Does anyone else feel like they aren't learning anything?

[The new guy]

I am a MS1 at a supposedly "top 20" school and I feel like the quality of education frankly sucks. The exams are all multiple choice and require only the most superficial level of understanding. Except when they test things that were never covered in class or on any lecture slides...which happens quite often. I just don't really feel like im getting what I expected. I thought I would be working much harder and learning much more. Instead feel like I'm in a dumbed down undergrad program with crappy professors. Really pissed that this is costing me $60k a year.

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[Smokemont]

you might as well get used to it...

 

[The new guy]

you might as well get used to it...

Is this normal or is it just my school? That's my concern

 

[MedicalBeast]

thanks for sharing

 

[The new guy]

thanks for sharing

If you didn't notice, the title of the thread has a question mark...really interested to hear other perspectives on this...

 

[xffan624]

I am a MS1 at a supposedly "top 20" school and I feel like the quality of education frankly sucks. The exams are all multiple choice and require only the most superficial level of understanding. Except when they test things that were never covered in class or on any lecture slides...which happens quite often. I just don't really feel like im getting what I expected. I thought I would be working much harder and learning much more. Instead feel like I'm in a dumbed down undergrad program with crappy professors. Really pissed that this is costing me $60k a year.

Dude, what's the problem? They teach, you memorize, they test via multiple choice exams. It ain't Mozart, it's medical school. You're not paying for the cost of masterpiece lectures that blow your mind. It's an opportunity cost to be a high paying doctor. The demand is high. They can charge whatever they want within reason (ie whatever everyone else is charging).

 

[The new guy]

Dude, what's the problem? They teach, you memorize, they test via multiple choice exams. It ain't Mozart, it's medical school. You're not paying for the cost of masterpiece lectures that blow your mind. It's an opportunity cost to be a high paying doctor. The demand is high. They can charge whatever they want within reason (ie whatever everyone else is charging).

My problem is that I want to learn medicine. I don't want to be overwhelmed when step 1 and shelf exams roll around, I'd like to get a handle on the material before then. And most importantly I don't want to be clueless when I have actual patients to take care of.

 

[Mgod]

I am a MS1 at a supposedly "top 20" school and I feel like the quality of education frankly sucks. The exams are all multiple choice and require only the most superficial level of understanding. Except when they test things that were never covered in class or on any lecture slides...which happens quite often. I just don't really feel like im getting what I expected. I thought I would be working much harder and learning much more. Instead feel like I'm in a dumbed down undergrad program with crappy professors. Really pissed that this is costing me $60k a year.

This sounds like a good problem to have.
Use your extra time to study for the USMLEs (you indicated preparation concern in above post).

 

[xffan624]

My problem is that I want to learn medicine. I don't want to be overwhelmed when step 1 and shelf exams roll around, I'd like to get a handle on the material before then. And most importantly I don't want to be clueless when I have actual patients to take care of.

It's MS1. It sounds like you have a handle on the material they have taught so far. You're not attending clown college, you're attending an LCME accredited MD school. Trust in your program and supplement your material as needed from other sources (internet, board review materials).

 

[Meh.meh]

My problem is that I want to learn medicine. I don't want to be overwhelmed when step 1 and shelf exams roll around, I'd like to get a handle on the material before then. And most importantly I don't want to be clueless when I have actual patients to take care of.

Try taking a look at some outside resources. It will give you perspective on how much you're learning. Review books/pre-test questions might be a good way to go.

If you're taking physiology, take a look at guyton and hall. If you feel like you understand that, you're probably doing fine. Or take a look at costanza, which is a little simplified, but effective.

If you're taking anatomy, you could look at rohen's flashcards or netters

For biochemistry, take a look at golijan's review book.

etc. etc.

Out of curiosity, what was your undergraduate major?

 

[The new guy]

It's MS1. It sounds like you have a handle on the material they have taught so far. You're not attending clown college, you're attending an LCME accredited MD school. Trust in your program and supplement your material as needed from other sources (internet, board review materials).

