Does it matter what school you graduated from?

[americanpierg]

No ranking at Harvard Dental school, everyone is at the same level.

They actually do provide a ranking for the top few, and then the rest are grouped together in larger percentages, ie 50%, 75%.

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[sajjy]

They actually do provide a ranking for the top few, and then the rest are grouped together in larger percentages, ie 50%, 75%.

I think that is at UPenn, but Harvard Dental has no ranking AT ALL.

 

[Eddie17]

So, I'm the OP...never thought this thread will be up here for so long and get so many replies, but damn was I wrong...yes, everyone is biased, but that is a shame, because the answer is really clear cut...ex. its like trying to say that getting into dental school is harder than getting into medical school...I mean, I'm a pre-dental student and I would never ever be stupid enough to try to convince a pre-medical student that its harder to get into d-school cause I KNOW AND ADMIT IT ISN'T...people really need to just admit when they're wrong and face the facts...'americanpierg' is correct...'Navy DDS 2010', please stop trying, you really need to stop, reread, and ponder about everything americanpierg is saying...I can't believe you're a dental student not understanding americanpierg's points...I truely wish you could come to UC Berkeley (yes very prestigious) and take the classes I took just so they can eat you alive with the competition you must try to endure...I guarantee you would have quickly changed career paths because you would never have been able to keep up...and this is a public university, no grade inflation, rather "UC Berkeley has a reputation for rigorous grading policies in some science and engineering classes. Departmental guidelines state that no more than 17% of the students in any given class may be awarded A grades, and that the class GPA should be in the range of 2.7 to 2.9 out of a maximum of 4.0 grade points." Every damn science class of mine was like this...I'm not gonna sit here and type about how great this school is because I'm sure everybody agrees...if not, go to wikipedia and read up about its achievements...why is it such a great school? Why do so many geniuses graduate from there? Why is it SO hard to do well at Berkeley? Because of the immense competition b/w some of the smartest students in the nation...just like americanpierg said, it pushes all students to think outside of the box on every test, study like they've never studied before, and it literally produces students so ready for graduate school that they would make you drop out if you went to such d-schools like Harvard...There are exceptions to everything, but we are talking about the norm...If all schools were the same, U.S. News and World Report would not come out with rankings every single year! Sleep on it NAVY, sleep on it.

P.S. I'm not trying to boast about the education I received relative to anyone elses, I'm just trying to show that it's probably harder to get the A at Berkeley than at the 'unheard of' colleges...and this doesn't mean you folks at 'unheard of' colleges can't do well at Berkeley, but you would have to try 10X harder to do well...that's the point, and d-schools know this for a fact.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._News_&_World_Report

 

[urghurgh]

Ok...so, this is not that "classic" thread, and no I don't have a below average GPA or a below average DAT, and I do not need a self-esteem boost from anyone (especially people I don't know)...but it's probably that my physics professor was harder and smarter than yours (Prof. Smoot), winning the Nobel prize in 2006 in physics and where his uncovering of ripples in space dating from the early universe was called "the discovery of the century, if not of all time," by Stephen Hawking. And no, I'm not saying there is a direct correlation b/w nobel prize winners and difficulty, but I started this thread because if it were true that dental programs really didn't care about what school you come from, it seems pointless to even ask it on the application. You might as well just put your GPA and DAT, and just leave out where you graduated from.

Pretentious UC kids... I'm kind of ashamed you're my peer.
The smart professors are always the easier professors because they know what's going on. It's only pretentious d**ks that make classes more difficult than that's suppose to be or write uncomprehendable tests. The school matters, period. Californian schools are elitist. Other states prefer students from their own state because they want to serve THEIR community. It will vary.

 

[sajjy]

So, I'm the OP...never thought this thread will be up here for so long and get so many replies, but damn was I wrong...yes, everyone is biased, but that is a shame, because the answer is really clear cut...ex. its like trying to say that getting into dental school is harder than getting into medical school...I mean, I'm a pre-dental student and I would never ever be stupid enough to try to convince a pre-medical student that its harder to get into d-school cause I KNOW AND ADMIT IT ISN'T...people really need to just admit when they're wrong and face the facts...'americanpierg' is correct...'Navy DDS 2010', please stop trying, you really need to stop, reread, and ponder about everything americanpierg is saying...I can't believe you're a dental student not understanding americanpierg's points...I truely wish you could come to UC Berkeley (yes very prestigious) and take the classes I took just so they can eat you alive with the competition you must try to endure...I guarantee you would have quickly changed career paths because you would never have been able to keep up...and this is a public university, no grade inflation, rather "UC Berkeley has a reputation for rigorous grading policies in some science and engineering classes. Departmental guidelines state that no more than 17% of the students in any given class may be awarded A grades, and that the class GPA should be in the range of 2.7 to 2.9 out of a maximum of 4.0 grade points." Every damn science class of mine was like this...I'm not gonna sit here and type about how great this school is because I'm sure everybody agrees...if not, go to wikipedia and read up about its achievements...why is it such a great school? Why do so many geniuses graduate from there? Why is it SO hard to do well at Berkeley? Because of the immense competition b/w some of the smartest students in the nation...just like americanpierg said, it pushes all students to think outside of the box on every test, study like they've never studied before, and it literally produces students so ready for graduate school that they would make you drop out if you went to such d-schools like Harvard...There are exceptions to everything, but we are talking about the norm...If all schools were the same, U.S. News and World Report would not come out with rankings every single year! Sleep on it NAVY, sleep on it.

P.S. I'm not trying to boast about the education I received relative to anyone elses, I'm just trying to show that it's probably harder to get the A at Berkeley than at the 'unheard of' colleges...and this doesn't mean you folks at 'unheard of' colleges can't do well at Berkeley, but you would have to try 10X harder to do well...that's the point, and d-schools know this for a fact.

A hardworking student will put in the same effort & timeand will try as hard as a hardworking student at a prestigious college. Isn't this true as well??

 

[americanpierg]

I think that is at UPenn, but Harvard Dental has no ranking AT ALL.

Then I stand corrected, I thought I read that somewhere on this forum some time ago.

I know most of the top schools have a Pass/Fail system (i guess your reward for getting into them), but then some have some sort of "honors" designation for doing exceptionally well, ie top 10% that the dean writes in your letter when you're matching.

 

[sajjy]

Then I stand corrected, I thought I read that somewhere on this forum some time ago.

