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1. Forget about student loans.
2. Forget about my social situation (friends/family).
3. I am extremely hard working.
4. I dont get sad when others degrade/insult me since i am always confident of my skills.

I know there will still be some stress but the 4 points above must be eliminating the hard part right ?
 

bashwell

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1. Forget about student loans.
2. Forget about my social situation (friends/family).
3. I am extremely hard working.
4. I dont get sad when others degrade/insult me since i am always confident of my skills.

I know there will still be some stress but the 4 points above must be eliminating the hard part right ?
I doubt your confidence if you have to ask such a question on an anonymous online forum! ;)
 
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OP
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I doubt your confidence if you have to ask such a question on an anonymous online forum! ;)
The thing is , i am trying to find out where is all that stress that doctors keep talking about , coming from. You understood it the wrong way. I am not here to ask anybody about my skills . I am here to see if there are some other reasons why most of the doctors are stressed. I am expecting replies like "Maybe if you (something that i dont know)...." . Dont act like a smart ass.
 

thoffen

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It's sort of like you are asking if the way to not be stressed is to not be stressed.

Wish it worked that way. We don't get too pick what worries us. We can find all kind of ways to pretend it doesn't exist, but they're always unhealthy.

Would like to know a little more context for what you are asking.
 

RangerBob

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It's a rare person that doesn't stress about anything in life. Some things may seem much more stressful in an absolute manner (ie., young father newly diagnosed with a GBM vs teenage boy who got rejected by the pretty girl next to him in class). But stress is always relative, and some people handle seemingly very stressful things quite well and others can't handle things that shouldn't be all that stressful.

If nothing stresses you out, then you've either attained enlightenment, or you're not really living.

The key is learning to minimize the stress in your life. For me, my debt is quite stressful. So I came up with a plan to manage it and now that it's in motion I just stay within the plan/budget and I try not to think my debt it until the next phase starts. What good does worrying about something do? It's helpful initially to help motivate you to develop a plan (ie, come up with a budget, figure out how to win that girl back, or figure out how to run away from that Saber-Tooth Tiger), but once you've got the plan (run from the tiger!), then what good does worrying really do?
 

Crayola227

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1. Forget about student loans.
2. Forget about my social situation (friends/family).
3. I am extremely hard working.
4. I dont get sad when others degrade/insult me since i am always confident of my skills.

I know there will still be some stress but the 4 points above must be eliminating the hard part right ?
Ah jeez, go read some of my posts on being an intern.

Your hard work can't undo the crunch of having way more demands on you than you can ever hope to fulfill.

That confidence? Will be mostly gone within a few days of being an intern. If it isn't, you're one of those that's too arrogant and dangerous.

You will get sad because you will feel you deserve the degradations and insults, because most of the time, you earned them because the learning curve is steep as an intern.

One of the hardest things for me was having to cut corners and shortchange patients. It doesn't feel good, to me at least, to be told I should be able to pre-round in the chart on 10 patients within 3 minutes and have all my notes started too. (I got starting and printing notes, then chart staking/writing in what the EHR didn't pull in down to about 20 min, so ~2 min per patient to get the note started/printed, info for them ready for presenting jotted down, and read nursing notes. Not too bad but a lot more than 3 min total for 10 pts). Then to be told to time things so for 10 patients I'm only in the room with them for 5 minutes max. When you need to do an exam ask how they're doing, and oh yeah, the family's there and has legit questions. But no, no one's going to take the time to explain it to them. You don't do it, and it ends up being no one else does either.

Also doesn't feel good when you watch GOMERs who want to live, whose families want them to live, have one foot in the grave and watch your uppers push them the rest of the way in on purpose. Because despite what the patient wants, to live and have a few more days with family, your uppers are using what is their own standard for what QOL deserves more or less effort.

Also doesn't feel good when you have GOMERs that *wanted* to be let go, receive all kinds of torturous care they didn't want, and be left as vegetables against their previously expressed wishes.

There are all kinds of stresses that an empathetic person would have that can't be "salved" by the fact that you're hardworking and confident and don't care if your uppers **** on you.
 

pulmoblast

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Sometimes gomers need to die...even if they don't want to


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile app
 

irJanus

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1. Forget about student loans.
2. Forget about my social situation (friends/family).
3. I am extremely hard working.
4. I dont get sad when others degrade/insult me since i am always confident of my skills.

I know there will still be some stress but the 4 points above must be eliminating the hard part right ?
1. You will forget about them. The interest will accrue. You will see the total at the end. Then you will cry. But you're right, not to stress about it up front.

