Do you think we need more pharmacy schools? ( Market saturation , pharmacist unemployment)

[PharmDKat]

I graduated in 2012 with my PharmD, which I enrolled into out of high school. I am not a second career person or duel degree-er. I am also an immigrant and have had a life that typically comes with that status. I've been working since I was 15 and have had full time employment since I was 17 years old; I just turned 26. I am hard at work building a career within pharmacy as well other avenues and it has been difficult. It has always been difficult for me and I expect it to continue this way.

I do not, by any means intend to say that by limiting the opening of new schools of pharmacy is going to save us all or overnight from unemployment, underemployment or lead to conditions of better job satisfaction. The "job situation" is a personal and individual thing. But I think most people can agree that by saturating the market that cannot accommodate the increasing volume of PharmDs is hurting or is going to hurt us all; whether we choose retail, hospital, clinical practice, independent business ventures, industry, clinical research, etc.

I firmly believe that unemployment is already a problem for pharmacists and it can stem from many reasons. Personally, I am fortunate to have been able to stay employed, which recently required pay cuts, moving and unusual choices.

My concern with too many schools and us not speaking out about it - is that we will have no career mobility and worse, absolutely no bargaining power with employers. I know many of my friends are treated poorly by employers - treated as though they are disposable because unfortunately this is what we have become.

My, admittedly idealistic, philosophy is that we are competitive by nature but also not wild animals; therefore we must behave and encourage rational behavior and choices. We are, at core, a community. We share a profession and many interested within it - we are colleagues and oftentimes friends. So my thoughts are firm here:

1- It is not rational to open up more schools of pharmacy at this time; people are having a hard time finding work and I have read estimated projections of unemployment for new graduates at 20% looming
2- It is not rational to estimate future job projections on positions that do not yet exist (or at least not in the demand that can absorb candidates)

I am not complaining...I am honestly asking for help. I want ACPE to see the consequence of their decisions with this petition:
https://www.change.org/p/accreditat...on-to-the-supply-and-demand-of-the-pharmacist

If enough of you can share your experiences, I can keep this request for helping our profession going.

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Members don't see this ad.

 

[trailerpark]

Good luck

 

[gwarm01]

You're really all about that petition, huh?

 

[rederza]

You're really all about that petition, huh?

At least she's trying...

 

[shutterfly]

yeah, least she isn't just complaining and doing nothing. imma sign it. Please keep up the fight. If not for every pharmacist who is struggling but for the crappy pharmacists that are produced by these darn diploma mills.

 

[Jloyay]

I support but I live in Ontario and we only have 2 pharmacy schools for a province of 13 million people. I guess this is what happens when you allow capitalism into education.

 

[shutterfly]

I support but I live in Ontario and we only have 2 pharmacy schools for a province of 13 million people. I guess this is what happens when you allow capitalism into education.

damnnn. what is ur salaries like in canada? are they comparable to america? if so, sign me up.....im moving up!!!!!!

 

[BMBiology]

The problem with this profession is that people don't speak up!

When your professor tells you about his wonderful clinical job, ask him how is he getting paid? Is it from the clinical services he is providing or is it from your tuition?

When the APhA talked about provider status, ask them how come they don't talk about the horrible working conditions?

When your dean talked about the saturation, ask him why is the school still increasing its class size?

Ask the hard questions. Let everybody know and let the chips fall where they may.

 

[Jloyay]

damnnn. what is ur salaries like in canada? are they comparable to america? if so, sign me up.....im moving up!!!!!!

Average Id say is $90,000 Canadian, which is about $70,000 USD now that the Canadian dollar tanked with the drop in oil prices LOL. It used to be par.

 

[Gombrich12]

At this point the more schools the better, ideally in already saturated areaas. Each additional school puts more stress on neighboring schools and makes them more vulnerable to future legislation. The government is already planning on curtailing the PAYE/IBR programs and next on some people's agenda is a global cap on student loans which would hurt a lot of schools.

I feel like the best thing we can do is advocate for academic standards being upheld or made stricter and inform prospective students that the profession is probably not worth 6+ years of school and hundreds of thousands of dollars of debt. If we can convince the people with options to stay away then something will have to be done about the less qualified students they have been admitting. If you're a preceptor and you get sent one of these students you have a duty to the profession to grade them fairly on their ability and not just pass them through.

 

[suntzu]

Here's a section of the ACPE's 2016 standards [page #9]. I'm looking at 13.4 and 13.6 . . .

As I understand it, the ACPE has to accredit your school if your school meets their standards. They cannot turn a new school down because there are too many pharmacy schools.

