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third year sucks, period
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jcu said:
One of these doesn't belong :p
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not based on my experience...thats actually the one thing that has been pretty consistent with the psych residents/physicians ive worked with
 
I feel you OP- I have dreaded all of my rotations 3rd/4th year besides 3 of them (they did not involve patient contact). and yes, one of those specialties has been born over here...
 
3rd year OB was the only one I truly dreaded. I was too tired on Surgery to have any kind of emotion. I found internal and inpatient peds interesting enough. Psych, FM, and outpatient peds had good enough schedules where I could look towards the end of the day/weekend when I had to go in. 3rd year still sucks overall though

4th year has been great and I haven't dreaded any of my rotations.
 
2012mdc said:
3rd year OB was the only one I truly dreaded. I was too tired on Surgery to have any kind of emotion. I found internal and inpatient peds interesting enough. Psych, FM, and outpatient peds had good enough schedules where I could look towards the end of the day/weekend when I had to go in. 3rd year still sucks overall though

4th year has been great and I haven't dreaded any of my rotations.
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you give me hope, 100 days exactly till 3rd year is over for me
also, just finished obgyn today, eff yea!
 
Not right now with all the colostomy bags, fondling people's anus, smelling ****, eviscerated bowels n all the other ****...
 
I wonder if things have gotten worse during third year than it used to be. All the older docs (retiring age now) I talked to before I went to medschool talked about how awesome third year was. They were all like, "By the time I got to the end of every rotation I thought for sure thats what I was going to do, but then I thought the next was even better"

Or they always say "I almost died 1st/2nd year, but thankfully 3rd year was so much better"

Maybe in the "old days" medstudents had more freedom to do interesting/exciting/important things?
 
surftheiop said:
I wonder if things have gotten worse during third year than it used to be. All the older docs (retiring age now) I talked to before I went to medschool talked about how awesome third year was. They were all like, "By the time I got to the end of every rotation I thought for sure thats what I was going to do, but then I thought the next was even better"

Or they always say "I almost died 1st/2nd year, but thankfully 3rd year was so much better"

Maybe in the "old days" medstudents had more freedom to do interesting/exciting/important things?
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That's how I felt about third year and that was last year for me. All my rotations were really good, even though we were there every day and in some rotations for long hours. In at least half but in many cases most to all rotations we were allowed to do things independently and all rotations were structured with an emphasis on education. They were busy but involved and the residents in all the fields were happy and interesting in their own right. I'd say on those rotations where I was very busy like say medicine where I did q4 30 hr call with only a couple hours of sleep I wouldn't have said I liked it or would have preferred being there to somewhere fun but it actually was pretty fun because I was allowed to do alot and learn alot and carry 3-4 patients(split the team with the intern) under a senior. The rotations where I was less busy(like outpatient/clinics) were actually more of a drag because you'd spend more of the day twiddling your thumbs even though they'd be less hours and waking up late.
 
officedepot said:
I actually don't think it matters much what field you want to go into when it comes to hating 3rd year. Think about it. You go from year 1 and 2 where the most you have to worry about is a test 4 weeks away with no required attendance at class. There were times I didn't show up for 3 weeks and only studied the last five days and still did well. It was awesome.

Then you get to 3rd year where, for the entire year... you have to get up very early and work with people and fields you did not choose (for good reason regardless of course). You have to "work" all day constantly on the look out trying to not mess up and then go home and study for big tests every 6 weeks or so. You also have to go in on weekends. A student is largely useless (for good reason of course), patients don't like seeing us and we have essentially no say in their care. On some rotations you stand for hours doing nothing, write pointless practice notes no one will read, get no respect from anyone, etc. etc.

Hating third year is beyond specialty choice. I only like a rotation if I work with cool people and the hours are easy (and the patients aren't peds or pregnant women). I never understood the occasional student absolutely loving a rotation completely overlooking all the other crap they have to put up with.

4th year is better because: you choose your rotations; you are probably interested in those rotations; you get more respect (slightly) from those around you; you actually know something about the field you are rotating on before you start; you don't have crap shelf exams; etc etc.
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no doubt 4th year is better, and there a lot of thigns about 3rd year that i hate, many of which you mentioned. But I wouldn't say that third year sucks. When you are on a rotation that you could potentiall see yourself doing for the rest of your life, those petty things don't matter anymore. altho that being said, i feel maybe our experiences have been pretty different. For the most part, my patients have been okay with seeing me, have been cooperative, my attendings have been great, the notes I write are read and I am given feedback, and i am given respect by my colleagues. This is not to say that everyone does this, but most of them do.
 
