Doctor Nurse (NP). Does it matter?

[smiley2]

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yeah, this conversation is exhausting and pointless. Too bad. I'm enlightened. 🙄

 

[smiley2]

Actually, you work FOR the hospital.


Newsflash......no patients=no hospital. hummmm.........

 

[smiley2]

Smiley2, what kind of nurse are you ICU, floor, private practice, NP, etc ?

open heart ICU

 

[Furrball]

One of my friends in school was an NP anesthesiologist before med school. She matched in anesthesia. When asked, it was her opinion that what she learned as a NP with eleven years experience in nursing was that her nursing experience and med school experience were not the same. The MD training was more in depth and more thorough in regards to learning about pathophysiology, diagnostics, disease management, and treatment.

Very few people on this board do not value working with other professionals. We just do not like it when people discount our abilities and talk-down about our education and training. And that is what it is when a professional group claims that their education and training -- which is not comparable -- is the equivalent to MD/DO. Then take the MD/DO who also has some combination of PhD, DS, Pharm D, MS, MA, MBA, or JD with anywhere from 13 to 23 years of education since high school; they are not going to be sympathetic.

Now take feeling snubbed and add on a financial threat... how should we respond?

13 years: BS/BA 4 years + 2 years for a masters + 4 years med school + 3 years for residency

23 years: BS/BA 4 years, 4 years med school, 7 years PhD, 2 years PhD post-doc, 6 years in neurosurg. residency or 3 years IM with 3 year fellowship.

I will have 17 years of higher education and training by the time I finish residency and fellowship. Man, looking at that I should have listened to my mother; poly-sci undergrad followed by law school. But noooo I had to be a scientist....

 

[Furrball]

open heart ICU

Umm, not exactly the typical RN. Actually the kind of RN most respected by medical students and most residents I know -- yes some of them are too enthralled by their own greatness.

 

[smiley2]

"Very few people on this board do not value working with other professionals. We just do not like it when people discount our abilities and talk-down about our education and training".



I hope this wasn't meant for me. I did not intend to "discount" anyone's abilities. Thats exactly what I'm speaking out against. Just curious, why did your NP friend decide to go on to med school? Is she glad she did?

 

[Furrball]

Very few people on this board do not value working with other professionals. We just do not like it when people discount our abilities and talk-down about our education and training.



I hope this wasn't meant for me. I did not intend to "discount" anyone's abilities. Thats exactly what I'm speaking out against. Just curious, why did your NP friend decide to go on to med school? Is she glad she did?

I didn't think you were, but that is where this conversation is coming from. As a group MD/DO make a lot of sacrifices and deffered gratification for our education. Then add a group who is seen as taking away one of the few real perks we get, financial stability. When I start residency I am going to make $10 an hour for 80 hours a week for 49 weeks a year. My total debt load is pushing $170,000 and I drive a ten year old car. I have classmates with a quarter million in debt. Yes money is on our minds.

As to why she decided to go to med school I do not know. I never thought to ask. I was curious if she saw much of a difference between the two types of training. My class also has a woman who was a surgery floor nurse. I think she is an RN with a BSN. She is going into ortho. I think she wanted to play with the power tools.

 

[CJMPre-Med]

" Just curious, why did your NP friend decide to go on to med school? Is she glad she did?

Umm, maybe it was because she said to herself, "hey, if I want to become a physician, and do the things that physicians traditionally do, then why don't I just..you know...become a physician?"


Quite frankly, smiley-- and with all due respect-- you seem very dense. Your inferiority and persecution complexes are clearly in evidence when you make your posts. Sorry, but physicians are "the pinnacle" of the health care field in terms of patient management-- and that is not because they are somehow inherently "more intelligent" than nurses (after all, I'm sure there are nurses that have higher IQ's than some doctors), but rather simply due to the rigors of their respective training programs. That's all-- nothing more or less.


And it takes a special sort of person-- a special brand of obtuseness-- to not be able to grasp these distinctions. You do yourself, and your profession, a disservice in speaking in the manner in which you have. It's a shame, really; it is, ultimately, just part of a larger societal problem, however.

 

[smiley2]

I didn't think you were, but that is where this conversation is coming from. As a group MD/DO make a lot of sacrifices and deffered gratification for our education. Then add a group who is seen as taking away one of the few real perks we get, financial stability. When I start residency I am going to make $10 an hour for 80 hours a week for 49 weeks a year. My total debt load is pushing $170,000 and I drive a ten year old car. I have classmates with a quarter million in debt. Yes money is on our minds.

As to why she decided to go to med school I do not know. I never thought to ask. I was curious if she saw much of a difference between the two types of training. My class also has a woman who was a surgery floor nurse. I think she is an RN with a BSN. She is going into ortho. I think she wanted to play with the power tools.

Ortho, whew....good for her. Couldn't do it. Tried it, hated it. power tools are fun though! What area of medicine are you going into and when will you finish? yeah, money would be on my mind too.

 

[smiley2]

Umm, maybe it was because she said to herself, "hey, if I want to become a physician, and do the things that physicians traditionally do, then why don't I just..you know...become a physician?"


Quite frankly, smiley-- and with all due respect-- you seem very dense. Your inferiority and persecution complexes are clearly in evidence when you make your posts. Sorry, but physicians are "the pinnacle" of the health care field in terms of patient management-- and that is not because they are somehow inherently "more intelligent" than nurses (after all, I'm sure there are nurses that have higher IQ's than some doctors), but rather simply due to the rigors of their respective training programs. That's all-- nothing more or less.


