denial while others have quietly ramped up "recruitment money." Schools like Penn and Hopkins talk a good game about directing the money to those with demonstrating need while stepping up and matching merit offers when they don't want to lose someone. Other schools, like Harvard, however, are holding the line and just not doing merit scholarships.

The fact remains, however, it works. Everyone is afraid to be part of something new, until it has a track record because, well, it's only your future at stake. Make it tuition free, and then all bets are off. Just look at Kaiser and NYU-LI. This is why free tuition, at least for the first few years, is now part of the formula at any new school that aspires to not be in the bottom tier for at least the next generation.

Haha NYU is def guilty of talking nonsense themselves, I mean...free tuition so people can choose primary care? That should get everybody's eyes rolling

I'm a big fan of meeting full demonstrated need, but past that, going free tuition is just saving wealthy parents some cash

 

[doomer_md]

So, ONE adcom confirmed it and now that means " most programs"...got it, LOL.

SDN's own news page says Step 2 CK will probably take over as the screening tool. Also, you do realize that Step 1 going P/F happened just last year and hasn't affected any medical student class matching just yet? No one knows for sure yet. Find me evidence of residencies doing anything on the contrary and until you do, you haven't contributed anything useful either by your own definition.

 

[KnightDoc]

Haha NYU is def guilty of talking nonsense themselves, I mean...free tuition so people can choose primary care? That should get everybody's eyes rolling

I'm a big fan of meeting full demonstrated need, but past that, going free tuition is just saving wealthy parents some cash

This is definitely the rationale of those schools not going along, but ignores the fact that many parents are unwilling to pay, even if they can, and many independent adults do not want to place that burden on their parents.

More importantly, taking future income into account, even for primary care physicians, no one truly has "demonstrated need," regardless of how modest their financial circumstances while growing up. All the "demonstrated need" system does is saddle many MDs with hundreds of thousands in debt while providing relief to others, even though everyone has the ability to service the debt post graduation, regardless of their parents' financial means.

As you said, NYU's stated reason is questionable, although undoubtedly some will go into primary care because they are unburdened by at least $300K in debt. But we all know the real reason is what we have all been talking about. IMHO, there is nothing wrong with using financial resources to provide the same relief from burdensome tuition to all, without regard to the financial circumstances of the parents of independent adults.

 

[srirachamayonnaise]

This is definitely the rationale of those schools not going along, but ignores the fact that many parents are unwilling to pay, even if they can, and many independent adults do not want to place that burden on their parents.

More importantly, taking future income into account, even for primary care physicians, no one truly has "demonstrated need," regardless of how modest their financial circumstances while growing up. All the "demonstrated need" system does is saddle many MDs with hundreds of thousands in debt while providing relief to others, even though everyone has the ability to service the debt post graduation, regardless of their parents' financial means.

As you said, NYU's stated reason is questionable, although undoubtedly some will go into primary care because they are unburdened by at least $300K in debt. But we all know the real reason is what we have all been talking about. IMHO, there is nothing wrong with using financial resources to provide the same relief from burdensome tuition to all, without regard to the financial circumstances of the parents of independent adults.

Whatever NYU has done, it’s still NYU, the McDonald of higher education.

 

[throwaway01564]

Whatever NYU has done, it’s still NYU, the McDonald of higher education.

You're so pressed about them💀, their rise making you insecure for some reason?

 

[ccp005]

Additionally COL in Manhattan is like, ~5-6k per month living extremely frugally, probably more if we are being realistic.

You are VASTLY overestimating COL in Manhattan lol. By an insane amount. Sure, you can get that high if you live in the nicest highrises in the city by yourself... otherwise no. I can tell you aren't speaking from experience. There are affordable ways to live in manhattan.

I have friends in Manhattan paying $900 a month for a good apartment with roommates. It would get even cheaper if they decided to move to Queens or Brooklyn w a 35 min commute. You could even live in The East Village for $1200-$1500 a month. Groceries aren't bad either at Trader Joe's, as well as chinatown which are nearby to EV. If you live Midtown they can get expensive, but a 10 min train ride away and you have access to cheap groceries.

So where are those extra 4-5 thousand coming from?

It obviously can get expensive if you just have to live in the celebrity neighborhoods by yourself with big square footage like you'd get in the midwest, but let's not act like affordable options aren't available.

 

[srirachamayonnaise]

You're so pressed about them💀, their rise making you insecure for some reason?

I am a Columbian, so by nature I think NYU is just a second tier school. No New Yorkers will ever think NYU is an elite school. Just look at their buildings scattered all over lower Manhattan. It’s practically a glorified community college.