I know most of the top schools have a Pass/Fail system (i guess your reward for getting into them), but then some have some sort of "honors" designation for doing exceptionally well, ie top 10% that the dean writes in your letter when you're matching.

Nope not at Harvard. It is a true P/F system without any ranking. And yes P/F is godsend.

 

[armorshell]

So what you're saying is that the quality of students in Dental School has nothing to do with entering statistics. The fact that Howard has one of the lowest 3 entering GPA and DAT statistic of all US dental schools and UPENN has some of the highest plays no role in this?

Did you even read what I quoted? I said ~50% of the credit load is not predicted by entering statistics in any meaningful way. 50% and "nothing to do with" are pretty different.

Let's take a vote.

Since many of us are enrolled at neither schools, and won't be as biased as with this GPA debate,

Is it harder to place in the top 5 of your class at Harvard Dental Shool or Howard Dental School.

Somehow I don't think the result will be surprising at all...

I appreciate what you're trying to do, but consensus on a pre-dental forum and truth are two very different things. You've still fallen short on providing any "proof" for your assertions, and you've managed to yet again ignore the 80% of my post you can't synthesize an answer to.

Ever consider a career in politics?

 

[Eddie17]

A hardworking student will put in the same effort & timeand will try as hard as a hardworking student at a prestigious college. Isn't this true as well??

I beg to differ...you never know how hard you can actually work until you're put up to the challenge...I thought I was working my butt off in high school, as hard as I could work...then I advance to a competitive school and realize that high school was a walk in the park, and never realized that I could actually work much harder when I actually needed to...analogy-> it's like someone experiencing a life threatening situation and reacting (maybe saving lives) in such a way he/she would have never imagined they would react, but realized their courage in the face of adversity...but if they were never put in that situation, how would they know? So, if one thinks they are 'hardworking' at some 'unheard of' college and then they move on to Harvard, I believe they would redefine 'hardworking' quite quickly.

 

[americanpierg]

A hardworking student will put in the same effort & timeand will try as hard as a hardworking student at a prestigious college. Isn't this true as well??

Yes, but the difference is not how smart that one individual is. The difference is how smart everyone else is. Most likely, the top 17% of people at Berkeley will be smarter than top 17% of a small college in the middle of nowhere. There might even be a couple people from that small college that are smarter than EVERYONE at Berkeley, but overall, the top 17% of students at berkeley will "smarter" than the top 17% of that small college.

You will have to put in more effort to break into the top 17% of Berkeley than you would at that small college. Sure it's not EVERY small college, but more than likely probably 99+% of them.

 

[armorshell]

So, I'm the OP...never thought this thread will be up here for so long and get so many replies, but damn was I wrong...yes, everyone is biased, but that is a shame, because the answer is really clear cut...

P.S. I'm not trying to boast about the education I received relative to anyone elses, I'm just trying to show that it's probably harder to get the A at Berkeley than at the 'unheard of' colleges...

Wait, I don't understand. Why did you "ask" if it mattered where you went to school if you already knew the answer was "clear cut?" I'm excited to hear your answer.

 

[NAVY DDS 2010]

'Navy DDS 2010', please stop trying, you really need to stop, reread, and ponder about everything americanpierg is saying...I can't believe you're a dental student not understanding americanpierg's points...

Are you illiterate as well? I specifically state I understand his point!!!!!!!!!!! I just don't agree. No, I won't sleep on it. Is Harvard or other Ivy League schools hard? Sure, at leaast that is what people say. I don't know because I never went and never wanted to attend. But who is anyone to say that a small college cannot be just as hard as the Ivy League? Now are all small colleges the same, no. But I can tell you that there ARE small colleges that require the students to know just as much, do as much work and crap on the students just as they do at the 'prestigious' ones. Sometimes, it is even worse because the professors suck, but require the same info be learned.

No matter what, americanpierg cannot say that someone at a small school doesn't deserve nor can handle a prestigious school or dental school as well or even better just because they went to the small school. I went to Podunk College (as well have other classmates) and have done well for myself (theirselves) and am (/are) ahead of plenty of classmates who went to 'prestigious schools'. Prestigious doesn't necessarily prove smarter. Try to prove me wrong on this!

 

[armorshell]

Nope not at Harvard. It is a true P/F system without any ranking. And yes P/F is godsend.

But in americanpiergs mindset, the only important factor is the people you're competing against. If you factor competition out of the equation, than the education you receive collapses as well. Therefore, from their point of view, Harvard is worse than Howard (Which ranks students).

QED

 

[americanpierg]

Did you even read what I quoted? I said ~50% of the credit load is not predicted by entering statistics in any meaningful way. 50% and "nothing to do with" are pretty different.

Show me proof of this 50/50 split. You have not shown any proof of your assertions in any meaningful way. Ever consider a career in politics?

 

[sajjy]

But in americanpiergs mindset, the only important factor is the people you're competing against. If you factor competition out of the equation, than the education you receive collapses as well. Therefore, from their point of view, Harvard is worse than Howard (Which ranks students).

QED

...WELL SAID ARMOR.....

I feel the key to success is to compete with ourselves rather than worrying how the person next to me or how the colleges across the road are doing.

 

[sajjy]

I beg to differ...you never know how hard you can actually work until you're put up to the challenge...I thought I was working my butt off in high school, as hard as I could work...then I advance to a competitive school and realize that high school was a walk in the park, and never realized that I could actually work much harder when I actually needed to...analogy-> it's like someone experiencing a life threatening situation and reacting (maybe saving lives) in such a way he/she would have never imagined they would react, but realized their courage in the face of adversity...but if they were never put in that situation, how would they know? So, if one thinks they are 'hardworking' at some 'unheard of' college and then they move on to Harvard, I believe they would redefine 'hardworking' quite quickly.

A hardworking student will work hard and will survive any in situation/environment.

 

[NAVY DDS 2010]

QED

 

[Eddie17]

Wait, I don't understand. Why did you "ask" if it mattered where you went to school if you already knew the answer was "clear cut?" I'm excited to hear your answer.

That post was specifically referring to the argument between NAVY DDS 2010 and americanpierg...my specific first question asked if d-schools cared, because some people on this forum stated they didn't...but two specific posts answered my question...the 20th post by stayinflossy as well as urghurgh's post at the end of the first page about UoP.