I guess that's what I'm annoyed about. Shouldn't the school be providing this? Why do I need to supplement with internet when I am paying a crapload of money for them to supposedly teach me how to be a doctor. Seriously feel like 50% of my knowledge so far has come from Wikipedia

 

[ChEMD]

I am a MS1 at a supposedly "top 20" school and I feel like the quality of education frankly sucks. The exams are all multiple choice and require only the most superficial level of understanding. Except when they test things that were never covered in class or on any lecture slides...which happens quite often. I just don't really feel like im getting what I expected. I thought I would be working much harder and learning much more. Instead feel like I'm in a dumbed down undergrad program with crappy professors. Really pissed that this is costing me $60k a year.

You have to ask yourself: what did you expect to learn in your first few months of medical school? Right now your test questions have to be pretty superficial. They can't integrate much material because you don't know anything yet! With regards to how hard you aren't working, that's on you. With this type of attitude, I'm guessing you're not acing every test, which means you could definitely be working harder, but you choose not to.

I will tell you that the feeling that you're not learning anything (or rather, not anything "Important") is common, especially at the beginning of school. But everything builds on each other, so eventually the feeling of not learning anything goes away, but it eventually turns into feeling like you're not remembering anything (also a normal feeling).

 

[The new guy]

Try taking a look at some outside resources. It will give you perspective on how much you're learning. Review books/pre-test questions might be a good way to go.

If you're taking physiology, take a look at guyton and hall. If you feel like you understand that, you're probably doing fine. Or take a look at costanza, which is a little simplified, but effective.

If you're taking anatomy, you could look at rohen's flashcards or netters

For biochemistry, take a look at golijan's review book.

etc. etc.

Out of curiosity, what was your undergraduate major?

I was a fine arts major in college...then went back after graduating and did a post bacc.

Thanks for these recommendations, I appreciate it

 

[The new guy]

You have to ask yourself: what did you expect to learn in your first few months of medical school? Right now your test questions have to be pretty superficial. They can't integrate much material because you don't know anything yet! With regards to how hard you aren't working, that's on you. With this type of attitude, I'm guessing you're not acing every test, which means you could definitely be working harder, but you choose not to.

I will tell you that the feeling that you're not learning anything (or rather, not anything "Important") is common, especially at the beginning of school. But everything builds on each other, so eventually the feeling of not learning anything goes away, but it eventually turns into feeling like you're not remembering anything (also a normal feeling).

Actually I am doing really well, averaging in the 90s. I've aced quite a few tests. I'm not bragging though,because it feel like I don't know that much. The tests are multiple choice and i do well by process of elimination most of the time

 

[MedicalBeast]

in your free time, you can:

shadow doctors in specialties you may be interested in.
volunteer at a free clinic (you get to see patients and work on your clinical skills/note writing skills)
get involved in research
go to the gym
get a girlfriend/boyfriend

lots of options

 

[ChEMD]

Actually I am doing really well, averaging in the 90s. I've aced quite a few tests. I'm not bragging though,because it feel like I don't know that much. The tests are multiple choice and i do well by process of elimination most of the time

So what is your complaint exactly? Do you want it to be harder?

 

[The new guy]

So what is your complaint exactly? Do you want it to be harder?

I want to actually learn stuff. I don't feel like we are being taught the material in a way that sticks. I don't feel like we're learning the important stuff. Example, in gross anatomy we don't learn anything clinical. I think that's just messed up.

 

[Meh.meh]

I was a fine arts major in college...then went back after graduating and did a post bacc.

Thanks for these recommendations, I appreciate it

Follow up question: what classes are you in?

The post-bacc is probably a big part of it, if I had to guess. My major was heavy on molecular biology, and those sections of medical school were always a lot easier. For the most part, I covered them in greater depth in undergrad, because we had much more time.

When you start leaving the classes your post-bacc covered I'd guess it will get more difficult for you. Or, maybe it's just you 🙂

 

[MedWonk]

I am a MS1 at a supposedly "top 20" school and I feel like the quality of education frankly sucks. The exams are all multiple choice and require only the most superficial level of understanding. Except when they test things that were never covered in class or on any lecture slides...which happens quite often. I just don't really feel like im getting what I expected. I thought I would be working much harder and learning much more. Instead feel like I'm in a dumbed down undergrad program with crappy professors. Really pissed that this is costing me $60k a year.