And it takes a special sort of person-- a special brand of obtuseness-- to not be able to grasp these distinctions. You do yourself, and your profession, a disservice in speaking in the manner in which you have. It's a shame, really; it is, ultimately, just part of a larger societal problem, however.

You need to go back and read this entire thread again. YOU seem fairly dense yourself. I haven't attacked anyone the way you just attacked me. Maybe you are doing your profession a disservice. oh, and I wasnt talking to you anyway..... It's apparent that you are in favor of the "God Complex".

 

[rn29306]

One of my friends in school was an NP anesthesiologist before med school. She matched in anesthesia.

If graduating medical school and completing a residency means being an anesthesiologist, then how can you have a friend who is an anesthesiologist BEFORE med school. Was she a NP who worked for an anesthesia group or was she a CRNA? The two roles are entirely different...

 

[Whodathunkit]

gotta work on not responding...

smiley is doing a decent job by civil responses(mostly anyway)...let's give her the same respect.

Otherwise this thread will turn ugly and ultimately get locked. Only to resurface under a different thread name...like we need another one of these.

But I have to agree with one observation

Originally Posted by CJMPre-Med
Umm, maybe it was because she said to herself, "hey, if I want to become a physician, and do the things that physicians traditionally do, then why don't I just..you know...become a physician?"

Seems like a fair answer.

Speaking of different threads...take a look at this one over in Allied Health.

Same debate, different speakers.

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=180208&page=1&pp=20

 

[Furrball]

If graduating medical school and completing a residency means being an anesthesiologist, then how can you have a friend who is an anesthesiologist BEFORE med school. Was she a NP who worked for an anesthesia group or was she a CRNA? The two roles are entirely different...

She was a nurse practitioner anesthesiologist. I think she was a CRNA before becoming an NP, and still worked in gas in the OR. My reason in bringing my friend up was as an example of a person who has done both the NP and the MD. I've met other NP anesthesiologists too so I don't think it is that uncommon.

 

[Furrball]

Ortho, whew....good for her. Couldn't do it. Tried it, hated it. power tools are fun though! What area of medicine are you going into and when will you finish? yeah, money would be on my mind too.

Internal medicine and then I'm thinking pulm/critical care, but I'll let some of residency occur before I make a final decision on fellowship. Nephrology is pretty interesting too. Then I say what about nephrology-critical care? I just need to win powerball.....

I think these sites are kind of like alcohol. People say things that they would normally self edit and not say out loud. Which is probably a way of venting frustration. Still I think a lot of what gets said here is hot air.

 

[rn29306]

She was a nurse practitioner anesthesiologist. I think she was a CRNA before becoming an NP, and still worked in gas in the OR. She will graduate with her MD this summer. Also she matched in anesthesia.

You do realize that only a graduated MD who completes an anesthesia residency can be called or referred to as an anesthesiologist. So the words "nurse practitioner anesthesiologist" is a misnomer and makes no medical sense whatsoever.

She had to have been a CRNA in order to pass gas. NP's alone cannot do this, their education is one of primary care in some aspect and not in delivering anesthesia, that is the education of a CRNA. NPs do work for anesthesia groups and pre-op screen, test, and fill out pre-anesthesia forms.

 

[24858]

Let's see four years of no income, plus I get to pay the school over $30,000 a year. My family and I have been on food stamps, wic checks, and had to live in subsidized housing (ie section 8). And we started into med school with over $30,000 in the bank (which is now less than $5000). For the first two years of med school I hardly went out on any weekends, the weeknights were never my own, I hardly saw my two sons, lost a lot of time with my wife. I figured that I worked at least over 80 hours a week during my first two years. Now I am on my third year and have had to work surgery, im, fp, and ob. Fp and ob werent so bad. But surgery and im I was lucky to have one free day, and that was to study. Most days I study when I come home from clerkship and am lucky to spend more than a half hour with my kids. On the weekends it is not much different. I have sacrificed thanksgiving, birthdays, and other holidays, where I wasnt mentally and/or physically there, b/c I was either studying for a test or preparing for numerous tests. Lets not forget about the fact that since I am a DO, I have studied for comlex and usmle step I. Lets also not forget about the step 2 and step 2 cs coming up and the expenses of those which are greater than thousand dollars.
Then in the next months that follow I get to shell out another few grand to apply to residency programs and then the match. Then the few thousand to travel to interviews! Not to mention the away rotations I will do, another few hundred there.
The fun doesnt stop after medical school, sure you are no longer the student at the bottom of the food chain, and at least as a resident you get paid, but I have heard the workload gets more exhausting as a resident! Lets not forget step 3! Did I forget about the constant worry about landing a residency I am interested in, not having to scramble, and hopefully I will live somewhere my family will like. Constantly having to worry, am I competitive enough for this residency or for this program? Recommendation letters, personal statements, deadlines constantly, and becoming informed about all the different programs.
Then I get to pay back my loans, over a hundred grand, pay for numerous licensing fees and exams. And I get the added weight of having to deal with other people trying to steal my patient load! Oh, wait a minute I forgot about the whole friggin ordeal of getting into med school. But that is a whole nother story.
Man, I knew I shouldve become a dentist!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[smiley2]

gotta work on not responding...

smiley is doing a decent job by civil responses(mostly anyway)...let's give her the same respect.

Otherwise this thread will turn ugly and ultimately get locked. Only to resurface under a different thread name...like we need another one of these.

But I have to agree with one observation

Seems like a fair answer.

Speaking of different threads...take a look at this one over in Allied Health.

Same debate, different speakers.

