DOs Residency Merger with ACGME

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JoeUSA said:
I am no so sure that this is true. Take a look at the surgical residents at Mercy. Previously, they were DOs. Now that they are an ACGME program, all of the first year surgical residents are MDs. The new Plastic Fellow is also an MD. Previously, they were DOs.

http://www.mercydesmoines.org/surgery-residency
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One of the largest reasons why

Sincerely,

Charles Goldman , M.D., F.A.C.S.

Program Director
Mercy Medical Center – Des Moines
 
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hallowmann said:
Not really sure what you mean by "reveal process", I'm guessing you mean the date of the "reveal" (the Friday of match week, with everyone finding out on Monday whether they matched), because even among MD schools not all have a "Match day" ceremony with the opening of envelopes or announcing of positions. By 2020, there should be no reason for the DO and MD matches to be separate, as all AOA programs will either become ACGME accredited or lose accreditation, so all will likely be run by the NRMP match. That said, nothing official has been stated about when that will take place or whether it even will, but its been implied that there would be no reason to have two matching systems, as all programs would be open to all applicants.
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Thank you! So helpful!
 
What will happen to individual DO schools' OPTI programs? Will these residencies still be associated with these particular schools?
 
TheaterOfTheme said:
What will happen to individual DO schools' OPTI programs? Will these residencies still be associated with these particular schools?
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I believe that if the sponsor is the school then they still should be associated to the schools. However, if the sponsor is the hospital then it is tough to say if they will still choose to be associated with osteopathic schools.

EDIT MADE
 
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TheaterOfTheme said:
Do you think all top level AOA spots are out for DOs now?
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I think the Mercy selection change that excluded DOs for MDs for new PGY 1 positions illustrates that if a hospital is not a DO hospital (not run by DOs, does not have a DO board), postgraduate education programs will seek ACGME accreditation and preferentially take MDs. It is more prestigious. ACGME programs in MD hospitals prefer MDs from American medical schools. This will become more problematic as hospitals close and others merge. But, we should not be discouraged. We need to move foward and pursue our dreams of getting the best education and training that we can as DOs. Unfortunately, discrimination persists. I cannot image that changing anytime soon since the MD degree has better brand recognition. Everyone knows what MD means. How many people know was DO means? More schools, more graduates, more diversity and more integration will help us to improve our brand recognition.
 
NurWollen said:
Why didn't @GUH say anything about it? Lol
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I just wish the osteopathic leadership fought a little bit harder for us. Fellowships mean squat if you can't match to residency in your specialty.
 
JoeUSA said:
I think the Mercy selection change that excluded DOs for MDs for new PGY 1 positions illustrates that if a hospital is not a DO hospital (not run by DOs, does not have a DO board), postgraduate education programs will seek ACGME accreditation and preferentially take MDs. It is more prestigious. ACGME programs in MD hospitals prefer MDs from American medical schools. This will become more problematic as hospitals close and others merge. But, we should not be discouraged. We need to move foward and pursue our dreams of getting the best education and training that we can as DOs. Unfortunately, discrimination persists. I cannot image that changing anytime soon since the MD degree has better brand recognition. Everyone knows what MD means. How many people know was DO means? More schools, more graduates, more diversity and more integration will help us to improve our brand recognition.
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Brand recognition does not explain a former AOA residency not taking any DOs. They already know what DOs are.
 
IslandStyle808 said:
I believe that if the sponsor is the school then they still should be associated to the schools. However, if the sponsor is the hospital then it is tough to say if they will still choose to be associated with osteopathic residencies.
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"All OGME programs are part of an Osteopathic Postdoctoral Training Institution (OPTI).Each OPTI is a community-based training consortium comprised of at least one college of osteopathic medicine and one hospital and may include additional hospitals and ambulatory training facilities."
http://www.osteopathic.org/inside-a...lopment-initiative/Pages/what-is-an-opti.aspx

All OPTIs are associated with a school...
 