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surftheiop said:
I wonder if things have gotten worse during third year than it used to be. All the older docs (retiring age now) I talked to before I went to medschool talked about how awesome third year was. They were all like, "By the time I got to the end of every rotation I thought for sure thats what I was going to do, but then I thought the next was even better"

Or they always say "I almost died 1st/2nd year, but thankfully 3rd year was so much better"

Maybe in the "old days" medstudents had more freedom to do interesting/exciting/important things?
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I definitely think 30-40 years ago...med. students go to do a whole lot more. Now...it is very limited, relatively speaking.
 
RySerr21 said:
no doubt 4th year is better, and there a lot of thigns about 3rd year that i hate, many of which you mentioned. But I wouldn't say that third year sucks. When you are on a rotation that you could potentiall see yourself doing for the rest of your life, those petty things don't matter anymore. altho that being said, i feel maybe our experiences have been pretty different. For the most part, my patients have been okay with seeing me, have been cooperative, my attendings have been great, the notes I write are read and I am given feedback, and i am given respect by my colleagues. This is not to say that everyone does this, but most of them do.
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As far as enjoyment of the actual "work" or studying my experience has been M4>M2>M3>M1

As far as overall happiness (adding in social life and stuff like that) - M4>M1>M3=M2

M3 can really mess up your social life on inpatient rotations with weekend duties. Having to miss weddings and fun trips with close friends sucked a lot. Being stuck on nights while your good friends are going out also was annoying. This was when I was the least happy in med school, even worse than Step 1 crunch time. And no matter how you spin it being forced to wake up early everyday and do something you have little to no interest in gets old really quick.

But the outpatient rotations during M3 had decent schedules and easier shelf exams so I had a great time during those months and was more active socially than even 1st year.

It's all relative and extremely variable but in my experience third year (and second year) both suck when compared to 1st and 4th year. The last day of 3rd year is in my top 3 for greatest days so far in med school.
 
AlexMorph said:
I definitely think 30-40 years ago...med. students go to do a whole lot more. Now...it is very limited, relatively speaking.
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I think it's that, and the fact that it was considered normal to have to work absurd hours (the original reason people were called "residents" was because they literally lived in the hospital and had to be issued day passes in order to leave and go elsewhere like in the military). So the culture has also changed considerably.
 
surftheiop said:
I wonder if things have gotten worse during third year than it used to be. All the older docs (retiring age now) I talked to before I went to medschool talked about how awesome third year was. They were all like, "By the time I got to the end of every rotation I thought for sure thats what I was going to do, but then I thought the next was even better"

Or they always say "I almost died 1st/2nd year, but thankfully 3rd year was so much better"

Maybe in the "old days" medstudents had more freedom to do interesting/exciting/important things?
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... I haven't wanted to do everything I have done so far. But I think 3rd year is far, far more enjoyable than 1st and 2nd year.

It also isn't that hard to have a social life 3rd year. I've been encourage to go to weddings and my residents have never wanted me present for a post call day on weekends unless our own attending happened to be on call which has happened exactly once so far. I can't stay out all night anymore and my friends are willing to make uncertain plans when I am changing rotations, but I still get to see them all on a regular basis. Admittedly, most of my friends are not other third years at this point, but when my original class was going through third year we still got together every other week, just some people couldn't make it each time.
 
mdpdgirl said:
... I haven't wanted to do everything I have done so far. But I think 3rd year is far, far more enjoyable than 1st and 2nd year.

It also isn't that hard to have a social life 3rd year. I've been encourage to go to weddings and my residents have never wanted me present for a post call day on weekends unless our own attending happened to be on call which has happened exactly once so far. I can't stay out all night anymore and my friends are willing to make uncertain plans when I am changing rotations, but I still get to see them all on a regular basis. Admittedly, most of my friends are not other third years at this point, but when my original class was going through third year we still got together every other week, just some people couldn't make it each time.
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That's nice. All my inpatient rotations were 6 days on, 1 day off so I had to miss some significant stuff. Being far for med school didn't help but it was not a hindrance 1st or 2nd year due to having weekends off and a schedule planned out far in advance.
 
olemissbabydoc said:
Even though I've hated a couple rotations, it's generally significantly better than first and second year to me. Except surgery.
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Yeah, I remember seeing your posts on the day before you started it. How's it been going?
 
It's pretty rough. I love my upper level residents, but it's overall exhausting. I loathe the OR. And one of our interns is affectionately known as "scuttern".
 