 

[americanpierg]

But in americanpiergs mindset, the only important factor is the people you're competing against. If you factor competition out of the equation, than the education you receive collapses as well. Therefore, from their point of view, Harvard is worse than Howard (Which ranks students).

QED

When you are ranked based upon your peers, or you are graded in relation to your peers, which is HOW YOU ARE GRADED IN MOST OF YOUR CLASSES, the people you are competing against is the most important factor. If I know more physics than 99% of the peope on the planet, but 100 Steven hawkings are in my class, and only 10 person can get a 4.0, will dental schools give a crap that I know SOOO much about physics if my grade was a 0.5 because the curve was working so badly against my favor?

I don't know how you ever got pass 2nd grade english.

 

[NAVY DDS 2010]

A hardworking student will work hard and will survive any situation/environment.

We have a WINNER!!!!!!!!

 

[americanpierg]

GUYS! This is enough.

What armorshell and navyDDS are trying to say is that we should all just go to community college. ALL colleges are equal, no matter the quality of students in there. THERE IS NO WAY TO MAKE AN ARGUEMENT THAT ONE IS BETTER THAN THE OTHER. THEYare both right, I am wrong. A community college is just as great as an IVY league and the grades should be weighed the same.

I have this friend, smartest guy i have ever met in the world, and he didn't have enough money for college. He got accepted to Harvard and Stanford, but he couldn't attend because he didnt have any scholarships. He went to CC with me at California State Community College and we both got a 4.0.

Our 4.0 at California State Community College is just as good as a 4.0 at Harvard University.

California State Community College = Harvard University

I don't care what any of you say.

That's all.

 

[armorshell]

Show me proof of this 50/50 split. You have not shown any proof of your assertions in any meaningful way. Ever consider a career in politics?

As of this quarter, I have taken 210 credits. 114 of those credits are in clinical and pre-clinical classes. I have 3 quarters left (30-32 credits per quarter), and the majority of those will be in clinical courses.

Feel free to confirm that via the school catalog:
http://dental.pacific.edu/Documents/microsites/acad_affairs/acrobat/Catalog2008_2010.pdf

Now I again await any proof your claims.

 

[NAVY DDS 2010]

...WELL SAID ARMOR.....

I feel the key to success is to compete with ourselves rather than worrying how the person next to me or how the colleges across the road are doing.

Definitely true sajjy. All I cared about in school is learning everything I could to to make life in grad school easier. I have the same attitude in d-school as well. I want to learn everything I can so I can be the most competent dentist I can be. If you take that attitude, the grades and ranking will take care of themselves no matter what school you attend!!!

 

[Eddie17]

A hardworking student will work hard and will survive any situation/environment.

It really depends on how you define 'survive'...does that mean do well enough to graduate or do well enough to get into Harvard like you...I don't think that if you work hard you could succeed in all fields...some people just have a knack for certain fields and not for other fields...and they usually realize when a field isn't for them when they try really HARD but are unable to do well enough to compete with others who just are better than them (I have such friends)...hardworking doesn't always parallel intelligence, or success in any field one chooses.

 

[armorshell]

When you are ranked based upon your peers, or you are graded in relation to your peers, which is HOW YOU ARE GRADED IN MOST OF YOUR CLASSES, the people you are competing against is the most important factor. If I know more physics than 99% of the peope on the planet, but 100 Steven hawkings is in my class, and only 10 person can get a 4.0, will dental schools give a crap that I know SOOO much about physics if my grade was a 0.5 because the curve was working so badly against my favor?

So what is the "most important factor" at Harvard?

I don't know how you ever got pass 2nd grade english.

English is a class dealing with composition, phrasing and structure of the English language as well as proper punctuation and vocabulary. You meant to insult my 2nd grade logic skills.

 

[sajjy]

It really depends on how you define 'survive'...does that mean do well enough to graduate or do well enough to get into Harvard like you...I don't think that if you work hard you could succeed in all fields...some people just have a knack for certain fields and not for other fields...and they usually realize when a field isn't for them when they try really HARD but are unable to do well enough to compete with others who just are better than them (I have such friends)...hardworking doesn't always parallel intelligence, or success in any field one chooses.

Success can be subjective. So, hard work=success.

 

[NAVY DDS 2010]

What armorshell and navyDDS are trying to say is that we should all just go to community college. ALL colleges are equal, no matter the quality of students in there. THERE IS NO WAY TO MAKE AN ARGUEMENT THAT ONE IS BETTER THAN THE OTHER. THEYare both right, I am wrong.

You truly are a politician. You choose to make comments on only part of the facts and you distort what is said. No where did I say that ALL colleges are equal. I have even made a comment that "do i think all small colleges are the same? No." But, your assumption that colleges, just because they are prestigious are better and harder than a small college, is just plain wrong. There are plenty of small colleges that do require you to work as hard. Plus, no where were Community Colleges brought into this areguement by either armorshell or I. Small 4 year colleges and community colleges are different. The 'prestigious' schools and small 4 year colleges can be compared because they offer the same degrees and courseloads. You cannot compare a CC to any 4 year college since you are comparing an associate degree to a BS/BA. You are throwing a totally different variable into the arguement now.

 

[americanpierg]

As of this quarter, I have taken 210 credits. 114 of those credits are in clinical and pre-clinical classes. I have 3 quarters left (30-32 credits per quarter), and the majority of those will be in clinical courses.

Feel free to confirm that via the school catalog:
http://dental.pacific.edu/Documents/microsites/acad_affairs/acrobat/Catalog2008_2010.pdf

Now I again await any proof your claims.

This shows me absolutely no proof as to what you were saying. Show me PROOF of the lack of statistical correlation between enterting statistics and performance in Dental School. What you are showing me is that half your work is in a non academic field. You said your performance in 50% of the credit load cannot be predicted by entering stats, SHOW me proof of this.

Show me a lack of correlatin between entering stats and performance within this 50%. Do you know what this means, this mean you have to show me that the correlation between entering stats and performance in dental school is insignificant within this 50%. This is exactlyt he kind of proof you wanted from my assertions, and therefore I have the right to ask you for the same.

Until you provide this proof, I am done with this.