I don't think we're ever tested on stuff we haven't learned. They ask a mix of questions that are straight up right from the lecture slides, and then they'll give us clinical vignette type questions that ties in a bunch of concepts together. But I don't think I've ever gotten a question where I was like "We covered this?!" If I don't get a question it's because I simply forgot or I didn't understand the concept as well as I thought. I will say that they will often gloss over topics in lecture that they end up testing on, so I never trust the lecturer when it comes to what will be tested. The basic answer is that everything is fair game and I need to know everything. I learned that the hard way on my first set of exams.

My problem is that I want to learn medicine. I don't want to be overwhelmed when step 1 and shelf exams roll around, I'd like to get a handle on the material before then. And most importantly I don't want to be clueless when I have actual patients to take care of.

Easy there, Doogie. We'll get there soon enough. Stuff we learn now will come back to haunt us later. Some of it we may never see again, but there's plenty that we will. Let the process play out. Besides, it's temporary. We won't be med students forever, and then we won't be residents forever. We'll get there.

 

[Meh.meh]

I want to actually learn stuff. I don't feel like we are being taught the material in a way that sticks. I don't feel like we're learning the important stuff. Example, in gross anatomy we don't learn anything clinical. I think that's just messed up.

Our anatomy had a ton of clinical correlations, but it lasted most of the first year. Honestly, you'll get a lot of the vital anatomy again in the following years, usually in imaging (which is how you'll probably see it the rest of your life).

 

[The new guy]

Follow up question: what classes are you in?

The post-bacc is probably a big part of it, if I had to guess. My major was heavy on molecular biology, and those sections of medical school were always a lot easier. For the most part, I covered them in greater depth in undergrad, because we had much more time.

When you start leaving the classes your post-bacc covered I'd guess it will get more difficult for you. Or, maybe it's just you 🙂

I don't really understand your comment. I do have a weak science background,yet I'm finding med school (including biochem) to be incredibly easy. I don't think it's just me, class averages are in the high 80s. I don't feel like we are being taught at a high enough level. It's all memorization of random facts, which is the worst way to learn because you'll never remember it a month from now.

 

[circulus vitios]

My experience is that most of the lectures are ****ty. The material isn't difficult to understand, it just requires a good memory or a lot of work to make up for a memory deficit. Some of the material is interesting and some of it is boring as hell. I feel like I'm learning stuff, it's just that it's disjointed because none of the dozen or whatever lecturers I've had have made any attempt at unifying the information -- although I expect for the sycophantic gunners to bitch at me and tell me that it's my job to tie it together.

 

[ChEMD]

I want to actually learn stuff. I don't feel like we are being taught the material in a way that sticks. I don't feel like we're learning the important stuff. Example, in gross anatomy we don't learn anything clinical. I think that's just messed up.

It's not your job to decide what's important and what's not. In a traditional curriculum, you first learn about the normal, healthy everything. There's nothing clinical about that. Yeah, most schools throw in some clinical correlations (which are often times very rare conditions in the first place) to appease students such as yourself, but you can't really learn things that are clinical until you first learn about how everything works when nothing's wrong. Trust the curriculum. There have been thousands of students before you and I'm pretty sure they all didn't become terrible doctors that bring harm to their patients. Just be patient, and as long as you learn what they tell you to learn, you'll be fine.

 

[Meh.meh]

I don't really understand your comment. I do have a weak science background,yet I'm finding med school (including biochem) to be incredibly easy. I don't think it's just me, class averages are in the high 80s. I don't feel like we are being taught at a high enough level. It's all memorization of random facts, which is the worst way to learn because you'll never remember it a month from now.

My apologies, I'm not really putting much into my writing. It's probably not terribly clear.

Last comment in different words: If you took a post-bacc, I'm guessing you've had biochemistry and anatomy before. That will make things easier. My own major was heavy in molecular biology. This made molecular biology based subjects very easy for me.

Biochemistry and anatomy are not weighted as heavily as other subjects in medical school. They are relatively "low-yield" by comparison to physiology, pharmacology, and pathology. It's not that they aren't important, it's just that they're less emphasized.

Your school may stick to the essentials, which is a reflection of the lower weight in these subjects. Rejoice, because only a few specialties are heavily based in biochemistry: unless you end up in one of those, there wouldn't have been much point to learning more anyway. If you do end up in one of those specialties, you'll re-learn the necessary material in greater depth.