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=180208&page=1&pp=20[/QUOT

Thanks, I really am trying to be civil. After all, I replied to this topic to say that I wish doctors and nurses could respect each other (and I do respect doctors for all their hard work). Something went wrong..... I was just curious about the CRNA who went back to med school. CRNA school requires so much work. I can't imagine going through that and then deciding to go to med school. But, some people thought I deserved a snippy remark.....oh well.

 

[Furrball]

You do realize that only a graduated MD who completes an anesthesia residency can be called or referred to as an anesthesiologist. So the words "nurse practitioner anesthesiologist" is a misnomer and makes no medical sense whatsoever.

She had to have been a CRNA in order to pass gas. NP's alone cannot do this, their education is one of primary care in some aspect and not in delivering anesthesia, that is the education of a CRNA. NPs do work for anesthesia groups and pre-op screen, test, and fill out pre-anesthesia forms.

spare me the semantics lecture. She was an NP who passed gas and very touchy if you accidently called her a crna. Now she is going to be an MD training to pass gas. The exact specifics of her licesure before medical school have absolutely nothing to do with why I brought her up as an example.

 

[rn29306]

spare me the semantics lecture. She was an NP who passed gas and very touchy if you accidently called her a crna. Now she is going to be an MD training to pass gas. The exact specifics of her licesure before medical school have absolutely nothing to do with why I brought her up as an example.

Perhaps you should know the roles and EXACT SPECIFICS of the people you talk about before you bring it up. I really don't care the reasons for your bringing it up, but NPs cannot pass gas on an NP license alone, feel free to look it up yourself. I cannot believe I am having a back-and-forth with a MS4 over who should be called a doctor and why a graduate nurse (in whatever field-CRNA or NP) cannot be called an anesthesiologist. You guys should know these things. Perhaps you should realize anesthesia is my world and I just may know more about it than you do, semantics and all.

You want an unbiased litmus test? Go on the anesthesia forum and ask if there is such a thing as a "NP anesthesiologist that applied to med school".

 

[briansmichaud]

Now, now, try to control that nurse attitude of yours. Actually, I don't care anything about your education. I was parodying one of your earlier replies.

I can't wait till I have my own practice. I will never hire a nurse. Only MAs that aspire to be physicians.

 

[kas23]

We really all should give this Supernurse idea a second chance. It is true, medicine is evolving. A doctor who practiced 50 years ago would not even recognize medicine today. Think of all the paperwork and forms doctors have to fill out today. I bet a PCP spends half of his/her day with paperwork...medicaid/medicare forms, disability forms, sick notes, insurance appeals, referrals, you name it. All these forms would be a great project for this Supernurse and then doctors could go back to doing what they do best, practicing medicine (just like old times.)

 

[USAF MD '05]

Smiley-
I feel like I can speak fairly well to the differences in medical education between RNs and MDs, since I was with my wife all through her nursing training. You speak of all the patho/phys you have studied in school. As far as I know, nurses take one semester of basic human physiology, a semester of anatomy (many times without the aid of a cadaver) and a bunch of ancillary classes that teach nurses the skills they need to survive on the wards. (I am writing this with my wife looking over my shoulder. She snickered at the posts where you try in vain to equate your years of education with that of an MD.)
Your school after all is 2 years after 2 years of basic prereqs, and then straight into the workforce. It is not an intense look at the normal human makeup followed by the pathologic basis of disease folowed by treatment strategies followed by 3-7 years of trial by fire hell on earth. Please do not presume that your educational years and efforts equal mine, and I will not presume to know as much about the day to day care of a post-op open heart patient.(I bet I know the basic physiology of the heart as well or better than you though.) It is like a slap in the face to those of us who have sacrificed and struggled for so many years, for you to say that you are the same.
The question is.. am I more important than you? Of course not. Every doctor knows who carries out the patient care. That is what you ARE trained for. Without that care, patients die, and the healthcare system implodes. What I am trained to do is make dangerous decisions based on years of knowledge and experience gained.
Please also do not presume a 2 year master's degree that gives the coveted title of NP or CRNA is in any way equal in breadth or scope of basic knowledge of that of your typical MD/DO. You are learning advanced clinical skills without the underlying base that I have busted my ass for 8 years to obtain.
Please don't feel attacked. You are right we all have our places and are cogs in a larger wheel. However to say that the physician is not the pinnacle of the profession is either naive, stupid or both. Of course they are. That's why it takes so long.

Steve

PS- This is from Steve's wife. I agree with a lot of what Steve said in his post. I went through nursing school. I have lived through his medical school. I would go back and do all 4 years of school again rather than live through his 4 of medical school again. (With 3 years of residency to go..yay!!) What we did is nowhere near the same as what docs do, though until I saw it from his side, I would have probably made the same argument as you. He still asks me questions on how to go about giving the best care. I defer to him on diagnosis and decision making. (He still knows who's boss, though! 😀 )

 

[fab4fan]

Another nurses's opinion here, FWIW.

Personally, I wouldn't go to a DNP. I think if you want to be an independent practitioner, then you go to med school, plain and simple.

But I cannot agree with those who say that most physicians have a lot of respect for the nursing profession. Please...toddle on over to the "Allied Health" forum and take a look at the hostile things people have said there. Even in this thread, comments like "How do we get nurses out of hospital administration," or "I'm gonna help take them out when there's a lawsuit," as well as the countless comments that nurses are basically only useful as eye-candy...these are not the sort of things that are said if you respect someone.

I think part of what has driven nursing to seek out alternative roles is sheer frustration with being disrespected, by hospital admin., physicians, even the general public.