 

[americanpierg]

You truly are a politician. You choose to make comments on only part of the facts and you distort what is said. No where did I say that ALL colleges are equal. I have even made a comment that "do i think all small colleges are the same? No." But, your assumption that colleges, just because they are prestigious are better and harder than a small college, is just plain wrong. There are plenty of small colleges that do require you to work as hard. Plus, no where were Community Colleges brought into this areguement by either armorshell or I. Small 4 year colleges and community colleges are different. The 'prestigious' schools and small 4 year colleges can be compared because they offer the same degrees and courseloads. You cannot compare a CC to any 4 year college since you are comparing an associate degree to a BS/BA. You are throwing a totally different variable into the arguement now.

SHOW me PROOF that the courseload in my community college is worse than the courseload at your small college. Is your physics class at your small college "harder" than the one at my college? how do you know this. is your education "better' becuase you paid for it at your small college while i paid for it at my community college, even if we learn the same thing. Isn't learning that r=d/t at your small college mean the same thing as at my college?

I worked just as hard as you did to get my degree, I put in just as much effort to get my 4.0 as you could at your college. What makes your college that much harder than mine? How do you make such an assertion that your small colleg is better than my community college if I worked just as hard as you did?

If I wanted to, I could have gotten a 4.0 at harvard, instead i went to a community college. I had to learn just as much things as you did, work just as hard as you did. Nothing was handed to me.


How is a 4.0 in PHY101 at a small college = to a 4.0 in PHY101 at Harvard, while a 4.0 in PHY101 at a small college NOT equal to a 4.0 in PHY101 at a community college? Theyre the same subject. You learn the same stuff. Physics is Physics.You jsut cant admit that people at community colleges are as smart as people at small colleges. You are hypocritical.
I'm done with this arguement.

 

[sajjy]

GUYS! This is enough.

What armorshell and navyDDS are trying to say is that we should all just go to community college. ALL colleges are equal, no matter the quality of students in there. THERE IS NO WAY TO MAKE AN ARGUEMENT THAT ONE IS BETTER THAN THE OTHER. THEYare both right, I am wrong. A community college is just as great as an IVY league and the grades should be weighed the same.

I have this friend, smartest guy i have ever met in the world, and he didn't have enough money for college. He got accepted to Harvard and Stanford, but he couldn't attend because he didnt have any scholarships. He went to CC with me at California State Community College and we both got a 4.0.

Our 4.0 at California State Community College is just as good as a 4.0 at Harvard University.

California State Community College = Harvard University

I don't care what any of you say.

That's all.

SHOW me PROOF that the courseload in my community college is worse than the courseload at your small college.

I worked just as hard as you did to get my degree, I put in just as much effort to get my 4.0 as you could at your college. What makes your college that much harder than mine?

If I wanted to, I could have gotten a 4.0 at harvard, instead i went to a community college. I had to learn just as much things as you did, work just as hard as you did. Nothing was handed to me.

You jsut cant admit that people are community colleges are as smart as people at small colleges.

I'm done with this arguement.

I though your friend went to CC over Harvard?

 

[sajjy]

SHOW me PROOF that the courseload in my community college is worse than the courseload at your small college. Is your physics class at your small college "harder" than the one at my college? how do you know this. is your education "better' becuase you paid for it at your small college while i paid for it at my community college, even if we learn the same thing. Isn't learning that r=d/t at your small college mean the same thing as at my college?

I worked just as hard as you did to get my degree, I put in just as much effort to get my 4.0 as you could at your college. What makes your college that much harder than mine? How do you make such an assertion that your small colleg is better than my community college if I worked just as hard as you did?

If I wanted to, I could have gotten a 4.0 at harvard, instead i went to a community college. I had to learn just as much things as you did, work just as hard as you did. Nothing was handed to me.

You jsut cant admit that people are community colleges are as smart as people at small colleges. You are hypocritical.

I'm done with this arguement.

Similarly students at a 4 year university can be as smart as students at an Ivy or a prestigious college.

 

[armorshell]

This shows me absolutely no proof as to what you were saying. Show me PROOF of the lack of statistical correlation between enterting statistics and performance in Dental School. What you are showing me is that half your work is in a non academic field, have you not taken a class of statistic in your educational career? You said your performance in 50% of the credit load cannot be predicted by entering stats, SHOW me proof of this.

Show me a lack of correlatin between entering stats and performance within this 50%.

Until then, I am done with this.

Here is the post I responded to with that information:

Show me proof of this 50/50 split. You have not shown any proof of your assertions in any meaningful way. Ever consider a career in politics?

That right there is proof of a 50/50 split, which is exactly what you asked for. Are you having problems translating your thoughts into text?

Anyway, here you go:

Do Admissions Data and NBDE Part I Scores Predict Clinical Performance Among Dental Students?

Sang E. Park, D.D.S., M.M.Sc.; Srinivas M. Susarla, B.A.; Ward Massey, B.D.S., Ph.D.

Key words: DAT, PAT, NBDE Part I, clinical outcomes

Submitted for publication 11/30/05; accepted 01/27/06

The purpose of this study was to evaluate possible associations between a variety of measures used to evaluate didactic knowledge and clinical performance within a predoctoral dental program. In this study, clinical performance was assessed by clinical productivity and clinical proficiency across four different competency areas: operative dentistry, major restorative dentistry, fixed prosthodontics, and removable prosthodontics. Predental and preclinical predictors were undergraduate GPAs (overall and science), DAT subtest scores (including the Perceptual Ability Test, PAT), and performance on subtests of Part I of the National Board Dental Examination. The sample consisted of eighty-four students at the Harvard School of Dental Medicine who graduated during the period 2002–04. Associations between predictors and outcomes were first evaluated individually. Any associations that were near statistically significant (p=0.15) were then included in a multiple linear regression model. The criterion for statistical significance in the multiple linear regression model was p=0.05. While a number of measures were associated in bivariate analyses, few predictors were statistically significantly associated with clinical outcomes in the multiple regression analyses. Those predictors that were associated with clinical outcomes were also not consistently associated with the different outcomes studied. These data indicate that, within this study population, there is little to no uniform association between preclinical didactic performance and measurements of clinical productivity and clinical proficiency. It is possible that the overlap in skill sets required for success in the predental/preclinical and clinical areas is minimal.