2. Unless you're a sociopath, this WILL affect you. Different levels for different people. My daughter was born 1 month into my intern year... Missed out on a lot, but sacrificed a lot to make every second count. You can't just pretend friends and family don't exist for half a decade or longer. It can be hard, and it will affect you.

3. Good. Keep that up

4. This .... Can be a bad thing. Confidence in skills is good. Feedback is vital. Your ability to take feedback in, process it, and adapt and improve will make you a true physician. Senseless berating is one thing... But do yourself a favor and don't dismiss criticism all the time. Sometimes it's for a reason.

GL w residency. Its intense but an awesome experience
 

Crayola227

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Sometimes gomers need to die...even if they don't want to


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile app
This is ridiculous. Yes, if a treatment is futile they are not entitled to it. Yes, costs matter. I'm talking about gomers that can *personally* express a wish to live. It's not our jobs to see them to the grave in these instances.
 

bashwell

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The thing is , i am trying to find out where is all that stress that doctors keep talking about , coming from. You understood it the wrong way. I am not here to ask anybody about my skills . I am here to see if there are some other reasons why most of the doctors are stressed. I am expecting replies like "Maybe if you (something that i dont know)...." . Dont act like a smart ass.
Sounds like you're too tightly wound dude, which doesn't exactly bode too well when it comes to "stress"! Relax, friend. :)
 
OP
K
Aug 1, 2016
30
1
It's sort of like you are asking if the way to not be stressed is to not be stressed.

Wish it worked that way. We don't get too pick what worries us. We can find all kind of ways to pretend it doesn't exist, but they're always unhealthy.

Would like to know a little more context for what you are asking.
No i really am not pretending like i dont have a debt or away from problems related to my social relationships. They literally dont exist. I dont have a debt and i am planning to do my residency in a country where i have no relatives or friends . In that way i will be completely focused on my residency only . Now what i am asking is , is there anything (that i dont know) that can make me stressed ? Yes i know there are lots of possibilities but i am talking about the general reasons that hit most of the residents.
 

Crayola227

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No i really am not pretending like i dont have a debt or away from problems related to my social relationships. They literally dont exist. I dont have a debt and i am planning to do my residency in a country where i have no relatives or friends . In that way i will be completely focused on my residency only . Now what i am asking is , is there anything (that i dont know) that can make me stressed ? Yes i know there are lots of possibilities but i am talking about the general reasons that hit most of the residents.
I just told you most of them

Overwhelmed both in terms of the workload and intellectually.
You're surrounded by miserable humans constantly, and many of them have power over you. If you think this won't get to you, well....
Feeling like a failure on the regular, because you ARE actually failing on the regular.

I think that covers a lot of it
 
OP
K
Aug 1, 2016
30
1
1. You will forget about them. The interest will accrue. You will see the total at the end. Then you will cry. But you're right, not to stress about it up front.

2. Unless you're a sociopath, this WILL affect you. Different levels for different people. My daughter was born 1 month into my intern year... Missed out on a lot, but sacrificed a lot to make every second count. You can't just pretend friends and family don't exist for half a decade or longer. It can be hard, and it will affect you.

3. Good. Keep that up

4. This .... Can be a bad thing. Confidence in skills is good. Feedback is vital. Your ability to take feedback in, process it, and adapt and improve will make you a true physician. Senseless berating is one thing... But do yourself a favor and don't dismiss criticism all the time. Sometimes it's for a reason.

GL w residency. Its intense but an awesome experience
No man i really dont have a debt. I am not pretending that it doesnt exist. I DONT HAVE A DEBT.
As for point 2, i am planning to do my residency in a country where i have no relatives or friends. And i wont start dating until i finish my residency. So no social relationships for me ...
3- Yes, thank you.
4- Exactly . I dont just do something and leave it there . I have to get some feedback and work on maximizing my efficiency.
 
OP
K
Aug 1, 2016
30
1
I just told you most of them

Overwhelmed both in terms of the workload and intellectually.
You're surrounded by miserable humans constantly, and many of them have power over you. If you think this won't get to you, well....
Feeling like a failure on the regular, because you ARE actually failing on the regular.

I think that covers a lot of it
Yes the workload is something that i dont know about yet.... But i am planning to specialize in something that wont require me to work more than 12 hours a day. there are some fields that dont need you to work a lot.
 

Crayola227

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Yes the workload is something that i dont know about yet.... But i am planning to specialize in something that wont require me to work more than 12 hours a day. there are some fields that dont need you to work a lot.
it's not just the number of hours... this is what people forget.
it's the pace.
 

