DO Yr 3 Electives

[sab3156]

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To be clear, are you advocating that one should pursue research with an ACGME residency-affiliated institution in a field that one is interested in during first and second year? Is there a strategic way to do this other than cold call/email or ask your professors if they know anyone at that institution?

It is extremely tough, to be honest. Connections from previous work can help immeasurably. I think that is the most strategic way to do it. My friends have been trying to email academic centers nearby with no luck. It really depends on your location, and most DO schools are in terrible places research-wise.

 

[fldoctorgirl]

Fair point, I've read about the difficulties KCU students had getting research their.

Just throwing this out there in case any future students are lurking this thread: KCU is changing the length of summer between M1 and M2 to ~8 weeks now instead of the 5 currently given to allow students to have a better shot at research. Not saying it's going to fix all of the problems, but definitely a step in the right direction. No one is going to take you for a summer research position for 5 weeks.

 

[IslandStyle808]

It is extremely tough, to be honest. Connections from previous work can help immeasurably. I think that is the most strategic way to do it. My friends have been trying to email academic centers nearby with no luck. It really depends on your location, and most DO schools are in terrible places research-wise.

I tried the email route and failed. And not just in my fields of interest but I emailed people in other ACGME residency programs. Location wasn't the problem in my case. They were most likely favoring their medical students for research, or they didn't want an unknown product. If you have connections, work them to get some research going.

 

[IslandStyle808]

Just throwing this out there in case any future students are lurking this thread: KCU is changing the length of summer between M1 and M2 to ~8 weeks now instead of the 5 currently given to allow students to have a better shot at research. Not saying it's going to fix all of the problems, but definitely a step in the right direction. No one is going to take you for a summer research position for 5 weeks.

This was one of the largest cruxes as to why. However,not sure if how brutal the curriculum was affected this also as well (time wise to do research). Any changes in that front?

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

Those are pretty unrealistic expectations for a DO.

and yet its how DOs have been getting those spots for years.....

I think that is the most strategic way to do it.

Of course you do. You like saying that because it's what you have done and it's a massive humblebrag with you basically saying, "look at me and this cool thing I did and you didn't do it so you are screwed." It is simply not true. No one is screwed because they didn't do research with some PD before medical school. Enough with the drama. Would you like me to share with you which of that last few wow DO matches that I know of, actual DOs in these competitive fields, who got their spot because of an away rotation? Shocker, of of them is an ophtho match.

Can it help? We'll see, but it most definitely is not the only way.

 

[MightBeACylon439]

and yet its how DOs have been getting those spots for years.....



It is simply not true. No one is screwed because they didn't do research with some PD before medical school. Enough with the drama. Would you like me to share with you which of that last few wow DO matches that I know of, actual DOs in these competitive fields, who got their spot because of an away rotation? Shocker, of of them is an ophtho match.

Can it help? We'll see, but it most definitely is not the only way.

BUt...but...but...but...but...I believe you are meddling with either a troll or an immovable object here. It seems no matter what you say he's gonna have some anecdote or reason as to why he's right and why his advice is what should be the gold standard. There's a reason I pretty much just respond to his posts "Lol." Because his irrationality and overzealousness are to the point where the only thing you can do is laugh. Let him give his doomsday advice, probably best to just give the advice you feel is best, and let the posters decide on what they will listen to.

Hint, people are smart enough here to disregard most of his advice, I wouldnt worry about continuing a debate with him.

 

[sab3156]

I tried the email route and failed. And not just in my fields of interest but I emailed people in other ACGME residency programs. Location wasn't the problem in my case. They were most likely favoring their medical students for research, or they didn't want an unknown product. If you have connections, work them to get some research going.

I feel you man, it's tough out there. DO students face a lot of these problems and there is no way to sugar coat it. Even low tier IM programs are giving tons of people in my school the silent treatment. Have you tried reaching out to residents from your school? Maybe going through your school's alumni network would work. Not sure how that works, though.

BUt...but...but...but...but...I believe you are meddling with either a troll or an immovable object here. It seems no matter what you say he's gonna have some anecdote or reason as to why he's right and why his advice is what should be the gold standard. There's a reason I pretty much just respond to his posts "Lol." Because his irrationality and overzealousness are to the point where the only thing you can do is laugh. Let him give his doomsday advice, probably best to just give the advice you feel is best, and let the posters decide on what they will listen to.

Hint, people are smart enough here to disregard most of his advice, I wouldnt worry about continuing a debate with him.