IslandStyle808 said:
I believe that if the sponsor is the school then they still should be associated to the schools. However, if the sponsor is the hospital then it is tough to say if they will still choose to be associated with osteopathic residencies.
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"For instance, an Osteopathic Postdoctoral Training Institute (OPTI) with multiple programs in multiple states could qualify as a Sponsoring Institution—as long as the institution can demonstrate assumption of ultimate financial and academic responsibility for the programs that it sponsors and be in substantial compliance with other relevant ACGME Institutional Requirements."
http://www.acgme.org/acgmeweb/Portals/0/PDFs/Nasca-Community/FAQs.pdf on page 9

This is interesting wording. There are specific requirements for OPTIs to remain sponsoring institutions, apparently.
 
TheaterOfTheme said:
"All OGME programs are part of an Osteopathic Postdoctoral Training Institution (OPTI).Each OPTI is a community-based training consortium comprised of at least one college of osteopathic medicine and one hospital and may include additional hospitals and ambulatory training facilities."
http://www.osteopathic.org/inside-a...lopment-initiative/Pages/what-is-an-opti.aspx

All OPTIs are associated with a school...
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They all have to be associated with a schools. However, in the past it needed to be an osteopathic school. They could just as well be associated with local allopathic schools with them being ACGME accredited.

TheaterOfTheme said:
"For instance, an Osteopathic Postdoctoral Training Institute (OPTI) with multiple programs in multiple states could qualify as a Sponsoring Institution—as long as the institution can demonstrate assumption of ultimate financial and academic responsibility for the programs that it sponsors and be in substantial compliance with other relevant ACGME Institutional Requirements."
http://www.acgme.org/acgmeweb/Portals/0/PDFs/Nasca-Community/FAQs.pdf on page 9

This is interesting wording. There are specific requirements for OPTIs to remain sponsoring institutions, apparently.
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Not sure if an OPTI switching sponsors is a common thing, can't really comment on this.
 
GUH said:
I just wish the osteopathic leadership fought a little bit harder for us. Fellowships mean squat if you can't match to residency in your specialty.
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FTFY. Osteopathic leaders only care about their OMM brand and money. If they ever care about us, they would have pushed for better clinical rotations and I agree so much with your second sentence.

Cubsfan10 said:
And approximately 55 of the pre-accredited DO programs have MD program directors...
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Well, aren't we f**** then?

NurWollen said:
Why didn't @GUH say anything about it? Lol
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I think lots of us knew this is going to happen. I was lurking in the SOAP thread like you and saw that many unmatched applicants are thirsty for the open AOA spots. When these spots are available to MD, IMGs, and FMGs, they'll invigorate unmatched folks to apply.
 
I stumbled upon this old post on the subject:
hallowmann said:
POMA published the new H-800 resolution that was passed. I've copied and pasted just the Resolved portions below:

"3 RESOLVED, that the AOA will evaluate and report to the membership and AOA House of
4 Delegates annually, between 2015 and 2021, concerning the following issues:

5 1. The ability of AOA-trained and certified physicians to serve as program
6 directors in the single GME accreditation system;
7 2. The maintenance of smaller, rural and community based training programs;
8 3. The number of solely AOA certified physicians serving as program directors
9 in each specialty;
10 4. The number of osteopathic identified GME programs and number of
11 osteopathic identified GME positions gained and lost;
12 5. The number of osteopathic residents taking osteopathic board certification
13 examinations;
14 6. The status of recognition of osteopathic board certification being deemed
15 equivalent by the ACGME;
16 7. The importance of osteopathic board certification as a valid outcome
17 benchmark of the quality of osteopathic residency programs, and be it
18 further
19
20 RESOLVED, that any proposed single graduate medical education (GME) accreditation system
21 will provide for the preservation of the unique distinctiveness of osteopathic medicine,
22 osteopathic graduate medical education, osteopathic licensing examinations, osteopathic
23 board certification, osteopathic divisional societies, osteopathic specialty societies,
24 osteopathic specialty colleges, the AOA, and the osteopathic profession; and be it
25 further

26 RESOLVED, that the AOA remain vigilant in its oversight of the single accreditation process
27 and utilize its ability to cease negotiations as delineated in the MOU should osteopathic
28 principles and educational opportunities be materially compromised; and be it further

29 RESOLVED, that the AOA will seek to create an exception category to allow the
30 institution/program, on a case by case basis, up to a one year extension without
31 prejudice for an institution/program that has their budget previously planned so as not
32 to put that institution/program at a competitive disadvantage; and be it further

33 RESOLVED, that the AOA will advocate for an extension of the closure date for AOA
34 accreditation beyond July 1, 2020, where appropriate for individual programs on a case
35 by case basis; and be it further

36 RESOLVED, that the AOA House of Delegates expresses its support for the AOA’s entry into
37 a single accreditation system that perpetuates unique osteopathic graduate medical
38 education programs.