Crayola227

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The thing is, it's not really a dollar for hour question

take the sausage example

say they were gonna pay you a million dollars to take people's grandmothers and like we did in cadaver lab, pull them apart into limbs and start shoving them through the sausage grinder. you're like, OK, I know this is dirty hard work, but I'm making sausage for hungry people. Now, I want you to start putting them through the grinder soooooooooooooo ****ing fast that now you don't even bother to kill the grannies before you start parting them out and shoving them in the grinder still screaming. And by the way, now your pay is tied to that, and it will now be half a million dollars.

Insult to injury. You can't raise the pace to inhuman levels and then *also* drop salary and expect happiness. On the other hand, like I described, is this really about dollar per hour or what the hour is being made into? What is the source of the gloom?

Unlike some other jobs, like bartending or cooking where you could half ass things, just pick up the dropped steak off the floor and put it on the grill, in medicine the stress is enormous with cutting corners. The same thing that made the job seem so meaningful - its impact - then those stakes can become a curse.

Basically doctors are reaching the point where they feel like doing their job well is not only impossible, but now the pay doesn't seem worth it. That's an issue I'm not sure dollar signs can fix, which is why we tell people don't do it for money.

Not feeling like you are doing your extremely important and potentially life saving job well can be enormously demoralizing. A paycut on top? **** this I was gonna quit over time not money.

It's gloomy to try to squeeze good outcomes out of docs with visits of 8 min average facetime while they work 60 hours a week for declining pay and increasing debt.

Better do it for the love of grannies and sausage. That was a ****ed analogy.
 

RangerBob

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No man i really dont have a debt. I am not pretending that it doesnt exist. I DONT HAVE A DEBT.
As for point 2, i am planning to do my residency in a country where i have no relatives or friends. And i wont start dating until i finish my residency. So no social relationships for me ...
3- Yes, thank you.
4- Exactly . I dont just do something and leave it there . I have to get some feedback and work on maximizing my efficiency.
If you're in a foreign country and have no social support, that's likely to wear down on your quite a bit. Not dating may as well, though I think it's easier to go without dating than without friends. Human beings just aren't meant to live alone in a bubble. Hopefully you can make some friends at work. It's a rare person that doesn't need the support of others; it's even rarer for a person to not need the support of others and not have anti-social tendencies that wouldn't interfere with their work. I just don't see 3-5 years of residency going well without at least some casual acquaintances with whom you can laugh with, blow of steam with. And I say this as an introvert. Give me one good friend and I'm thrilled--but I need that one friend.

As Crayola mentioned, it really is the pace, not the total hours, that wears you down. That's what killed me in the ER--10hr shifts with no break whatsoever. On rehab I occasionally have days where it's non-stop work, but there's almost always flexibility in the day to take 30 min for lunch here and take a 15 min break there and chat with some of my co-residents, nurses, social workers, or whoever feels like chatting. Her meat-grinder analysis, while a little quirky/inventive, is a fairly good analysis. If you just work that much on efficiency, at a certain point you just can't get more efficient without sacrificing patient care. But it's also hard to keep your sanity and love for your job operating at that kind of efficiency. The happiest physicians I've met are the ones who have the time to talk with their patients, and joke around with co-workers a bit because their schedules aren't jam-packed.
 
OP
K
Aug 1, 2016
30
1
If you're in a foreign country and have no social support, that's likely to wear down on your quite a bit. Not dating may as well, though I think it's easier to go without dating than without friends. Human beings just aren't meant to live alone in a bubble. Hopefully you can make some friends at work. It's a rare person that doesn't need the support of others; it's even rarer for a person to not need the support of others and not have anti-social tendencies that wouldn't interfere with their work. I just don't see 3-5 years of residency going well without at least some casual acquaintances with whom you can laugh with, blow of steam with. And I say this as an introvert. Give me one good friend and I'm thrilled--but I need that one friend.

As Crayola mentioned, it really is the pace, not the total hours, that wears you down. That's what killed me in the ER--10hr shifts with no break whatsoever. On rehab I occasionally have days where it's non-stop work, but there's almost always flexibility in the day to take 30 min for lunch here and take a 15 min break there and chat with some of my co-residents, nurses, social workers, or whoever feels like chatting. Her meat-grinder analysis, while a little quirky/inventive, is a fairly good analysis. If you just work that much on efficiency, at a certain point you just can't get more efficient without sacrificing patient care. But it's also hard to keep your sanity and love for your job operating at that kind of efficiency. The happiest physicians I've met are the ones who have the time to talk with their patients, and joke around with co-workers a bit because their schedules aren't jam-packed.
You only need logic to reason that you dont need other's support. If you can see that you are doing something correctly , you dont need others to help you through it (at least that is how it works for me). Now coming to the part where being an introvert wont do me good since i have to work in a field that requires good communication skills ,, i actually am not an introvert. I am an ambivert (that means i am halfway between being an introvert and being an extrovert) but i am also leaning more towards extroversion. I have been without any close friends for a few years and i am doing very well even though i do realize that i would be happier if i had close friends. The type of friends that i have been having for the last few years are just class mates. We dont even talk outside the class or anything because we are not even that close but i really dont feel bad because of that . I do realize that i am happier without people who barely have anything in common with me. But like i said, i would be happier if i had a best friend.
 