 

[JMK2005]

Perhaps you should know the roles and EXACT SPECIFICS of the people you talk about before you bring it up. I really don't care the reasons for your bringing it up, but NPs cannot pass gas on an NP license alone, feel free to look it up yourself. I cannot believe I am having a back-and-forth with a MS4 over who should be called a doctor and why a graduate nurse (in whatever field-CRNA or NP) cannot be called an anesthesiologist. You guys should know these things. Perhaps you should realize anesthesia is my world and I just may know more about it than you do, semantics and all.

You want an unbiased litmus test? Go on the anesthesia forum and ask if there is such a thing as a "NP anesthesiologist that applied to med school".

I think the tone of your response speaks alot about YOU. Not very nice. 👎

 

[smiley2]

Smiley-
I feel like I can speak fairly well to the differences in medical education between RNs and MDs, since I was with my wife all through her nursing training. You speak of all the patho/phys you have studied in school. As far as I know, nurses take one semester of basic human physiology, a semester of anatomy (many times without the aid of a cadaver) and a bunch of ancillary classes that teach nurses the skills they need to survive on the wards. (I am writing this with my wife looking over my shoulder. She snickered at the posts where you try in vain to equate your years of education with that of an MD.)
Your school after all is 2 years after 2 years of basic prereqs, and then straight into the workforce. It is not an intense look at the normal human makeup followed by the pathologic basis of disease folowed by treatment strategies followed by 3-7 years of trial by fire hell on earth. Please do not presume that your educational years and efforts equal mine, and I will not presume to know as much about the day to day care of a post-op open heart patient.(I bet I know the basic physiology of the heart as well or better than you though.) It is like a slap in the face to those of us who have sacrificed and struggled for so many years, for you to say that you are the same.
The question is.. am I more important than you? Of course not. Every doctor knows who carries out the patient care. That is what you ARE trained for. Without that care, patients die, and the healthcare system implodes. What I am trained to do is make dangerous decisions based on years of knowledge and experience gained.
Please also do not presume a 2 year master's degree that gives the coveted title of NP or CRNA is in any way equal in breadth or scope of basic knowledge of that of your typical MD/DO. You are learning advanced clinical skills without the underlying base that I have busted my ass for 8 years to obtain.
Please don't feel attacked. You are right we all have our places and are cogs in a larger wheel. However to say that the physician is not the pinnacle of the profession is either naive, stupid or both. Of course they are. That's why it takes so long.

Steve

PS- This is from Steve's wife. I agree with a lot of what Steve said in his post. I went through nursing school. I have lived through his medical school. I would go back and do all 4 years of school again rather than live through his 4 of medical school again. (With 3 years of residency to go..yay!!) What we did is nowhere near the same as what docs do, though until I saw it from his side, I would have probably made the same argument as you. He still asks me questions on how to go about giving the best care. I defer to him on diagnosis and decision making. (He still knows who's boss, though! 😀 )

I really don't care if your wife is a nurse. If you had actually read my posts before attacking me, you would know that I never claimed to have the same education as an MD. I don't want to be an MD. I don't want to compete with an MD. In fact, I believe I said that nursing and medicine have a different focus. Didn't I? I NEVER said what we do is the same as what they do. Read it again and then you can attack me. I am simply talking about evolving roles of nurses and respect for all health care professionals. period. Oh and until you know me personally, don't talk to me about struggle and sacrifice. I was NOT the one who said that a physician wasn't the "pinnacle" of medicine. Read it again.

 

[pushinepi2]

I really don't care if your wife is a nurse....

Neither do I, but we've sure moved away from exploring the interesting issues of liability and practice scope! I'm more inspired to figure out the curriculim for the "advanced practice" physician. Since residency and fellowship no longer secure our places at the 'pinnacle,' maybe we need to devise fresh ways of cementing superiority. How about courses in ego refinement or dictatorship? Would that ensure us higher reimbursement?

Steady as she goes,

-P

 

[MD'05]

Wow, if nursing curriculum doesn't concentrate on pathophysiology then WHY have I wasted countless hours studying.....patho?! You can't manage patient issues if you don't understand the patho behind their problems.I hate to tell you this, but there are some nurses smart enough to kick your ass right out of the "triangle". Don't say I didn't warn you.

Right. You don't know what pathophysiology is.

There might be nurses fat enough, but never smart enough.

 

[jmattwilson]