39 Explanatory Statement: The AOA will continue to monitor the progress of the transition to a single GME accreditation system and the emergence of any unintended consequences of the implementation of the new system."
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I am interested to see this year's report, and the extent to which they will sugar coat it or not. Specifically lines 7-11.
 
OMS398563 said:
Well... We WERE warned by many this would happen
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I'm not sure if anyone even listened to the warning. It's amazing that every time I talked to kids who are going to DO school next year , they will always mention the merger and go on to say that DO students are now basically the same if not better than MD students. This will often follow by big statements like "I'm thinking about doing plastic at Hopkins for my residency..." Or "DO students now can go wherever they want so I'm looking into neurosurgery at Yale!" It's only a matter of time until the next crop of DO grads realize what a raw deal this merger is for the osteopathic side.
 
I understand that surgical subspecialties may be even harder to match than it already is now, but how about specialties like Radiology, EM, Anesthesiology? Just curious...


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Honestly I think the merger will honestly not impact either side very much. I highly doubt it swings drastically one way or another. The people who were competative for competative specialties will still get them and those who weren't won't. Honestly the biggest impact will probably be felt by the bottom DO students who now don't have the small rural AOA programs to fall back on
 
AnatomyGrey12 said:
Honestly I think the merger will honestly not impact either side very much. I highly doubt it swings drastically one way or another. The people who were competative for competative specialties will still get them and those who weren't won't. Honestly the biggest impact will probably be felt by the bottom DO students who now don't have the small rural AOA programs to fall back on
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All this talk about the merger is making me feel like as a DO student that I will be restricted to Family Medicine or IM. Not that there is any problem being a family physician or internist, just hoping that I will have a fair shot at some other specialties that I may find interesting down the road. Thank you for your input!


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AnatomyGrey12 said:
Honestly I think the merger will honestly not impact either side very much. I highly doubt it swings drastically one way or another. The people who were competative for competative specialties will still get them and those who weren't won't. Honestly the biggest impact will probably be felt by the bottom DO students who now don't have the small rural AOA programs to fall back on
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With former AOA programs in fairly competitive specialties such as general surgery taking less or zero DOs, it is clear that the GME takeover/Single Accreditation/merger has already impacted DO students who are not at the bottom of their classes.
 
WSU_BMS said:
All this talk about the merger is making me feel like as a DO student that I will be restricted to Family Medicine or IM. Not that there is any problem being a family physician or internist, just hoping that I will have a fair shot at some other specialties that I may find interesting down the road. Thank you for your input!


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Here are the words a neighbor of mine told me after he finished his Derm residency at Mayo Rochester (he is a DO), "work hard and get good grades, get a good board score, get a little research and many doors will open for you. If you are aiming for something ultra competative like NS, Derm, ENT then have a back up plan but if you really want something and put in the effort required you will be rewarded." Now not everyone can get Derm at Mayo as a DO (obviously a little bit of an outlier) but the advice is sound, work hard and you can do a lot of things. Remember a fair amount of DO students self select for FM, Peds, or IM (as a pcp) because that is genuinely what they want to do.
 
GUH said:
With former AOA programs in fairly competitive specialties such as general surgery taking less or zero DOs, it is clear that the GME takeover/Single Accreditation/merger has already impacted DO students who are not at the bottom of their classes.
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When the number of DOs that match into these mid tier difficulty specialties start to decline significantly then it will be time to worry, one program or two shouldn't be the concern. It should be the overall number that should be watched closely. We are most likely 5-10 years away from understanding what the merger really means.
 