 

[throwaway01564]

I am a Columbian, so by nature I think NYU is just a second tier school. No New Yorkers will ever think NYU is an elite school. Just look at their buildings scattered all over lower Manhattan. It’s practically a glorified community college.

Idk, I would choose NYU over Columbia for sure due to their edge in specialties I'm interested, especially with the 3 year program. Not everyone shares your opinion lol

 

[srirachamayonnaise]

Idk, I would choose NYU over Columbia for sure due to their edge in specialties I'm interested, especially with the 3 year program. Not everyone shares your opinion lol

I totally understand. I didn’t even apply to NYU.

 

[efle]

This is definitely the rationale of those schools not going along, but ignores the fact that many parents are unwilling to pay, even if they can, and many independent adults do not want to place that burden on their parents.

More importantly, taking future income into account, even for primary care physicians, no one truly has "demonstrated need," regardless of how modest their financial circumstances while growing up. All the "demonstrated need" system does is saddle many MDs with hundreds of thousands in debt while providing relief to others, even though everyone has the ability to service the debt post graduation, regardless of their parents' financial means.

As you said, NYU's stated reason is questionable, although undoubtedly some will go into primary care because they are unburdened by at least $300K in debt. But we all know the real reason is what we have all been talking about. IMHO, there is nothing wrong with using financial resources to provide the same relief from burdensome tuition to all, without regard to the financial circumstances of the parents of independent adults.

The wrong part is that the rest of the university system usually isnt 100% loan free for people with demonstrable need. Better places exist to spend it, in other words. I think we already had a conversation about this though where it became clear your parents are much wealthier than you knew until you saw the kinds of EFCs private universities were quoting you. In most cases when parents have extra assets/cash (by the schools eval who actually know the numbers I mean, not by their kids impression) the parents are willing to spend that for their kids education and happiness. When people are truly independent they can file to be evaluated as such (e.g. nontraditional student who has been financially 100% separate from parents for years).

NYU being a T10 imposter is by far my favorite SDN meme. Undergrad seems to be going the same way. Spicy for now while its happening but no doubt in a decade itll be accepted, that's how it worked for rising colleges during our lives like Vandy and Northwestern.

 

[Browns99]

SDN's own news page says Step 2 CK will probably take over as the screening tool. Also, you do realize that Step 1 going P/F happened just last year and hasn't affected any medical student class matching just yet? No one knows for sure yet. Find me evidence of residencies doing anything on the contrary and until you do, you haven't contributed anything useful either by your own definition.

Dude, please read carefully so you can better understand......"PROBABLY", key word and no one knows for sure, SDN is not making that call, so quoting a news page, well, C'mon. Your words "I hear most programs are just using Step 2 CK now." Please supply the facts to support what you said, that's all.

I'm not arguing what may be a possibility nin the future, may very well happen....It's just that, when people post with a limited sample of information and then say something like most programs, is just wrong without data to support.

 

[KnightDoc]

The wrong part is that the rest of the university system usually isnt 100% loan free for people with demonstrable need. Better places exist to spend it, in other words. I think we already had a conversation about this though where it became clear your parents are much wealthier than you knew until you saw the kinds of EFCs private universities were quoting you. In most cases when parents have extra assets/cash (by the schools eval who actually know the numbers I mean, not by their kids impression) the parents are willing to spend that for their kids education and happiness. When people are truly independent they can file to be evaluated as such (e.g. nontraditional student who has been financially 100% separate from parents for years).

NYU being a T10 imposter is by far my favorite SDN meme. Undergrad seems to be going the same way. Spicy for now while its happening but no doubt in a decade itll be accepted, that's how it worked for rising colleges during our lives like Vandy and Northwestern.

Yup. I totally agree with everything you are saying, right up to the part about grad school or professional school being the same as UG. Of course, this isn't about the rest of the university system. Grad schools typcially operate independently, while kicking back some money to the parent in return for the affiliation. A med school, law school or business school's superior ability to raise funds to subsidize tuition does not mean that the affiliated graduate school of navel gazing should have a claim on those funds to subsidize those with "demonstrable need," however that is defined.

As I said before, regardless of the financial circumstances of one's parents, no US med student has "demonstrable need" after taking future earnings into account. "Truly" independent or not, everyone lucky enough to be allowed to enroll in a US MD program has the same excellent ability to repay the full cost of the education, living expenses and all, including interest, regardless of whether they are going to be a pediatrician or a pediatric neurosurgeon.