OP
K
Aug 1, 2016
30
1
If you're in a foreign country and have no social support, that's likely to wear down on your quite a bit. Not dating may as well, though I think it's easier to go without dating than without friends. Human beings just aren't meant to live alone in a bubble. Hopefully you can make some friends at work. It's a rare person that doesn't need the support of others; it's even rarer for a person to not need the support of others and not have anti-social tendencies that wouldn't interfere with their work. I just don't see 3-5 years of residency going well without at least some casual acquaintances with whom you can laugh with, blow of steam with. And I say this as an introvert. Give me one good friend and I'm thrilled--but I need that one friend.

As Crayola mentioned, it really is the pace, not the total hours, that wears you down. That's what killed me in the ER--10hr shifts with no break whatsoever. On rehab I occasionally have days where it's non-stop work, but there's almost always flexibility in the day to take 30 min for lunch here and take a 15 min break there and chat with some of my co-residents, nurses, social workers, or whoever feels like chatting. Her meat-grinder analysis, while a little quirky/inventive, is a fairly good analysis. If you just work that much on efficiency, at a certain point you just can't get more efficient without sacrificing patient care. But it's also hard to keep your sanity and love for your job operating at that kind of efficiency. The happiest physicians I've met are the ones who have the time to talk with their patients, and joke around with co-workers a bit because their schedules aren't jam-packed.
As for the part regarding the doctor-patient time , is there any field that doesnt control the amount of time you spend talking to your patients ? Btw thanks for your answers.
 
OP
K
Aug 1, 2016
30
1
If you're in a foreign country and have no social support, that's likely to wear down on your quite a bit. Not dating may as well, though I think it's easier to go without dating than without friends. Human beings just aren't meant to live alone in a bubble. Hopefully you can make some friends at work. It's a rare person that doesn't need the support of others; it's even rarer for a person to not need the support of others and not have anti-social tendencies that wouldn't interfere with their work. I just don't see 3-5 years of residency going well without at least some casual acquaintances with whom you can laugh with, blow of steam with. And I say this as an introvert. Give me one good friend and I'm thrilled--but I need that one friend.

As Crayola mentioned, it really is the pace, not the total hours, that wears you down. That's what killed me in the ER--10hr shifts with no break whatsoever. On rehab I occasionally have days where it's non-stop work, but there's almost always flexibility in the day to take 30 min for lunch here and take a 15 min break there and chat with some of my co-residents, nurses, social workers, or whoever feels like chatting. Her meat-grinder analysis, while a little quirky/inventive, is a fairly good analysis. If you just work that much on efficiency, at a certain point you just can't get more efficient without sacrificing patient care. But it's also hard to keep your sanity and love for your job operating at that kind of efficiency. The happiest physicians I've met are the ones who have the time to talk with their patients, and joke around with co-workers a bit because their schedules aren't jam-packed.
I have told you guys to forget about the part regarding my social relationships from the beginning because its entirely based on my point of view. Its just the way i see it.
 

Crayola227

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As for the part regarding the doctor-patient time , is there any field that doesnt control the amount of time you spend talking to your patients ? Btw thanks for your answers.
HAHAHAHAHHAHAH

Really? Now i know you're trolling
 
OP
K
Aug 1, 2016
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Okay thanks for your answer. Is there any specialty that doesnt limit the time you spend with your patients ?
 

RangerBob

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As for the part regarding the doctor-patient time , is there any field that doesnt control the amount of time you spend talking to your patients ? Btw thanks for your answers.
There are plenty of fields that give you more control over how much time you have with your patients. Psych is probably the best, since it's really the only specialty where it's more feasible to open your own practice--you could literally just rent a room and do all the scheduling/billing yourself, and have control over every aspect of your practice. I've known a few people who did that.