Ah, if you're really that mad that you were called out for advising a first year DO student interested in applying ACGME Ophthalmology to start looking for research opportunities at the end of 3rd year, I apologize. There is good and bad advice, and I think you and some others here fall below the lowest tier of this subject. I also like how some people talk about incomplete SDN stories instead of real life when discussing the match, but information from PDs and residents/fellows is attacked.

And I see notifications for "Show Ignored Content", must mean AnatomyGrey is here throwing out anecdotes or attacking peoples' character over the internet. Really enjoying the ignore feature.

 

[sab3156]

Just throwing this out there in case any future students are lurking this thread: KCU is changing the length of summer between M1 and M2 to ~8 weeks now instead of the 5 currently given to allow students to have a better shot at research. Not saying it's going to fix all of the problems, but definitely a step in the right direction. No one is going to take you for a summer research position for 5 weeks.

Might help a bit, but other DO students at other schools that already have long summer breaks still face these issues.

 

[MightBeACylon439]

I feel you man, it's tough out there. DO students face a lot of these problems and there is no way to sugar coat it. Even low tier IM programs are giving tons of people in my school the silent treatment.


Ah, if you're really that mad that you were called out for advising a first year DO student interested in applying ACGME Ophthalmology to start looking for research opportunities at the end of 3rd year, I apologize. There is good and bad advice, and I think you and some others here fall below the lowest tier of this subject.

Lol

 

[Chibucks15]

I agree that you will have to do away rotations (I mean, we don't even have a home program in most DO schools), but you shouldn't expect to network your way into a program that way. Those are pretty unrealistic expectations for a DO. The best way for a DO to match is to do extensive research with a strong ACGME program. It is simply the fact of the matter. I worked in clinical research at a top program and know this from talking to a lot of people who are/were involved in resident selection at top and mid-tier programs in Ophtho. No one had any different opinion about it. It's really only the DO and pre-DO forums on SDN that we see horrible advice like "start doing research in 3rd year" and "you can match into ENT as long as you have a good application."

But I said neither of those things and you said my advice was garbage...cmon now.

I feel you man, it's tough out there. DO students face a lot of these problems and there is no way to sugar coat it. Even low tier IM programs are giving tons of people in my school the silent treatment.


Ah, if you're really that mad that you were called out for advising a first year DO student interested in applying ACGME Ophthalmology to start looking for research opportunities at the end of 3rd year, I apologize. There is good and bad advice, and I think you and some others here fall below the lowest tier of this subject.

lolz

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

And I see notifications for "Show Ignored Content", must mean AnatomyGrey is here throwing out anecdotes or attacking peoples' character over the internet. Really enjoying the ignore feature.

Yeah since all your info isn’t 100% anecdotal 🙄 but I will admit I am enjoying the ignore feature too as it allows me to offer counter arguments and poke holes in all of your BS without having to deal with your ad hominem attacks after you dislike what I say. 😀

 

[fldoctorgirl]

This was one of the largest cruxes as to why. However,not sure if how brutal the curriculum was affected this also as well (time wise to do research). Any changes in that front?

Not sure to be honest.

 

[sab3156]

This was one of the largest cruxes as to why. However,not sure if how brutal the curriculum was affected this also as well (time wise to do research). Any changes in that front?

Not sure to be honest.

There was some talk floating around about how they were thinking about making major changes to the pathology course (basically, not having to read the entire Robbins textbook front to back for exams). Not sure if this has anything to do with the summer break change, though.

In any case, I don't think the time change will make much of a difference -> DO students still will face considerable hardship trying to land research at ACGME academic centers. There are 4 week programs out there, and our school has had very poor results trying to apply for them.

But I said neither of those things and you said my advice was garbage...cmon now.

Well, you were saying all it takes is to "kill it on aways" (it's fun to imagine the DO student with 3rd year clinical training at a community hospital absolutely dominating his ACGME away rotations with his clinical ophthalmology and otolaryngology skills in 4th year, while all the MD students from top schools are cowering in fear and begging for mercy and praying to get ranked over this DO student sent by God... sounds like the script from a movie) and have the "stats" to back it up. You also admitted you don't know anyone in Ophtho, so this is all a bit too confusing and surreal for me. Just go ask on the Ophtho forums for this information. Not a single person (in real life) from ACGME ophtho or ENT I have ever spoken to has confirmed what you guys keep shouting... if you want to counter this with a half-baked anecdote from SDN, go ahead... But you can also easily ask on the Ophtho or ENT forums for all this information. In fact, there is a thread happening right now on this very topic at the top of the Ophtho page, and you can search for more that have happened in the past. Obviously, I'm not saying that you don't NEED an away rotation (you need several, because DO schools don't have a home program and there is really no way else to get letters for most DO students), but it's ridiculous to think you will magically get ranked at the program you did an away rotation.