Deciding someone coming from a low-SES background should get that opportunity for free while some other 25 year old's parents should be taxed at 100% of the COA for the same education is arbitrary. The fact that NYU decided to go raise an endowment to make the education available to everyone on equal terms, and hope that successful people in the future pay it forward, was a brilliant idea that is having the desired effect.

The fact that all schools don't share that philosophy is why schools like Harvard are now losing full pay students to schools like NYU, and why schools like Penn and Hopkins have found it necessary to find "recruitment money" to keep some students they would otherwise lose. Harvard will always be Harvard, but we are now at the point that NYU is also Harvard, except in eyes of some like @srirachamayonnaise, and that's fine. I don't know his financial situation, but I'll bet he isn't full pay, and, if he is, good for him! Most people are not lucky enough to be in the position to be so casual with $300K, no matter how much they anticipate earning in the future.

 

[Browns99]

Average indebtedness in itself is not a highly useful figure of merit, but think about it like this.

Students at schools like NYU, Harvard, etc. are already extremely stratified towards the upper echelon of wealth. I would wager that a significant proportion of students at these schools do not have to worry about tuition in the first place, so indebtedness for them will be zero regardless of school. For students who actually need the tuition, they will get it anyways (or near it) at peer schools. NYU has the worst living/housing assistance program of the NYC schools from what I've heard from students picking between them.

Additionally COL in Manhattan is like, ~5-6k per month living extremely frugally, probably more if we are being realistic. Run the numbers, compare schools....anyways. If you are purely arguing that a middle-class person could benefit in NYC relative to other schools by going to NYU, yeah I would probably agree, but it's still a LOT of money if you compare outside of NY.

Ah No, the COL in Manhattan is not like 5-6k, my gosh, the misinformation on this site is astounding....the old " from what I heard."

 

[voxveritatisetlucis]

Ah No, the COL in Manhattan is not like 5-6k, my gosh, the misinformation on this site is astounding....the old " from what I heard."

The initial figure is inflated but rents are way up. Many companies/individuals who own property took a haircut during the pandemic and are now looking to make it up.

Even during the virus median rent in Manhattan was 3k. Clearly you can get roommates or something but most people in med school are at an age where they don’t want to rehash undergrad dorm style living

 

[doomer_md]

Dude, please read carefully so you can better understand......"PROBABLY", key word and no one knows for sure, SDN is not making that call, so quoting a news page, well, C'mon. Your words "I hear most programs are just using Step 2 CK now." Please supply the facts to support what you said, that's all.

I'm not arguing what may be a possibility nin the future, may very well happen....It's just that, when people post with a limited sample of information and then say something like most programs, is just wrong without data to support.

You have provided absolutely nothing useful to this thread except try to appear smarter than you are by constantly asking for proof for what is presented as speculation. Just stop posting.

 

[efle]

Yup. I totally agree with everything you are saying, right up to the part about grad school or professional school being the same as UG. Of course, this isn't about the rest of the university system. Grad schools typcially operate independently, while kicking back some money to the parent in return for the affiliation. A med school, law school or business school's superior ability to raise funds to subsidize tuition does not mean that the affiliated graduate school of navel gazing should have a claim on those funds to subsidize those with "demonstrable need," however that is defined.

As I said before, regardless of the financial circumstances of one's parents, no US med student has "demonstrable need" after taking future earnings into account. "Truly" independent or not, everyone lucky enough to be allowed to enroll in a US MD program has the same excellent ability to repay the full cost of the education, living expenses and all, including interest, regardless of whether they are going to be a pediatrician or a pediatric neurosurgeon.

Deciding someone coming from a low-SES background should get that opportunity for free while some other 25 year old's parents should be taxed at 100% of the COA for the same education is arbitrary. The fact that NYU decided to go raise an endowment to make the education available to everyone on equal terms, and hope that successful people in the future pay it forward, was a brilliant idea that is having the desired effect.

The fact that all schools don't share that philosophy is why schools like Harvard are now losing full pay students to schools like NYU, and why schools like Penn and Hopkins have found it necessary to find "recruitment money" to keep some students they would otherwise lose. Harvard will always be Harvard, but we are now at the point that NYU is also Harvard, except in eyes of some like @srirachamayonnaise, and that's fine. I don't know his financial situation, but I'll bet he isn't full pay, and, if he is, good for him! Most people are not lucky enough to be in the position to be so casual with $300K, no matter how much they anticipate earning in the future.

Dude, you have to realize how it comes off when you pitch that poor kids arent any more deserving of aid, regardless of the earning potential for the degree.

 

[voxveritatisetlucis]

Dude, you have to realize how it comes off when you pitch that poor kids arent any more deserving of aid, regardless of the earning potential for the degree.