Reliability and Validity of a Manual Dexterity Test to Predict Preclinical Grades

Stuart A. Gansky, Dr.P.H.; Hilary Pritchard, M.S.; Ernest Kahl, D.D.S.; Daniel Mendoza, D.D.S.; William Bird, D.D.S., M.P.H.; Arthur J. Miller, Ph.D.; David Graham, D.D.S.
Dr. Gansky is Assistant Professor, Center to Address Disparities in Children's Oral Health, Division of Oral Epidemiology and Dental Public Health, Department of Preventive and Restorative Dental Sciences; Ms. Pritchard is special assistant and administrator, Dean's Office; Dr. Kahl is Clinical Professor, Department of Preventive and Restorative Dental Sciences; Dr. Mendoza is Clinical Professor, Department of Preventive and Restorative Dental Sciences; Dr. Bird is Clinical Professor and Associate Dean, Clinical Affairs; Dr. Miller is Professor, Division of Orthodontics; and Dr. Graham is Clinical Professor, Department of Preventive and Restorative Dental Sciences—all at the School of Dentistry, University of California, San Francisco. Direct correspondence and requests for reprints to Dr. David Graham, Box 0758, Department of Preventive and Restorative Dental, Dental Clinics Building, 707 Parnassus St., University of California, San Francisco, CA 94143-0758; 415-476-1176 phone; [email protected].

Key words: psychomotor performance, task performance and analysis, aptitude tests, predictive value of tests, cohort studies, longitudinal studies, follow-up studies, dental students, dentistry, statistical models

Submitted for publication 10/16/03; accepted 06/24/04

The University of California, San Francisco School of Dentistry wanted to determine if a predental school manual dexterity test predicts: 1) subsequent grades in preclinical restorative courses, and 2) faculty perceptions of satisfactory performance in these skills that would indicate the student is ready to advance to the clinic. The study population was comprised of all 244 applicants admitted to UCSF School of Dentistry's D.D.S. program from Classes of 2000 to 2002 and who matriculated into the program. The manual dexterity test (MDT) consisted of a two-hour block-carving test. Three preclinical faculty, three clinical faculty, and two basic science faculty graded the blocks. Even after instruction and calibration, faculty varied greatly in their grading (intra-rater reliability kappa statistics ranging from 0.34 to 1.00). Two of three preclinical raters gave No Passes for the MDT in 9.8 percent of the incoming, first-year dental students. Of these twenty-three students, only four (17 percent) were in the lower 10 percent of their classes according to their five preclinical restorative laboratory courses after two years, and four (33 percent) were among the twelve students the three preclinical laboratory directors identified as laboratory cautions. The MDT did not significantly (p=0.342) predict students in the bottom 10 percent after five restorative preclinical laboratory courses, above and beyond current admissions criteria. Among current admissions criteria, PAT score was the only item at least moderately correlated with preclinical average percentile class rank (Spearman correlation = 0.34). In conclusion, the MDT did not appear to add information to the current admissions criteria.

If you'd like to wait, I can dig up about a half-dozen more citations for you. The literature is actually totally one sided on this issue too, which is nice for my position. The inability to judge an applicant's clinical prowess is a huge problem in dental education (and ENT, Gen Surg, PRS, Uro, etc...)and there are always groups trying develop methods to assess prospective students.

 

[armorshell]

I'm done with this arguement.

This is the 3rd time you've been "done." After having been constantly insulted by you for my lack of logic and basic English skills, I'm forced to wonder if you know what the word "done" means.

Astounding.

 

[NAVY DDS 2010]

SHOW me PROOF that the courseload in my community college is worse than the courseload at your small college.

I worked just as hard as you did to get my degree, I put in just as much effort to get my 4.0 as you could at your college. What makes your college that much harder than mine?

If I wanted to, I could have gotten a 4.0 at harvard, instead i went to a community college. I had to learn just as much things as you did, work just as hard as you did. Nothing was handed to me.

You jsut cant admit that people are community colleges are as smart as people at small colleges.

I'm done with this arguement.

Again, you are illiterate. You called out armorshell stating "I don't know how you ever got pass 2nd grade english." My question for you is, how did you ever pass 2nd grade english? You can read, but comprehension is your downfall! WHERE did I say anything negative about CC. I said you CANNOT COMPARE them as they offer different degrees. Therefore, they don't offer all the same courses!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Therefore, you CANNOT compare!!!!!!!

If anything, I will DEFEND a CC from someone who goes to a prestigious college.

Now, based on your last post which I quoted above, you have just sided with me on the whole areguement!!!!!! SMART PEOPLE DO GO TO SMALL COLLEGES, not just 'Prestigious' ones!!!!!!!!! Really, how did make it through english in Jr High, Sr High and college if you cannot comprehend what others say and even stick to one arguement?

Your last post made you look sooo foolish because you totally contradicted everything you have said up to that point.

 

[sajjy]

Again, you are illiterate. You called out armorshell stating "I don't know how you ever got pass 2nd grade english." My question for you is, how did you ever pass 2nd grade english? You can read, but comprehension is your downfall! WHERE did I say anything negative about CC. I said you CANNOT COMPARE them as they offer different degrees. Therefore, they don't offer all the same courses!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Therefore, you CANNOT compare!!!!!!!

If anything, I will DEFEND a CC from someone who goes to a prestigious college.

Now, based on your last post which I quoted above, you have just sided with me on the whole areguement!!!!!! SMART PEOPLE DO GO TO SMALL COLLEGES, not just 'Prestigious' ones!!!!!!!!! Really, how did make it through english in Jr High, Sr High and college if you cannot comprehend what others say and even stick to one arguement?

Your last post made you look sooo foolish because you totally contradicted everything you have said up to that point.

...

 

[americanpierg]

Again, you are illiterate. You called out armorshell stating "I don't know how you ever got pass 2nd grade english." My question for you is, how did you ever pass 2nd grade english? You can read, but comprehension is your downfall! WHERE did I say anything negative about CC. I said you CANNOT COMPARE them as they offer different degrees. Therefore, they don't offer all the same courses!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Therefore, you CANNOT compare!!!!!!!

If anything, I will DEFEND a CC from someone who goes to a prestigious college.

Now, based on your last post which I quoted above, you have just sided with me on the whole areguement!!!!!! SMART PEOPLE DO GO TO SMALL COLLEGES, not just 'Prestigious' ones!!!!!!!!! Really, how did make it through english in Jr High, Sr High and college if you cannot comprehend what others say and even stick to one arguement?

Your last post made you look sooo foolish because you totally contradicted everything you have said up to that point.