The worst part about this discussion (other than the blatant misinformation) is the fact that people need to have the "last word" by attacking people... does nothing for their argument, and just makes them look childish.

 

[Chibucks15]

There was some talk floating around about how they were thinking about making major changes to the pathology course (basically, not having to read the entire Robbins textbook front to back for exams). Not sure if this has anything to do with the summer break change, though.

In any case, I don't think the time change will make much of a difference -> DO students still will face considerable hardship trying to land research at ACGME academic centers. There are 4 week programs out there, and our school has had very poor results trying to apply for them.



Well, you were saying all it takes is to "kill it on aways" (it's fun to imagine the DO student with 3rd year clinical training at a community hospital absolutely dominating his ACGME away rotations with his clinical ophthalmology and otolaryngology skills in 4th year, while all the MD students from top schools are cowering in fear and begging for mercy and praying to get ranked over this DO student sent by God... sounds like the script from a movie) and have the "stats" to back it up. You also admitted you don't know anyone in Ophtho, so this is all a bit too confusing and surreal for me. Just go ask on the Ophtho forums for this information. Not a single person (in real life) from ACGME ophtho or ENT I have ever spoken to has confirmed what you guys keep shouting... if you want to counter this with a half-baked anecdote from SDN, go ahead... But you can also easily ask on the Ophtho or ENT forums for all this information. In fact, there is a thread happening right now on this very topic at the top of the Ophtho page, and you can search for more that have happened in the past. Obviously, I'm not saying that you don't NEED an away rotation (you need several, because DO schools don't have a home program and there is really no way else to get letters for most DO students), but it's ridiculous to think you will magically get ranked at the program you did an away rotation.

The worst part about this discussion (other than the blatant misinformation) is the fact that people need to have the "last word" by attacking people... does nothing for their argument, and just makes them look childish.

Dude I do not care about optho. Not everything relates back to optho. Give it a rest.

Literally every post you have talks about your optho research and how well you're set up on ACGME rotations because of what you know. Optho is competitive regardless and pretty dang hard for a DO regardless of stats, and I never said otherwise. I am purely talking for the other specialties that aren't the most competitive. You're making blanket posts about EVERY SPECIALTY, which I am disproving. I know several people in other specialties, (gas, surgery, etc) that have matched as places like Cleveland Clinic, Mayo, and Hopkins by doing aways and busting their butts. Guess what? They were all DOs *gasp*.

I am tired of literally everything you say go back to something like optho for when the vast majority of people aren't remotely interested in it. Everyone else that has posted things post about other specialties and residencies in general, which believe it or not, most people are much more interested in.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

There was some talk floating around about how they were thinking about making major changes to the pathology course (basically, not having to read the entire Robbins textbook front to back for exams). Not sure if this has anything to do with the summer break change, though.

In any case, I don't think the time change will make much of a difference -> DO students still will face considerable hardship trying to land research at ACGME academic centers. There are 4 week programs out there, and our school has had very poor results trying to apply for them.



Well, you were saying all it takes is to "kill it on aways" (it's fun to imagine the DO student with 3rd year clinical training at a community hospital absolutely dominating his ACGME away rotations with his clinical ophthalmology and otolaryngology skills in 4th year, while all the MD students from top schools are cowering in fear and begging for mercy and praying to get ranked over this DO student sent by God... sounds like the script from a movie) and have the "stats" to back it up. You also admitted you don't know anyone in Ophtho, so this is all a bit too confusing and surreal for me. Just go ask on the Ophtho forums for this information. Not a single person (in real life) from ACGME ophtho or ENT I have ever spoken to has confirmed what you guys keep shouting... if you want to counter this with a half-baked anecdote from SDN, go ahead... But you can also easily ask on the Ophtho or ENT forums for all this information. In fact, there is a thread happening right now on this very topic at the top of the Ophtho page, and you can search for more that have happened in the past. Obviously, I'm not saying that you don't NEED an away rotation (you need several, because DO schools don't have a home program and there is really no way else to get letters for most DO students), but it's ridiculous to think you will magically get ranked at the program you did an away rotation.