Some people can’t even get loans because parents have too bad of credit to co-sign

I’m surprised that banks don’t loan to all MD students at ultra low rates with no co signer. How often do med students default on their loans? Must be orders of magnitude lower than other grad degrees.

 

[TelemarketingEnigma]

Some people can’t even get loans because parents have too bad of credit to co-sign

I’m surprised that banks don’t loan to all MD students at ultra low rates with no co signer. How often do med students default on their loans? Must be orders of magnitude lower than other grad degrees.

med school loans do not require a co-signer

edit: also, the rates are gonna be the same for everyone (too high). Unless you're taking out private loans or something

 

[deleted1114112]

Ah No, the COL in Manhattan is not like 5-6k, my gosh, the misinformation on this site is astounding....the old " from what I heard."

....I live here. Unless you live in a closet in Yorkville eating canned tuna and ramen everyday, you'll be paying a lot of. A decent studio is 3-4k alone.

NYU just effectively found a way to snag every top rich applicant/URM who now get to pocket 300k. 3% disadvantaged btw. Imagine the donations and the like that they will get down the line from these people.

 

[voxveritatisetlucis]

....I live here. Unless you live in a closet in Yorkville eating canned tuna and ramen everyday, you'll be paying a lot of. A decent studio is 3-4k alone.

NYU just effectively found a way to snag every top rich applicant/URM who now get to pocket 300k. 3% disadvantaged btw. Imagine the donations and the like that they will get down the line from these people.

Wouldn’t peer schools be more likely to get higher donations since money is no object people choosing them over NYU?

 

[Dogruffle01]

Idk, I would choose NYU over Columbia for sure due to their edge in specialties I'm interested, especially with the 3 year program. Not everyone shares your opinion lol

The 3-year program is a gem that most people don’t realize about NYU. Yes, free tuition is nice , but having a freee residency pic essentially makes the entire curriculum pass/fail. Your not getting in debt ( living expenses) for 1 extra year, and you’re making attending money a year earlier, and you get to go to a T20 residency. You can literally focus on whatever you want during med school because the bag is already secured.

And you not even bound to it. If anything I wish more schools would adopt the 3 year track , NYU is literally the only school that has this for competitive specialties.

So please NYU admissions, can I get one of those acceptance call?

 

[KnightDoc]

Some people can’t even get loans because parents have too bad of credit to co-sign

I’m surprised that banks don’t loan to all MD students at ultra low rates with no co signer. How often do med students default on their loans? Must be orders of magnitude lower than other grad degrees.

??? Not for med school. Unsubsidized federal direct loans are available to all up to the COA, except at schools like CNU that do not participate in the program. Parents' credit is not part of the equation. I'm also pretty sure that private loans are widely available for med students. Ultra low interest rates are in the eye of the beholder and are set by the market, but, in general, med school student loan interest rates ARE ultra low, considering they are not backed by any collateral.

 

[KnightDoc]

Dude, you have to realize how it comes off when you pitch that poor kids arent any more deserving of aid, regardless of the earning potential for the degree.

Sorry. I get the need to attract the traditionally disenfranchised through financial incentives, but "deserving" is a very loaded term. The "rich" young adult whose parents are nearing retirement and are not comfortable sending up to $500K to a med school is no less "deserving" of graduating debt free than the person whose working class parents have little to no savings. They are both going to be making very healthy incomes in a relatively short period of time.

Anyway, why the hostility? No one is talking about taking anything away from need-based programs. People act as though there is a fixed pot of money, and schools are deciding whether to give it to poor students or wealthy ones. NYU went out and raised a ton of new money to do this, and, to my knowledge, every school that funds merit scholarships does so with dedicated funds, not with financial aid targeted to those with need.

 

[KnightDoc]

....I live here. Unless you live in a closet in Yorkville eating canned tuna and ramen everyday, you'll be paying a lot of. A decent studio is 3-4k alone.

NYU just effectively found a way to snag every top rich applicant/URM who now get to pocket 300k. 3% disadvantaged btw. Imagine the donations and the like that they will get down the line from these people.

This is definitely part of the equation.

 

[voxveritatisetlucis]

How does fed borrow money at .25% then loan it out to students at 6%?

 

[KnightDoc]

Wouldn’t peer schools be more likely to get higher donations since money is no object people choosing them over NYU?

Not necessarily. The level of gratitude might not be at the same level, since their grads did not receive a free education, and they might feel like they have already made their donations through all the money they are now paying back in loans. Keep in mind that money is an object to most people, especially those who have some.