2012mdc said:
As far as enjoyment of the actual "work" or studying my experience has been M4>M2>M3>M1

As far as overall happiness (adding in social life and stuff like that) - M4>M1>M3=M2

M3 can really mess up your social life on inpatient rotations with weekend duties. Having to miss weddings and fun trips with close friends sucked a lot. Being stuck on nights while your good friends are going out also was annoying. This was when I was the least happy in med school, even worse than Step 1 crunch time. And no matter how you spin it being forced to wake up early everyday and do something you have little to no interest in gets old really quick.

But the outpatient rotations during M3 had decent schedules and easier shelf exams so I had a great time during those months and was more active socially than even 1st year.

It's all relative and extremely variable but in my experience third year (and second year) both suck when compared to 1st and 4th year. The last day of 3rd year is in my top 3 for greatest days so far in med school.
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we just have a difference in opinion.....MS1 wasnt too bad just b/c most of the material wasnt that relevant or necessary to know beyond the exam, and with a P/F curriculum it wasn't hard to get by. Even tho the material was way better, the monotony of studying all the time made MS2 my least favorite year by faaaaaar. MS3 has its negatives, many of which youve mentioned, but i think its definitely been the most fun ive had in the 3 years in terms of things that are related to medicine (would do this all day compared to sitting in lecture or reading a book). Theres no argument that MS4 will be the best year.... you are no longer forced to do any rotations that you don't want to do, and most of the year is spent doing joke electives/international electives/vacation/interviews. Can't wait!

So I guess all things considered, I would rate it MS4>MS3>MS1>MS2.
 
RySerr21 said:
we just have a difference in opinion.....MS1 wasnt too bad just b/c most of the material wasnt that relevant or necessary to know beyond the exam, and with a P/F curriculum it wasn't hard to get by. Even tho the material was way better, the monotony of studying all the time made MS2 my least favorite year by faaaaaar. MS3 has its negatives, many of which youve mentioned, but i think its definitely been the most fun ive had in the 3 years in terms of things that are related to medicine (would do this all day compared to sitting in lecture or reading a book). Theres no argument that MS4 will be the best year.... you are no longer forced to do any rotations that you don't want to do, and most of the year is spent doing joke electives/international electives/vacation/interviews. Can't wait!

So I guess all things considered, I would rate it MS4>MS3>MS1>MS2.
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I didn't go to much class during M2 and I enjoyed the material I had to learn more than any of my 3rd year rotations except Surg and IM. I much rather sleep in and study on my pwn schedule rather than be forced to get up early, do something I'm not interested in, and then have to study that same material. Rotations like OB sucked the life out of me. At least 2nd year when I was burned out I could give myself a day off whenever. Being on L&D nights during the NBA finals sucked hard (contrast that to the year before where I watched all 7 of the finals games including Game 7 the night before I took Step 1). Stuff like that just made me hate 3rd year at times. Bigger peaks and valleys in 3rd year as compared to 2nd year IMO.


I much rather read a book then do a pap smear or counsel somebody on exercise for diabetes control. 2nd year was tough but by and large more intellectually stimulating than 3rd year (it didn't hurt that I had few mandatory classes and was fortunate enough to do well). I also really value my free time and my ability to set my own schedule.

Different strokes for different folks though. The sentiments in the above paragraph are part of the reason I ended up applying to rads. The ratio of academics to social issues was right for me.
 
2012mdc said:
I didn't go to much class during M2 and I enjoyed the material I had to learn more than any of my 3rd year rotations except Surg and IM. I much rather sleep in and study on my pwn schedule rather than be forced to get up early, do something I'm not interested in, and then have to study that same material. Rotations like OB sucked the life out of me. At least 2nd year when I was burned out I could give myself a day off whenever. Being on L&D nights during the NBA finals sucked hard (contrast that to the year before where I watched all 7 of the finals games including Game 7 the night before I took Step 1). Stuff like that just made me hate 3rd year at times. Bigger peaks and valleys in 3rd year as compared to 2nd year IMO.


I much rather read a book then do a pap smear or counsel somebody on exercise for diabetes control. 2nd year was tough but by and large more intellectually stimulating than 3rd year (it didn't hurt that I had few mandatory classes and was fortunate enough to do well). I also really value my free time and my ability to set my own schedule.