The worst part about this discussion (other than the blatant misinformation) is the fact that people need to have the "last word" by attacking people... does nothing for their argument, and just makes them look childish.

And yet the DOs I know of who matched ACGME Ophtho are unanimous in their opinion that their away rotations are what got them the spot lol

 

[sab3156]

Dude I do not care about optho. Not everything relates back to optho. Give it a rest

Our entire conversation is about competitive specialties, not limited to a single one. We both explicitly agreed that we aren't talking about stuff like Peds and FM...

In any case, I agree with what you're saying if you are now talking only about non-competitive stuff. To be clear though, the other guy posting was giving the same advice to a DO applying ACGME ophtho - he told him to wait until end of 3rd year for research. The only blanket statements made were from him, as he basically said (without knowing anything about what specialty the OP wants to apply for) that end of 3rd hear and beginning of 4th year is not too late for research. That's what started this.

 

[MightBeACylon439]

This is a very dramatic statement. 1st and 2nd year should be spent studying and doing some research IF you have time. I know way too many people who spent too much time in professional societies getting connections, getting to know the "right" people...then got poor board scores because they didn't spend enough time learning the actual material. Their connections came up dry when they didn't have the board scores to match in the specialty they wanted, and they are now in residencies for specialties they have no desire to train in.

So, the point of that story- the end of third year/beginning of fourth year is not "extremely late." Though, I'm sure you'll have your personal anecdotes that lend evidence to your point of view being the right one.

At any rate, @itsadoctor, study hard and do well on boards because you'll find that the higher your boards score is the easier these "connections" will come to you. Research rotations that give you publications and posters in the specialty you end up wanting to chase, Sub-I's, etc etc all go to those with more attractive stats (boards, this means boards).

That being said- the best time to do abroad rotations (which even if it is a vaction, who cares? Med school is hard #treatyoself) would be either after interview season, or for one of your third year electives. I would recommend against third year elective time because that also doubles as Step 2 studying time, and its harder to study for step two when your swatting away mosquito's because you wanna avoid dengue.

I'm sorry where did I say to wait exclusively until third year to do research? I mention here that third year is a good time to do research, though I can't see anytime where I say to wait exclusively until third year to do research. If you were talking to someone else, disregard.

I will re-emphasize,however, that no amount of research you do will make up for a bad or sub-par board score. If you feel confident enough to do research during first and second year and still stay on top of your studies, by all means do so.

 

[IslandStyle808]

I'm sorry where did I say to wait exclusively until third year to do research? I mention here that third year is a good time to do research, though I can't see anytime where I say to wait exclusively until third year to do research. If you were talking to someone else, disregard.

I will re-emphasize,however, that no amount of research you do will make up for a bad or sub-par board score. If you feel confident enough to do research during first and second year and still stay on top of your studies, by all means do so.

If one were to do research at the end of 3rd year, what would be a feasible goal before interviews? Would have a poster presentation or a case report being published? What expectations should one have?

 

[sab3156]

If one were to do research at the end of 3rd year, what would be a feasible goal before interviews? Would have a poster presentation or a case report being published? What expectations should one have?

I don't how it works with other schools, but it seems that for KCUMB, a research rotation would actually only be possible to start in 4th year? Not sure. Depending on who you work with, you can publish case reports like crazy. The issue really is, how much will you get done before interviews? I can't imagine a whole lot.

 

[IslandStyle808]

I don't how it works with other schools, but it seems that for KCUMB, a research rotation would actually only be possible to start in 4th year? Not sure. Depending on who you work with, you can publish case reports like crazy. The issue really is, how much will you get done before interviews? I can't imagine a whole lot.

In most cases you wouldn't, from what I have seen on here. However, there have been a few that were able to get a poster going or something. Most of the time it is more of a talking point at an interview. I really don't want the experience ending up being a talking point.

 

[MightBeACylon439]

If one were to do research at the end of 3rd year, what would be a feasible goal before interviews? Would have a poster presentation or a case report being published? What expectations should one have?

Depending on what type of program or rotation you get into you could get a poster, you'll wanna verify there's a symposium you can get into that summer or fall.

As far as publishing it might not be feasible by interviews or match time, but you should get a pending publication from the deal. That is slightly more than just a talking point.

It's very feasible, I'm doing it and I'm certainly nothing special.