The fact remains that very few, if any, people are presently choosing to be full pay at a peer institution over a full scholarship at NYU. NYU only offers around 135 of those per year, and around 90 of them enroll at NYU. So that leaves around 45 people per year who choose a peer school over NYU. I guarantee you that just about ALL of them are not paying significantly more for the privilege, either through need-based or merit money.

 

[KnightDoc]

How does fed borrow money at .25% then loan it out to students at 6%?

Seriously? You work on Wall Street and don't understand how this works? Given the level of non-performing loans, defaults and write-offs, do you really think the federal student loan program does not LOSE billions upon billions of dollars per year, in spite of borrowing at 0% and lending at 6%?

Yes, it's true that non-defaulting med students are subsidizing defaulting unemployed philosophers, but still. The alternative is private loans. Do you not understand how banks would borrow at one rate and lend at a higher rate, and that free market competition determines what those rates are?

 

[deleted1009115]

I just wanted to add (since y’all are talking about top-top schools), that University of Minnesota is now true P/F for all 4 years with no internal ranking, starting with the M1 class. As of now, we still have application-only AOA, but I’ve heard rumors they’re moving to remove that as well. I think more schools will start moving in this direction, but I guess we’ll see.

 

[efle]

Sorry. I get the need to attract the traditionally disenfranchised through financial incentives, but "deserving" is a very loaded term. The "rich" young adult whose parents are nearing retirement and are not comfortable sending up to $500K to a med school is no less "deserving" of graduating debt free than the person whose working class parents have little to no savings. They are both going to be making very healthy incomes in a relatively short period of time.

Anyway, why the hostility? No one is talking about taking anything away from need-based programs. People act as though there is a fixed pot of money, and schools are deciding whether to give it to poor students or wealthy ones. NYU went out and raised a ton of new money to do this, and, to my knowledge, every school that funds merit scholarships does so with dedicated funds, not with financial aid targeted to those with need.

Again because resources are scarce and telling a bunch of donors to give $ for improving "access to primary care" for NYU med students when you could be asking for $ to let 0 EFC students in other divisions graduate without debt is an opportunity cost I dislike. You can say divisions are financially separate bit you know there are donors who can be approached with multiple angles and NYU picked the free MDs. Were never gonna agree on the fundamentals here though, schools factor everything into EFC including retirement savings and I'm much more inclined to believe your parents are wealthier than you know than I am to believe a school is harming their ability to retire comfortably. Besides, by your own logic, arent you about to make so much money with your MD that taking the hit yourself wont have any significant negative impact on you?

 

[voxveritatisetlucis]

Ken langone decided to donate because he is a New Yorker and previously was a big donor to NYU langone medical center. He probably could have given to a different New York school but I guess he chose NYU maybe because he went to stern. Not sure though.

 

[efle]

Ken langone decided to donate because he is a New Yorker and previously was a big donor to NYU langone medical center. He probably could have given to a different New York school but I guess he chose NYU maybe because he went to stern. Not sure though.

Similar with Bloomberg and Hopkins, I'm sure they discuss where to allocate the money, it's not just "hey I have an extra few hundred milly and I specifically want to use it for wealthy family's kids to pay less EFC"

WashU had also been raising a ton of funding and just announced theyll be formally need blind like most of the other t20s. That's the kind of thing I'd rather see.

 

[KnightDoc]

Again because resources are scarce and telling a bunch of donors to give $ for improving "access to primary care" for NYU med students when you could be asking for $ to let 0 EFC students in other divisions graduate without debt is an opportunity cost I dislike. You can say divisions are financially separate bit you know there are donors who can be approached with multiple angles and NYU picked the free MDs. Were never gonna agree on the fundamentals here though, schools factor everything into EFC including retirement savings and I'm much more inclined to believe your parents are wealthier than you know than I am to believe a school is harming their ability to retire comfortably. Besides, by your own logic, arent you about to make so much money with your MD that taking the hit yourself wont have any significant negative impact on you?

Yes. I am about to make as much money as anyone else, and am not saying I deserve a handout. Whatever my parents have managed to sock away is their business. They raised me and put me through school. I am now a fully independent recent college graduate with a low paying job and the same financial resources as any other poor recent college graduate, regardless of the financial circumstances of people they happen to be related to -- parents, grandparents, cousins, siblings, whatever.

Yes, donors can be approached with any angle at all, and they can choose to buy into the pitch or not. Money is NOT finite. The NYU endowment is now millions of dollars greater than it was before, and NYU chose to use that money to make it easier for people like me. What a waste, when I can easily borrow the money and the donated funds can go to pay for a select few of my classmates instead, determined by how much money their parents make and have saved!