AnatomyGrey12 said:
When the number of DOs that match into these mid tier difficulty specialties start to decline significantly then it will be time to worry, one program or two shouldn't be the concern. It should be the overall number that should be watched closely. We are most likely 5-10 years away from understanding what the merger really means.
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Actually, the AOA could just keep track of what percentage and number of DO graduates match into each specialty overall each year. Since programs are already switching over and all of them will have to by 2020, it would not take 5-10 years to notice a significant decline.

The challenge would be to get the AOA to gather and publish that data, even if it reveals that their decision had a detrimental impact on DOs trying to enter into those specialties. It would be nice if they did act with that level of transparency. Considering that they AOA still accredits residency programs right now, it's not too late for them to back out of the deal.
 
GUH said:
Actually, the AOA could just keep track of what percentage and number of DO graduates match into each specialty overall each year. Since programs are already switching over and all of them will have to by 2020, it would not take 5-10 years to notice a significant decline.

The challenge would be to get the AOA to gather and publish that data, even if it reveals that their decision had a detrimental impact on DOs trying to enter into those specialties. It would be nice if they did act with that level of transparency. Considering that they AOA still accredits residency programs right now, it's not too late for them to back out of the deal.
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I know, I wish they posted something as thorough as the NRMP report with board scores, number applied and matched, pubs, the works. That little report they do has very little useful information. I wonder if the NRMP will have a DO section post 2018 or whenever they decide to institute the single match.
 
AnatomyGrey12 said:
I know, I wish they posted something as thorough as the NRMP report with board scores, number applied and matched, pubs, the works. That little report they do has very little useful information. I wonder if the NRMP will have a DO section post 2018 or whenever they decide to institute the single match.
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DOs will no longer be considered independent applications, so it's safe to assume there will be a DO section.


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damn. this is bad. I am curious about the USMLE scores for the first years MD residents and the DO's that applied there. and compare the applications side-by-side with the MD/DO part taken out.
If the DO applicants are just as competitive but get boned because of the system, that's a damn shame
I might need to rethink this next application cycle
 
AwayFromReality said:
Do you have a source on that? The only thing I was able to find about the NRMP transition with the merger is their official statement which was released May 4th, 2015
http://www.nrmp.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/NRMP-Statement-regarding-Single-Match.pdf

Specifically: "No change is necessary in NRMP policies and procedures for qualified MD and DO applicants to participate in the NRMP Match."
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I should have been clearer: It's my opinion that they will no longer be considered independent applicants since it's a merger. I suppose I might be completely wrong, but that's what I understand. We'll have to see :O
 
Having YET to scroll through the entirety of this thread, is anyone else on the DO side of things also distraught about the merger? How can IMG's/FMG's/average to above average board scoring MD students now having the ability to vie for former AOA-only anest/rads/EM/GS/Ortho positions not worry you? I'm even more apprehensive about the community Derm and ENT/plastic positions that a 230-240 scoring MD would surely go for...

Hopefully all these dually-accredited programs will continue to place strong emphasis on away rotations...
 
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OverlyRomantic said:
I should have been clearer: It's my opinion that they will no longer be considered independent applicants since it's a merger. I suppose I might be completely wrong, but that's what I understand. We'll have to see :O
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This isn't a matter of opinion. There is absolutely no indication that DOs won't be considered independent applicants and continue to be grouped together with IMGs and FMGs.

It's nice to see some people finally waking up to the reality of this "merger".


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MeatTornado said:
This isn't a matter of opinion. There is absolutely no indication that DOs won't be considered independent applicants and continue to be grouped together with IMGs and FMGs.

It's nice to see some people finally waking up to the reality of this "merger".


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Please do not feed the troll folks.
 
MeatTornado said:
This isn't a matter of opinion. There is absolutely no indication that DOs won't be considered independent applicants and continue to be grouped together with IMGs and FMGs.

It's nice to see some people finally waking up to the reality of this "merger".


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And do you have any source pointing that it will be otherwise?
It is LOGICAL to think that it won't be just "independent" with the merger completion.
At this point, nothing is for sure.