Otherwise, you just need to find the right job--most fields offer some jobs with better control, though it's much harder in surgical fields. Most VA job tend to involve having more time in clinic with patients. But as a general rule, having fewer patients/lighter workload is going to result in a lower salary unless it's a job in a hard-to-fill rural area where they may sweeten the pot (but rural jobs can tend to have heavy work-loads)

Regarding your social situation, if you're happy now without friends in medical school you might be fine in residency. But just keep in mind residency is very different and you may find yourself feeling more isolated.
 

thoffen

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I'm going to take leave of this thread.

Essentially you have made a post to talk about your own anxiety in starting residency. You withhold details about your life and interests, you talk about anxieties that other doctors must feel, and you get feisty that we cannot exactly read your mind about what you write which does or does not apply to you (especially since you choose to talk about anxieties that don't apply to you).

So you are setting it up where your anxiety about this transition belongs to us, and you induce us to feel anxious by being obstructive in trying to help you. That's called projective identification.

I have some serious concerns about your maturity if you can't handle things without taking ownership of your conflicts. You are about to embark on a career where other people's lives are in your hands, and you will end up harming them.
 
OP
K
Aug 1, 2016
30
1
There are plenty of fields that give you more control over how much time you have with your patients. Psych is probably the best, since it's really the only specialty where it's more feasible to open your own practice--you could literally just rent a room and do all the scheduling/billing yourself, and have control over every aspect of your practice. I've known a few people who did that.

Otherwise, you just need to find the right job--most fields offer some jobs with better control, though it's much harder in surgical fields. Most VA job tend to involve having more time in clinic with patients. But as a general rule, having fewer patients/lighter workload is going to result in a lower salary unless it's a job in a hard-to-fill rural area where they may sweeten the pot (but rural jobs can tend to have heavy work-loads)

Regarding your social situation, if you're happy now without friends in medical school you might be fine in residency. But just keep in mind residency is very different and you may find yourself feeling more isolated.
Okay so the two things that can make me stressed (based on other's responses in this thread) are :
1- Working for more than 13 hours a day and being on call during the night.
2- Not having enough time with my patients.
I think that can be solved by choosing the right medical specialty , right ? Is there any specialties that will eliminate the two points i mentioned above ?
 

irJanus

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No man i really dont have a debt. I am not pretending that it doesnt exist. I DONT HAVE A DEBT.
As for point 2, i am planning to do my residency in a country where i have no relatives or friends. And i wont start dating until i finish my residency. So no social relationships for me ...
3- Yes, thank you.
4- Exactly . I dont just do something and leave it there . I have to get some feedback and work on maximizing my efficiency.
That no debt part sounds amazing lol. Jealous.
 

drk

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I've found a lot of stress in residency is related to the attitude the person came in with. Most normal and sane people go into residency expecting to work hard and get their asses handed to them on a daily basis in the hopes of learning. We also know that it does get better in the sense you become more confident And competent. These people cope well with the stress and rigors of residency.

Then there are those who walk in too arrogant...those who think that they should not have to be put through any rigors or stress. Constantly complaining about workload despite ACMGE caps, no food at some random lecture, complaining about a late admission. It makes no sense to me why these people chose medicine. You have three years to learn as much as you can before you are released on to the world.

All that said, residency is incredibly easier now than it has been in the past and the bitching and complaining by residents appears to be at its peak. Makes no sense to me.
 

bashwell

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Okay so the two things that can make me stressed (based on other's responses in this thread) are :
1- Working for more than 13 hours a day and being on call during the night.
2- Not having enough time with my patients.
I think that can be solved by choosing the right medical specialty , right ? Is there any specialties that will eliminate the two points i mentioned above ?
 

gutonc

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If you're not sure, you're not paying attention.

I can't believe this troll thread got to post 29 before being called out.
 
OP
K
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If you're not sure, you're not paying attention.

I can't believe this troll thread got to post 29 before being called out.
HAHAHAHAHHAHAH

Really? Now i know you're trolling
Lol guys chill . I havent even started med school yet. I only lied bcz this is a "Physician / resident forum" , sorry. I knew i was gonna get caught sooner or later bcz i am asking questions that a med student probably knows. But i really havent lied about anything else (my education will be funded and everything else i said about my social status is true) Anyway , seriously , plz answer my questions :
1- When we say 80+ hours per week , we mean 7 days right ? Or do we count a day off or something?
2- Again , which medical specialties do not require you to work more than 12 hours a day ?
3- While specializing , do all the residents spend 80+ hours a week working or does that also depend on your residency ?
 

gutonc

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And...we're done.

Closing troll thread.

Go to Pre-Allo (or International since you're going to school overseas) to ask the relevant questions. And try not to troll there too.
 
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