All you're saying is all that money could have been put to better use by directing it away from people like me and towards people like you. Fine. You're entitled to your opinion, and, as you said, we're not going to agree here.

The only difference is, I see the validity of providing financial incentives to bringing under represented and previously disenfranchised people in, even if they don't "need" the help under my definition. And you think people like my parents should be taxed, or I should have to borrow hundreds of thousands of dollars, because people like me don't "deserve" help from generous donors.

My parents worked hard and were lucky, so I don't "deserve" to not have $400K +/- in debt if my parents want to keep their money, but someone whose parents don't have any money does "deserve" a free education, even though we are all going to be working side by side, making the same money and living the same lives after residency. I don't agree, but I totally get where you are coming from. Please get back to me in 20 years when you have made it and politicians are telling you how much of your hard earned money you "deserve" to keep, because they have better ways to spend your money than you do.

 

[efle]

Yes. I am about to make as much money as anyone else, and am not saying I deserve a handout. Whatever my parents have managed to sock away is their business. They raised me and put me through school. I am now a fully independent recent college graduate with a low paying job and the same financial resources as any other poor recent college graduate, regardless of the financial circumstances of people they happen to be related to -- parents, grandparents, cousins, siblings, whatever.

Yes, donors can be approached with any angle at all, and they can choose to buy into the pitch or not. Money is NOT finite. The NYU endowment is now millions of dollars greater than it was before, and NYU chose to use that money to make it easier for people like me. What a waste, when I can easily borrow the money and the donated funds can go to pay for a select few of my classmates instead, determined by how much money their parents make and have saved!

All you're saying is all that money could have been put to better use by directing it away from people like me and towards people like you. Fine. You're entitled to your opinion, and, as you said, we're not going to agree here.

The only difference is, I see the validity of providing financial incentives to bringing under represented and previously disenfranchised people in, even if they don't "need" the help under my definition. And you think people like my parents should be taxed, or I should have to borrow hundreds of thousands of dollars, because people like me don't "deserve" help from generous donors.

My parents worked hard and were lucky, so I don't "deserve" to not have $400K +/- in debt if my parents want to keep their money, but someone whose parents don't have any money does "deserve" a free education, even though we are all going to be working side by side, making the same money and living the same lives after residency. I don't agree, but I totally get where you are coming from. Please get back to me in 20 years when you have made it and politicians are telling you how much of your hard earned money you "deserve" to keep, because they have better ways to spend your money than you do.

I think the missing piece here is that you're an outlier if you have wealthy parents and they don't agree to cover EFC, or more. I had a lot of friends from wealthy families in college and medschool and none of them were scrimping and saving. As an example AAMC data shows the vast majority of med students had no college loans, and when they did, the median was tiny (~6/yr) which wouldn't even cover the cheapest dorms on most campuses. Parents are overwhelmingly paying the way. If you're in your position you're getting screwed for sure but that's because you're 1 in 100 and there's no alternative system - if we let parents say their kid is on their own to get massive aid packages, everyone would claim that.

 

[Angus Avagadro]

Some do care about AOA, at least as a way to screen for interviews. For instance, a "top" surgical sub-speciality residency faculty spoke to us about how doing quick screens like AOA and Step 1 >240 is a way to get to a more readable amount of applications. Then of course they also have to find a way to screen/read some non-AOA apps which according to him was a combination of having the student on an away rotation, going to that school for med school, and personal phone calls from big names in the field or alumni of the residency.

But I agree solely focusing on pre-clinical grades has never been a thing and won't be now. It is really AOA or not, and if not then it doesn't matter. And even then, AOA is not even top 5 of getting an interview or ranked highly, at least not based on survey data or anecdotes.

Sorry for the grainy pic, but couldn't copy a pdf. I have had this conversation many times. There is actually some data to review. People can criticize the data with regard to sample size, etc. But it is data and not anecdotal.

To answer the OP, no, you don't have to be tops in your class to match a competitive specialty. But, it doesn't hurt, as many applicants you will be competing against are. I believe AOA is somewhat school dependent. My wife's school, if memory serves me, you needed to be top 10% for AOA.
With respect to preclinical grades, I have sat on resident selection committees, and written LOR's for my students in the past. I always mention class rank if it might enhance their app. If you look at the PD survey from 2021, you will note:

Class rank, by quartile is considered in Who to Interview by 68% of PD's surveyed.
AOA membership is only considere by 50.8% to be a criteria to invite for interview
Class rank is rated 3.8 on a scale of 5 in level of importance and ranks 6th in Importance for Interview invite
Grades in clerkship are more important than preclinical grades
AOA membership is 3.5 out of 5 on a scale of importance
Note Step ck scores rank high in importance also.
MSPE, i.e., Deans Letter ranks 2nd in importance. Our school puts class rank by quartile in this letter.