Let's see four years of no income, plus I get to pay the school over $30,000 a year. My family and I have been on food stamps, wic checks, and had to live in subsidized housing (ie section 8). And we started into med school with over $30,000 in the bank (which is now less than $5000). For the first two years of med school I hardly went out on any weekends, the weeknights were never my own, I hardly saw my two sons, lost a lot of time with my wife. I figured that I worked at least over 80 hours a week during my first two years. Now I am on my third year and have had to work surgery, im, fp, and ob. Fp and ob werent so bad. But surgery and im I was lucky to have one free day, and that was to study. Most days I study when I come home from clerkship and am lucky to spend more than a half hour with my kids. On the weekends it is not much different. I have sacrificed thanksgiving, birthdays, and other holidays, where I wasnt mentally and/or physically there, b/c I was either studying for a test or preparing for numerous tests. Lets not forget about the fact that since I am a DO, I have studied for comlex and usmle step I. Lets also not forget about the step 2 and step 2 cs coming up and the expenses of those which are greater than thousand dollars.
Then in the next months that follow I get to shell out another few grand to apply to residency programs and then the match. Then the few thousand to travel to interviews! Not to mention the away rotations I will do, another few hundred there.
The fun doesnt stop after medical school, sure you are no longer the student at the bottom of the food chain, and at least as a resident you get paid, but I have heard the workload gets more exhausting as a resident! Lets not forget step 3! Did I forget about the constant worry about landing a residency I am interested in, not having to scramble, and hopefully I will live somewhere my family will like. Constantly having to worry, am I competitive enough for this residency or for this program? Recommendation letters, personal statements, deadlines constantly, and becoming informed about all the different programs.
Then I get to pay back my loans, over a hundred grand, pay for numerous licensing fees and exams. And I get the added weight of having to deal with other people trying to steal my patient load! Oh, wait a minute I forgot about the whole friggin ordeal of getting into med school. But that is a whole nother story.
Man, I knew I shouldve become a dentist!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Ditto.
I completed two degrees as an undergrad, Mathematics and BioChem. I had 180 hours at graduation, only needed 140, and did it in four years. My first year of medschool I studied so much I often forgot to eat and I think I lost 25 pounds (By the way I was already under weight). Second year was pure hell although I was married by that time and had other stuff to relieve my suffering. Third year was a welcome change even though I was often at the hospital more than 120 hours a week. While it wasn't the norm there were frank belittlings in front of peer groups. Scrub techs, floor nurses, HUCs, etc were constantly treating us like kindergartners. So many times it is easy to feel like no one appreciates anything you do no matter how hard you try. Fourth year has been a nice reprieve, but MeaCulpa is right it costs a lot of money and all that travelling gets old quick. I will be starting my internship in General Surgery this summer and it will be back to the grind By the time I am done with GS I will have put in 13-15 years of work. If I do a CT fellowship 17. Would I do it again? In a heart beat!!
As for nurses I feel they do have a place, a very important place, and it takes a special person to be a good nurse. They get props. However I have trained alongside midlevels both Np's and PA's and it was like night and day. Some of them were exceptionally bright people who really wanted to learn while others were lazy oaffs. We had one PA student on my peds roation she never took call, frequently missed rounds, never knew any answers to pimping session, never followed up on Pt's and demanded to be treated as our equal. She even had the audacity that in a month she would be out "Managing Patients" , pulling in $70G while we were working our A#$% off as residents being paid in "Monkey Biscuits". Scarey to think someone like that is out there with real responsibility right now. I think the rigorous training of medical school/residency weeds those types out and it rightly should.
My best friend is going into PCare (by the way he is the best student in my class) and he owes almost $300G how long will it take him to pay that off? Lets see about 15-20 years according to FA if he wants to live decent. So you see it is quite a commitment becoming a physician in time, effort, and economy. We sacrifice a lot ( Our 20s/30s what should be the best years of our lifes) and should rightly recieve some professional respect. Not to have a god complex or anything just in recognition of achievement.

 

[jmattwilson]

Perhaps you should know the roles and EXACT SPECIFICS of the people you talk about before you bring it up. I really don't care the reasons for your bringing it up, but NPs cannot pass gas on an NP license alone, feel free to look it up yourself. I cannot believe I am having a back-and-forth with a MS4 over who should be called a doctor and why a graduate nurse (in whatever field-CRNA or NP) cannot be called an anesthesiologist. You guys should know these things. Perhaps you should realize anesthesia is my world and I just may know more about it than you do, semantics and all.

You want an unbiased litmus test? Go on the anesthesia forum and ask if there is such a thing as a "NP anesthesiologist that applied to med school".

Hostility

 

[MD'05]

I hope this wasn't meant for me. I did not intend to "discount" anyone's abilities. Thats exactly what I'm speaking out against. Just curious, why did your NP friend decide to go on to med school? Is she glad she did?

Re-read your posts. You are quite condescending and nasty.

 

[smiley2]

I have a PharmD from a well-respected program, and am now in med school, so I am getting a firsthand view of the differences between the two degrees. The PharmD gave me a broad and thorough understanding of medications and drug therapy that my med school's pharmacology course doesn't even come close to teaching. However, the basic sciences of pharmacy school are completely different from those of medical school, and so the pathophysiology I learned as part of my clinical pharmacy education was exceptional for pharmacy, but nowhere near as thorough as what I've learned in med school. And nursing programs--even NP programs--teach neither pathophysiology nor pharmacotherapy in that kind of depth.

Smiley, before I went to med school, I would have felt exactly as you do about the comparability of the two degrees. In fact, I still do believe that any of these routes to clinical practice give you sufficient skills to practice with a certain degree of independent judgment in your area of expertise. And certainly every member of the team has an essential role to play in the care of a patient. But there is no clinical doctorate that requires anything even remotely resembling the comprehensive knowledge of human structure, function and dysfunction that is currently required of MDs and DOs. That is not at all an insult. It is a simple fact, and I think anyone who holds both an MD/DO as well as one of these other clinical practice degrees would concede that point. They are equivalent in depth in their respective fields, but they are not *equal* in their scope of knowledge or their ability to diagnose and treat patients, and it is a disservice to patients to consider them interchangeable as providers of care.

Tell me, how DO I feel about the comparability of the two degrees? I NEVER INTENDED TO COMPARE THE TWO OR IMPLY THAT THEY ARE INTERCHANGABLE. People, learn to read. I CANNOT believe that this whole thing started with me sticking up for a doctor, especially after the way I have been treated here. Learned my lesson. I'll have to remember that the next time I'm in a position to save one of your asses.

 

[MD'05]

You need to go back and read this entire thread again. YOU seem fairly dense yourself. I haven't attacked anyone the way you just attacked me. Maybe you are doing your profession a disservice. oh, and I wasnt talking to you anyway..... It's apparent that you are in favor of the "God Complex".