Different strokes for different folks though. The sentiments in the above paragraph are part of the reason I ended up applying to rads. The ratio of academics to social issues was right for me.
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At least the series you missed really wasn't that great. Woulda sucked to miss Lakers-Celtics. Especially when the Lakers won
 
turkeyjerky said:
At least the series you missed really wasn't that great. Woulda sucked to miss Lakers-Celtics. Especially when the Lakers won
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If the Lakers lost I might have delayed my Step 1 and just taken the L on whatever the price would have been. I don't think I would have been in any type of condition to take Step 1 lol
 
2012mdc said:
I didn't go to much class during M2 and I enjoyed the material I had to learn more than any of my 3rd year rotations except Surg and IM. I much rather sleep in and study on my pwn schedule rather than be forced to get up early, do something I'm not interested in, and then have to study that same material. Rotations like OB sucked the life out of me. At least 2nd year when I was burned out I could give myself a day off whenever. Being on L&D nights during the NBA finals sucked hard (contrast that to the year before where I watched all 7 of the finals games including Game 7 the night before I took Step 1). Stuff like that just made me hate 3rd year at times. Bigger peaks and valleys in 3rd year as compared to 2nd year IMO.


I much rather read a book then do a pap smear or counsel somebody on exercise for diabetes control. 2nd year was tough but by and large more intellectually stimulating than 3rd year (it didn't hurt that I had few mandatory classes and was fortunate enough to do well). I also really value my free time and my ability to set my own schedule.

Different strokes for different folks though. The sentiments in the above paragraph are part of the reason I ended up applying to rads. The ratio of academics to social issues was right for me.
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haha, like i said, difference in opinion. not surprising at all that you went in to rads, and on the flip side it makes sense that rads would be the last thing I would ever do. in the end, we'll both be happy, youll just make a lot more money than me :laugh:
 
I would say for me m4 > m2 > m1 > m3

4th year is a bit better bc you have more free time and nothing hanging over your head except the match. 3rd year blew. You were useless and made your team less efficient; the best med students at least didn't slow their team that much. I hated anatomy with a passion so that made m1 year suck.

I liked OR > wards > clinic in terms of clinical experience so IR will be a perfect fit coupled with research and some teaching.
 
drizzt3117 said:
I would say for me m4 > m2 > m1 > m3

4th year is a bit better bc you have more free time and nothing hanging over your head except the match. 3rd year blew. You were useless and made your team less efficient; the best med students at least didn't slow their team that much. I hated anatomy with a passion so that made m1 year suck.

I liked OR > wards > clinic in terms of clinical experience so IR will be a perfect fit coupled with research and some teaching.
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Was it a surprise to you that you enjoy rads so much if you hate anatomy? I know you want to do IR, but even that is really mostly anatomy oriented.
 
surftheiop said:
Was it a surprise to you that you enjoy rads so much if you hate anatomy? I know you want to do IR, but even that is really mostly anatomy oriented.
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Nah, I just hate gross anatomy; specifically the cadaver lab. I'm fine with surgical or radiologic anatomy.
 
No. most of my patients are entitled, hepC+, antisocial freeloaders. I can't believe I get up at 5 in the morning to deal with this s**t!!! I pretty much hate everything about med school. To those of you who have physician parents, take their advice especially when they tell you to avoid med school like the plague, 'cause they're really just looking out for you.
 
Oh and for the patients I do like and I feel are worthy of my time, well, they're dying. And those are big time downers.
 
myhandsarecold said:
No. most of my patients are entitled, hepC+, antisocial freeloaders. I can't believe I get up at 5 in the morning to deal with this s**t!!! I pretty much hate everything about med school. To those of you who have physician parents, take their advice especially when they tell you to avoid med school like the plague, 'cause they're really just looking out for you.
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what about peds? you dont really deal with any of that stuff, it was one of the major pluses for me. most of their conditions and problems are for no reason/choices of their own.
 
myhandsarecold said:
No. most of my patients are entitled, hepC+, antisocial freeloaders. I can't believe I get up at 5 in the morning to deal with this s**t!!! I pretty much hate everything about med school. To those of you who have physician parents, take their advice especially when they tell you to avoid med school like the plague, 'cause they're really just looking out for you.
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Depending on your specialty intern year will be the last time you deal with such patients on a regular basis.

RySerr21 said:
what about peds? you dont really deal with any of that stuff, it was one of the major pluses for me. most of their conditions and problems are for no reason/choices of their own.
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In peds the patients aren't the problem. Their parents can be difficult. Just a different type of frustration.

Medicine isn't perfect (just like every other career out there) so it's important to get the balance of a specialty that interests you a lot while minimizing the frustrations
 
RySerr21 said:
what about peds? you dont really deal with any of that stuff, it was one of the major pluses for me. most of their conditions and problems are for no reason/choices of their own.
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Soon general peds will be management of childhood obesity, with a little sueveilliance of non accidental trauma and of course diaabetus.
 
drizzt3117 said:
Soon general peds will be management of childhood obesity, with a little sueveilliance of non accidental trauma and of course diaabetus.
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Well given the rest of medicine is already almost entirely devoted to managing stuff related to obesity this seems to hardly be a unique downside.
 
surftheiop said:
Well given the rest of medicine is already almost entirely devoted to managing stuff related to obesity this seems to hardly be a unique downside.
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Procedural specialties generally aren't managing chronic disease.
 