GUH said:
With former AOA programs in fairly competitive specialties such as general surgery taking less or zero DOs, it is clear that the GME takeover/Single Accreditation/merger has already impacted DO students who are not at the bottom of their classes.
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Where are you getting the idea that general surgery is taking less or zero DOs? If you are talking about Mercy program in Des Moines...that's n=1..you should worry if it becomes statistically significant (ie bigger N).

Remember that AOA now sits as a member organization of ACGME, including its board of directors. Granted, they are NOT the majority but if there is a blatant discrimination, that will not going to hold.

With that said, I think overall effect of the merger will be maintaining the status quo. It's too early to make any sound assessment with limited data but things should get more clear in 5-10 years time.
 
basikfx said:
And do you have any source pointing that it will be otherwise?
It is LOGICAL to think that it won't be just "independent" with the merger completion.
At this point, nothing is for sure.



Where are you getting the idea that general surgery is taking less or zero DOs? If you are talking about Mercy program in Des Moines...that's n=1..you should worry if it becomes statistically significant (ie bigger N).

Remember that AOA now sits as a member organization of ACGME, including its board of directors. Granted, they are NOT the majority but if there is a blatant discrimination, that will not going to hold.

With that said, I think overall effect of the merger will be maintaining the status quo. It's too early to make any sound assessment with limited data but things should get more clear in 5-10 years time.
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Why 5-10 years? That's such a random and silly number. Just wait until the merger go through completely and watch how many MDs match into previously DO only residencies and the amount of DOs still matching at those places in that year and it should be clear. What's with the 5-10 years nonsense...
 
All this talk of DOs being restricted to FM and IM is ridiculous. DOs already match into specialties like EM, anesthesia, psych, neuro, PM&R, etc. in large numbers. There is no logical reason to think this will change. You can make an argument that those specialties aren't competitive, sure. But they're not FM or IM either. Don't act like there is a binary system of FM/GenIM/GenPeds/ vs Derm/Ortho/ENT with nothing in between. That's just false.
 
Dr.Smexy said:
Why 5-10 years? That's such a random and silly number. Just wait until the merger go through completely and watch how many MDs match into previously DO only residencies and the amount of DOs still matching at those places in that year and it should be clear. What's with the 5-10 years nonsense...
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Why 5-10 years? Uh.....let see...maybe because I don't feel like writing a PhD thesis on it? :eyebrow:

Or more appropriately for the level of an ONLINE forum discussion, 5 yr because that's about when the merger will be complete (2020), +5 yrs to see how it pans out AFTER the merger completion.
 
basikfx said:
And do you have any source pointing that it will be otherwise?
It is LOGICAL to think that it won't be just "independent" with the merger completion.
At this point, nothing is for sure.
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The fact that the ACGME is taking over AOA residencies in no way changes the way DOs will be viewed by the NRMP. Also, statistically speaking out is logical to lump together groups whose data is similar hence why DOs are not given their own distinction.

basikfx said:
Why 5-10 years? Uh.....let see...maybe because I don't feel like writing a PhD thesis on it? :eyebrow:

Or more appropriately for the level of an ONLINE forum discussion, 5 yr because that's about when the merger will be complete (2020), +5 yrs to see how it pans out AFTER the merger completion.
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Programs will gain acgme accreditation on a rolling basis and that's why we are already starting to see signals of what will happen. The majority of non-FM programs are foregoing osteopathic recognition and the previously mentioned program replaced all its DOs with US MDs.

It's one thing to make predictions based on current data and trends and another thing to just post what you'd like to see happen based on your feelings and insecurities.

PS using caps makes you seem childish and even more ill informed


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MeatTornado said:
The fact that the ACGME is taking over AOA residencies in no way changes the way DOs will be viewed by the NRMP. Also, statistically speaking out is logical to lump together groups whose data is similar hence why DOs are not given their own distinction.
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Trying to understand what you mean by 'lumping together groups whose data is similar?'
 