New comment:

If you find that you're being tested on "random facts," and are unhappy because you "don't understand" material, change the way you're learning. You may get lower grades, but you'll retain the information better. That's obviously more important to you. If it isn't, then I don't understand your complaint.

 

[The new guy]

My apologies, I'm not really putting much into my writing. It's probably not terribly clear.

Last comment in different words: If you took a post-bacc, I'm guessing you've had biochemistry and anatomy before. That will make things easier. My own major was heavy in molecular biology. This made molecular biology based subjects very easy for me.

Biochemistry and anatomy are not weighted as heavily as other subjects in medical school. They are relatively "low-yield" by comparison to physiology, pharmacology, and pathology. It's not that they aren't important, it's just that they're less emphasized.

Your school may stick to the essentials, which is a reflection of the lower weight in these subjects. Rejoice, because only a few specialties are heavily based in biochemistry: unless you end up in one of those, there wouldn't have been much point to learning more anyway. If you do end up in one of those specialties, you'll re-learn the necessary material in greater depth.

New comment:

If you find that you're being tested on "random facts," and are unhappy because you "don't understand" material, change the way you're learning. You may get lower grades, but you'll retain the information better. That's obviously more important to you. If it isn't, then I don't understand your complaint.

No, my post bacc only included bare bones stuff like gen chem. I've never taken biochem or anatomy, etc.

I do understand the material at the level it's being taught to us. But I have serious doubts about how it's being taught. I feel there should be more higher order thinking involved rather than just regurgitation of meaningless facts and names. I guess that's the root of my complaint. I am worried this will come back to bite us when boards roll around. We're not being taught how to think.

 

[W19]

I don't really understand your comment. I do have a weak science background,yet I'm finding med school (including biochem) to be incredibly easy. I don't think it's just me, class averages are in the high 80s. I don't feel like we are being taught at a high enough level. It's all memorization of random facts, which is the worst way to learn because you'll never remember it a month from now.

It's med school, so most of these students are above average students. I am attending a low tier school and our overall class average in biochem was in the low 80s... I don't know about your school, but we are learning a lot clinically related stuff in anatomy, which make that class challenging. On our first exam, we had few x-rays, MRI and a CT SCAN imaging that were freaking difficult to interpret..

 

[Meh.meh]

No, my post bacc only included bare bones stuff like gen chem. I've never taken biochem or anatomy, etc.

I do understand the material at the level it's being taught to us. But I have serious doubts about how it's being taught. I feel there should be more higher order thinking involved rather than just regurgitation of meaningless facts and names. I guess that's the root of my complaint. I am worried this will come back to bite us when boards roll around. We're not being taught how to think.

Ah. This is a pretty common medical student complaint. There are a couple of things you should know:

1. If you've only taken biochemistry and anatomy, understand these are highly memorization intensive subjects. The "random" factors you're expected to know tend to be more important than you realize. They'll come up again in some form. A protein may be important in a rare metabolic disease, or it may be important for the action of a drug.

2. You are learning the language of medicine. You can't expect to write a novel when you don't know the alphabet.

3. What you learn the first two years is taught repeatedly, with layers of concepts. Much of 2nd year relies on first, at least where I go to school.

4. look for patterns in the "random" information. There are usually two ways to learn things in medical school: understand relationships, or memorize details. The first has proven successful for me long term. It's harder at first, but becomes easier as the material accumulates.

5. As was mentioned above, trust in the curriculum. It's developed by people who know a hell of a lot more than either of us.

 

[Jabbed]

Strongly disagree with the whole "clinical correlations have no place in M1" idea. I firmly maintain that you really can't understand how something works until you can understand how it is broken. You don't know hemodynamics until you've understood heart failure. You don't understand Na/K pumps until you understand the mechanism of action of digoxin. The best medical books that I've read have revolved around the pathophysiology of disease as opposed to clearly delineating physiology from pathology.

That said, I think most medical school curricula suck in one way or another. Unfortunately there's not a whole lot of change that you're likely to see while you are a student, but I would definitely encourage you to pursue outside resources. If you're fortunate enough to have a true P/F curriculum, I would seriously gathering your own source material and learning in parallel with the curriculum.