PSurg530 said:
I agree that it's hard to plan when you don't know your schedule, but this is how residency will be too.
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Mine isn't. I plan my vacations a year in advance, and I've got my schedule out through April.

turkeyjerky said:
Do your attendings find out their schedule the morning of?
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No, their call schedule is made out 6 months in advance, and I think they're free to switch with other staff whenever they want.

Rollo said:
Welcome to real life, son. You aren't entitled to sleeping in or calling off at your convenience or working with nice people who are sensitive to your needs.

This is why in order to matriculate at medical schools, people should be required to have worked in a, preferably, non-medical setting for at least a year before starting med school.
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I know of no other profession where you would have no idea if you were working nights/weekends/holidays until the first day of that month, other than the military.

turkeyjerky said:
The gripe he has about never knowing your schedule beforehand is legit. It shouldn't be that difficult to give people their schedule for rotations several weeks in advance, yet I was never able to obtain it. Every time I tried to get my call schedule, because I wanted to go to a concert or plan a weekend away, I was told by the coordinator that "oh, we won't have the schedule until the first day."
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Yep.
 
officedepot said:
When you're an intern/resident that'll be the 3rd year of doing rotations so you're much more comfortable. Also at that point it's a job and you actually have some responsibility so you'll look at work differently and the studying you do will be more focused. The most you have to worry about beyond patient care is not being an idiot in front of the attending and probably getting some research for a fellowship from what I have seen. Beyond that there's no dumb shelf exams, subjective evals for a grade that determines your future, etc.

so things will get better. I hope.
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I do like residency more than M3, but I have subjective evaluations from every attending on every rotation, and I have an annual exam that matters quite a bit (the ABSITE). Plus, you blow off the research, but I've already spent ~30 hours this month on chart reviews. I've had to come up with the topic, do the literature reviews, meet with people (research coordinators, biostats people, surgeons), write research proposals, IRB forms, data abstraction forms, attend meetings with other people helping me, and now I have a massive amount of data to comb over. And that's just for this year. I also have to present all this at in-house conferences, and hopefully at regional conferences and publish it too.

And I'm not even planning on a career in academics.
 
2012mdc said:
In peds the patients aren't the problem. Their parents can be difficult. Just a different type of frustration.

Medicine isn't perfect (just like every other career out there) so it's important to get the balance of a specialty that interests you a lot while minimizing the frustrations
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i used to believe the 'parents suck' idea too. but its a mistake to think that peds is the only specialty that deals with difficult people. as a physician, you are going to be dealing with crazy family members...no way around it.
 
ugh, tell me about it. we can't discharge 2 hospice cases 'cause of the dumba** daughters (it's always the bipolar daughters who have the power of attorney!!!). anyway, im really just waiting for the pneumonia to set in to get rid of these people.

on a brighter note, we're capped, i should be able to sleep this upcoming call.
 
RySerr21 said:
i used to believe the 'parents suck' idea too. but its a mistake to think that peds is the only specialty that deals with difficult people. as a physician, you are going to be dealing with crazy family members...no way around it.
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I wasn't trying to make that assertion about peds. That's why I said it's just a different type of frustration. No specialty is perfect.

The non-compliant adult patient I can deal with, the negligent or know-it all parent I can't.
 
2012mdc said:
I wasn't trying to make that assertion about peds. That's why I said it's just a different type of frustration. No specialty is perfect.

The non-compliant adult patient I can deal with, the negligent or know-it all parent I can't.
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It might have just been because of the service that I was on (heme/onc) that I saw so much of it, but for me dealing with adult children/siblings suddenly thrust into making decisions for their parents was a lot more frustrating. You get negligence and know-it-all and non-compliance on the part of the patient and all 5 or 6 children.
 
mdpdgirl said:
It might have just been because of the service that I was on (heme/onc) that I saw so much of it, but for me dealing with adult children/siblings suddenly thrust into making decisions for their parents was a lot more frustrating. You get negligence and know-it-all and non-compliance on the part of the patient and all 5 or 6 children.
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Yeah heme onc is a whole different beast. Much respect for those docs, I couldn't do it.

I was mainly referring to gen IM vs gen peds. I also admit my experience is biased as my 3rd year IM rotation was at a county facility and there often wasn't any family involved in the adult patients.
 
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