Programs will gain acgme accreditation on a rolling basis and that's why we are already starting to see signals of what will happen. The majority of non-FM programs are foregoing osteopathic recognition and the previously mentioned program replaced all its DOs with US MDs.
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Any program that becomes ACGME accredited at this point will almost certainly become dominated by MDs, it's simply a numbers game. This in no way implies that these programs will start favoring one degree over another, and to jump to conclusions at this point is silly.
 
SynapticDoctah said:
DOs just need to step up their game. Get great scores and prove that you can compete with the "mighty" MDs.
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Hey friend, you are right. However, we're not there yet. In general outside of SDN, DO students tend to score lower on the USMLE. You can pick out the data via your or any DO school that release their students' average USMLE scores. Why is that? My guesses would be: 1) DO schools don't prepare you for USMLE, 2) Don't give enough dedicated study time, or 3) DO students are weaker when it comes to taking standardize examination. We do regularly see many high scores here on SDN. Nevertheless, these DO students are the brightest cream of the of crop, but for the average and weaker students, I don't see that they can compete. Until we get rid of the COMLEX and make the USMLE as the standardization exam, I don't see that the average DO's USMLE score can be as competitive as MD's.

On a side note, a few weeks ago, my school clerkship chair gave us a presentation about how beneficial of preceptor-based is and how amazing it is that every student gets to work 1 on 1 directly with an attending. I was the only one in the room laughing. I laughed b/c I didn't buy the horsesh*t that he was selling whereas many other students did. For you and me, we can individually prove that we can compete with our counterparts, but the stigma would stay with us until DOs undergo a major overhaul. Unfortunately, that stigma will hurt us d/t MD >>> DO in PDs' mind.
 
GUH said:
Brand recognition does not explain a former AOA residency not taking any DOs. They already know what DOs are.
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On the website, there is a link to photos and the names of the residents. They probably have a poster of the same in the hospital. The names of the residents with MD after their name looks very nice to the administrators and the public. Eventually, the entire page will probably be filled with MDs. MD is a powerful brand. I am a DO and I know that we are excellent but, in general, the DO degree does not carry the same message to administrators and the public. There have been improvements over the years, but we have a long way to go. More DO schools, more diversity and more integration is part of the solution.
 
JoeUSA said:
On the website, there is a link to photos and the names of the residents. They probably have a poster of the same in the hospital. The names of the residents with MD after their name looks very nice to the administrators and the public. Eventually, the entire page will probably be filled with MDs. MD is a powerful brand. I am a DO and I know that we are excellent but, in general, the DO degree does not carry the same message to administrators and the public. There have been improvements over the years, but we have a long way to go. More DO schools, more diversity and more integration is part of the solution.
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Yeah no. We need the schools that exist to step up their game and cut class sizes, have much stronger rotations across the board, get some research in a number of different fields, and start residency programs for their graduates. This will give DOs better recognition. Opening up more Walmart DO schools doesn't help anyone
 
AnatomyGrey12 said:
Yeah no. We need the schools that exist to step up their game and cut class sizes, have much stronger rotations across the board, get some research in a number of different fields, and start residency programs for their graduates. This will give DOs better recognition. Opening up more Walmart DO schools doesn't help anyone
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Correct. Making more schools is just going to dilute the degree. Having MORE DO's isn't going to show the public that we are competent.
 
kenjixshadow said:
Hey friend, you are right. However, we're not there yet. In general outside of SDN, DO students tend to score lower on the USMLE. You can pick out the data via your or any DO school that release their students' average USMLE scores. Why is that? My guesses would be: 1) DO schools don't prepare you for USMLE, 2) Don't give enough dedicated study time, or 3) DO students are weaker when it comes to taking standardize examination. We do regularly see many high scores here on SDN. Nevertheless, these DO students are the brightest cream of the of crop, but for the average and weaker students, I don't see that they can compete. Until we get rid of the COMLEX and make the USMLE as the standardization exam, I don't see that the average DO's USMLE score can be as competitive as MD's.