Yes, so we are in agreement then.

My 4.0 in my Physics and Biology classes at community college are worth as much as the 4.0s people at Harvard get in their Physics and Biology classes. We both know this, we both agree to this.

Physics is pysics and biology is biology. I got my BS degree at a univeristy, but all the core classes are at COmmunity Colleges, of which i got 4.0s at all of them. YET most dental schools wont accept my community college credits!

WHY IS THAT? I worked just as hard to get those grade as those who got them at Harvard. I know this kid in my class who was the smartest kid ive never met and got into harvard, but couldnt afford it so he went to CC with me. How come my grades in thsoe classes will be voided by dental schoool admissions?

WHY!? They are the same and should not be weighed any differently!!!

Someone explain to me whyyy!

 

[americanpierg]

guys, sorry to break it to you, but your GPA from a no name school in the middle of no where is inflated in relation to the GPA of someone from a prestigious univeristy, its as simple as that. its just a way of life and you just gotta accept it

saying theyre the same is like saying the stats of quarterbacks coming out of midmajors arent inflated in relation to those in coming out of the big 6 conferences. COLT BRENNAN cough cough

if you were good enough, you would be at a BCS school. If you were smart enough, you would be at a prestigious school.

BUT Pie, I didn't have the money to go to a big school so I went to a small school.

Okay, Chad Pennington and Joe Flacco are good, and they also went to midmajor schools (football equivalent of a "small college"). Could they have been good at BCS schools, for sure. BUT Does the fact that they went to midmajor schools change the fact that BCS conferences are still MORE DIFFICULT than none BCS conferences? Does them going there change the fact that midmajor atheletes are competing against weaker competetion and therefore their stats are INFLATED? NO!!!


Sorry to break it to you small school guys, but thats a fact of life. Live with it.

 

[NAVY DDS 2010]

Yes, so we are in agreement then.

My 4.0 in my Physics and Biology classes at community college are worth as much as the 4.0s people at Harvard get in their Physics and Biology classes. We both know this, we both agree to this.

Physics is pysics and biology is biology. I got my BS degree at a univeristy, but all the core classes are at COmmunity Colleges, of which i got 4.0s at all of them. YET most dental schools wont accept my community college credits!

WHY IS THAT? I worked just as hard to get those grade as those who got them at Harvard. I know this kid in my class who was the smartest kid ive never met and got into harvard, but couldnt afford it so he went to CC with me. How come my grades in thsoe classes will be voided by dental schoool admissions?

WHY!? They are the same and should not be weighed any differently!!!

Someone explain to me whyyy!

As long as the same material is covered, then yes, I agree that a CC General Physics course should be weighted the same. If the classes are taught basically with the same info, then it doesn't matter if you learn the material from a CC or Harvard, you still learned the material. I actually believe that at a CC or Small College, you will actually learn the material better because usually class sizes are MUCH SMALLER. This allows more one on one time with the professor which allows for a better environment for learning.

Why don't they accept them? I do not know. I never had to ask. But the next time I talk to our Assoc Dean of Student Affairs, I'll get his thoughts. The only thing I can think of is that some CCs are accredited by different agencies than 4 year colleges in certain regions of the country and some CCs aren't accredited at all.

Are we in agreement with what you were originally stating, NO!

 

[NAVY DDS 2010]

guys, sorry to break it to you, but your GPA from a no name school in the middle of no where is inflated in relation to the GPA of someone from a prestigious univeristy, its as simple as that. its just a way of life and you just gotta accept it

Sorry to break it to you small school guys, but thats a fact of life. Live with it.

First of all, you look like a fool contradicting yourself.

Secondly, your ability to comprehend what people write is pathetic. If you do comprehend, then you need to understand that when you argue points, you need to take into consideration everything a person says and not distort what they say or state things they NEVER said. otherwise, you are no better then most all politicians today.

Thirdly, I really could give a flip about what you or others BELIEVE about how dental schools weigh one school over another. The only reason why I am arguing my case is for those students who fall into my shoes. Financially, I couldn't afford to go to a D-IA school. Others cannot go because they need to live near home because of family issues or other personal issues. I want to make sure they know that no matter what people like you say (and then in yor case contradict yourself), that dental schools do look at small colleges without prejudice. Personally, I don't care about anything that comes out of your mouth (or fingertips) because it has absolutely no bearing on me. I applied in 1995 and applied in 2005 and was accepted to every school I applied to. Going to a small college really hurt me!!!! And MY ELEVATED GPA really was looked down upon because they knew I really wasn't that smart. That is why I am having SOOOO much trouble in d-school.You on the otherhand have a major complex because your CC credits were rejected. You, on the other hand, are now trying to inflate the importance of one thing to compensate for the fact that some schools rejected you in another way. I NEVER had a problem getting into d-school via my route of college. You are seemingly running into a problem and now feel the need to justify yourself.

No matter who is right or wrong, you got to love that armorshell and I are in a position you only dream about right now!!!

 

[doc3232]

I don't really understand what is being said, but IMO I think it is a lot easier to get a 4.0 in a CC or a non-"prestigious" school than a 4.0 in a "prestigious" school that does not inflate gpas. I am speaking very generally.

I am not saying that the person who got a 4.0 in the the CC is not smarter.

 

[armorshell]

I simply laugh at the assertion that "most dental schools" "voided" your CC credits. I did all my pre-reqs at a community college and got accepted to several schools *including an Ivy league school*

By the way, simply stating that something "is a fact" over and over again doesn't make it true. Again, where's the proof?

Just for fun, here's some research showing what school you go to makes absolutely no difference regarding your life's outcomes:

http://www.krueger.princeton.edu/04_27_2000.htm
http://pricetheory.uchicago.edu/levitt/Papers/schoolchoicelottery.pdf
http://www.brookings.edu/articles/2004/10education_easterbrook.aspx
http://www.nber.org/papers/w7322

 

[NAVY DDS 2010]

if you were good enough, you would be at a BCS school. If you were smart enough, you would be at a prestigious school.

BUT Pie, I didn't have the money to go to a big school so I went to a small school.

First of all, I screwed off in HS, so no one can compare my intelligence to no getting into a BCS or 'Prestigious' school. If it weren't for baseball, I really didn't want to go to college while I was in HS. It was in college where I decided to do something with my life and then applied myself to my studies. That is why I didn't receive scholarship money to go to a bigger school.