You have got to be kidding me. You are so typical.

 

[smiley2]

Re-read your posts. You are quite condescending and nasty.

YOU are the one who has been nasty here. Maybe you need to read them again. I actually came here with good intentions of adult conversation. So much for that. You are quite "typical" yourself.

 

[USAF MD '05]

I was NOT the one who said that a physician wasn't the "pinnacle" of medicine. Read it again.

Sorry- I stand corrected on the pinnacle part. That goes out to GENE GODDESS. Your name kept coming up so much, and this thread has got my eyes glazed over I misspoke...or typed..or whatever.

Wow, if nursing curriculum doesn't concentrate on pathophysiology then WHY have I wasted countless hours studying.....patho?! You can't manage patient issues if you don't understand the patho behind their problems.

You still can't say the nursing curriculum focuses on advanced pathophys.

I really don't care if your wife is a nurse. If you had actually read my posts before attacking me, you would know that I never claimed to have the same education as an MD.

Sorry about the wife is a nurse thing. I just didn't want to be taken as a nurse hating type, or one that was speaking out of ignorance. I don't feel like you were attacked at all. I tried to present my case in a polite,civilized manner. Everytime someone disagrees with you you claim you are being attcked. I think barring a few guys blowing smoke out of their asses making silly comments, you've gotten lots of respect on this board, especially considering how polar opposite your positions are from most of ours. You will find nothing but niceness coming from me, (and if that wasn't obvious, I apologize again) and we can always, in our great country, agree to disagree.
Good luck and no hard feelings.

 

[smiley2]

Ditto.
I completed two degrees as an undergrad, Mathematics and BioChem. I had 180 hours at graduation, only needed 140, and did it in four years. My first year of medschool I studied so much I often forgot to eat and I think I lost 25 pounds (By the way I was already under weight). Second year was pure hell although I was married by that time and had other stuff to relieve my suffering. Third year was a welcome change even though I was often at the hospital more than 120 hours a week. While it wasn't the norm there were frank belittlings in front of peer groups. Scrub techs, floor nurses, HUCs, etc were constantly treating us like kindergartners. So many times it is easy to feel like no one appreciates anything you do no matter how hard you try. Fourth year has been a nice reprieve, but MeaCulpa is right it costs a lot of money and all that travelling gets old quick. I will be starting my internship in General Surgery this summer and it will be back to the grind By the time I am done with GS I will have put in 13-15 years of work. If I do a CT fellowship 17. Would I do it again? In a heart beat!!
As for nurses I feel they do have a place, a very important place, and it takes a special person to be a good nurse. They get props. However I have trained alongside midlevels both Np's and PA's and it was like night and day. Some of them were exceptionally bright people who really wanted to learn while others were lazy oaffs. We had one PA student on my peds roation she never took call, frequently missed rounds, never knew any answers to pimping session, never followed up on Pt's and demanded to be treated as our equal. She even had the audacity that in a month she would be out "Managing Patients" , pulling in $70G while we were working our A#$% off as residents being paid in "Monkey Biscuits". Scarey to think someone like that is out there with real responsibility right now. I think the rigorous training of medical school/residency weeds those types out and it rightly should.
My best friend is going into PCare (by the way he is the best student in my class) and he owes almost $300G how long will it take him to pay that off? Lets see about 15-20 years according to FA if he wants to live decent. So you see it is quite a commitment becoming a physician in time, effort, and economy. We sacrifice a lot ( Our 20s/30s what should be the best years of our lifes) and should rightly recieve some professional respect. Not to have a god complex or anything just in recognition of achievement.

I believe I have said that I certainly respect doctors for their hard work. It is an amazing accomplishment that takes unimaginable determination and will to succeed. However, I do NOT respect those people who attack without reading the posts.

 

[MAC10]

Just give me my own secret code to the Diebold, the right to take a break when somone asks me to do something, the ability to call in the morining before im supposed to show up, all the pot luck i can eat in the breakroom my advanced MD and mabey we can call it even.

 

[USAF MD '05]

YOU are the one who has been nasty here. Maybe you need to read them again. I actually came here with good intentions of adult conversation. So much for that. You are quite "typical" yourself.

You have been pretty nasty...

YOU do not know me. YOU do not know my accomplishments. YOU do not know how hard I have worked to get to where I am. Doctors are NOT the only people who work long and hard to reach a goal. YOU have NO right to insult me. YOU are pathetic.

There was nothing insulting leading to this post, but somebody got called pathetic. Plus- YOU used lots of angy caps.

So what exactly DO you think a nurse should be doing??? Cleaning poop, right.....because we aren't smart enough to do anything else? Am I thinking more along the lines of a brilliant doctor now?

No one said anything remotely like this.

Why did you go to med school? For prestige, power, money, women, to attack nurses, or to care for people?

hmm...let me think.


And then a trend begins...

.....oh, and you don't know anything about me or my education so don't assume.

.

I hate to tell you this, but there are some nurses smart enough to kick your ass right out of the "triangle".

You need to go back and read this entire thread again. YOU seem fairly dense yourself. I haven't attacked anyone the way you just attacked me. Maybe you are doing your profession a disservice. oh, and I wasnt talking to you anyway..... It's apparent that you are in favor of the "God Complex

Just saying....

 

[smiley2]

Sorry- I stand corrected on the pinnacle part. That goes out to GENE GODDESS. Your name kept coming up so much, and this thread has got my eyes glazed over I misspoke...or typed..or whatever.