On a side note, a few weeks ago, my school clerkship chair gave us a presentation about how beneficial of preceptor-based is and how amazing it is that every student gets to work 1 on 1 directly with an attending. I was the only one in the room laughing. I laughed b/c I didn't buy the horsesh*t that he was selling whereas many other students did. For you and me, we can individually prove that we can compete with our counterparts, but the stigma would stay with us until DOs undergo a major overhaul. Unfortunately, that stigma will hurt us d/t MD >>> DO in PDs' mind.
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Right, but as a whole, admission stats at D.O. schools are lower due to students not being "as strong" academically. It is just a fact. I am saying this "as a whole" because I know there are many students at D.O. schools that were more competitive than M.D. students at some schools (we have students in our incoming D.O. class with MCAT's of 38) or that have special circumstances. However, D.O. schools are a whole are producing graduates with lower USMLE scores than M.D. schools, so obviously you're probably gonna see more M.D.s in programs that are not going to be "protected" anymore. However, if there are D.O. students that do well enough to compete with our M.D. counterparts, I don't think that a D.O. who scores a 240 on their USMLE is going to have a hard time finding a residency now, or after the merger is completed. Like previously stated in other posts, I think the people who may have a harder time are the D.O.s at the "bottom of the barrel" who are NOT close to the level of their M.D. friends (or D.O. friends) and are now competing with them because they aren't saved by an AOA residency in BFE, Missouri.

IMO, D.O. students who have been competitive to land ACGME residencies now aren't going to have a tougher time landing ACGME residencies in the future I don't think. I think it will be different for the D.O.s who are below average and applying to AOA protected residencies though. I could be way off though.
 
MeatTornado said:
The fact that the ACGME is taking over AOA residencies in no way changes the way DOs will be viewed by the NRMP. Also, statistically speaking out is logical to lump together groups whose data is similar hence why DOs are not given their own distinction.
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2014 USMLE Step 1
IMG pass rate: 78%
MD pass rate: 96%
DO pass rate: 93%

Great logic
 
kenjixshadow said:
Hey friend, you are right. However, we're not there yet. In general outside of SDN, DO students tend to score lower on the USMLE. You can pick out the data via your or any DO school that release their students' average USMLE scores. Why is that? My guesses would be: 1) DO schools don't prepare you for USMLE, 2) Don't give enough dedicated study time, or 3) DO students are weaker when it comes to taking standardize examination. We do regularly see many high scores here on SDN. Nevertheless, these DO students are the brightest cream of the of crop, but for the average and weaker students, I don't see that they can compete. Until we get rid of the COMLEX and make the USMLE as the standardization exam, I don't see that the average DO's USMLE score can be as competitive as MD's.

On a side note, a few weeks ago, my school clerkship chair gave us a presentation about how beneficial of preceptor-based is and how amazing it is that every student gets to work 1 on 1 directly with an attending. I was the only one in the room laughing. I laughed b/c I didn't buy the horsesh*t that he was selling whereas many other students did. For you and me, we can individually prove that we can compete with our counterparts, but the stigma would stay with us until DOs undergo a major overhaul. Unfortunately, that stigma will hurt us d/t MD >>> DO in PDs' mind.
Click to expand...
Is there plan to get rid of COMLEX and only have USMLE?
 
hossle12 said:
2014 USMLE Step 1
IMG pass rate: 78%
MD pass rate: 96%
DO pass rate: 93%

Great logic
Click to expand...
As usual with these debates, the truth is somewhere in between. MeatTornado does post a lot of negatively toned comments towards DOs; some are helpful doses of reality and others are pure bias. The stats you linked do show that of the DO's who take USMLE perform similarly to US MD's. So I agree with you that the competitive DO's are similar to US MD's. However, a lot of DO's don't take USMLE. These students are generally the weaker students or ones who lack confidence in their test taking skills. It's easy to imagine if they were forced to take the USMLE our DO passing percentage would decrease. The proliferation of new DO schools exacerbates this problem as well, which is unfortunate.

Overall, it's clear to me that the top level DO students will continue to do well and even break glass ceilings - perhaps to MT's chagrin, perhaps not. However, it's unpredictable why and who will be the ones to break those ceilings. It surely will be a gradual process, and I encourage all DO students to have realistic expectations - apply broadly and to realistic specialties etc. But include reaches. So I wouldn't get worried too much about one general surgery program yet. Maybe one door closes, but two others could open up at other places. You never know.
 
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