 

[Mass Effect]

It's been my experience that most people who think med school is easy and that they're not learning anything new are memorizing facts and missing most of the major concepts they should be learning. It's on you to learn the material, not just to regurgitate it, but to actually KNOW it and why it's important. Your school isn't going to spoon feed you. They give you the concepts you need to know. You need to learn it.

 

[The new guy]

It's been my experience that most people who think med school is easy and that they're not learning anything new are memorizing facts and missing most of the major concepts they should be learning. It's on you to learn the material, not just to regurgitate it, but to actually KNOW it and why it's important. Your school isn't going to spoon feed you. They give you the concepts you need to know. You need to learn it.

Then why don't they test us on the concepts in order to reinforce the important stuff? This is what baffles me. You would think the tests would emphasize the important points

 

[Mass Effect]

Then why don't they test us on the concepts in order to reinforce the important stuff? This is what baffles me. You would think the tests would emphasize the important points

I don't know how your school tests, but if all you're doing is regurgitating information, then you're doing it wrong. You need to be pro-active here. Not everything will be spoon-fed to you.

 

[ChEMD]

Then why don't they test us on the concepts in order to reinforce the important stuff? This is what baffles me. You would think the tests would emphasize the important points

There are very few concepts in biochemistry and anatomy. Much of it is memorization of facts. That's just how it is.

 

[Jabbed]

Then why don't they test us on the concepts in order to reinforce the important stuff? This is what baffles me. You would think the tests would emphasize the important points

Because testing concepts doesn't stratify scores as well as testing minutia.

It doesn't have to make sense.

 

[The new guy]

There are very few concepts in biochemistry and anatomy. Much of it is memorization of facts. That's just how it is.

Well I took a look at BRS anatomy, which supposedly is a good representation of what you see on the boards... We are not learning ANY of this stuff.

 

[ChEMD]

Well I took a look at BRS anatomy, which supposedly is a good representation of what you see on the boards... We are not learning ANY of this stuff.

For example?

 

[Jabbed]

It's med school, so most of these students are above average students. I am attending a low tier school and our overall class average in biochem was in the low 80s... I don't know about your school, but we are learning a lot clinically related stuff in anatomy, which make that class challenging. On our first exam, we had few x-rays, MRI and a CT SCAN images that were freaking difficult to interpret..

Where do you go (if you don't mind my asking)? Never heard of radiology being incorporated into preclinical coursework like that.

 

[The new guy]

For example?

Like all of the clinical questions. We haven't been taught any of that. Most of BRS is clinically focused.

 

[Meh.meh]

Where do you go (if you don't mind my asking)? Never heard of radiology being incorporated into preclinical coursework like that.

It's been in most of our pre-clinical classes in some way or another here too. Not usually worth much, and usually very basic questions (e.g. what dermatome would display a deficit if I impinged the nerve labeled with an arrow in the diagram).

 

[ChEMD]

Like all of the clinical questions. We haven't been taught any of that. Most of BRS is clinically focused.

Once again, if you're in a traditional curriculum, you will likely learn the clinical stuff when you actually go over the pathology of those systems.

 

[Promethean]

My problem is that I want to learn medicine. I don't want to be overwhelmed when step 1 and shelf exams roll around, I'd like to get a handle on the material before then. And most importantly I don't want to be clueless when I have actual patients to take care of.

If you don't feel challenged by the school, challenge yourself. Buy your UWorld subscription right away and start doing questions.

Teach yourself. Pull out the texts and read them. Run study groups. You don't need lectures or powerpoints or exams to be made for you. You can learn as much as you dare.

 

[W19]

Where do you go (if you don't mind my asking)? Never heard of radiology being incorporated into preclinical coursework like that.

Can't reveal that on a public forum, but it a bottom 10 US allo med school... You did not have images of bone fractures in your musculoskeletal exam in Anatomy where they ask you nerves/blood vessels that will be affected (at least 5 in a 60 questions exam)... We had one MRI and one CT scan in which they asked us what was missing on them.. Needless to say that the class average was a 75--lowest so far.

The professor only looked at X-ray with us during dissection... He did not look at MRI an CT scan.

 

[The new guy]

Can't reveal that on a public forum, but it a bottom 10 US allo med school... You did not have images of bone fractures in your musculoskeletal exam in Anatomy where they ask you nerves/blood vessels that will be affected (at least 5 in a 60 questions exam)... We had one MRI and one CT scan in which they asked us what was missing on them.. Needless to say that the class average was a 75--lowest so far.