Tldr, Class rank and Step CK are considered important in deciding who to interview by the majority of PD's surveyed. Roughly two thirds

Also note the importance of not having red flags like board failures and and if your school is on probation.

 

[KnightDoc]

I think the missing piece here is that you're an outlier if you have wealthy parents and they don't agree to cover EFC, or more. I had a lot of friends from wealthy families in college and medschool and none of them were scrimping and saving. As an example AAMC data shows the vast majority of med students had no college loans, and when they did, the median was tiny (~6/yr) which wouldn't even cover the cheapest dorms on most campuses. Parents are overwhelmingly paying the way. If you're in your position you're getting screwed for sure but that's because you're 1 in 100 and there's no alternative system - if we let parents say their kid is on their own to get massive aid packages, everyone would claim that.

Nonsense. "Wealthy" is in the eye of the beholder.

I grew up in a regular house. My parents drove two regular cars. Public schools, right through college. My parents are wage earners. Not doctors, not business owners, not partners in big time law firms or Wall Street banks.

"Wealthy" because they have a six figure income and have some money in the bank. Not millionaires. Less than 10 years from Social Security, they are not in a position to send around half a million dollars to a med school, AFTER UG, in order to launch me on my way. I don't consider myself screwed at all. I've had a nice life up to this point. My parents don't owe me anything.

I'm betting most people who are ineligible for financial aid are in a similar situation. Regardless, even if they were millionaires, it would still be a tax on them, since I am an independent college graduate, taking one of those gap years med schools love so much. I'm not a dependent on their tax return, I don't live in their house, and they are not the ones applying to med school. Just like around 3/4 of all matriculants nowadays.

By the way, you are correct about everyone being eligible for aid if parents' resources are excluded. Which brings us back to square one -- what's wrong with that? After all, we are training for careers in medicine, not social work. Beyond wanting to attract the under represented (a social aim, not a financial one), what's the financial justification for taxing "wealthy" parents while subsidizing others who can otherwise borrow and pay back loans over time? In the rest of the country (IRS, health insurance, etc.), financial dependence ends at college, not grad school!

 

[efle]

"Wealthy" because they have a six figure income and have some money in the bank. Not millionaires.

Yeah, I was right, you have absolutely no grasp of their networth. Dual six figure incomes with halfway decent ROIs over the last few decades are way, way into the two comma club

 

[efle]

View attachment 344368


Sorry for the grainy pic, but couldn't copy a pdf. I have had this conversation many times. There is actually some data to review. People can criticize the data with regard to sample size, etc. But it is data and not anecdotal.

To answer the OP, no, you don't have to be tops in your class to match a competitive specialty. But, it doesn't hurt, as many applicants you will be competing against are. I believe AOA is somewhat school dependent. My wife's school, if memory serves me, you needed to be top 10% for AOA.
With respect to preclinical grades, I have sat on resident selection committees, and written LOR's for my students in the past. I always mention class rank if it might enhance their app. If you look at the PD survey from 2021, you will note:

Class rank, by quartile is considered in Who to Interview by 68% of PD's surveyed.
AOA membership is only considere by 50.8% to be a criteria to invite for interview
Class rank is rated 3.8 on a scale of 5 in level of importance and ranks 6th in Importance for Interview invite
Grades in clerkship are more important than preclinical grades
AOA membership is 3.5 out of 5 on a scale of importance
Note Step ck scores rank high in importance also.
MSPE, i.e., Deans Letter ranks 2nd in importance. Our school puts class rank by quartile in this letter.

Tldr, Class rank and Step CK are considered important in deciding who to interview by the majority of PD's surveyed. Roughly two thirds

Also note the importance of not having red flags like board failures and and if your school is on probation.

Also useful for soothing the people who keep saying med school reputation will be all that matters when Step 1 is P/F, it's apparently less often considered than whether your school was accredited!

 

[voxveritatisetlucis]

Also useful for soothing the people who keep saying med school reputation will be all that matters when Step 1 is P/F, it's apparently less often considered than whether your school was accredited!