Next, what the do you mean ' But Pie, ......'?

 

[americanpierg]

First of all, you look like a fool contradicting yourself.

You on the otherhand have a major complex because your CC credits were rejected. You, on the other hand, are now trying to inflate the importance of one thing to compensate for the fact that some schools rejected you in another way. I NEVER had a problem getting into d-school via my route of college. You are seemingly running into a problem and now feel the need to justify yourself.

No matter who is right or wrong, you got to love that armorshell and I are in a position you only dream about right now!!!

LOL I never went to a CC, I never took courses at a CC, that was sarcasm to get you to admit that a 4.0 in a Physics course at a CC is not the same as a 4.0 in a Physics course at Harvard, which you can't even admit.


I guess it isn't a coincidence that of the only two people arguing soooo hard about how small colleges are as difficult as ivy leagues, ONE went to a small college where the tuition was 500 a semester, and the other did all his pre-reqs at a community college? You are smart, we get it. You became dentists. This doesn't change the fact that your GPA was easier to get than if it was from a school like Harvard. **Bias anyone**? Are you two trying to compensate for something here? I went to a state university, but also got accepted to a top 20 private university in the same state. I chose the state university because the tuition was 1/4th as much, and I knew I was going to grad school so undergrad didn't mean anything. it would ultimately be about the numbers. Is my GPA inflated compared to the other university? YES, IT IS. The curve in some of my introductory science classes were a joke, because many people in those classes were just plain idiots. Would you find as many idiots to help pull the curve down at a school like Harvard. NO. I can admit to this, why can't you?


I can't even argue anymore after NAVYDDS stated that a grade in CC class holds just as much weight as the same grade at a Harvard class. IF IT DOES, DENTAL SCHOOLS WOULDN'T PUT A LIMIT ON HOW MANY CREDITS YOU CAN TAKE AT A CC. I can't even believe I've been arguing with someone who thinks this, because obviously they aren't thinking logically, and nothing will change what they believe.

Well, in conclusion, I am right, you are wrong. You are obviously not gonna admit you are wrong, so this is going no where. This is my last post in this thread. Grades at community colleges and small schools in the middle of no where are easier to get than the same grade at a top unniversity.

 

[Oracle DMD]

LOL I never went to a CC, I never took courses at a CC, that was sarcasm to get you to admit that a 4.0 in a Physics course at a CC is not the same as a 4.0 in a Physics course at Harvard, which you can't even admit.


I guess it isn't a coincidence that of the only two people arguing soooo hard about how small colleges are as difficult as ivy leagues, ONE went to a small college where the tuition was 500 a semester, and the other did all his pre-reqs at a community college? You are smart, we get it. You became dentists. This doesn't change the fact that your GPA was easier to get than if it was from a school like Harvard. **Bias anyone**? Are you two trying to compensate for something here? I went to a state university, but also got accepted to a top 20 private university in the same state. I chose the state university because the tuition was 1/4th as much, and I knew I was going to grad school so undergrad didn't mean anything. it would ultimately be about the numbers. Is my GPA inflated compared to the other university? YES, IT IS. The curve in some of my introductory science classes were a joke, because many people in those classes were just plain idiots. Would you find as many idiots to help pull the curve down at a school like Harvard. NO. I can admit to this, why can't you?


I can't even argue anymore after NAVYDDS stated that a grade in CC class holds just as much weight as the same grade at a Harvard class. IF IT DOES, DENTAL SCHOOLS WOULDN'T PUT A LIMIT ON HOW MANY CREDITS YOU CAN TAKE AT A CC. I can't even believe I've been arguing with someone who thinks this, because obviously they aren't thinking logically, and nothing will change what they believe.

Well, in conclusion, I am right, you are wrong. You are obviously not gonna admit you are wrong, so this is going no where. This is my last post in this thread. Grades at community colleges and small schools in the middle of no where are easier to get than the same grade at a top unniversity.

one more time....if you went to harvard (or whatever ivy school makes you feel superior to your colleagues) you will not get much more than a 0.2 bump in gpa over someone who went to pigknuckle arkansas state. so all the arguing over what is a "top tier" and how tough your program is blah blah is all over that 0.2 bump. wow. check out the big brains on you! maybe you could should pick up a couple extra credits at charm school!

 

[wwdaffodils]

The curve in some of my introductory science classes were a joke, because many people in those classes were just plain idiots. Would you find as many idiots to help pull the curve down at a school like Harvard. NO. I can admit to this, why can't you?

I can't even believe I've been arguing with someone who thinks this, because obviously they aren't thinking logically, and nothing will change what they believe.

I do believe that some students, like myself, thrive better in a competitive environment, so going to a so-called "prestigious" university unquestionably forced me to study more than I would have if I went to "middle-of-nowhere", non-competitive university. So technically, I agree with you, and I think society as a whole agrees with this on some subconsious level. But there's something so wrong about your attitude-- your incessant need to prove that you're better than everyone else is the very reason why you have frantic high school seniors trying desperately to get into "name brand" colleges that mommy and daddy will be proud of, one that mommy and daddy can parade over other mothers and fathers with supposedly dumb children. Learn some humility. Stop being a pretentious douchebag.

 

[Vicviper]

LOL I never went to a CC, I never took courses at a CC, that was sarcasm to get you to admit that a 4.0 in a Physics course at a CC is not the same as a 4.0 in a Physics course at Harvard, which you can't even admit.

*If interested in the original topic, please skip to the last paragraph*

Hehe, is it just me, or did anyone else imagine Pie raising his (or her) fists in victory, throwing his (or her) head back and screaming something along the lines of "BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!! CHECKMATE!"

I did love how Pie seemed to make going to a CC sound like some horrible disease though, that cracked me up a tad.

In the future, please don't use silly ruses to try to "prove" a point - if you're wanting to explain a point, please show evidence and present your points in a clear manner, that way, you may be able to actually convince people who disagree with you, rather than preach to the choir who already does. I actually felt bad for you when you said your CC credits were rejected, and thought your CC must not have represented itself very well on the national accreditation stage.

Armor also provided all the information you asked for, and you didn't even bother to respond.

