Does AOA matter for IM Fellowships?

[letsgetstarted1234]

Wondering how important AOA is for Fellowship? My school only gives it out after match so it doesn't factor into residency.

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[AlteredScale]

Wondering how important AOA is for Fellowship? My school only gives it out after match so it doesn't factor into residency.

Depends on the fellowship and the degree/level of prestige you want. Cards/GI at cedars/Mt sinai/MGH/UCSF? You better believe most of those applicants will have AOA and those that don't have something else that stands out in their applicant above the rest.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

Depends on the fellowship and the degree/level of prestige you want. Cards/GI at cedars/Mt sinai/MGH/UCSF? You better believe most of those applicants will have AOA and those that don't have something else that stands out in their applicant above the rest.

Yes but is that because they care about AOA or because the types of applicants that match those programs also happen to be the type of students to get AOA?

 

[AlteredScale]

Yes but is that because they care about AOA or because the types of applicants that match those programs also happen to be the type of students to get AOA?

I would say because it is the norm that having an applicant with AOA that it is out of the ordinary to have na applicant who doesn't have it and it stands out.

 

[Deecee2DO]

I would say because it is the norm that having an applicant with AOA that it is out of the ordinary to have na applicant who doesn't have it and it stands out.

What if youre at a DO school and your school doesnt do AOA? How would a DO match at the best programs for fellowship if they didnt even have the option to get AOA

 

[AlteredScale]

What if youre at a DO school and your school doesnt do AOA? How would a DO match at the best programs for fellowship if they didnt even have the option to get AOA

At this time, DO medical students cannot get into AOA. SSP is the closest to AOA from the DO side.

There's really nothing that DO's can do to "make up" for this tbh. You can be designated AOA as a resident whether MD or DO but I do not know the logistics of this. Perhaps this could help.

 

[7331poas]

Depends on the fellowship and the degree/level of prestige you want. Cards/GI at cedars/Mt sinai/MGH/UCSF? You better believe most of those applicants will have AOA and those that don't have something else that stands out in their applicant above the rest.

One of those institutions is not like the others.

 

[Lawpy]

One of those institutions is not like the others.

Ouch

 

[Lawpy]

You don't

Also ouch and i don’t think that’s true. DOs can match into upper mid IM programs and if they excel in residency and make solid connections, they can match into great fellowships in elite places

 

[Deecee2DO]

You don't

I have interviews at several top tiers and many upper mid tiers for IM as a DO and I still wouldnt be able to match top tier fellowship without AOA?

 

[Deecee2DO]

Also ouch and i don’t think that’s true. DOs can match into upper mid IM programs and if they excel in residency and make solid connections, they can match into great fellowships in elite places

Thank God you posted this i just was so discouraged for a hot second lol

 

[Deecee2DO]

At this time, DO medical students cannot get into AOA. SSP is the closest to AOA from the DO side.

There's really nothing that DO's can do to "make up" for this tbh. You can be designated AOA as a resident whether MD or DO but I do not know the logistics of this. Perhaps this could help.

Thanks for the insight AlteredScale!

 

[GoSpursGo]

For these kinds of “does x matter for y specialty,” the answer is basically always “yes.” But the real question is “how much?”

In this case it will neither be a dealbreaker if you don’t have it nor a kingmaker if you do. It’s just one data point in your app.

 

[DameJulie]

At this time, DO medical students cannot get into AOA. SSP is the closest to AOA from the DO side.

There's really nothing that DO's can do to "make up" for this tbh. You can be designated AOA as a resident whether MD or DO but I do not know the logistics of this. Perhaps this could help.

Anyone knows how to to get inducted into AOA as DO resident? Good preceptor eval? community service? step 3 score?

 

[Deecee2DO]

Anyone knows how to to get inducted into AOA as DO resident? Good preceptor eval? community service? step 3 score?

Id imagine just based on your med school track record (clinical grades and Steps).

 

[Lawpy]

Anyone knows how to to get inducted into AOA as DO resident? Good preceptor eval? community service? step 3 score?

Id imagine just based on your med school track record (clinical grades and Steps).

Idk i think it varies by program but haven’t really known of AOA in residency being a thing for fellowships tbh. It’s largely driven by resident performance and program quality. Being chief resident is probably much more important

 

[AlteredScale]

Idk i think it varies by program but haven’t really known of AOA in residency being a thing for fellowships tbh. It’s largely driven by resident performance and program quality. Being chief resident is probably much more important

Yep it's def a thing that is not seen much in residency but who knows what happens in the way of filtering via NRMP. I bet it's probably straight AOA designation.

Anyone knows how to to get inducted into AOA as DO resident? Good preceptor eval? community service? step 3 score?

The program will nominate people. See here

 

[ortnakas]

Good news: DOs get into plenty of fellowships. Relax everybody.

Bad news: the programs that care a lot about AOA probably also are the ones who will care about you being a DO instead of an MD in the first place.

 

[Lawpy]

Good news: DOs get into plenty of fellowships. Relax everybody.

Bad news: the programs that care a lot about AOA probably also are the ones who will care about you being a DO instead of an MD in the first place.

I thought the issue is matching into the best fellowships given OP and few others interests for bringing AOA into the discussion. I don’t think matching into any fellowships is an issue, as there are many DOs from many IM programs that match into cards/GI just fine

 

[NotAProgDirector]

Survey is from 2016 so somewhat dated:

Full data report is here: https://www.nrmp.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/08/2016-PD-Survey-Report-SMS.pdf

 

[Lawpy]

Survey is from 2016 so somewhat dated:

View attachment 347294

Full data report is here: https://www.nrmp.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/08/2016-PD-Survey-Report-SMS.pdf

Why would Step 1 or Step 2 have any bearing on fellowship applications?

 

[7331poas]

Survey is from 2016 so somewhat dated:

Full data report is here: https://www.nrmp.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/08/2016-PD-Survey-Report-SMS.pdf

These surveys are kind of useless though. What am I supposed to do with the knowledge that 50% of programs care about AOA to an extent?

 

[GoSpursGo]

Why would Step 1 or Step 2 have any bearing on fellowship applications?

Still basically the only objective data on applicants.

Again, everything is just one datapoint. A lot is going to come down to squishy factors like “feel” and “impressiveness of research.”

 

[Lawpy]

Still basically the only objective data on applicants.

Again, everything is just one datapoint. A lot is going to come down to squishy factors like “feel” and “impressiveness of research.”

I thought Step 3 and ITE would play the primary (tbh i initially thought only) objective role for fellowships

 

[GoSpursGo]

I thought Step 3 and ITE would play the primary (tbh i initially thought only) objective role for fellowships

Step 3 is much easier, particularly for IM residents.

Can’t speak to ITEs. They were totally irrelevant for peds fellowships, whereas I know they’re super important for surgery. Not sure about IM

 

[Deecee2DO]

Do you want a prestigious brand name attached to your fellowship? If not then any program will give you equivalent training (and $$ earning potential). I know several IMG (non "top 4" caribbean) who did GI/Cards/PCCM in recent years at so-called "bumhole" programs and had no problem getting great gigs as attendings. Since DO>IMG, and with your results you'll likely be a good candidate for fellowship, but the where is never guaranteed.

Yeah I want prestigous brand name but thanks thats good to know!

 

[NotAProgDirector]

IM programs not allowed to release ITE scores, hence they (should) play no role in IM fellowship selection.

 

[crimsonly]

From my understanding, yes AOA will matter but what you do during residency also matters (research, taking a chief year, meded involvement)