You still can't say the nursing curriculum focuses on advanced pathophys.


Sorry about the wife is a nurse thing. I just didn't want to be taken as a nurse hating type, or one that was speaking out of ignorance. I don't feel like you were attacked at all. I tried to present my case in a polite,civilized manner. Everytime someone disagrees with you you claim you are being attcked. I think barring a few guys blowing smoke out of their asses making silly comments, you've gotten lots of respect on this board, especially considering how polar opposite your positions are from most of ours. You will find nothing but niceness coming from me, (and if that wasn't obvious, I apologize again) and we can always, in our great country, agree to disagree.
Good luck and no hard feelings.

Good luck to you too. Everyone is entitled to their opinion. We should be able to share our opinions without offending others. If you read all of the posts (NOT that you would want to) you would see that I was NOT the first to attack and that in fact, I have been attacked by certain posters here. Thats ok though. I've learned so much. Good luck with residency.

 

[smiley2]

Hello everyone. This has been a wonderful, enlightening experience. Good luck to all of you. Hopefully, med schools will begin to teach better reading and communication skills. I've had a great time though.
thanks for your posts. Oh, and to usaf md05, all of those quotes were in response to nasty posters. read it again.

 

[Whisker Barrel Cortex]

Hello everyone. This has been a wonderful, enlightening experience. Good luck to all of you. Hopefully, med schools will begin to teach better reading and communication skills. I've had a great time though.
thanks for your posts. Oh, and to usaf md05, all of those quotes were in response to nasty posters. read it again.

I think you really need to stop being so defensive. Unless some posts were deleted, there was only one "nasty" response compared to numerous well thought out discussions on the topic before you started being offended. Please lay off the "I hope you learn to communicate" crap because anyone who reads the first few posts after your initial post will see that you are the one that really lacks reading comprehension. I think you came here looking to be offended and got what you wanted.

oh smiley, yes there is some bitterness in seeing people who haven't completed MD and residency feign a physician or attain the same privileges as one. I'm not sure people who have not gone through the academic boot camp that starts in undergrad and continues through residency can understand the amount of challenges, mental and physical stamina, delayed gratification, torture and time required to accomplish this distinction, so yes, to us it is a little more important than to an outside observer.

Notice the lack of personal insult. Only an explanation of why physicians are bitter.

YOU do not know me. YOU do not know my accomplishments. YOU do not know how hard I have worked to get to where I am. Doctors are NOT the only people who work long and hard to reach a goal. YOU have NO right to insult me. YOU are pathetic.

Notice the personal insult and seriously offended tone.

Seriously, re-read the first few posts after your initial post. Except for the one that talked of testifying against NPs, they were very reasonable responses. If you really thought any of these posts were attacking you in any way, you have some serious issues.

In response to what has been mostly a reasonable response, even if they disagree with you, you have been acting very immature and defensive. Several times you accuse people of attacking you who were doing nothing of the sort. Disagreeing with you is not ATTACKING you (Please refer to the post above with the nurse wife. The tone of that post is very reasonable and respectful. Yet you accuse him of attacking you).

 

[GeneGoddess]

Sorry- I stand corrected on the pinnacle part. That goes out to GENE GODDESS.

Wow...called out in all caps. You know, the behavior of some of my MD and med student colleagues is quite flabbergasting. Not here, necessarily, but elsewhere. Calling nurses fat? Assuming that those in the medical profession are all wanna-be MDs? Degrading non-MD doctoral degrees? And justifying it by quoting the amount of tuition paid and the hours studied? Do you realize how egotistical it sounds? Someone even suggested here that I should "explore in detail what it takes to train a physician" so that I "will understand the difference." Did s/he assume that because I agreed with smiley's original post, that I was not an MD (since no MD could possibly believe that a doctoral level nursing degree was a good idea)?

I mentioned this thread to my husband (the PhD scientist), and he wondered how many people posting were post-residency and in "the real world". He worked as an ER tech to help pay for college before going to graduate school and was shocked at the way that many med students sniggered at non-MDs. He also once saw an ER doc dress down a student for such behavior. And I wonder how many people here had another career in the medical field before attending medical school. I was an EMT for several years. It gave me wonderful training for interacting with patients and working gracefully under pressure. Yeah, the physiology training was basic, but I didn't need to know it for my job. A classmate of mine was a pharmacologist for several years before going to med school. Her training was different, but she used to complain that our pharm classes glossed over so much important information, she worried that physicians wouldn't know enough about the drugs they were prescribing.

Yes, I said that an MD was not THE pinnacle of the medical profession. I said it was ONE of them. And to those of you who feel the need to make derogatory comments about others in the medical profession, I really hope it comes back to bite you in the a$$. The sooner everyone learns to use each others strengths to work together as a TEAM, the better off we will all be.

 

[USAF MD '05]

Hello everyone. This has been a wonderful, enlightening experience. Good luck to all of you. Hopefully, med schools will begin to teach better reading and communication skills. I've had a great time though.
thanks for your posts. Oh, and to usaf md05, all of those quotes were in response to nasty posters. read it again.

I read it. I saw nothing nasty about almost any posts...oh well...agree to disagree again. Good luck!

 

[smiley2]

I think you really need to stop being so defensive. Unless some posts were deleted, there was only one "nasty" response compared to numerous well thought out discussions on the topic before you started being offended. Please lay off the "I hope you learn to communicate" crap because anyone who reads the first few posts after your initial post will see that you are the one that really lacks reading comprehension. I think you came here looking to be offended and got what you wanted.



Notice the lack of personal insult. Only an explanation of why physicians are bitter.