Anyways, I also took all of my pre-reqs at my great CC, and I will definitely say that it can be much harder to get a 4.0 in your introductory classes, and again, CAN, not IS. My Ochem professor gave out maybe 4 A's a semester, and that wasn't because of any curve, none of my classes were curved there, you only earned an A if you knew the material cold. You couldn't simply earn an A if you knew more than anyone else - knowing 60% of the info when everyone else only knows 50% means that you should still fail.

Anyways, not to get more onto my old favorite, the CC debate, or how much I can disagree with bell curved grading on principle, as I said in my previous post, and many others have also agreed with, going to an elite school may make some difference, but it won't be night and day as far as admissions is concerned.

 

[armorshell]

I guess it isn't a coincidence that of the only two people arguing soooo hard about how small colleges are as difficult as ivy leagues, ONE went to a small college where the tuition was 500 a semester, and the other did all his pre-reqs at a community college? You are smart, we get it. You became dentists. This doesn't change the fact that your GPA was easier to get than if it was from a school like Harvard. **Bias anyone**? Are you two trying to compensate for something here?

Well, you've noticed theres only one arguing in your favor, right? And is it really surprising that we're "biased?" There's a reason we went down the pathway we did, and that's obviously why we're passionately arguing our points.

As far as who appears to be "compensating for something", you might want to turn a mirror on this thread. Navy and I have absolutely nothing to compensate for, educationally we're years ahead of you and it seems cognitively we have a running start as well. You're the one beating your fists on your chest and figuratively screaming about how big you're "e-peen" is.

I went to a state university, but also got accepted to a top 20 private university in the same state. I chose the state university because the tuition was 1/4th as much, and I knew I was going to grad school so undergrad didn't mean anything. it would ultimately be about the numbers. Is my GPA inflated compared to the other university? YES, IT IS. The curve in some of my introductory science classes were a joke, because many people in those classes were just plain idiots. Would you find as many idiots to help pull the curve down at a school like Harvard. NO. I can admit to this, why can't you?

So your point is that your personal, anecdotal and subjective experience of your undergrad education is more important and valuable than everyone elses personal, anecdotal and subjective experience? It's that because you're the geometric center of the universe, because I learned differently in Cosmology 101.

Still waiting on that proof!

I can't even argue anymore

Oh my, are you "done"?!

I can't even argue anymore after NAVYDDS stated that a grade in CC class holds just as much weight as the same grade at a Harvard class. IF IT DOES, DENTAL SCHOOLS WOULDN'T PUT A LIMIT ON HOW MANY CREDITS YOU CAN TAKE AT A CC.

*Some* dental schools do this. *Most* do not.

I can't even believe I've been arguing with someone who thinks this, because obviously they aren't thinking logically, and nothing will change what they believe.

It's a sign of weakness in your arguments to constantly need toclaim that the other person simply "doesn't understand" or "isn't thinking logically." Navy and I could easily (and I think more reliably) claim that you don't think logically.

As far as never changing your mind, I've presented you with almost a dozens research articles which you've ignored,I've asked dozens of targeted questions which you've ignored, and it's patently clear that when you stumble across something you can't deal with, you'd prefer to stick your fingers in your ears and yell obscenities rather than slightly alter your world view.

This is the part where you would say "I'M DONE." I'm not done. I want you to answer all the questions I've posed to you in this thread. Can you? Will you?

 

[armorshell]

one more time....if you went to harvard (or whatever ivy school makes you feel superior to your colleagues) you will not get much more than a 0.2 bump in gpa over someone who went to pigknuckle arkansas state. so all the arguing over what is a "top tier" and how tough your program is blah blah is all over that 0.2 bump. wow. check out the big brains on you! maybe you could should pick up a couple extra credits at charm school!

Even that .2 bump makes no sense to me. Why would an admissions officer need to bother with that when the have the Pigknuckle Arkansas State and Harvard kid's DAT scores right there.

If the PASguy has a 4.0 and 22, and the Harvard guy has a 3.6 and 22, I see no difference between those students. This is not because I'm giving imaginary points to the Harvard guy, but because they've managed to achieve the same outcome, albeit through different pathways.

This is not what you usually see in threads like this. They tend to present as someone from a "top ten college" or "super ultra hard engineering major" with a 19 on the DAT wondering how many free candies they get to bump up their 2.9 GPA.

 

[doc3232]

Even that .2 bump makes no sense to me. Why would an admissions officer need to bother with that when the have the Pigknuckle Arkansas State and Harvard kid's DAT scores right there.

If the PASguy has a 4.0 and 22, and the Harvard guy has a 3.6 and 22, I see no difference between those students. This is not because I'm giving imaginary points to the Harvard guy, but because they've managed to achieve the same outcome, albeit through different pathways.

This is not what you usually see in threads like this. They tend to present as someone from a "top ten college" or "super ultra hard engineering major" with a 19 on the DAT wondering how many free candies they get to bump up their 2.9 GPA.

 

[DATdestroyer123]

I don't really have the time or energy right now to read all of the comments posted here, but I did glance through some of it and I want you guys to hear what I have to say.

I went to both a CC and also a 4year prestigious university. I took community college classes in high school and I thought I was the smartest kid ever, because I got top scores in all of my college classes, and I didn't even try that hard. Then after graduating from high school, I went to my prestigious four year university. My first semester there I took a full course load with lots of science classes, because I had done so well in both high school and at CC that I thought it should be a piece of cake for me. Well let me tell you guys that after the first semester I was about to drop out, because I could not understand why my 80% on a physics exam was equivalent to a 2.7 after the curve. Now for some of you a 2.7 might be a good grade, but for someone like me who had done so well in CC(3.9GPA), this was a big FAIL. At a CC I was just competing with myself and I was so proud to do so well, but at my known 4year uni, I was COMPARED to all of the 300 students that wanted to go to medical/dental/pharmacy/or some other health profession. My study habits that helped me get a 4.0 in CC didn't even help me get a 3.0 at my 4year.

I do also agree that students at a no name college will probably have the same advantage as those who take CC credits. Why? because not all of the students in their classes want to get into harvard dental school/medical/etc school. So those students can get a 3.7 on their physics exam with an 80% when someone like me will be getting a 2.6, because the smartest kids from all around the US got into my school and are taking a class with me.

I'm not really trying to convince anyone of anything here, just giving my opinion about this whole issue. Now you guys don't really need to argue about it either! None of us are adcoms and trying to convince each other who is right will only waste precious time. Instead of posting more comments here I suggest we all go do something productive! please...