So perhaps the ACPE would be able to amend these standards to include, for example, a maximum of 160 hours of the 1440 hours being in community pharmacy. I'd have to believe there would then be more than a couple schools unable to meet the accreditation standards, and a much higher hurdle for newer schools. Note the phrase 'The majority of APPE is focused on direct patient care'. I think its arguable whether much of that occurs in most retail settings. I remember my preceptor mostly happy to just have some free help for a month. I think this profession owes itself more than allowing 50% or more of the 'clinical year' to be done at Wags, CVS, or Walmart. This is not meant as a slight towards retail at all -- most jobs are in retail and that's not going to change anytime soon -- but the more clinical under the belt during school the better IMO. And if it toughens the barrier to entry for new schools, all the better.

 

[297point1]

So perhaps the ACPE would be able to amend these standards to include, for example, a maximum of 160 hours of the 1440 hours being in community pharmacy.

160 wouldn't work.
240 might work (6 weeks x 40 hours/week).

 

[The Cutest Ponytail]

I support but I live in Ontario and we only have 2 pharmacy schools for a province of 13 million people. I guess this is what happens when you allow capitalism into education.

Not so fast Poindexter. You got it backwards. If you had real capitalism then the growth in schools would be self-limiting. But we are under communism evidenced by unfettered credit creation. So take that from a hot chick with an onion butt.

 

[radio frequency]

No, we don't need more schools. Still, if you want to get people on board with this petition, you're going to need to tighten up your message. All the stuff about being a first generation American and not a second degree earner isn't necessary and doesn't help your argument. The pitch is too long and drawn out.

 

[suntzu]

160 wouldn't work.
240 might work (6 weeks x 40 hours/week).

Good point - we were on one month rotations, but many schools are not.

 

[BMBiology]

Here's a section of the ACPE's 2016 standards [page #9].So perhaps the ACPE would be able to amend these standards to include, for example, a maximum of 160 hours of the 1440 hours being in community pharmacy. I'd have to believe there would then be more than a couple schools unable to meet the accreditation standards, and a much higher hurdle for newer schools. Note the phrase 'The majority of APPE is focused on direct patient care'. I think its arguable whether much of that occurs in most retail settings. I remember my preceptor mostly happy to just have some free help for a month. I think this profession owes itself more than allowing 50% or more of the 'clinical year' to be done at Wags, CVS, or Walmart. This is not meant as a slight towards retail at all -- most jobs are in retail and that's not going to change anytime soon -- but the more clinical under the belt during school the better IMO. And if it toughens the barrier to entry for new schools, all the better.

No, it won't work. It probably hurts the established schools more than the new schools. These new schools are hiring PGY-1 and PGY-2 as their professors. They don't cost as much as the dinosaurs at the established schools. I would even argue these "new" grads are even better because they actually have recent experience working in a real pharmacy. In addition, new schools are paying for sites so they will not have a problem. They need these sites or they can't get accreditation. This is why established schools have not been pushing for stricter standards. And why should they care? They will be paid regardless if you find a job or not.

The only way to stop this explosion of new schools and to stop existing schools from expanding is to put a cap on student loans. Some schools, new and established, will close as a result.

 

[oldstock]

No, it won't work. It probably hurts the established schools more than the new schools. These new schools are hiring PGY-1 and PGY-2 as their professors. They don't cost as much as the dinosaurs at the established schools. I would even argue these "new" grads are even better because they actually have recent experience working in a real pharmacy. In addition, new schools are paying for sites so they will not have a problem. They need these sites or they can't get accreditation. This is why established schools have not been pushing for stricter standards. And why should they care? They will be paid regardless if you find a job or not.

The only way to stop this explosion of new schools and to stop existing schools from expanding is to put a cap on student loans. Some schools, new and established, will close as a result.

currently, there are caps on student loans (undergrad/grad/prof). You might want to lower the current caps or abolish student loans ?? that might work...


Anyhoo, regarding pharmacy saturation and nonstop school opening, imho there is not much we can do really. ACPE has actually come out and announced publicly many times that they will not do anything to stop the opening of new schools. I agree w @Gombrich that the only thing we can actually do is to bring awareness of the current situation in pharmacy to the public. People with a brain will stay away from this sinking ship called pharmacy and go somewhere else instead. But unfortunately, that is all we can do.


The truth is, people follow the $$$$$. It is all about $$$$$ whether we like it or not. People will not stop opening schools or going into pharmacy until there is no money or job left.