Notice the personal insult and seriously offended tone.

Seriously, re-read the first few posts after your initial post. Except for the one that talked of testifying against NPs, they were very reasonable responses. If you really thought any of these posts were attacking you in any way, you have some serious issues.

In response to what has been mostly a reasonable response, even if they disagree with you, you have been acting very immature and defensive.

Ok, this post and I'm seriously moving on to friendlier places. I did not come here to be offended nor to offend anyone else. I came here to see if I could gain some understanding as to why professionals can't respect each other because it really is ridiculous. I really have gained some understanding. The first quote....I did take that personally because I felt that the poster was implying that I didn't know what it was like to work for years and struggle to reach a goal and that doctors are the only people who have to endure such struggles. That certainly isn't true. Most of the other comments were what I would consider "nice-nasty"- being very insulting while attempting to seem innocent. I'm a very direct person and I'm not good at "nice-nasty".
Sorry. moving on....this is crazy.

 

[USAF MD '05]

Wow...called out in all caps. You know, the behavior of some of my MD and med student colleagues is quite flabbergasting. Not here, necessarily, but elsewhere. Calling nurses fat? Assuming that those in the medical profession are all wanna-be MDs? Degrading non-MD doctoral degrees?

Sorry about the Caps, Goddess...post call and all that. I agree with you 100% about the derogatory tones. I see it all the time as a student. I actually hang with the nurses and techs more than the other docs. Lots more lais back and fun.I also learned long ago that being nice gets you much further than arrogant and rude. I have had residents send me to ask staff for stuff, because they know that I have rapport with them, while they have somehow managed to get on every nurse in every shift's bad side! To quote Rodney King...Why can't we all just get along?
I am officially going to bed. 😴 😴 😴 😴

 

[Whisker Barrel Cortex]

Ok, this post and I'm seriously moving on to friendlier places. I did not come here to be offended nor to offend anyone else. I came here to see if I could gain some understanding as to why professionals can't respect each other because it really is ridiculous. I really have gained some understanding. The first quote....I did take that personally because I felt that the poster was implying that I didn't know what it was like to work for years and struggle to reach a goal and that doctors are the only people who have to endure such struggles. That certainly isn't true. Most of the other comments were what I would consider "nice-nasty"- being very insulting while attempting to seem innocent. I'm a very direct person and I'm not good at "nice-nasty".
Sorry. moving on....this is crazy.

The "nice-nasty" posts were actually nice but said they disagreed with you. That is not the same thing as being nasty. This is exactly what I meant by you came here to be offended. You got exactly what you wanted.

Sure there are med student and doctors with crappy attitudes and disrespect for nurses. I'm sure you would agree that there are many nurses with the same crappy attitude and disrespect for doctors. Every single medical student and resident has experienced this.

However, as numerous posters above have said, the majority of physicians and med students have respect for what nurses do and realize the essential role of nurses in the patient care. What they disagree on is the encroachment of NPs into what is traditionally a MD/DO role. How do you feel about clinics hiring nursing assistants instead of RNs because they cost less? How about LPNs? Should they be doing the same thing as RNs? That is what this whole thread is about. If you don't believe in NPs acting as PCPs, then you posted in the wrong thread.

 

[Fantasy Sports]

. I'm a very direct person and I'm not good at "nice-nasty".
Sorry. moving on....this is crazy.

Yeah, we can tell based on many of your quotes that your "nice-nasty" is anything but nice...

 

[DRknow-it-all]

YOU do not know me. YOU do not know my accomplishments. YOU do not know how hard I have worked to get to where I am. Doctors are NOT the only people who work long and hard to reach a goal. YOU have NO right to insult me. YOU are pathetic.

😀 OH OH OH! Smiley your so fiesty. It so much fun to sit back and wach you get hot headed. If you are 1/2 this fiesty in bed you would be a blast!! 😛

I wish you worked at my hospital, you need to be tamed. Bad nurse! Bad, bad, bad (slap on butt)!

If you were at my hospital I would make sure that you wear a tight white skirt, top, and a nursing cap. This would remind you of your true purpose in health care.

By the way shouldnt you be doing you highly educated (equal to MD) work of wiping butt, taking vital signs, giving medications, and doing whatever the MD/DO tells you to do.

 

[MD'05]

Just give me my own secret code to the Diebold, the right to take a break when somone asks me to do something, the ability to call in the morining before im supposed to show up, all the pot luck i can eat in the breakroom my advanced MD and mabey we can call it even.

Amen to that. And the gift to be a perfect beotche on command.

 

[MD'05]

And I wonder how many people here had another career in the medical field before attending medical school. I was an EMT for several years.

Really? I first developed my disdain for nurses working several menial jobs in the hospital. That disdain was later reinforced while in medical school. Granted, there are a few nurses that are pleasant and hard working, but the majority I encounter are angry, unfulfilled, hateful, screaming, backstabbing, and gluttonous individuals. The "caring healthcare provider", right. 🙄

 

[Ross434]

You guys realize - just because nurses will be able to get a DNP doesnt mean they will. Not every nurse out there wants to become an advanced practitioner and spend 4 more years in school. There's not going to be a massive shift in nurses going back to school simply because they can get a doctoral level degree. Its just going to be more education, different title for the ones who do, and they'll likely have nearly the same responsibilities. Theres no reason for a huge huff. Everyone has clinical doctorates these days - pharmacists, dentists, optometrists, physical therapists - and these people work along side you, yet, they dont threaten your masculinity and "prestige". Nurses arent going to be taking over your practice and taking your responsibility, so they're not threatening your job either.