Couldn’t this just be a lie to not seem superficial/elitist? Iirc, med school surveys stopped asking about undergrad prestige because it caused a big uproar when it was ranked high importance

 

[efle]

Couldn’t this just be a lie to not seem superficial/elitist? Iirc, med school surveys stopped asking about undergrad prestige because it caused a big uproar when it was ranked high importance

Idk personally, I buy it. When you look at the resident cohorts even for big names like MGH or Hopkins, the majority of people are from non-top-20 schools. And in charting outcomes they show the percent of matches from NIH top 40 schools - surprisingly it's about the same percent as the overall applicant pool even for fields like Ortho, Derm, etc.

 

[efle]

Couldn’t this just be a lie to not seem superficial/elitist? Iirc, med school surveys stopped asking about undergrad prestige because it caused a big uproar when it was ranked high importance

Here's some numbers from charting outcomes 2020.

Percent from NIH top 40:

All Specialties 31%
Ortho 34
Plastics 34
Derm 41
Neurosurg 39
ENT 41

Not exactly a huge skew, considering this doesn't even control for step scores, which are higher on average at the upper ranking research powerhouses. If you could factor that in my guess is the gap would disappear entirely

 

[YCAGA]

"Wealthy" because they have a six figure income and have some money in the bank. Not millionaires. Less than 10 years from Social Security, they are not in a position to send around half a million dollars to a med school, AFTER UG, in order to launch me on my way. I don't consider myself screwed at all. I've had a nice life up to this point. My parents don't owe me anything.

Your parents are either millionaires by now or they are going to take a BIG lifestyle hit when they retire.

 

[deleted1025488]

Couldn’t this just be a lie to not seem superficial/elitist? Iirc, med school surveys stopped asking about undergrad prestige because it caused a big uproar when it was ranked high importance

I mean there will always be specific AOs/PDs/schools/etc. who care more than others. Especially at the higher levels, I'm sure who you are and recruiter's experiences with you during visiting rotations and whatnot, also letters from people they know, are way more important. Also n=1 but I know a family friend PD for a competitive specialty at a low T20 who told me they essentially only gives interviews to people recommended to him by a pal via phone call/email or otherwise, then gave me a literal sermon on the value of connections. Bleh.

 

[YCAGA]

Yeah, I was right, you have absolutely no grasp of their networth. Dual six figure incomes with halfway decent ROIs over the last few decades are way, way into the two comma club

They are talking about wealth but don't know millionaire doesn't mean making a million dollars a year

 

[YCAGA]

View attachment 344368


Sorry for the grainy pic, but couldn't copy a pdf. I have had this conversation many times. There is actually some data to review. People can criticize the data with regard to sample size, etc. But it is data and not anecdotal.

To answer the OP, no, you don't have to be tops in your class to match a competitive specialty. But, it doesn't hurt, as many applicants you will be competing against are. I believe AOA is somewhat school dependent. My wife's school, if memory serves me, you needed to be top 10% for AOA.
With respect to preclinical grades, I have sat on resident selection committees, and written LOR's for my students in the past. I always mention class rank if it might enhance their app. If you look at the PD survey from 2021, you will note:

Class rank, by quartile is considered in Who to Interview by 68% of PD's surveyed.
AOA membership is only considere by 50.8% to be a criteria to invite for interview
Class rank is rated 3.8 on a scale of 5 in level of importance and ranks 6th in Importance for Interview invite
Grades in clerkship are more important than preclinical grades
AOA membership is 3.5 out of 5 on a scale of importance
Note Step ck scores rank high in importance also.
MSPE, i.e., Deans Letter ranks 2nd in importance. Our school puts class rank by quartile in this letter.

Tldr, Class rank and Step CK are considered important in deciding who to interview by the majority of PD's surveyed. Roughly two thirds

Also note the importance of not having red flags like board failures and and if your school is on probation.

No worries. For future reference, if you have a Mac it is Command+Shift+4 and then drag over the chart to do a custom screenshot and if you have Windows search for the clip tool in the start menu (or whatever it is called now). If you're on Linux then you don't need my help and if you are on FreeBSD then thanks for keeping the haldol industry booming.

18% response rate is not great but you are right at least it is some type of data.

 

[KnightDoc]

Your parents are either millionaires by now or they are going to take a BIG lifestyle hit when they retire.

Okay. I haven't done an audit. My point is, regardless of what they do or don't have, why should they be taxed if I want to be a doctor?

And, more importantly, besides the social justice goals of opening the profession up to those previously excluded, which is really done more through admissions than financial aid, what is the financial justification for saying those who graduate into a $250K+ career from a low-SES background should do so debt free while everyone else is on their own? Again, I am not begrudging anyone any outside financial assistance they receive, but am asking this in response to those who would begrudge me.