This kind of situation already happened many times in the past like it happened with dental schools in the '80s-90s and law schools in the '00s. I applaud the OP for the efforts but I do not think anybody will be able to stop this trend as America is claimed as a "free market"...

Like dental and law, history says that only the market will correct this ridiculous bubble. School will not stop opening until people stop applying and people will not stop going into pharmacy until they see new rx grads are unemployed or underemployed with wages like 20-30s buck an hours and struggling to pay back their huge student loans. And only then it will stop.

At this point the more schools the better, ideally in already saturated areaas. Each additional school puts more stress on neighboring schools and makes them more vulnerable to future legislation. The government is already planning on curtailing the PAYE/IBR programs and next on some people's agenda is a global cap on student loans which would hurt a lot of schools.

I feel like the best thing we can do is advocate for academic standards being upheld or made stricter and inform prospective students that the profession is probably not worth 6+ years of school and hundreds of thousands of dollars of debt. If we can convince the people with options to stay away then something will have to be done about the less qualified students they have been admitting. If you're a preceptor and you get sent one of these students you have a duty to the profession to grade them fairly on their ability and not just pass them through.

 

[297point1]

So take that from a hot chick with an onion butt.

Onion butt? I had to look that up.
I am getting old

 

[WhYMee]

Signed your petition and shred it on social media. Good luck

 

[Dred Pirate]

Signed your petition and shred it on social media. Good luck

shred it - lol - basically that is all that will get done with it sadly

 

[WhYMee]

shred it - lol - basically that is all that will get done with it sadly

I am not sure a online petition has ever worked for any issue....ever. But the way I look at it, a few seconds of my time isn't a big deal. It is for cause that I believe in as well.

 

[deleted390966]

.

 

[confettiflyer]

Online petitions NEVER work. End of. If an online petition turns into a mass protest on the street (e.g., Walmart workers protesting against low wages) then it might work.

Because that occupy wall street thing worked so well...i mean, oops.

 

[PharmDKat]

https://www.change.org/p/accreditat...on-to-the-supply-and-demand-of-the-pharmacist

Over 400 signatures in 3 weeks. If it hits 1,000... I will submit editorials to newspapers and contact the press to publicize this issue.

 

[confettiflyer]

people still read newspapers?

 

[BidingMyTime]

I support but I live in Ontario and we only have 2 pharmacy schools for a province of 13 million people. I guess this is what happens when you allow capitalism into education.

Not capitalism at all, the problem (and this is affecting all majors) is the socialistic government support of higher education in the form of loans to any and all (regardless of their merit or their future job potential.) When the US government started financing college loans, schools started increased and tuition prices started rising....because these schools have nothing to lose, they get paid (thanks to the US government) regardless of the quality of their school and regardless of whether any of their graduates ever actually get a job.

In a true capitalistic society, there would be no government financed loans, and banks would only be giving out loans to people who have likely characteristics of graduating and who were getting a major which would offer a likely chance at a salary that would make their bank loan repayable. Schools would not be able to raise tuition sky-high, because no bank would give a loan for it, nor would schools be able to graduate thousands of useless or glutted majors, because no banks would give a loan for that either.

Government backed loans is what is destroying high education in the US. These loans were created with the best of intentions, but they are causing more harm than good, in my opinion.

 

[WhYMee]

Not capitalism at all, the problem (and this is affecting all majors) is the socialistic government support of higher education in the form of loans to any and all (regardless of their merit or their future job potential.) When the US government started financing college loans, schools started increased and tuition prices started rising....because these schools have nothing to lose, they get paid (thanks to the US government) regardless of the quality of their school and regardless of whether any of their graduates ever actually get a job.

In a true capitalistic society, there would be no government financed loans, and banks would only be giving out loans to people who have likely characteristics of graduating and who were getting a major which would offer a likely chance at a salary that would make their bank loan repayable. Schools would not be able to raise tuition sky-high, because no bank would give a loan for it, nor would schools be able to graduate thousands of useless or glutted majors, because no banks would give a loan for that either.

Government backed loans is what is destroying high education in the US. These loans were created with the best of intentions, but they are causing more harm than good, in my opinion.

Amen Brother!!!!! That's exactly how I see it. I have an infant and not worried at all about college tuition. This artificial bubble will burst just like 2008 realestate

 

[Judgment Dragon]

https://www.change.org/p/accreditat...on-to-the-supply-and-demand-of-the-pharmacist

Over 400 signatures in 3 weeks. If it hits 1,000... I will submit editorials to newspapers and contact the press to publicize this issue.

2192 signatures. Have you now contacted the press to publicize this petition?