I am starting to think that "bottom tier" schools put more effort into preparing students for board exams

 

[el_duderino]

We have a lot of clinical correlations both in lecture and anatomy so far in first year. I find the OP's story difficult to believe.

I can't imagine OP is top in his class, so maybe he could amuse himself by studying harder.

 

[Jabbed]

I am starting to think that "bottom tier" schools put more effort into preparing students for board exams

They do. That's the only way for them to build rep.

Top tiers can maintain that whatever they're doing is right because that's what they've always been doing.

 

[MedWonk]

It's med school, so most of these students are above average students. I am attending a low tier school and our overall class average in biochem was in the low 80s... I don't know about your school, but we are learning a lot clinically related stuff in anatomy, which make that class challenging. On our first exam, we had few x-rays, MRI and a CT SCAN images that were freaking difficult to interpret..

We have imaging integrated with our anatomy course, but the images are usually easy to interpret. Usually simple things like "where's the infiltrate?", differentiating between hypoinflated lungs and fluid-filled lungs, looking at regurgitation across the mitral valve or across a septal defect, and identifying a pneumothorax. Mind you, the images they give us are usually very clear. I don't think they've given us anything vague or difficult to see at this point.

 

[Meh.meh]

If you don't feel challenged by the school, challenge yourself. Buy your UWorld subscription right away and start doing questions.

Teach yourself. Pull out the texts and read them. Run study groups. You don't need lectures or powerpoints or exams to be made for you. You can learn as much as you dare.

I have no strong feelings about anything except the bolded. That would be an incredible waste of money.

UWorld is designed for testing integrated concepts from throughout the first two years. Even then, it is a challenge. You might be able to learn from the explanations, but if you do that, you rob yourself of the opportunity to use those questions in board review.

Don't waste time doing this.

 

[W19]

I am starting to think that "bottom tier" schools put more effort into preparing students for board exams

I am not sure because we are using the same books other med school use, but often 50%+ questions in our exams are clinical vignette. Therefore, if you don't practice some of these questions, you are basically fvcked!

 

[W19]

We have imaging integrated with our anatomy course, but the images are usually easy to interpret. Usually simple things like "where's the infiltrate?", differentiating between hypoinflated lungs and fluid-filled lungs, looking at regurgitation across the mitral valve or across a septal defect, and identifying a pneumothorax. Mind you, the images they give us are usually very clear. I don't think they've given us anything vague or difficult to see at this point.

Maybe I am not good at imaging, but the class average was 75 in our first exam (musculoskeletal)--the lowest so far....

 

[Pose]

I also had radiology incorporated into anatomy, with a lecture by the radiology department once a week or so, and ultrasound labs. Not sure it really helped me learn anatomy, but at least it made me feel like I was doing medicine-y stuff.

 

[operaman]

Fellow non-trad arts major here. No science background either.

I don't think the tier of school matters -- the 'problem' is that you are probably a highly intelligent person and accustomed to learning things like an artist. In comparison, M1/M2 are pretty much a cakewalk. I remember a conducting final where we had to prepare an opera act (about an hr., 150-200 pages of music) and conduct all of it from memory ( you conducted the prof who was playing the whole score on the piano and poorly singing all the lines) during which time the professor would stop randomly and ask detailed questions about that moment in the score (who's playing? who's singing? what word are they singing? what does it mean? What's happening on stage? What's about to happen? dynamic markings? meter? which important cues are coming? etc). Compared to that, memorizing some PPT slides for biochem is nothing! I suspect you had similar experiences in your undergrad as well.

The other issue is that you're just at the beginning -- the simple scales for instruments, simple vocalises for singers, theatre games for actors. Just like you did with your art, focus on mastering the fundamentals and allow things to build at their natural pace. Supplement as needed with outside materials. Talk with your faculty and ask when things you see in BRS will be covered in your curriculum. I know ours skipped around a good bit and it looked like we weren't covering something but then we'd get to it later in the year. Either way, the material will build on itself and you'll get to where you need to be. Maybe talk to some smarter upperclassmen to see how they felt and if it might get better/tougher going forward.

(I realize I may just be responding to a troll post, but thought I'd give him the benefit of the doubt)